591 thoughts on “First Dragon Awards Presented”

1. @Bruce Baugh:

   There’s also a segment of GURPS and Hero fandom that’s interested in being able to run every genre as if it were a military simulation, and a lot of them are huge Baen fans too.

   I am a complete dope for utterly forgetting the existence of GURPS and Hero System when doing my synecdoche riff last night. I mean, I had The Fantasy Trip in mind and rejected it as not quite right.

   Interestingly enough, the first supers RPG, Superhero 2044, had a specific setting that was very stfnal, an independent island city-nation some while after a not-civilization-destroying World War II. Champions was the first to get a general “it’s now, with supers” vibe going.

   1. Superhero 2044 had a particular quality that has robbed it of much acknowledgement of its place in history, alas. (The particular quality that it was terrible.)
   2. Wait just a minute, Baugh. V&V beat Champions to market by two years! I’m afraid I know this because we threw V&V over for Champs when it came out, but V&V was a perfectly functional late-70s game.

   (Then we threw Champions over for the DC Heroes RPG.)

2. people kicked out of places for wrongthinking (parenthetically, do none of these people recognize irony?)) are apparently very, very sinful).

   Nope. Zero recognition of irony. Also very little humor. There is so much projection going on in that camp, they could be a movie theater.

3. Camestros Felapton: Or Australia

   Baen books are available in Australia, though not via any Australian distributors. Booksellers who want to stock them pretty much have to import their own… which I do (with help from the good folks at Baker & Taylor).

   In my small corner of the book trade, apart from Bujold, Weber and Flint, most of their stuff really doesn’t sell very well. Lee & Miller’s Liaden books sell small but steady quantities. Ringo does OK with some of his series but not others, Correia’s Monster Hunter books sell a few but not his other stuff. Torgersen has sold 2 books total. Hoyt used to do OK but her sales tanked around the time A Few Good Men hit the shelves*

   I find it hard to take them seriously as a publisher when they typo authors’ names on the front covers of their books.

   * If everyone who picked up a copy to laugh at the art bought one she would be a bestseller. Baen marketing doesn’t seem to care about the world outside the USA.

4. @Mister Dalliard I find it hard to take them seriously as a publisher when they typo authors’ names on the front covers of their books.

   Just wanted to see it again. Is checking covers for typos part of the group editing program? How hard is it to get your authors names correct on the cover?

5. Cassy B. — I made friends with Bob at a Star Trek con in Detroit in 1974, and was a guest at his home several times in the following years. Which is how I came to be there during one of his campaigns…

   I’ve also been ‘the help’ at Van Siegling’s table in the dealers room — he sold games and gaming supplies, and was great fun to work with and for… So while my tastes in gaming are narrow, I do have some experience.

   May have to rummage around for a local gaming group — now that I’m retired I certainly have enough time to play!

6. Tasha Turner on September 6, 2016 at 5:35 pm said:
   …How hard is it to get your authors names correct on the cover?

   Well, the ones NOT named “John Smith” can sometimes be tricky to spell…

7. @Jim Henley: You’re right, and I’ve got no excuse, since we played the heck out of V&V.

8. @ Tasha Turner: Quite hard unless Sarah Pinsker has changed her name recently:

   http://imageshack.com/a/img921/580/e4Jp4e.jpg

   Matthew Jospeph Harrington was corrected in a subsequent edition:

   http://imageshack.com/a/img921/3765/7wryhQ.jpg

9. I looked to see what the cover for Hoyt’s A Few Good Men looked like. I can’t think that Disco Fire Island Village People Birdman is what she was going for. On the positive side, if she got an action figure, it would go nicely with the Earring Magic Ken doll.

10. Looking at the back cover of a Baen short story anthology recently, I noticed that the editor’s name was misspelled. It was spelled correctly elsewhere on the same back cover, so it must have just been a “typo” or typing error that nobody noticed. Hard to see how that kind of thing gets by. (I can’t recall exactly which book it was.)

11. Chad: There is so much projection going on in that camp, they could be a movie theater.

    Hee. More like a multiplex.

    Mister Dailliard: Baen marketing doesn’t seem to care about the world outside the USA.

    Or even many people inside the USA, who also pick them up to laugh at the covers. Reminds us of the 80’s; they’re of a piece with acid-wash jeans and neon leotards, with mullets and giant shoulder pads.

    Jospeph?!

12. @Mr. Dalliard
    I find it hard to take them seriously as a publisher when they typo authors’ names on the front covers of their books.

    In the end this may be Baen’s most enduring legacy post Jim Baen – lack of professional standards in editing and awful cover art (which could just be folded into the first problem.)

13. Jospeph?!

    I’ve never counted how many times I’ve typed “Jospeh” or “Goerge”, but I’m sure it’s into three digits.

14. Yes, but it takes someone “special” to get two p’s in Joseph. And another special someone not to notice till after it’s printed.

