Sunday Business Meeting at Sasquan

Today the Sasquan Business Meeting will consider 4/6, E Pluribus Hugo plus other unfinished business and whatever shennanigans people have left in their deck at this point.

Livebloggers welcome.

1,619 thoughts on “Sunday Business Meeting at Sasquan

  1. Oh boy, when Mike said not to spend the next 500 comments ragging on JCW, I bet he wasn’t thinking of this as the alternative.

  2. As someone who’s been on the receiving end of File 770’s wrath a couple times (holla Kurt!), I suggest that in the heat of the moment you might be overestimating our collective loathsomeness.

    Aw, don’t go talking him back in. That was a perfectly good flounce and you wouldn’t want him to waste it.

    IDK’s mission for today seems to be to describe things in negative-sounding terms, try to get people to agree that these descriptions are accurate, and then flutter and gasp when anyone suggests that his terms carry negative connotations. He just wants people to admit it. Admit it. They should be honest enough to admit it!

    So should IDK, but, well…

  3. @Lenora Rose: In either case, the “I’ll pray for you” would be the lesser offense. Approaching him after he’s ignored several emails is stalker behavior and is Just Not Ok. If someone doesn’t want to talk to you, that sucks, but you need to respect that and not follow them around looking for an opportunity to approach.

  4. @Ray

    Motion to Extend the Eligibility of Any Works Forced Off the Hugo Awards Ballot by Works Finishing Below “No Award”

    No I would vote against it. I would be happy to see an Alfie or Asterisk award if people want to self-organize for the works pushed off by the slate in 2015.

  5. 2. I’m still boggling over JCW’s insistence that the voters denied him the votes that were his due. Seriously. The Hugo voters *owed* him their votes, but gave it to No Award and, in lesser part, to other candidates instead. That’s some grade-a entitlement bullshit right there. I just can’t even.

    I think (part of) the problem is that John C. Wright doesn’t seem to understand the instant runoff voting system. In the Best Novella category, “One Bright Star to Guide Them” got the second-highest amount of 1st place votes after No Award, with subsequent rounds bumping it down to fourth place. Take No Award out of the picture, and Wright still wouldn’t have won that category—but if the Hugos operated on a “whoever gets the most 1st-place votes wins” system, he would have.

    When Wright says,

    The Hugo Award voters paid me the signal honor of burning down two or perhaps three whole categories of awards merely to prevent me from being awarded the spaceship which the breakdown of the votes shows I was due.

    That only makes any sense at all if he doesn’t understand instant runoff voting (or just hopes instant runoff voting won’t apply because he doesn’t want it to.) I seem to recall Larry Correia also complaining in the past about how instant runoff voting made no sense to him, and therefore shouldn’t exist.

    Wright’s exact wording is problematic, because he talks about “two or three categories” here, when the Best Novella was the only category that he even had the most non-No Award first place votes. But then he talks about being owed a “spaceship”, singular, so . . . I think the problem is just that Wright really isn’t a very good writer.

  6. No, Camestros, I really can’t see us suggesting to a Balrog that we should take a walk on the wild side; the wretched thing would enjoy it a lot more than we would. You might just as well inquire whether it’s going to Scarborough fayre, when any sensible person would be hoping for the sound of silence as we departed homeward bound…

  7. @P J Evans

    jayn, I’m wondering if JCW and Ms Lamplighter have fainting couches in every room in their residence. Because that’s a remarkable display of pearl-clutching sensitivity on both their parts. (Especially for stuff that most of us get over before we get to be teenagers.)

    I know, right? What really bothers me is that to them the idea that using the word “ass” is a barbaric breach of etiquette worthy of pistols at dawn, while calling people (including at least one obvious Jew) “Christ-hating Crusaders of Sodom” is just Tuesday in the Wright household.

    “I’m going to pray for you” is one of those passive-aggressive gut-punches, like offering forgiveness to someone you’ve wronged, or repeatedly saying “calm down” to someone who’s perfectly calm but is going to get pissed if you keep doing it.

    In fairness to the lady, it seems to me in my reading of her words that she did not lead with “I’ll pray for you”, and may not even have said it to PNH at all, only congratulated herself afterwards on being the ONLY person there who would react to PNH’s outburst with a prayer for his poor benighted soul.

    OTOH, she rather conspicuously omitted what she actually DID say to PNH that his outburst responded to. “You tell him to shovel it up his…” What was the “it” she conveyed from Wright to PNH that brought that answer from PNH? This she elides with true old-fashioned discretion.

