The Paw of Oberon 5/4

aka The Puppy In God’s Eye

The Geiger counter pours out a relentless beat as the fallout rains down. The glow in today’s roundup comes from Kameron Hurley, Jo Lindsay Walton, Martin Wisse, Mark Nelson, The Weasel King, Joe Sherry, George R.R. Martin, Vox Day, Jim Butcher, Larry Correia, Lou Antonelli, T. C. McCarthy, Michael Johnston, Alexandra Erin, John Scalzi, Myke Cole, Brad Torgersen, Dave Freer, William Reichard, Michael Z. Williamson and less easily identified others. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Steve Moss and Laura Resnick.)

 

Kameron Hurley on Motherboard

“It’s About Ethics in Revolution” – May 4

Sorva took her seat on the other side of the table and waited. Both men could pass for Caucasian, as if that even bore mentioning, and sat in stuffed leather chairs. They wore extravagant codpieces that matched their suits, their members so cartoonishly large she could see the tips peeking up from the edge of the table. They both wore backwards caps.

It was the Director of Business Development, Marken, a lanky man with a sincere, pudgy face, who spoke first.

“Do you understand that when we choose the very best forward-looking brand messages each year for the Business Development Award ballot we open to our corporate writers, it must adhere to certain standards?”

 

Jo Lindsay Walton

“Quick Hugo thought”  – May 4

Some folk out there seem to be prevaricating between (a) No-Awarding the Puppies selections or (b) No-Awarding every Puppy-dominated category, since it would be totally unfair to give “The Day the World Turned Upside Down” a Hugo by default, and pretty unfair to give e.g. The Goblin Emperor a Hugo with reduced competition.

I’m prevaricating too, and I know exactly what would let me make up my mind: releasing the full nomination data. That way you could see who else could have been on the ballot. Then the procedure’s simple: you construct a virtual ballot from a Puppy-free world (the kind of Stalinist disappearing we SJWs lurve) and make your choice. If your selection from the virtual ballot is on the real ballot as well, you vote for them above No Award; otherwise you No Award the whole category.

But we don’t have the full nomination data, right?

 

Martin Wisse on Wis[s]e Words

“No Award All The Things” – May 4

No Award All the Things!

Sorry Thomas Olde Heuvelt, you may actually get your Hugo this year, but since you’re the only candidate there on merit I felt uneasy voting for you by default. Better luck next year.

 

Mark Nelson on Heroines of Fantasy

“An Ever Changing Landscape” – May 4

Who pays when the real world intrudes on our imaginary landscape? If we start turning against each other and fall to squabbling over increasingly empty honors, how does that make us look? The truth is SFF needs to grow up.  At times I have felt that our genre heading allowed us to adopt a mock superior tone; mostly as a response to being ignored by “real literature” and those who write criticism.  We reveled in being aberrant. We rallied around our awards and celebrated our words in spite of the roaring silence from the wider world. We were a club with giants as members. We were privy to secret knowledge with informed, inclusionary eye-winks. We were the wandering Jews relegated to pulp fiction status, respected by none other than those lucky, lucky few who accepted the words and understood the latent power of the language of ideas. I wonder if the worst thing to ever happen to the genre was its popular success.  The bigger “it” got, the more insistently came the calls for “it” to be taken seriously.  And when film tech caught up with story tech, a marriage of commercial explosion formed. “Money, money changes everything…”  And at present the affect has not been altogether positive. We were once the progressives. Now we look like idiots fighting over cheesecake while the Titanic’s deck begins to tilt. Wow. We have all but rendered the Hugo award useless. WorldCon cannot avoid the taint of controversy. The folks putting on the con deserve better.

 

The Weasel King

“theweaselking.livejournal.com/4673543” – May 4

The Locus Awards: A collection of skiffy fic untainted by ballot-stuffing assholes. Maybe not all to your taste, but reliably “dickface asslimousines did not shit on this ballot and then demand that you to eat it with a smile” Bonus sick burn: Connie Willis, awesome author[1] and perennial Hugo presenter, told the Hugos to fuck off because of the penisnose MRA anuscacti who hijacked their nomination process, and she’s presenting the Locus Awards.

 

Joe Sherry on Adventures in Reading

“Books Read: April 2015” – May 4

Discovery of the Month: If not for all of the fracas over the Hugo Awards, I may never have read Eric Flint’s 1632, which was a fairly enjoyable romp taking a group of twentieth century Americans back into seventeenth century Europe. I already have the next book, Ring of Fire, coming in from the library.

 

George R.R. Martin on Not A Blog

“LOCUS Nominations Announced” – May 4

While this year, admittedly, may be different due to the influence of the slate campaigns, over most of the past couple of decades the Locus Poll has traditionally had significantly more participants than the Hugo nomination process. Looking over the Locus list, one cannot help but think that this is probably what the Hugo ballot would have looked like, if the Puppies had not decided to game the system this year. Is it a better list or a worse one? Opinions may differ. The proof is in the reading.

 

Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Three centuries strong” – May 4

As Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil, we are pleased to declare that Malwyn, Whore-Mistress of the Spiked Six-Whip, has reported that she has completed the initial Branding of the Minions. She has now gone to take a well-deserved vacation in one of the more secluded lava pits in our Realm of Deepest Shadow, where she will no doubt be nursing her aching wrists and filing for overtime as well as worker’s compensation….

“How many of us are there?”

335 as of this morning.

 

 

Larry Correia on Monster Hunter Nation

“Arthur Chu sucks at everything but Jeopardy” – May 4

Many regulars may remember Social Justice Warrior and Salon author Arthur Chu as the dipshit who declared Brad Torgersen’s 20 year interracial marriage and his biracial children as “shields” to hide Brad’s racism. He is one of the morons who blamed the Sad Puppies’ success on GamerGate.

Well, after a day of futile harassment, his team of idiots couldn’t even call in a bomb threat correctly.

 

T. C. McCarthy on YouTube

“Local 16, Bizarre Tweets, and Bomb Threats: #GamerGate an #SadPuppies Supporters Meet in DC #GGinDC” – May 4

 

Lou Antonelli on This Way To Texas

Reach out and insult somebody – May 4

The official announcement of the nominations for the 2015 Hugo awards was made on April 4, so its been a month since then, Gee, time flies when you’re having fun.

One thing I’ve learned in the past month is that, thanks to the wonders of the latest technology and the internet, someone you don’t know and have never met, who may live thousands of miles away, can call you an “asshole” in public.