    A quick look shows that the only Baen books I own are Bujold, Lee and Miller (after Ace dropped them), and the “Chicks in Chainmail” books. Girl cooties all. But at least CiC are supposed to have ludicrous covers.

15. A quick look shows that the only Baen books I own are Bujold, Lee and Miller (after Ace dropped them), and the “Chicks in Chainmail” books.

    A check through LibraryThing reveals that I have roughly 350 books published by Baen Books out of a total book collection just over 10,600 titles.

16. @lurkertype I wasn’t banned just for my picture. When people refuse to accept their claims and keep pointing out how they’re wrong, they eventually ban them. Amusingly enough, Dave Freer banned me from MGC for posting too much, right after he posted a reply to me asking a question and I answered him.

17. Spacefaringkitten:

    “Ouch. I got banned from Mad Genius Club blog for, well, disrespecting the Dragon Awards, I guess, which in this case consisted of saying that the voting numbers weren’t published. Ah well.”

    They need their safe spaces. Where only they are allowed to disrespect awards and only those that they don’t win.

18. I just told Rob Daviau, one of the two authors od Pandemic Legacy, that he won an award.
    Yeah, he didnt know.

19. @BigelowT

    I looked to see what the cover for Hoyt’s A Few Good Men looked like. I can’t think that Disco Fire Island Village People Birdman is what she was going for. On the positive side, if she got an action figure, it would go nicely with the Earring Magic Ken doll.

    I’ve seen that cover describes as the poster for an alternate reality Captain America: The Winter Soldier, if it had been made in 1986 and starred Dolph Lundgren.

    Those cover typos are… special. I’m amazed they got Brad Torgersen’s name right, since he gets misspelled a lot.

20. rob_matic : Yes, but Baen is what real fans like.

    It’s got electrolytes…

21. Gaming credentials! Is it that time?

    Assuming we’re only talking RPGs and I don’t have to drag out “OH YEAH, WELL I TAUGHT MYSELF AMIGABASIC TO MAKE A LOCKED ROOM GAME WHEN I WAS ELEVEN!” I played Shadowrun for almost a decade, starting in college, grafted the Ars Magica system onto it after one too many problems with conservation of mass, grafted CarWars on because the vehicle combat was absurdly broken, moved away, played Eberron, currently playing D&D for going on five years, with a consistently traumatized DM.

    I’ve also done artwork for a hit parade of game companies, the good, the bad, the vanished without a trace, am immortalized in flavor text in at least one sourcebook, and still a bit miffed about Tekumel.

22. @ Cora: Torgersen’s name seems to be spelled correctly throughout the book* but the introductory note to his story, presumably written by the editor, makes mention of a woman carrying a “suitfcase”. They didn’t even run a spell-check on the text.

    * As is Pinsker’s everywhere except the cover.

23. Hyman Rosen: “Amusingly enough, Dave Freer banned me from MGC for posting too much, right after he posted a reply to me asking a question and I answered him.”

    It’s a trap!

24. @Peer: So nobody knew about the awards to vote on them, nobody attended them, nobody accepted them, and nobody’s been notified if they won one.

    Mission accomplished!

25. @Standback
    Dammit, now I want a wargame featuring Aristotle.

    No Alexander RPG with Aristotle? Someone rectify that immediately!

26. It was not any better when Jim Baen was alive. I recall one of Planet Pirates books Listed different authors internally to those listed on the cover.

    Baen books are rare over here, you ocasionally see them in libraries or specialist booksellers.
    I remember when Larry Correia said he had not heard of Adam Roberts, who’s novels had won both the BSFA Award, and the John W. Campbell Memorial Award, being tempted to point out that my local Waterstones was currently carrying six, or was it eight? of Roberts’ novels and none of Correia’s. what really exasperated me was that He really did not seem to have heard of Roberts, here was someone calling for the reform of awards. Who had no clue of who had even won them , let alone how good or bad theprize winners might be.

    Must say I was amused at the reactions of people defending their nerdhood after accusations that they were not gamers. No one likes to be called a fake geek.

27. Simeon Beresford: what really exasperated me was that He really did not seem to have heard of Roberts, here was someone calling for the reform of awards. Who had no clue of who had even won them, let alone how good or bad the prize winners might be.

    One of the things I’ve really noticed about Puppies of both spots is how narrow their knowledge and experience seem to be when it comes to SFF. They’re big gamers — but from what they’ve said, it seems to be only for a very limited spectrum of games. Their SFF reading seems to be positively miniscule compared to most of the people who comment here — and their lack of knowledge pretty appalling, considering how constantly they brag about being “experts” on the history and quality of SFF.
    *cough*JCWIAmTheFrankHerbertOfTheDragonsBecauseHerbertWonTheFirstBestNovelHugo*cough*

    They made all kinds of noise about how important Larry Elmore is because “he was everywhere in the 80s” — that is, if “everywhere” consists of the artwork for a certain segment of gaming. He certainly wasn’t on any of the couple thousand SFF books I’ve read. Their idea of “everywhere” seems to match up with my idea of “1 city block in all directions”.