  8. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    Dude, where’s my car?

  9. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “Resistance is futile.”

  10. In this case, I think Beale used Wright pretty badly — it would have to be Beale who paid for the plane tickets (he wasn’t nominated for anything published by Tor, and if Tor had wanted him at the show they’d have paid lodging, too), and he must have done it knowing that things wouldn’t go well for the puppy nominees, or at least strongly suspecting it. Heck, he’s been saying this would be the result and that would mean he wins for weeks now.

    I had a moment of real pity and horror at Wright reading his “In memoriam” post. Not only he did not anticipate losing the Hugo to No Award. He still thinks that, if not for the plots of his enemies, he would have won it. He says that he received

    The Hugo Award voters paid me the signal honor of burning down two or perhaps three whole categories of awards merely to prevent me from being awarded the spaceship which the breakdown of the votes shows I was due.

    moreover:

    My fans voted for the works of mine they read and judged worthy in record numbers. (In terms of raw votes, my nominated works received more votes than some of the masterworks mentioned above.)

    This is simply not true, and not true in a very obvious manner. Even I, without any mathematical ability whatsoever, could read the vote breakdown to see that he didn’t go nowhere near winning even a second place.

    This is not delusion because of epistemic closure. This is not being able to see the reality in front of your eyes. Quite apart from what this says about his mental state, the experience of sitting in that auditorium must have been really, really painful. The poor bastard went all the way to Spokane, at what must have been some financial hardship even considering all the help, actually believing that he was going to win a Hugo.

  11. “I am humbled by the laud shown my work” — JCW

    I wanted Hugos but I got none
    I fought the laud and the laud won
    I fought the laud and the laud won.

  12. Interestingly, I heard very little about the Baen “best milsf and space opera” award this year, which you’d think the pups would’ve been talking up more.

    You’d think, but the Puppies seem to scatter whenever there’s an opportunity to say something positive. Look at how few of them sang the praises of specific works on the Hugo ballot after they put them there.

  13. In this case, I think Beale used Wright pretty badly

    He’s been using him badly since the start. An ugly spectacle, no matter how unsympathetic Wright is.

  14. I would like to propose that next year’s Worldcon committee, in accordance with subsection 3.3.17 of the WSFS Constitution, issue a special “Meta-Hugo” award for the author who has distinguished himself or herself in writing about the Hugo Awards themselves.

  15. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “On no, not again.”

  16. @Ray Radlein

    Motion to Extend the Eligibility of Any Works Forced Off the Hugo Awards Ballot by Works Finishing Below “No Award”

    Oh yeah, right. I remember that coming up now.

    Regarding the Hugos this year, the outcome was, IMO, the second-best possible. I was kind of hoping that people would vote for an editor over No Award* and I wouldn’t have been bummed if English had won something. I was unsurprised but relieved to find that RP/GG was not enough of an issue to influence the final vote. I was completely unsurprised to find that SP was not the silent majority. Maybe a little relieved, as I was starting to worry I was suffering some iteration of the Dunning-Kruger effect, given how sure I was that 1) the Puppy works were mostly bad, 2) most people who vote for the Hugos agreed with me and, 3) the Puppy narrative is completely insane.

    * I didn’t vote at all in the editor categrories because I was too ignorant – I would have been following GRR Martin’s or someone else’s lead, without really understanding, and while sometimes I’m okay with following trusted sources’ opinions, in this particular case that would have seemed hypocritical.

  17. It’s funny. It’s perfectly clear to me that the fan-kickers exploited a weakness in the rules that allowed a minority of around 20% to dominate the nominations phase. Engaging with this troll or that since then, I’ve been amused by their unwillingness to forthrightly acknowledge this fact, but I assumed that this was merely a rhetorical gambit on their part and not an actual inability to see it.

    But if fan-kickers really did expect to carry away Hugos on Saturday, that would be evidence that they may really not understand the campaign that they’ve signed on to. Beale clearly gets it–witness his long campaign of framing the obvious defeat as a victory–but is it possible that he’s the only fan-kicker who saw this coming?

    I begin to feel a little honest pity for the minions.

  18. OK, one more.

    I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “I have a bad feeling about this.”