 

Michael Johnston in a comment on Whatever – May 4

Rachel Swirsky said: “Please, please, please, please stop with the “put down” rhetoric about the puppies, and the “you know what has to be done about rabid animals” and “take the dog out behind the barn.”

It’s vicious and horrible. The puppies and how they’ve acted toward me and others sucks. But good lord, let’s keep threats of violence, however unserious, out of it. Please.”

This, in particular, illustrates the difference between the puppies and their perceived enemies. In every “liberal” space I’m following, any threats or overly abusive rhetoric is met with calls for civility. In the SP/RP spaces, the rhetoric is largely about how we deserve horrible things done to us, which are often described in detail–and the moderators not only allow it, but indulge in it themselves.

 

Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write

“What! Your Sad Puppies Are Evolving” – May 4

This is a significant shift from Day for two reasons.

The first is that it signals what he thinks is most likely to happen. He rode high on the sweeping fantasy vision of himself as a Roman general leading a slavering horde of berserkers across the frozen river to assault the well-fortified position of his enemies (note to self: suggest history lessons for Vox), but he has just enough self-awareness to know that his strategy of lying and repeating the lie could come back and bite him if he tried to claim a sweeping victory where none existed, so he’s starting the spin now.

The second is that—as mentioned before—the endgame he now endorses is something the Sad Puppies have claimed to have wanted as their ultimate endgame.

 

Season of the Red Wolf

“A Pox on both their Houses: Sad Puppies, Vox Day, Social Justice Warriors, the Hugos circus and the irrelevancy of a dying genre” – May 4

As with Torgersen, Correia can’t be bothered with addressing what Vox Day actually writes about blacks (the problem there – in the linked blog entry – is not the silly and ridiculous debate itself that Vox Day quotes from, it’s Vox Day’s own commentary on African-Americans in response to that debate that is eyebrow raising) and women alone. Of course as soon as one does acknowledged what Vox Day actually writes about blacks and women (never mind gays), then the only way to defend those indefensible prejudices, is by sinking into prejudice itself. Correia, like Torgersen, thus avoids that trap (defending the actual indefensible remarks/comments of Vox Day’s) by not ever quoting Vox Day’s most egregious commentary in this regard, and getting to grips with what he actually says. Correia, as with Torgersen, just doesn’t go anywhere near what Vox Day actually writes about blacks, women and gays for that matter. The easier to whitewash why Vox Day is considered persona non grata, namely for very good reasons. Yes it’s all so hypocritical, given the genre Left’s multiple prejudices (including of course their anti-Semitism that doesn’t bother anybody really, least of all genre Jewry) but this also misses the point.

 

John Scalzi on Whatever

“I’d Rather Like Men Than To Be a Sad Puppy” – May 4

 

Myke Cole

“An open letter to Chief Warrant Officer Brad R. Torgersen” – May 4

Chief War­rant Officer Torgersen,

As you are no doubt aware, The Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell Repeal Act of 2010 removed bar­riers to homo­sexual mem­bers in the armed ser­vices, who may now serve openly and as equals.

You have long held the posi­tion that homo­sex­u­ality is immoral behavior, and most recently made den­i­grating jokes regarding the ori­en­ta­tion aimed at Mr. John Scalzi.

Your moral posi­tions are your own, and I will not ques­tion them. How­ever, I will remind you that you are a mil­i­tary officer and charged with the lead­er­ship of men and women of *all* walks of life, reli­gions, creeds, sexual ori­en­ta­tions, socio-cultural back­grounds and eth­nic­i­ties. Every single one of these people has the right to believe that you will faith­fully dis­charge your duties as an officer, not spend their lives care­lessly, not make them endure unnec­es­sary hard­ship, that you will care for them with com­pas­sion and ded­i­ca­tion. On or off duty, you are *always* an officer.

Your repeated state­ments of your thoughts on homo­sex­u­ality in public forums create the very rea­son­able appre­hen­sion among homo­sexual mem­bers of the ser­vice that you hold them in con­tempt and will not lead them to the utmost of your ability, will not look to their needs and con­cerns, and may place them at undue risk. That this is surely not your inten­tion is irrelevant.

Fur­ther, your pub­li­cally den­i­grating state­ments regarding Mr. Scalzi are base, undig­ni­fied and show ques­tion­able judg­ment. You, Chief War­rant Officer Torg­ersen, are an officer, but no gen­tleman. Your posi­tions are incon­sis­tent with the values of the United States mil­i­tary, and its com­mit­ment to being a ser­vice that belongs to ALL Americans.

Our nation deserves better.

Respect­fully,

Myke Cole

 

Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Never retreat, never apologize” – May 4

Does no one listen or learn? Never, EVER apologize to SJWs! Case in point: “The apology was worse than the ini­tial attempted slur — it rein­forced the fact that Torg­ersen thinks calling someone gay is a slur.” I repeat. NEVER APOLOGIZE TO SJWs. They will see it as fear, take the apology, and use it as a club with which to beat you. Never back down to them, never retreat, never apologize.Notice that this was all posted AFTER Torgersen apologized to Scalzi.

 

Brad R. Torgersen

“Keyboard rage” – May 4

Today, I am told Myke Cole is on about me. Since Myke doesn’t really know me from Adam, I have to shrug and take whatever he said with a grain of salt. But then, most people who’ve been on about me lately — because of Sad Puppies 3 — don’t know me, either. I may take it personally if a friend, a family member, or a respected senior I admire, has hard words for me. But total strangers spewing hard words?

Well, total strangers may have an opportunity to reconsider at a later point. Especially if they meet me face-to-face.

 

Cirsova

“Hugo Awards Best Fan Writer Category” – May 4

So, in this post, I will try to define what “Fan Writer” means and use it to justify my support of Jeffro Johnson in this year’s Best Fan Writer category.

On the face of it, a Fan Writer is just that. A fan who writes. They are a fan of something in the realm of fantasy and science fiction, and they write about fantasy and science fiction from the perspective of someone who is a fan to an audience of fellow or potential fans. A good fanwriter is like an evangelical minister of fantasy and science fiction; they give sermons to the believers to help them better understand the texts they know and love and they take the good word to those who have not heard it. You’ve been missing something in your life, and you don’t quite know what it is, but I think I can help you; here’s this story by Lord Dunsany!

