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File 770
Mike Glyer's news of science fiction fandom
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LOL. Yes it did. Here it is in all its glory.
Darren, I don’t know what you’re seeing (maybe he’s updated it since), but I see rcade’s gravatar as a perfectly ordinary photo of the full Moon.
<edit to add> Just saw rcade’s update with the large photo. Wow. That was… something.
You know, not every culture sees a “man” in the moon. Some see rabbits pounding mochi, while others see a pope wearing a cowgirl hat. Don’t be culturally insensitive!
I certainly could have worded my request better. It would be easier to follow and participate in the nominating and voting discussions if they were in a single thread separate from the daily comment thread.
I’m sorry for the poor wording of my request.
@greghullender
I hope that was some attempt at tongue in cheek sarcasm towards Trisha.
Otherwise she’s got a good point – I lurk 99.99% of the time whereas she is an active participant, and I am sick to death of the ongoing voting process dominance in the threads. It was interesting during the actual business mtgs but that’s over now. I keep hoping the discussion will get on a different track. it would be great if those who care to discuss sequester your comments to a dedicated thread.
Has anyone heard anything about Good Morning, Midnight by Lily Brooks-Dalton or The Last One by Alexandra Oliva? Both are debut novels that came out in the last couple months and look intriguing.
@Tasha Turner
It’s okay. I’m sorry I snapped at you.
Greg Hullender: Thanks for your encouragement about my health. It helps.Hugo rules and other Wsfs rules change stuff will be an enduring discussion.So I am going to get up a post for that in hopes it will do the greatyest good for the greatest number. This is my editorial sense of things needed, not just in response to one person.
So I’m in today’s Lucky 10,000 to learn about the (former) pope’s fancy new hat. Apparently, it was a thing at the time…
@Mike Glyer,
Best wishes for your health from London, as well – and thank you for keeping File770 up and running for us and catering to our requests, even when we’re making things a bit complicated for you!
I have, today, purchased my Worldcon 75 membership – which will be the first one I’ll attend! Now to consider flights, etc …
I note I’m participating in the voting discussion as frustrating as I’ve been finding it. I was in no way indicating only men were discussing it. Only men were moving it from the MACII business meeting thread to other threads.
Yes I should have left gender out.
How women on File 770 are feeling about white male voices in the way they were discussing DT and Worldcon was discussed in a thread. On the MACII business meeting thread Johan P. stated tossing ballots as easier to prove a CoC violation than “things which happen in a room between 2 people with no witness” or “which happen in dark corners”. I might be feeling a bit sensitive this week due to these topics/incidents.
Best wishes for your continued recovery, Mike!
@Mike Glyer
Sending warm healthy thoughts your way. We are looking forward to hearing you are released from the hospital and truly feeling and getting better. It’s encouraging seeing you around a bit. I’m so sorry I’ve caused you problems.
@Christian Brunschen
I’m hoping Worldcon 75 will be my first Worldcon also. I’ve got attending membership. Now I need to get healthy enough to go.
Thanks for the explanation.
@Christian Brunschen
Seeing your post reminded me and I bought my membership (supporting only, alas) I see that they are offering a special price for first time members, which is cool.
Tasha: You made if clear in that other thread that the only follow-up from me that you was interested in was an apology for saying something you considered offensive. I gave you one. I would appreciate it if you will now would refrain from backtalking me in other threads by misrepresenting what I wrote.
Sasquan was my first WorldCon. Steph (my wife) had been a supporting member for a few years prior to that.
We live in Seattle, and Sasquan was only a few hours away. “We have no excuse,” I told her, “for not going.” So we did – and had a great time.
We probably won’t be in Helsinki, but we probably will be in San Jose.
@bookworm1398, yes, they do – though only if you’ve never had any kind of Worldcon membership before; I’ve had supporting memberships (2015 and 2016) so it’s full price for me.
@Johan P
I’m sorry if you feel it is a misrepresentation. Thank you again for the apology.
@John A. Arkansawyer
It was my intention not to respond to anything else on the matter after that, but by apologizing, you have forced my hand. Therefore:
I, of course, accept your apology, and thank you for it. Had I seen this line of objection coming, I feel sure I could have phrased things in such a way as to forestall it. Looking back, the [sarcasm snipped] comment seems a bit weird. What it was, was that I had another paragraph, and I decided it looked better without it. Rest assured that if there were any good lines in there, I’d use them somewhere else.
@Kip W: I think sometimes we underestimate how much of the language we–for values of “we” numbering somewhere in the low billions–use is jargon or reasonably interpreted as jargon by someone who isn’t a cat that’s in the know.
Where scrolls have no name.