  19. My fans voted for the works of mine they read and judged worthy in record numbers. (In terms of raw votes, my nominated works received more votes than some of the masterworks mentioned above.)

    perhaps if you counted the votes for all FIVE of his nominated works together … he might have beat No-Award in ONE category …

  20. @shambles:

    No I would vote against it. I would be happy to see an Alfie or Asterisk award if people want to self-organize for the works pushed off by the slate in 2015.

    Oh, goodness, I would vote against it, too. Though it might be vaguely amusing to see it formally proposed.

  21. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “It’s just a jump to the left”

    “Get to the choppa!!”

    “Oh you ain’t seen nothing yet, I can take this floor out too… no trouble!”

  22. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “Morituri Nolumus Mori”

  23. Emma

    When Wright says,

    The Hugo Award voters paid me the signal honor of burning down two or perhaps three whole categories of awards merely to prevent me from being awarded the spaceship which the breakdown of the votes shows I was due.

    I did wonder if he had totalled the votes he got in the category and come to the conclusion that those were his vote – far more than anyone else including No Award.

    Annnnd ninjed by Cliff

  24. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “Eh, what’s up, Doc?”

  25. Nothing would stop the organizers of next year’s Worldcon from sponsoring Asterisk Awards, choosing five people in each Asterisk category that were bumped off this year’s Hugo ballot by the Puppies, and inviting members to vote for those awards using an individual-runoff system. They just couldn’t call those awards “Hugos”.

  26. Oh, one more,

    I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “I love the smell of napalm in the morning.”

  27. @nightengale
    Re: your #2, there’s already three Baen-sponsored awards–all for short stories, though, not novels. The latest is this year’s new “best milsf and space opera”:
    http://file770.com/?p=22962

    They also have an award (judged by Larry Correia) for fantasy short story, and of course the Jim Baen Memorial Award for a near-future in-our-solar-system sf short story.

    Yeah, I’m aware of those, and am planning to get around to the latest best MilSF anthology at some point when my TBR pile is smaller. I was mostly being snarky about the Puppies in proposal 2.

  28. Since Ginger is stepping up to do the dirty work, she can give a list of the top 20 in her opinion, and we might work from there.

    Ah, ha ha ha. I sure left myself open to that, didn’t I? Very well. I will begin bracketing once the entries have slowed to a trickle..

  29. I was kind of hoping that people would vote for an editor over No Award*

    My problem with the Editor categories was that while I didn’t have enough data to vote any of them above No Award, there were absolutely, definitely, incontrovertibly, un-ameliorated-ly choices I wanted to vote below No Award.

    And you can’t do that without voting No Award.

    So I figured No Award was a better choice for my particular view of things than No Vote, and if there were people deserving, hopefully the voters in a position to know would outnumber me.

  30. Emma, thank you, your explanation makes more sense out of JCW’s protest than anything I was able to think up. If he’s thinking first-past-the-post, then he would be confused as to why simply removing No Award wouldn’t still give him the win.

    However, there remains the circular logic factor, where the Hugo Award voters denied him the award which the vote breakdown showed he was due. I’m having trouble putting into words exactly how much “you’re so wrong, you’re not EVEN wrong” is packed into that one sentence, but…

    The Hugo Award voters paid me the signal honor of burning down two or perhaps three whole categories of awards merely to prevent me from being awarded the spaceship which the breakdown of the votes shows I was due.

    …the “breakdown of the votes” is an examination of the way the voters voted. The Hugo Award voters cannot logically be said to have done something to prevent an outcome that “the breakdown of the votes” predicts; the Hugo Award voters created “the breakdown of the votes.” Argh! So the whole sentence is just–I can’t. I just. I’m reduced to repeating myself in endless modulations in a desperate bid for clarity. Cannot word. Brain broken.

    Also? Even if you deprived the voters of the option of No Award, “the breakdown of the votes” cannot show where those 2500 or so votes would have gone. Even with JCW expecting first past the post, he can’t say that the breakdown shows he was due a rocket. All it shows is that No Award got votes that didn’t go to any other candidate.

    So it’s still entitled, AND it’s circular and bass-ackwards, and my ability to even remains entirely not.