 

Dave Freer on Mad Genius Club

“Research, Hard-SF, stats and passing small elephants” – May 4

John Scalzi kindly provided us via his friend Jason Sanford a near text-book perfect example of GIGO. “Recently author John Ringo (in a Facebook post previously available to the public but since made private) asserted that every science fiction house has seen a continuous drop in sales since the 1970s — with the exception of Baen (his publisher), which has only seen an increase across the board. This argument was refuted by author Jason Sanford, who mined through the last couple of years of bestseller lists (Locus lists specifically, which generate data by polling SF/F specialty bookstores) and noted that out of 25 available bestselling slots across several formats in every monthly edition of Locus magazine, Baen captures either one or none of the slots every month — therefore the argument that Baen is at the top of the sales heap is not borne out by the actual, verifiable bestseller data.” As I said: first you need to understand what you’re sampling. For example, if you set up a pollster at a Democratic convention, at 10 pm, in a site just between the bar and the entry to the Men’s urinals… even if he asks every person passing him on the way in, you’re not going to get a very good analysis of what Americans think of a subject. Or what women think of the subject. What you will get is middling bad sample of what mildly pissed male Democratic Party conference attendees think. Middling bad, because many of the passers will be hurry to go and pass some water first. It’s vital to understand what you’re sampling – or what you’re not. Let’s just deconstruct the one above. In theory Sanford was attempting to statistically prove John Ringo’s assertion wrong. What he proved was nothing of the kind (Ringo may be right or wrong, but Sanford failed completely). What he proved was that on the Locus bestseller list, (the equivalent of the Democratic Party convention and the route between the bar and the gentleman’s convenience) that Baen was not popular. That is verifiable. The rest is wishful thinking, which may be true or false. Firstly ‘Bestseller’ does not equal sales numbers. A long tail – which Baen does demonstrably have, can outsell ‘bestseller’ and five solid sellers outsell one bestseller and four duds. Secondly, independent bookstores who self-select by accepting polling, selected by a pollster (Locus) with a well-established bias are not remotely representative of book sales in general, or representative of the choices book buyers have. Thirdly, it is perfectly possible to ‘capture’ no bestseller slots at all, even in a worthwhile sample (which Locus polling isn’t) and STILL be the one house that is actually growing. It depends what you’re growing from – which of course this does not measure and cannot.

Short of actual book sales numbers, and data on advances – which we’ll never see, staffing is probably the best clue. I know several authors at other houses whose editors have left, and quite a lot of other staff at publishers who’ve been let go. Over the last few years, the number of signatures on my Baen Christmas card have gone up year on year.

 

William Reichard

“Silent Punning (aka ‘The Hijacker’s Guide to the Galaxy’”) – May 4

Having run through quite a few sci-fi themed puns regarding the Hugo Award debacle, the community is apparently moving on to Westerns (e.g., “A Fistful of Puppies“).

I have to say, this is my favorite part of online warfare–when the rest of the community acknowledges the madness of it all and just starts having fun again. Because there should be some kind of silver lining in this.

 

Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand

Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand

syberious _ny on “Ebay: Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand”

Here’s the scoop…I designed this holster (and its companion holster in Left Hand configuration) because of the whole Sad Puppy / Hugo Award kerfuffle. My original thought was to perhaps raffle them off to raise money for a veterans organization. But, online raffles in the state of Tennessee (where I live and have my business) are tightly regulated, and it would have cost more to run a raffle than what the raffle could potentially bring in.

So, I’m listing these here on FleaBay, with the proceeds going directly to help a friend who is a veteran, who has run into some heavy financial problems with squatters in her rental home. On her GoFundMe page, she’s committed to only using the cash that she needs, and anything extra will be donated to a veterans organization of her choosing.

679 thoughts on “The Paw of Oberon 5/4

  1. Beale: “The problem isn’t that you love, it’s WHAT you love. The normal SF reader thinks you’re batshit crazy. We don’t doubt that you love to eat shit, the problem is that YOU’RE EATING SHIT. No amount of shit-positivity is going to convince anyone that it tastes good.

    So, is Dune shit? What about A Fire Upon the Deep? Does Addison spring up with some suspiciously laden Tupperware at the end of The Goblin Emperor? What about Three-Body Problem? I’ve heard you liked the book. Was it a little nutty? I need to know, this is important.

  2. Rick Moen, not really important but it is puzzling me–where do you Pentecost out of the story? The first Sunday after the Full Moon after the Vernal Equinox is Easter, I believe; Pentecost is 50 days after that . . . I see the “speaking in tongues” reference in the plot but the dating has me confused. Did I miss something?

  3. Oops, just saw Gump’s comment above–so apparently I didn’t miss a Pentecost dating? Good to know.

  4. Neutrals from KotakuinAction. Sure. Keep deluding yourself.

    No, no, no. He’s not delusional. He doesn’t really believe that KotakuinAction is actually neutral. Ha ha! That would be silly!

    He’s lying using rhetoric. He told everyone that he does it. Just pay attention: If something he writes or says is in deep and obvious conflict with objective reality, it’s rhetoric.

  5. Peace Is My Middle Name As for the rest of your post, I am not sure who you are addressing but it is not me. I said exactly none of those things nor implied them.

    You are absolutely correct, mea culpa, please ignore everything after the second para, the rest was not directed at you personally. I transitioned from ‘you personal’ to ‘you collective’ without making that apparent, sloppy writing.

    rcade You sure got a lot of resentment out of a simple corrective statement that fandom has a sense of humor.

    Youi know what rcade, I agree with you, (wait, is that the sound of hell freezing over) what I wrote in response to Peace after para 2 does read like resentment, if directed solely at the comment, which is why I tried to clarify in my response here.

    i hold no actual resentment by the way; what would i be resentful about?

    re your other statements:

    “People who read and love SF/F are not the “target market” for fandom. They’re the target market for SF/F”. Umm, so where would the new fans come from, if not from those who read and love SF/F? Authors have to write and sell books for a fandom to exist and grow.

    “The experience you’re having here relates to showing up among a long-existing group with a chip on your shoulder. Your love of SF/F doesn’t give you a free pass for acting like that”. Well, when the Committee for Tolerance of Other Viewpoints is looking for a new president, you got my vote rcade.

  6. @CSAFarmer:

    That makes a lot more sense in retrospect. Thanks.

  7. “Well, when the Committee for Tolerance of Other Viewpoints is looking for a new president, you got my vote rcade.”

    You were doing well with your comment until you fell back into resentment. Reading Correia’s blog did quite a number on you. So many grievances!

    Want to be part of fandom? Great. Welcome. Vote in the Hugos as an individual in good faith. Go to Worldcon, if you can afford the time and expense. Support the awards and reject the rhetoric of people who want to burn them down.