Way behind on comment-reading, but at least I’ve got a post up arising from a conversation I had at Worldcon. The issue is: I’m looking for a better word than “privilege” for things like “an expectation of safety and respect in public spaces” — things that really *are* rights, even if they’re not available to many people.
Wow, finally listened to the Truesdale recording.
What a blowhard.
He railroads a whole panel, insults and caricatures the people he disagrees with as a jumping off point – and not even complaining about actual people doing definite discussable things, but rather referring to “those people” and “leftists” and what he characterizes as “pearl clutchers.”
Then he turns around to pontificate on their intolerance.
And, ah, he feel readers are intimidated – by these people he is seeing as “other” – I guess he thought he was there defending the Alamo or something.
I’d have felt pretty damned intimidated sitting there being othered, and mischaracterized, and mocked from the front of the room.
Doesn’t that count as intimidating me?
And aren’t I a reader?
Puppies talk about being made to feel like “wrong fans” having “wrong fun” but has anyone started a panel on fiction by bringing in a of puppy chow as a prop?
Even so, I think the yelling crowd guy is what put it over the top.
Maybe without that added chaos it wouldn’t have reached the level of the con pulling memberships.
Or perhaps not, see intimidation, above.
Yelling guy, on his blog, says an email from the con had asked for his input on the occurrence, but he hadn’t been checking his email at all.
So he had been out of order at the panel, and then accidentally blanked them when they gave him a chance to back away from it without severe tire damage.
Miscommunication more than anything else.
I haven’t seen anyone else post this, and I thought people might enjoy it. Here’s Nnendi Okorafor’s take on winning the Hugo, with some mandatory puppy-related comments. (Apparently VD actually got in touch with her directly in order to be rude at her.)
@Doctor Science
I see default rights and marked/unmarked have been suggested. Those might work. Part of the problem I’m seeing is straight white men think it’s an insult rather than a description. Same with wealthy whites. If you’re part of the 1-10% you are technically wealthy and most likely white in the US and currently your default rights/unmarked life is very different than most peoples. It’s a simple fact but talking about it is fraught with emotion. It’s easy to feel attacked and hard to put yourself in someone else’s shoes when your experiences are worlds apart.
@Doctor Science,
(My apologies, this may sound a bit rambling. Words are hard. Also, for the record, I’m speaking from a traditionally privileged position and I am well aware of that, so please apply a suitable amount of your favourite salt.)
I had the thought that where it comes to things like “an expectation of safety and respect in public places”, everyone has (or is supposed to have) that right … but the “privilege” part is about whether that right is going to be potentially challenged or ignored: someone privileged will have their rights generally much more unchallenged, than someone who is in a less privileged position and has to fight to retain or attain the things to which they should have the same right as anyone else.
If that makes any sense?
(and a lot of those words can probably end up being defined in terms of each other, turtles all the way down, etc …)
Hmmm something as a virtue signal?
What could we use?
Virtue is abstract, so it really should be a word that is projected.
The word should pertain to virtue in its ethical sense.
A religious leader such as Jesus or Buddha, who has extolled virtue would be unfortunately divisive.
But perhaps somebody who discuss ideas similar to the Buddha’s but in a more secular way…
…and whose writings on virtue-based ethics were co-opted by Islamic, Christian, Jewish and secular thinkers…
…wait, I know!
ARISTOTLE!
Except he was a bit of a jerk 🙂
The problem with privilege is my differential access as a white guy to the things that everyone has a right to have. The rights themselves aren’t the problem.
The problem with privilege talk is that it suggests what should be rights are actually privileges. That’s especially problematic in two contexts: Human rights and especially economic justice. The VRPs–Very Rich People–who run the world would like for the rest of us to have less, as little as they can arrange. Defining the level of economic security* that some white Americans got as a privilege for them, rather than a right denied to others, is Very Good for the Very Rich. The once-common metaphor in some black communities is crabs in a bucket: When one crab starts to climb out, the others pull it back in. It’s not quite what I’m describing, but it’s close enough.
We’re all crabs in the bucket of the rich, and they’ve talked us into pulling each other down rather than up. Solidarity in reverse.
I use the privilege lens myself. It’s true to reality and very useful.
I also try to use the rights lens next to it. The combination is much more true to reality and much more useful than either on its own.
*The numbers are going down for Americans, just as they have been, and I don’t see any way around it. There was a limit to the easy money we could make off the rest of the world and we’ve hit it. The level of security that some white Americans enjoyed might be attainable for all Americans. I’m not sure about the world, but I’m optimistic.
lauowolf: Wow, finally listened to the Truesdale recording…
Yeah, rather than vindicating him, as he claims, it really just cemented the reports of how badly he had behaved. If he hadn’t actually caused hurt to a lot of people, it would be kind of hilarious that he doesn’t realize just how badly that recording reflects on him.
lauowolf: Even so, I think the yelling crowd guy is what put it over the top… So he had been out of order at the panel, and then accidentally blanked them when they gave him a chance to back away from it without severe tire damage.