  31. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    Ah … ! What’s happening?
    Er, excuse me, who am I?
    Hello?
    Why am I here? What’s my purpose in life?
    What do I mean by who am I?
    Calm down, get a grip now … oh! this is an interesting sensation, what is it? It’s a sort of … yawning, tingling sensation in my … my … well I suppose I’d better start finding names for things if I want to make any headway in what for the sake of what I shall call an argument I shall call the world, so let’s call it my stomach.
    Good. Ooooh, it’s getting quite strong. And hey, what’s about this whistling roaring sound going past what I’m suddenly going to call my head? Perhaps I can call that … wind! Is that a good name? It’ll do … perhaps I can find a better name for it later when I’ve found out what it’s for. It must be something very important because there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Hey! What’s this thing? This … let’s call it a tail – yeah, tail. Hey! I can can really thrash it about pretty good can’t I? Wow! Wow! That feels great! Doesn’t seem to achieve very much but I’ll probably find out what it’s for later on. Now – have I built up any coherent picture of things yet?
    No.
    Never mind, hey, this is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I’m quite dizzy with anticipation …
    Or is it the wind?
    There really is a lot of that now isn’t it?
    And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground!
    I wonder if it will be friends with me?

  32. Lenora Rose & jayn

    Yeah. You’re both right, I read it wrong. Sounds like she was trying to force him to talk with her, maybe even trying to explain (uh, not sure what precisely based on her commnetary), and didn’t like the reaction she elicited. Then she said the thing about the praying in the blog post. Hmph.

    Not smart to try to force someone to listen to you at a party(?) when they’ve been successfully ignoring/avoiding you. I’ve been in her shoes, trying to get someone to talk, who really doesn’t want to talk because they know they’re done talking, and then she compounds it by complaining about it in such a passive-agressive way. Much more clueless than rude of her. (ETA clarity)

  33. Re: Asterisk Awards

    Almost all of those people Asterisk-ed actually have 2016 eligible work. I think the simplest solution would be to make a point of seeking out their 2015 works and seeing if they happen to be worth of a 2016 nomination (along with looking for lots of other good works in 2015, of course).

    I’m just putting the finishing touches to a list, as it happens, but it is full of links and so is likely to end up in moderation.

  34. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “If I could walk that way, I wouldn’t need the talcum powder.”

  35. @Ray
    Ah thanks, for clarifying that. I have seen this idea pop up from time to time. It would led to lot of even more hurt feelings. Anyways it would generate a lot of debate ;). Popcorn would need to be readied.

  36. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “I have had it with these m***-f*** Balrogs in these m***-f*** mines!”

  37. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    Hello clouds, hello sky, hello pile of severed human heads.

  38. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    On your left.

  39. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    Won’t you be my neighbor?

  40. @Kurt Busiek

    My problem with the Editor categories was that while I didn’t have enough data to vote any of them above No Award, there were absolutely, definitely, incontrovertibly, un-ameliorated-ly choices I wanted to vote below No Award.

    That makes sense. I left my ballot blank in the editor categories, gambling that the one editor I really hoped wouldn’t win would definitely not win.

    I did, however, vote for Amanda Green for Fan Writer. I didn’t even realize that until several days after the ballots were closed. I must have clicked poorly. So my votes in that category were Amanda Green and No Award. Horrible. Most of the Puppy Fan Writer entries (all of them?), at least the material in the Hugo packets, seemed to be paranoid rantings about SJWs and CHORFs.

    But yegads (looking back at the winners and remembering) “The Day the World Turned Upside Down”! Oh, I hated that. Felt like speculative MRA fiction. Grossed me the hell out. It wasn’t terrible, writing-wise, for something that might have come out of a college creative writing class, but Hugo-worthy? Yeesh.

  41. @Kathodus
    I did not vote for the day the world turned upside down either. It passable but not to my taste.

  42. @Anna

    I had a moment of real pity and horror at Wright reading his “In memoriam” post. Not only he did not anticipate losing the Hugo to No Award. He still thinks that, if not for the plots of his enemies, he would have won it.

    Between this and the writer who came into a thread earlier and mentioned bringing his kids to the award, I’m reminded of the most recent US presidential election. For months prior, many republicans were convinced the standard polls were misleading and skewed, and if I remember the reporting of the election night correctly, Mitt Romney believed them so strenuously he went into that night confident he would win.

    I think the puppies are in a similar situation. They truly believe they speak for the silent majority of fandom, and thus believed that they would win an award. Even losing doesn’t shake that belief. They still think they stand for the silent majority and so the only way they could have lost is due to an imagined secret cabal of SJWs controlling the ballot.

    I wonder how much of what we see as peculiar reactions just stems from that one unshakable belief in being part of the silent majority.

  43. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    “The line must be drawn HERE!”