  8. OK, public service announcement (part of my on-going charitable contribution to the discussion).

    You all get that Mr. Beale is a sh*t disturber, right? That’s not a pejorative term by the way, speaking as an award-winning organic farmer, sometimes the sh*t needs to be disturbed.

    Some of the smartest, most effective people I’ve worked with, in private, public, and charitable organizations, have been sh*t disturbers par excellence.

    The cleverest thing I ever did when I stepped down as president of one such organization, was to get the biggest troublemaker we had appointed in my place. I spent a lot of time politicking (i.e. I bought the beer) with the other executives to persuade them they were better off working with him, than attempting damage control after the fact.

    Such people are often uncomfortable to be around, especlally if you are part of the current clique-in-charge, but by God they are effective.

    So I suspect, one way or another, things are gonna get shook up, and I don’t mean just the Hugos. The Powers that Be in SF fandom might want to consider options for a negotiated peace.

  9. I am almost afraid to ask, but what do you mean by “a negotiated peace”?

  10. CSAfarmer – ‘I spent a lot of time politicking (i.e. I bought the beer) with the other executives to persuade them they were better off working with him, than attempting damage control after the fact.’

    Would you have done the same if that employee stated to you that he didn’t care about the company, its growth or history and told you that their interest was burning the company to the ground so that they could build a new company on top of it?

    While VD obviously has love and respect for the genre itself he doesn’t for the Worldcon or the award. There’s no collaborating with that.

  11. For that matter, what “Powers that Be”?

    Only the Puppies think there is … Well, any sort of organized cabal, conspiracy, or in-group that they *could* conceivably negotiate with.

    But there isn’t.

    Who on earth would “negotiate” this “peace” and on whose behalf?

  12. I remember when, in Illinois, devotees of Lyndon LaRouche maneuvered to win primary elections for some spots on the Democratic Party slate. This was a great embarrassment to all the other Democrats involved (including the guy who was actually running for governor), but they did not respond by making “a negotiated peace” with the guys who think that the Queen of England is a drug smuggler.

  13. Matt Y Would you have done the same if that employee stated to you that he didn’t care about the company, its growth or history and told you that their interest was burning the company to the ground so that they could build a new company on top of it?

    While VD obviously has love and respect for the genre itself he doesn’t for the Worldcon or the award.

    That’s a great question, that is precisely WHY I wanted him on-board. My guy detested the organization and the bureaucracy, loved the cause, he rampaged around doing stuff that boomeranged back on us, in short the proverbial loose cannon.

    We had no stick to threaten him with (you can’t fire a volunteer who is going to keep doing his thing, with or without you). The only way I could see to get that energy in harness was to apply a little organiztional jiu jitsu and put him in charge. I had just as big a task persuading him to take the job. Fortunately he had nothing against me personally, so was open to a little more 6-pack diplomacy.

    Once he had actual authority, whatever he did became the ‘official position’ of the organization. Despite himself, this had a moderating effect. He now cared about the organization because it reflected on him i.e. he had a stake. And he was about 11 times more effective as president than I ever was. He got a lot of sh*t done.

    I don’t know how that translates into a course of action for a rapprochement with the VD and the Puppies, but it seems the current head-butting will not get you there.

  14. @Mary Frances and @Gump: Well, it says ‘The Feast of Pentecost’ directly underneath the story’s title, so I took that as establishing the time. I see what you’re talking about, though, 3/4 of the way through:

    Owl said, “It is the first Sunday after the full moon following the equinox of March. Alas! The skies will never be open to me again!”

    And my calendar notes in http://linuxmafia.com/bale/holidays say Western Church Easter is indeed ‘first Sunday on or following the spring Equinox after the full moon’. Guess what? I’m an ignorant heathen and didn’t actually twig to Wright having made Owl say ‘It’s Easter’. Anyway, what was that bit about The Feast of Pentecost at the top, then? Was there passage of 49 days at some point during the story?

    Rick Moen
    rick@linuxmafia.com

  15. I don’t know how that translates into a course of action for a rapprochement with the VD and the Puppies, but it seems the current head-butting will not get you there.

    Given that their rationales for action are mostly lacking in any kind of coherence or sound basis, there isn’t really ground for rapprochement. Fandom so hated Correia that it nominated him for one of its highest awards – the Campbell for best new writer. It so hated Torgersen that it nominated him for a Campbell and Hugo the next year. Their entire campaign (based upon what they have said) is built at least partially on the false premise that the fact that they didn’t win means they were hated.

    They have alleged a “social justice conspiracy” that isn’t there. They have said conservative writers are shut out of awards, which, given the list of nominees over the last several years is manifestly not true. And so on.

    What won’t work is what the Puppies are doing now. Even if they win six Hugos each, or even destroy the Hugo Awards, they won’t ever get what they want. Fans will simply move to other awards and recognize those as being the most prestigious.

  16. @CSAfarmer: Are you truly surprised at the chorus of people telling you there’s no ‘Powers That Be in SF fandom’? Those people are correct, you know.

    My wife Deirdre told me that one of the industry’s editors recently commented, probably thinking of misconceptions like yours (and I’ll be paraphrasing, here), that the closest thing to a primary decision-maker in SFF is Jim Killen, the main SFF genre book buyer for the Barnes & Noble bookselling chain. It sure ain’t Puppy hate objects like some acquisition editor for Tor, who is just a guy or gall trying to make money and lives his or her life surrounded by piles of manuscripts and attending meetings, and wondering how rents in the wilds of Queens got that high.

    And WSFS? Man, you want to find the Powers That Be in WSFS? Well, you have the SMOFs who manoeuvre against each other like Renaissance Italian nobles for the privilege of working their arses off to volunteer-staff a Worldcon each year and possibly bankrupt themselves personally. You have the concom (convention committee) of each year’s seated Worldcon, that has no institutional connection whatsoever with the concom of the prior or subsequent year’s Worldcon. And then you have us hundreds of raving loons (comprising many SMOFs and many connected fans who desperately need a life) willing to not only pay money and take a week out of our lives to attend a Worldcon but also waste a lot of that week attending the Business Meetings. And then you have the thousands of voting WSFS members, who famously agree on almost nothing, ever. And surrounding that is larger fandom, who can’t agree on anything, either. And surrounding that is everyone who reads SFF, who’ve by and large never heard of Puppydom and probably never will.