This is what makes me think that MAC II did try to contact Truesdale before ejecting him — and that he either ignored or didn’t see their attempted contact, leaving them no choice but to go ahead and act.
I do think that it’s really nice that the yelling asshole has outed his real identity to everyone — including future Worldcons and other cons.
Another link folks may find interesting. This one was reposted on FB by Chuck Tingle himself, and is about a writer who was inspired by Chuck’s work.
No…not that way! This is interesting, not crass! 🙂
Visited Mike: Had another nice visit today. Mike is close to being ready to get home and sitting in front of his computer. The hope is that September 2nd will be his home-sweet-home date.
@ lauowolf: As free as the grass grows, born free to follow your heart!
(Shared pain is diminished. You’re welcome.)
@ rcade: I have frequently thought that a significant part of the Puppies’ appeal (for those to whom they do appeal) stems from attempting to recreate that early “scorned minority interest” dynamic, only within the fannish community rather than in reference to the non-fannish world. The feeling of persecution is uplifting to various personality types, and downright addictive to a few of them — as we are also seeing play out in current American politics.
@ Seth: Gotham is the kind of city that never has clear nights.
Very much so, since classic Batman and the period of the show Gotham both predate the EPA.
@Doctor Science
Privilege bothers me too because it sounds like something you want to take away from people. I’m far happier just using the term “rights” and adding whatever explanation is needed to make it clear. For example, as a gay man, I’m very aware that if someone were to accuse me of molesting a child, I would not enjoy the same privilege of presumption of innocence that a straight man would get. But I don’t see this as a privilege he has–it’s a right that I’m denied due to ignorance and prejudice.
Fighting for equal rights is a strong position to be in. Protesting someone else’s privilege is a very weak one.
There’s a nice Worldcon report from a first-timer here.
@ bookworm1398: This is a very common phenomenon across all kinds of right-wing circles, and I believe it to be related to One-True-Wayism. They are so deeply and totally convinced that their One True Way is the obvious default path that they project that belief onto everyone else. And before anyone jumps in with “but the Left does that too!”, I will note that there is a huge difference between saying that people who disagree with your views are wrong and saying that they are LYING when they express their own views. (See also, the people who insist that atheists are lying about their disbelief in a Supernatural Being.)
@JKT: De-lurking to thank you for the update! Get well soon, Mike!
@John A Arkansawyer
I still think there’s a difference between the two, when one has jargon that has accreted over six or seven decades on a number of subjects, and the other is cranking out jargon which consists almost entirely of insulting terms for a single group who they perceive as the enemy behind every wrong.
It reminds me a bit too much of a particular ancestor’s fulminations against a generally oppressed group that he felt were responsible for everything he didn’t like in the world. He told us about this every chance he got.
I never thought of it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense. I do think the sads are a lot less scorned these days than some of them believe. I wonder how many of them had a good time at Worldcon. This year passions over the awards weren’t running as hot as last.
Xtifr, damn, that brought tears to my eyes. In a good way.
@JKT,
Thanks for the update on Mike. I’m heartened to read of OGH’S continuing improvement.
JKT, that is great news. Even if the estimated date of Mike’s homecoming is a week off, it is still an actual date, a real timeline. So excited!
Nice to have an update, Mike. You are sorely missed.
@ lauowolf: Re not checking e-mail, that used to be me when I was at a con. Then I got a smartphone. 🙂
That sounds snide, but it’s actually serious. Pre-smartphone, checking my e-mail at a con meant having time to be in my hotel room and set up my laptop (when I’m stuck in the dealer room for most of the day, and frequently so exhausted by the time I get back to the room after dinner that I don’t feel like doing anything but sleeping), and getting logged into the hotel’s wi-fi (which, at a Worldcon-level hotel, is generally not free), and then scanning the day’s e-mail all at once (usually 100+ messages, most of which come from political mailing lists). Lots of little things which tend to add up to a feeling of Not Worth The Effort.
With the smartphone, I can take a few minutes at any point during the day to do a quick scan of the e-mail that’s come in since I last looked. As a result, contacting me by e-mail at a con is no longer a fruitless exercise — although a text or FB message is still probably more efficient.
I still tend to disappear from my online communities when I’m at a con, though. Participating via Google search and teeny keypad is… not appealing.