  44. To be very fair to JCW – not grasping how the process works seems to be endemic on the Puppy side. I’m still very interested to note that there were, at most about 600 hardline puppies, probably, actually more like 550 who actually put their money where their mouths were and voted. I also note, with amusement, that it was confirmed that Mr Beale was not, in fact, one of them – at least not in his own name or nom used.

    I’m glad we’ve proposed the fixes – I suspect we’ll have this again next year, but I suspect that there will be untainted stuff to vote for that gets passed the 500 vote block, especially in some of the fiction categories just like with Guardians this year.

  45. @Kathodus: Right there with you. TDTWTUD was, IMO, just plain bad. I like to think that it wouldn’t have won had there been any other candidate that didn’t stink of slate, but I guess it’s hard to say. TTBP won Best Novel, which just goes to show that a lot of voters don’t share my tastes.

  46. I, for one, am very glad to see fandom standing fast upon this bridge, facing the Balrog with those immortal words that nobody here needs me to repeat.

    yes I said yes I will Yes

  47. @Fugue – I think that between a lack of understanding of how the voting process worked v. the nomination process, there was a deepset belief that the bulk of the huge numbers of supporting sign ups that Sasquan had were due to Gamer Gaters and fellow travelers signing up to give the SJWs a good kicking.

    The reality is they got about twice as many people to sign up as those that had signed up or were signed up before and old school fandom signed up in droves.

    I also note that there’s a lot of ‘oh you’re going to be sorry when all 15,000 Gamergaters turn up next year!’ – and there I think people are confusing bot accounts and vague twitter followers with people who can be arsed to spend money on a thing.

  48. Considering the alternative/slate-free 2015 nomination list and the discussion of Asterisks, it occurred to me that work from those authors who non-slaters liked last year might be of interest to people looking for work eligible for 2016. Therefore here is a list of the authors of the top-5 non-slated works in the fiction categories, with their 2015 works, but obviously excluding those who actually got a nom this year.
    (Not guaranteed to be either accurate or comprehensive, but I tried!)
    Campbell Award for Best New Writer

    Andy Weir
    – Some movie coming out this year, apparently!

    Alyssa Wong

    – (Forthcoming) Hungry Daughters of Starving Mothers in Nightmare Magazine’s special issue, Queers Destroy Horror!

    Carmen Marchado
    I Bury Myself
    Descent
    Transcription of An Eye in Watchlist.
    – (Forthcoming) “The Old Women Who Were Skinned.” The Fairy Tale Review.

    Django Wexler
    The Shadow of Elysium (The Shadow Campaigns)
    The Price of Valour (The Shadow Campaigns)

    Best Short Story

    Ursula Vernon
    Pocosin

    Aliette de Bodard
    THE HOUSE OF SHATTERED WINGS

    Amal El-Mohtar
    Madeleine
    Pockets

    Eugie Foster – sadly, none.

    Max Gladstone
    Last First Snow
    Badge, Book and Candle in Bookburners

    Best Novelette

    Seanan McGuire (AKA Mira Grant)
    A Red-Rose Chain
    Pocket Apocalypse
    Survival Horror in Press Start to Play
    The Moon Inside in Midian Unmade: Tales of Clive Barker’s Nightbreed
    Please Do Not Taunt the Octopus (as Mira Grant)
    Resistance in The End Has Come
    The Happiest Place… (as Mira Grant) in The End Has Come,
    Rolling in the Deep
    In Skeleton Leaves in Operation Arcana
    There is No Room For Sorrow in the Kingdom of the Cold in The Doll Collection
    – Also some in-universe short fiction.

    Kai Ashante Wilson
    – (Forthcoming) The Sorcerer of the Wildeeps

    Ruthann Emrys
    The Deepest Rift

    Tom Crosshill
    – Appears to have a 2016 novel forthcoming, and working hard on the next

    Best Novella

    Pat Rothfuss
    – Apparently nothing. Write faster, man!
    Ken Liu
    The Grace of Kings

    Nancy Kress
    Why I Hate Earth in THE END HAS COME
    Blessings in 2015 Young Explorer’s Adventure Guide

    Rachel Swirsky
    – (Essay) All Your Fic Are Belong to Us in Lightspeed

    Mary Rickert
    – (Forthcoming) You Have Never Been Here

    Best Novel

    John Scalzi
    The End of All Things (Novel, also the constituent novellas)
    Robert Jackson Bennet
    – (Forthcoming 2016) City of Blades
    – Nothing 2015 that I can find

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