    Somewhere in there, you hope to find someone to make ‘a negotiated peace’ with? Good luck with that. How many of them do you want to buy? I’m sure you can get them in six-packs. With fruit baskets. And then, maybe after you’ve bought a few hundred with anyone and everyone, you’ll maybe realise that there are no ‘Powers That Be in SF fandom’

    That clearer?

    Rick Moen
    rick@linuxmafia.com

  17. @Mary Frances: My understanding that the ’50 days’ that you get by translating to English the koine Greek name ‘pentekoste’ = fifty is sort of a fencepost error: It’s 50 if you count from Easter Sunday inclusive to the 7th Sunday after, but that’s actually 49 days apart.

  18. Counting days in the period is always inclusive of endpoints — that’s why Easter is “on the third day” from Friday.

    The book out of which the story is taken seems to assign each story to a particular festival or season. Why Wright decided to specify that his Pentecost-themed story (animals with gifts of tongues) should occur on Easter is beyond me. Well, actually, I bet I know: there are some very old calendrical beliefs that the end of the world will occur on the same date (by the Jewish Calendar) as its creation, and that that day is 14 Nisan, so if Wright is writing an immediately post-last-judgement story he sets it on Easter. (I’m going by memory here: source is Talley, The Origins of the Liturgical Year.)

  19. @CSAfarmer: Are you truly surprised at the chorus of people telling you there’s no ‘Powers That Be in SF fandom’? Those people are correct, you know.

    Don’t you get it, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day if the SJW-leftist conspiracy actually exists or not, you are fighting a perception. You keep ‘proving’ over and over that its not real; how many puppies have you convinced? Do you think more proof will change that? If you keep endlessly defining the problem, rather than seeking a solution acceptable to all, it’s gonna be messy.

    Since you don’t like the term TPTB, how about influencers, opinion-makers, maybe the SMOFs can suspend the Machiavellian maneuvering long enough to consider a common problem, maybe the concom should think a little more outside the box than just ‘stop them Puppies’.

    Every group has these people, who set the tone and direction of debate; doesn’t need a cabal or conspiracy for that to be true. Look what Mike Glyer has done here to bring a little civility to the fracas. Everybody, two legs or four, seems to have a lot of respect for Mr. Glyer, he’s obviously got the street cred, and he’s fair.

    Do you want to be right, or do you want to find a way to move forward? You don’t have to admit to any conspiracy to seek common ground. Does China admit to human rights abuses before negotiating treaties? Do other countries go along to get a deal? And no, I’m not trying to make you China in this scenario, it’s just a way of pointing out that radically different ideologies can find a way to co-exist.

  20. @Rick Moen:

    My priest explained in a homily a few weeks ago that it’s definitely counting Pascha as part of the 50 days. They call the services for this period the Pentecostarion.

    I either totally missed the reference to Pentecost before, or let the reference to the Equinox push it out of my mind. I have no clue how a mistake like that got through. The Equinox/Full Moon/Sunday rule for Pascha/Easter has been in place since at least the Council of Nicea.

  21. @CSAfarmer: “Don’t you get it, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day if the SJW-leftist conspiracy actually exists or not, you are fighting a perception.”

    So your solution is to, what, create a conspiracy to play into the belief that there IS a conspiracy, so the nonexistent conspiracy can be publicly destroyed – and in the process, hope none of the Puppies twig to it all being a vast spectacle put on by a small, conspiratorial group to trick them?

    Let us perhaps consider a different set of conspiracy theorists. Suppose you are confronted with a group of people who claim the moon landings were all faked. You know it’s not true, you’ve got the evidence on your side, but they turn all of your answers to their “gotcha!” allegations into rhetorical “evidence” that the conspiracy was even bigger than they thought.

    How would you convince those people either that the moon landings happened or that they should at least stop frothing about the subject and leave the “deluded lunar believers” alone?

  22. Mike,

    I think you need to include the Rev Bob’s Moon Landing comparison above in your next round up.

    {Slow form handclap} Rev Bob, drop the microphone, you have won the argiment. Congratulations!

  23. @CSAfarmer: Don’t you get it, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day if the SJW-leftist conspiracy actually exists or not, you are fighting a perception.

    Strictly speaking, I’m not actually fighting anything. I’m actually just a Worldcon-goer, Hugo voter, and extremely minor SMOF.

    I’m also a Scandinavian-ethnic, and, while essentialism about ethnicity is an easy way to go wrong in a hurry and you can speak only of broad tendencies, one of ‘ours’ (among Scandihoovians) is ‘Truth first.’ You don’t shade the truth if you can manage it (i.e., you try to not deliberately do so). Opinions if you want, but truth-as-you-see-it first. And I was simply doing my level best to describe the relevant truth-as-I-see-it, because of a stubborn and arrogant conviction that doing so is a good thing in itself.

    You might be trying to say that I should be trying to fight a perception. If so, what’s in that for me? I am just a Worldcon-goer, voter, and decidedly minor SMOF. No matter how this plays out, I get Worldcons. If the Hugo Awards become a laughingstock for a few years, that’s too bad, but there are panels to attend and evening parties. Some even with lingonberry concentrate in the vodka. ;->

    I don’t see that I have a particular personal interest in convincing anyone of much at all. If the good ol’ boy Puppy posse insist they want to be in DC in August 2017, I can make my reservations there, too. I’ll just make sure to bring the summer-weight cotton clothing (because DC in August).

    I’m not seeking to ‘define the problem’, because I actually don’t have a ‘problem’; I’m just dealing with reality the way I find it. Sort of Taoist, that way.

    Mass-voting is a problem in a certain way, though not a personal one. My working hypothesis is that amending the nominations process to something better than first-past-the-post will adequately fix the nominations-exploit vulnerability for 2017 and after. 2016 may be a horrible mess, but giving nominees an incentive to disavow mass-voting campaigns will help (by which I mean making clear in 2015 that many voters will No Award nominees who go along with such campaigns).

    how about influencers, opinion-makers, maybe the SMOFs can suspend the Machiavellian maneuvering long enough to consider a common problem

    Look, I believe I’ve given you an accurate picture of how extremely fractured everything is. You want an ‘influencer’, I suppose you could buy Jim Killen (of B&N) lunch and tell him what you think, but if you aren’t a publisher, I’m not sure he’s going to want to hear you.

    There’s no central anything. It’s pretty close to a big family anarchy that assembles for a tribal gathering every autumn.