@ Tasha: Another piece of it is that nobody ever actually thinks of themselves as being wealthy, even when they clearly are. I’ve heard people who make $300,000 per year describe themselves, un-ironically, as “middle class”. I quite took aback one person a few Worldcons ago who was casually talking about plans to attend the Australian Worldcon by remarking that it must be nice to be rich. Being able to afford two 4-figure airfares plus hotel expenses without blinking? Yeah, that’s wealth. But that person didn’t see it that way.
Cerece Rennie Murphy has posted a list of “Other Authors of Color in Speculative Fiction (besides me)”, with links to other such lists as well.
rcade: AFAICT, Moshe got involved in the early 1970’s, about the same time I did; this hardly qualifies as “early fandom”. And I’m speaking specifically to his claim of being part of an unbranched stream, which wasn’t so. Note that the gap (not a complete split, but definitely a separation with few bridges) was still going on decades later; fanzine fans would pile into their little lounge at Worldcon and the rest of the con would go on around them. Now at least the fanzine lounge is (at least sometimes) part of a large hall rather than deliberately walled off.
Andrew M: to a significant extent, cons grew out of the ]contempt[ of the mundane world for the readers of SF. While it’s true that attendees at some of today’s more photogenically strange conventions may be mocked in the media, even that is not a given — and the media don’t even notice conventions with a general orientation to SF rather than specific devotion to anime, fur-ness, etc. (I also think you overestimate the attraction of Star Trek, which died after three seasons.) But Moshe’s main point, which I agree with, is that fandom was a reaction to rejection — and the rejection isn’t happening any more.
Lee: there’s a difference between having wealth (which doesn’t say how much) and being rich. The last Aussiecon bid started in 2002; you don’t know how long the person in question had been planning/saving, or what he didn’t do instead. (My brother-in-law made a lot more than I did but considered Aussiecon 4 impossible; I don’t know what he was spending on. Putting an only child through a state college was relevant, but not much.) And wrt “middle class” — there was a Hruska-class congressman 10-20 years ago who quoted that $$ figure for middle class, claiming his salary (at least $150K at the time) made him “just folks”.
I have made a major book-related life decision!
When we want books the public library doesn’t have, I will order them through their online Book Suggestion system. If all three of us want to read it, we’ll read fast. Someone at the Angry Robot booth at Worldcon said they’d prefer us to make library requests (rather than buying personal copies) at this stage of the game, because they really need more libraries to know about them and to order from their catalogue.
If I find the hard copy unreadable, or if the other two SFF readers in the house aren’t interested, I’ll order the ebook.
Exception for Bujold (buy on sight), but not many others, especially now that Pratchett’s gone. sigh.
Chip Hitchcock: But Moshe’s main point, which I agree with, is that fandom was a reaction to rejection — and the rejection isn’t happening any more.
I’m certainly no expert on this — especially since this was before my time — but I think that fandom was more a reaction to a need for people to find like-minded cohorts who could share joy in the same things than it was a reaction to rejection (although many of us in fandom certainly rejoiced to find that we were no longer considered “weird” once we found fandom).
I have a general membership question. I found the following at the Worldcon 75 site:
Participants of the 2017 Worldcon Site Selection have been automatically granted supporting membership. Supporting memberships may be upgraded to attending memberships.
Since I voted for Helsinki last year, does that mean I get an automatic supporting membership in Worldcon 75? (Too knackered from a sinus infection and the effing antibiotics to treat it to wade through the WSFS constitution. Besides, y’all are better than Google for this kind of information ;-9
Doctor Science: When we want books the public library doesn’t have, I will order them through their online Book Suggestion system. If all three of us want to read it, we’ll read fast. Someone at the Angry Robot booth at Worldcon said they’d prefer us to make library requests (rather than buying personal copies) at this stage of the game, because they really need more libraries to know about them and to order from their catalogue.
I’m extremely lucky in that I live in a very large city, with 55 library branches — and the Acquisitions Librarians will order almost anything I ask for assuming that they can get it. (I strongly suspect that after several years of this, those librarians are well aware of who I am, and that my requests are pretty much always for things which will get read, which possibly fast-tracks my requests.)
Of course, when I make my requests, I always provide supporting comments such as “Author X is a multiple Hugo- and Nebula- nominee and winner” or “This is #3 in the xxxxx series; the Library already has Books #1 and #2”.
What usually happens is that anywhere from 2 to 6 copies get ordered (or even more, if other people are requesting the same books). The average seems to be 4 or 5.
So I figure that I am actually doing more for those authors by requesting through my library than I am by buying one copy for myself. Although sometimes, if it’s an author who is just starting out, I may buy my own copy in addition to requesting that the library buy it.