    Every group has these people, who set the tone and direction of debate

    Well, in SFF, we have all of fandom, all of them attempting to set the tone and direction of debate. You want a megaphone, go buy one and be prepared to compete with the other guys with megaphones, who will all be arguing with you (and with each other, and sometimes with themselves).

    Did you ever read Eric Frank Russell’s short story ‘And Then There Were None’? SFF fandom is not quite the planet of the Gands, but it’s close. There’s no Clear Channel Communications, no Rupert Murdoch.

    Look what Mike Glyer has done here to bring a little civility to the fracas.

    And Mike is respected because he doesn’t try to herd the cats (except to occasionally shoo them away from the tuna casserole). And for running an excellent fanzine. And for chairing L.A.con III.

    Do you want to be right, or do you want to find a way to move forward?

    I’m arrogant, so I insist on trying to tell the truth as best I know it.

    We Scandihoovians are a colossal pain in the tuchis (if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor).

    You don’t have to admit to any conspiracy to seek common ground.

    What do you have in mind? Remember, I’m a Worldcon-goer, voter, and extremely minor SMOF. I’m getting my Worldcons, my voting, and my ability to throw my time away in volunteer work already. What am I being offered?

    If you are suggesting ‘You’ll see what you vote for win’, I will note that what I vote for almost never wins already.

    I also have a deplorably low sense of humour, and think fandom’s having a good time talking about Puppydom. It’d be a shame to lose the diversion, but I expect this level of fervour won’t last more than a few years. Fandom will still be there when Puppydom goes off to find some other fire hydrant.

  24. Rev. Bob How would you convince those people either that the moon landings happened or that they should at least stop frothing about the subject and leave the “deluded lunar believers” alone?

    You ever been in a relationship? Are all disputes in relationships based on objectively-real phenomena? Did you ever fix a dispute in a relationship by treating the other party’s concerns with disdain? Would get me Gibbs’ed by my SO.

    You (collective) are in a toxic relationship with the Puppies. Lots of disdain has been expressed on both sides. As things stand, they aren’t going to stop ‘frothing’, or leave you alone. You have guaranteed that by your responses up until now.

    If I was the actual Lord SMOF (I know, i know) , i would buy Mr. Beale and Mr. Correia a plane ticket to Spokane, and make sure they had a seat at the business meeting to discuss this like people who actually wanted to solve the problem.

  25. @CSAFarmer: The most prominent fallacy in your argument is that “you (collective)” and “the Puppies” are corporate bodies capable of negotiating with one another. I, as an individual, might come to some rapproachement with VD, but that wouldn’t make the other eight thousand Worldcon members change their votes, and it wouldn’t prevent VD’s followers from denouncing him as a sellout and transferring their allegiance to someone else.

    The WSFS business meetings are open to every attending member of Worldcon; you don’t need to be a SMOF, or have some kind of special license from a SMOF, to present a proposal to that meeting, debate, or vote.

  26. Seth: In my role as Emergency Holographic Standlee: Proposals to the WSFS Business Meeting can also be submitted in advance by supporting members. They merely have no control over what demented changes the assembly might choose to make to their motions.

  27. @CSAfarmer: “You ever been in a relationship? Are all disputes in relationships based on objectively-real phenomena? Did you ever fix a dispute in a relationship by treating the other party’s concerns with disdain?”

    And yet, the Puppies expect doing exactly that to work for them.

    Y’see, what you overlook is that Brad and Larry are part of fandom. They attended Worldcon in 2011, before any of this started, and their reports at the time indicated that they had a great time. (Actual quote: “it was definitely the best first WorldCon EVAAAARRRRR for me.”)

    So they had seats at the table. Instead of using them to air their concerns like civilized people, they elected to “treat the other party’s concerns with disdain” and try to go all Mad Max on the place. They have acted in bad faith, and have given no reason to expect that they will suddenly begin to do otherwise.

    Going to your relationship analogy, if your wife said she was happy but you kept coming home to find her in bed with other men, would you believe her when she said she was going to be faithful after that? How long would it take you to conclude that maybe she’s not being completely honest with that promise? Would you consider “I’ll only sleep with ONE strange man per week instead of TWO” a viable compromise position?

    Thus, to put it in terms mil-SF readers might understand better, “we do not negotiate with terrorists.” They had – and, really, still do have – their chance to work within the system, and giving in to their demands now will only encourage others to try the same tactics in the future.

  28. “there are no ‘Powers That Be in SF fandom’”

    BNF 5XL, BNF 5XL, come to the courtesy desk please… ;^)

  29. Nigel: ‘Mr. Beale divides the world into two parts: “facts” and “rhetoric”.’

    As a response to being caught playing fast and loose with the truth. You see, he’s not *actually* being dishonest, he’s simply making distinctions in types of language we’re not smart enough to understand. Aristotle!

  30. Rick Moen There’s no central anything. It’s pretty close to a big family anarchy that assembles for a tribal gathering every autumn.

    “I’m not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat”.

    OK, I’m guilty of trying to consult without adequate facts, a failure of ego. Looks like a showdown coming between Sun Tzu and Gandhi (to follow the EFR reference). I will MYOB on the topic of fixes and observe the show.

  31. Rick ” They merely have no control over what demented changes the assembly might choose to make to their motions.”

    That’s often true even if you ARE at the Business Meeting. It’s a direct democracy, and majority rules. Often in ways not desired by proposal submitters.

    That said, supporting members should feel just as free to make proposals as attending members.

  32. @CSAfarmer: If it’ll help, I might be getting an assigned job as Puppy Minion. No joke! I heard it on the Internet.

    There’s a bunch of pseudonymous wack jobs over on LJ (/me waves to Daveon) declaring me a Ted Beale defender and ‘in the Beale camp’ (news to File770 readers), antifeminist (news to the N.O.W.), anti-intellectual (news to Princeton U.’s alumni office). And apparently because I think PZ Myers is an embarrassing loudmouth git when he attempts to talk about religion and ethics (though fine when he sticks to his competences in evolutionary biology), I am a ‘truly terrible person’.

    Until they got to ‘truly terrible person’, there was some danger of my feelings being hurt, but that perked me right up.

    If someone could arrange for me to be declared a fundamentalist (news to everyone who knows me as unreligious from birth), too, that would make my day. That used to be the only fun part of when crusading atheists interrupted the featured speakers at Bay Area Skeptics meetings, the bit where they called me as BAS Chair a ‘fundamentalist’ for requiring them to sit down and shut up.

    Anyway, you might be able to get me assigned as interpreter between pseudonymous LJ lunatics and Theo. Wouldn’t do a damned thing about actual Worldcon fandom and Puppyhood, but it’s already been explained why your ‘negotiate’ notion founders on the lack of any centrality.

    Rick Moen
    rick@linuxmaifa.com

  33. @Rick Moen: “If someone could arrange for me to be declared a fundamentalist”

    You called? 😀

  34. @Rick Moen:

    There’s a bunch of pseudonymous wack jobs over on LJ (/me waves to Daveon) declaring me a Ted Beale defender and ‘in the Beale camp’ (news to File770 readers), antifeminist (news to the N.O.W.), anti-intellectual (news to Princeton U.’s alumni office). And apparently because I think PZ Myers is an embarrassing loudmouth git when he attempts to talk about religion and ethics (though fine when he sticks to his competences in evolutionary biology), I am a ‘truly terrible person’.

    Eh.

    While I don’t agree that you’re a “truly terrible person”, I am kinda bothered by the fact that you’re more diligent and charitable when discussing what Vox Day writes than you are when basically dismissing what PZ writes.

    I have something of a rant simmering on how it’s still reasonable to conclude that Vox Day approves of violence towards women (or more specifically, feminist women), despite the point (which you emphasized) that that’s not exactly what he wrote, but it’s long and kinda off-topic.

  35. Brian “I like the system the way it is and I hope it can right itself.”

    Are you going to advocate to all that people stop should stop using slates then? Don’t forget that any anti-slate measure would work just as well on the “secret TOR slates” just as well as the Puppy ones. Shouldn’t we be looking at ways to make the nominating process fairer and more robust no matter what people try to do subvert it?

    And in your later comment to Soon Lee, I find the idea that Hugo voters being unwilling to read outside their comfort zone to be highly arrogant and presumptuous. I think everyone in this conversation has shown an openness to read and judge all books that come their way.

  36. Oops, I had two file770 pages open at the same time and that last was in the wrong thread. Please disregard.

    Sorry.

  37. @Owlmirror: In the the particular matter that prompted this (my showing that the ‘throwing acid in feminists faces’ thing keeps being misrepresented for failure to bother reading Beale’s entire two sentence paragraph correctly, I had really nothing to say about PZ Myers as such.

    As it happens, I think PZ Myers has an excellent record as an evolutionary biologist. My annoyance with him relates to the many occasions when he has gone around hurling vague and sloppy rhetoric on other matters about which he not only typically knows very little but in some instances achieves a rare minus score, knowing things that aren’t so. This includes in particular his long and windy campaign to prove to the Internet that the skeptic movement (in which I was for many years the Chair of Bay Area Skeptics) was required by ‘rationality’ and various other bits of handwavium to join his abrasive New Atheism-style Internet complaining campaign about anything and everything religious.

    I was delighted when he finally declared himself ‘not a skeptic’, which he pronounced in tones of grave and comprehensive disapproval, but I found excellent news, appreciating his newfound distance both as a skeptic and as a non-religious person unappreciative of being lumped in with the likes of him.

    It’s entirely possible that your assertion about Mr Beale is correct. I didn’t deal in vague generalities, but rather in a specific, oft-repeated assertion, is categorically and very obviously incorrect. Vague handwaves are in general very much not my cuppa.

    And yes, when people go around claiming I’ve taken some vague advocacy position when I’ve merely pointed out something very specific — that the reader can see for him/herself, then I do tend to either mock those people, or at my option just ignore them completely. Because I really don’t have time for Internet ideologues of any description, most particularly (but not exclusively) those going around attempting cut-rate character assassination from behind Internet pseudonyms.

    Rick Moen
    rick@linuxmafia.com

  38. “I have something of a rant simmering on how it’s still reasonable to conclude that Vox Day approves of violence towards women (or more specifically, feminist women), despite the point (which you emphasized) that that’s not exactly what he wrote, but it’s long and kinda off-topic.”

    Except it is not. I do not approve of initiating violence period. Not towards women, not towards feminist women, not towards anyone.

    Is that insufficiently clear?

    If you think I am lying, feel free to call me out. Go ahead and provide proof of it if you think you have it. But don’t think you can slither around claiming your deductions and insinuations are reasonable when you have a very clear and unambiguous statement directly addressing the topic in front of you.

    The Taliban has been fighting to defend their way of life in their own tribal lands for 36 years. They have killed hundreds of thousands of people, from elite Spetsnaz soldiers to unarmed young women. It is quite clear that they will kill anyone who threatens it, and considering how they have survived two invasions and occupations by two superpowers, their ruthlessness is not only rational, but understandable and even, from a strategic perspective, admirable. Less determined forces would have collapsed and surrendered years ago.

    Does that mean I support them? Absolutely not. But unlike PZ Myers and many people who consider them nothing more than a rhetorical device, I take them seriously, for the obvious reason that anyone who can fight two numerically and technologically superior enemies to a standstill had damn well better be taken seriously. Fortunately, unlike ISIS, the Taliban appears to wish little more than to be left alone in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Here is the question for you. Suppose a young girl in your country adopted a foreign ideology, was employed by two foreign spy agencies, met in secret with a top enemy official and was successfully convincing tens of thousands of people in your country that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off rooftops. Hundreds of homosexuals had already been killed in this way thanks to her public calls for such executions. Would you support her shooting or would you oppose it?

    Even if you would oppose it, isn’t it easier to see the act as being an entirely rational one when framed in that context? I see the shooting of Malala Yousafzai as being little different than the English burning of Joan of Arc or the UK hanging William Joyce. It was an act of war, not a random and irrational act of violence.

    Some of you may not be aware that Yousafzai was no “innocent schoolgirl”, she was the daughter of a pro-Western activist, had been a paid propagandist for the BBC and other Western organizations for four years, and had even met with Richard Holbrooke before the “irrational” Taliban finally decided to kill her. Notice also that the Taliban have left her alone now that she’s no longer living in Pakistan.

  39. Tintinaus: Regardless of what Dave Freer thinks of me–a writer I barely know who misquotes me at every turn and who, when we met, replied monosyllabically to my friendly overtures while looking like he wanted nothing more than for me to leave, only to go online four years later and claim to know a whole lot about my thoughts and feelings–it makes me sad (AS SAD AS A PUPPY) to hear my SF work once again dismissed as “gussied up” fantasy.

    Essentially nothing SFnal I write gets classified as SF. It can take place on other planets, concern itself with science and technology, even have ray guns, and it somehow always gets dismissed with a wave of the hand and an assurance that it’s “just” fantasy. I can think of a lot of science fiction authors with much less hard science than I’ve used in my stories who are never questioned as to which side of the genre they write on. I am genuinely curious whether it’s because I use that pretty language, that I’ve written more fantasy than SF–or maybe my science really is that bad. Or maybe it’s that “hard” SF gets written by men, and the whole conversation is incredibly gendered.

    Thing is, I’ve never claimed to write hard SF. I didn’t want to write SF at all for a long time because I was convinced the science fiction community did not want me and would not accept me–funny how that’s still kind of true. I can write about programming and physics till I’m blue in the face but it’ll never be SF for some reason.

    And what I said, what I have said over and over at conventions, is that you don’t need a background in math and science to write SF. That’s what research is for. I research like a bear and I would think anyone who’s read my books would laugh at the idea that I think everyone should be ignorant and uneducated–I mostly get called a pretentious, elitist asshole, not a champion of dumbing down. I was trying, as I always do, to assure young writers that they are allowed to write SF even if they don’t have a degree in physics, because I don’t know if people realize how intimidating it can be to even attempt science fiction with a lot of people yelling about getting off their lawn if you’ve never interned for NASA. Or are a dude.

    I do not have a science background. I research and I research hard because it’s more difficult for me than folklore and myth, which I’ve studied all my life. But I maintain it’s absurd to say SF can only be written by scientists–absurd and elitist and exclusionary. And honestly, show me the diamond-hard science in the Puppy slate. Show me the PhD peeking out from behind the dust jacket. The kind of SF they advocate, with the buxom ray guns and the strapping spaceships, is NOT hard SF. It’s adventure fiction “gussied up” as science fiction. And that’s fine, but it has no more real science than my gussied up fantasy.

    Dave can keep misquoting me if he likes, but I’ve only given that little speech at 20 or 30 conventions, and I know my lines. Claiming to remember something I said five years ago better than I do when it’s a standard bit I do at panels to put aspiring writers at ease and make them laugh is…well, I guess it’s the status quo. I, too, can say I’ve contacted people who were at the panel in question and they, too, have scoffed at Dave’s version of events, but that’s lurkers support me in email and not great, rhetorically. Being overeducated is my jam, yo. I have not and will never advocate for ignorance. Only for not getting hung up on not having a degree.

    This has gotten too long. Maybe I should have responded there, but as Dave chooses to respond to my direct tweets at him on his own site rather than to me, I don’t feel the need to wade into the “fisking” posts about how much I suck for things I never said. If he didn’t respond to my explanation with “hey, misunderstanding” then nothing I say now will change his mind. He knows what I meant! My silly lady brain can rest easy.

    But it got long in part because I’ve been writing SF for 7 of my 11 years as a professional writer and I still, still get told it isn’t SF, no matter what the content, or the style, or the science. What is it that I have to write to be considered legitimate, instead of some fantasy fox in the science hen house? In all seriousness, just let me know, and I’ll get right on it, because it’s exhausting to be continually dismissed from the genre that is supposed to welcome everyone so long as they like rockets.

  40. At least Vox recognizes that Hurley’s piece was satire. I wonder how many people had to tell him, this time.

  41. As for CSAFarmer,

    “We had no stick to threaten him with (you can’t fire a volunteer who is going to keep doing his thing, with or without you). ”

    You can tell him to take his stick and go home. What kind of business were you running, that you HAD to let someone continue to volunteer?

  42. “The Taliban has been fighting to defend their way of life in their own tribal lands for 36 years. They have killed hundreds of thousands of people, from elite Spetsnaz soldiers to unarmed young women. It is quite clear that they will kill anyone who threatens it, and considering how they have survived two invasions and occupations by two superpowers, their ruthlessness is not only rational, but understandable and even, from a strategic perspective, admirable. Less determined forces would have collapsed and surrendered years ago.”

    1) their “way of life” is as a theocracy where women have essentially no rights. They only exist as breeding property.
    2) ruthlessness in defense of such a “way of life” is the complete opposite of admirable (in whatever way)
    3) less determined forces would have given up years ago and Afghanistan could finally move into the 20th century (no that’s not a time error) which is what most of the Afghans WANT!!

    conclusion … your admiration is misplaced. And YOUR determination to hold it is the cause of you being labeled a misogynist.

    I can figure that out … why can’t you?

    or are you going to go to great lengths to explain how the words that you wrote … don’t really mean what they appear to say? Something about rhetorical dialectic doesn’t mean what you think it means blah blah blah?

    It seems pretty clear.

  43. @clif: In the Vox quote you cite the words “from a strategic perspective” are before the word “admirable”.

  44. “I didn’t want to write SF at all for a long time because I was convinced the science fiction community did not want me and would not accept me — funny how that’s still kind of true.”

    As a SF/F reader who leans hard towards SF, I am glad you’re writing science fiction and find the idea you don’t belong to be offensive and ridiculous. Don’t let the bastards get you down.

  45. Hey my pseudonym isn’t exactly a cunning disguise is it?

    I don’t think I had an issue with how you treat Mr Beale but with some other things you’ve said in relation to another incident involving your SO and a friend of mine.

    For the most part I agree with what you’ve said here.

    One of the bits that drives me absolutely fucking nuts about this is the ‘them’ and ‘us’ stuff where the Venn diagram involved is highly messy overlaps a lot and has people who don’t much get on agreeing with each other (/waves at Nick M)

  46. ‘Some of you may not be aware that Yousafzai was no “innocent schoolgirl”, she was the daughter of a pro-Western activist, had been a paid propagandist for the BBC and other Western organizations for four years, and had even met with Richard Holbrooke before the “irrational” Taliban finally decided to kill her. Notice also that the Taliban have left her alone now that she’s no longer living in Pakistan.’

    Wow, slipped right over into an apologetic, there. I suppose the SJWs of your enemies are your SJWs.

  47. ‘Some of you may not be aware that Yousafzai was no “innocent schoolgirl”, she was the daughter of a pro-Western activist, had been a paid propagandist for the BBC and other Western organizations for four years, and had even met with Richard Holbrooke before the “irrational” Taliban finally decided to kill her. Notice also that the Taliban have left her alone now that she’s no longer living in Pakistan.’

    My god. A fourteen year old girl, shot in the head.

  48. @Peace-(quoting something you quoted)
    “Notice also that the Taliban have left her alone now that she’s no longer living in Pakistan.”

    Yes, 14. And he adds this with the apparent expectation that this makes it better somehow?

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