    And the Puppies seem to regard “I’ve never heard of him/her” as the supreme insult — instead of realizing that they are just emphasizing their own parochial tastes and lack of knowledge when they claim this about authors who’ve received numerous award nominations (Jemisin, Pinsker, Roberts, Kritzer, etc).

28. 1. Superhero 2044 had a particular quality that has robbed it of much acknowledgement of its place in history, alas. (The particular quality that it was terrible.)

    To be generous, it was incredibly early in the history of RPGs. The form hadn’t fully coalesced into what we know today, so I think there was an idea in there trying to work out what it was.

    Baen books obviously are available in the UK. Someone seems to have passed about 20 Weber books to my local Oxfam.

29. Hey. You diss the Dragons? You’re gonna get burned. Or banned. Barnned.

30. Did a check on our local speciality bookstore for Science Fiction to see how popular Baen was. There was actually one book at the topp 200-list. World of Warcraft: Dawn of the Aspects was placed as number 153. Only problem is that it wasn’t published by Baen. :/

31. Oh, and Weber is of course on the toplist. But not published by Baen.

32. @lukertype: I guess it was enough to notify Correira and Wright. Who cares about the rest anyway?

33. I’m a regular Dragon Con attendee and went over to the FB official page for Dragon Con to ask if people there had voted for the awards, knew who the puppies were or cared. Most people said “nope, nope, and nope.” But the puppies showed up after a few hours so that they could announce that the fans all voted for them and that those of us who were unhappy about the winners were “sore losers.” They also refer to the policy idea that people who actually attended the convention should be the ones who vote on the award as a “poll tax.”
    Their other big talking point is that Samuel Delany is a NAMBLA supporter. Who here has tangled with these guys before?

34. I’ve seen a few Flint and Weber books in Waterstons in Edinburgh. There may be a few more but those are the only ones I recall for sure.

    The specialist SF bookshop near the office has more, including a Tank Marmot hardback. It was on the clearance shelf though.

    Those have been imported though and the prices reflect that.

    Doesn’t just affect Baen books though, I’ve had a devil of a time finding Brust in the UK as well.

35. [Another ticky attempt, as I’ve screwed them up lately.]

36. They made all kinds of noise about how important Larry Elmore is because “he was everywhere in the 80s” — that is, if “everywhere” consists of the artwork for a certain segment of gaming. He certainly wasn’t on any of the couple thousand SFF books I’ve read.

    Good point, but as a gamer and Elmore fan in the 1980s I must point out a notable exception to the idea he was only visible in gaming. The Dragonlance novels were as much a literary project as a gaming one, and the look of that entire line and many of the early covers were by Elmore. To date there are 190 novels.

37. @Simeon Beresford, Must say I was amused at the reactions of people defending their nerdhood after accusations that they were not gamers. No one likes to be called a fake geek.

    Unfortunately, it’s a bit knee-jerk for me; as a woman I’m altogether too used to being assumed to be a fake geek. I remember some years back buying an X-Box at a Best Buy (big electronics store chain). The young man getting it for me glanced (obviously, not subtly) at my left hand, saw the wedding ring, and said, cheerfully, “Getting this for your husband, eh? Why don’t you buy a second controller in case you decide you want to play with him?” I gave him a Look, and said, “this is for me. My husband doesn’t game.” He didn’t know what to say. (Alas, I wish I was making this anecdote up…)

    @RedWombat, Car Wars, eh? I remember the time that one team put together a whole swarm of motorcycles on the basis of “quantity has a quality all its own”. Unfortunately, the side playing them hit a railroad embankment doing something like 60 MPH, the whole fleet of motorcycles went airborne, and a good half or more of them wiped out on landing….. It was a pity; I’d’ve really liked to see how that combat played out.

38. The Dragonlance novels were as much a literary project as a gaming one, and the look of that entire line and many of the early covers were by Elmore. To date there are 190 novels.

    Well, yes, but those novels were published by TSR and mostly marketed to gamers at first. They chose Elmore to do the artwork for them because he was one of the regular artists for TSR projects.

39. I haven’t gamed in years, but only through a lack of opportunity rather than any loss of interest. I’ve still got a stack of old Twilight 2000, Traveler (Mega, 2300, NE), GURPS, Space/Rollmaster and Paranoia stuff in storage including some White Dwarf magazines from before the time it became a Games Workshop mouthpiece.

    Always wanted to run their Little Lost Warbot game.

    I also spotted the name of someone I used to game with at University mentioned as a speaker in the Business Meetings at both of the last two Worldcons, including being used in the Bingo cards at the Spokane one.

40. As far as gaming, while I haven’t gamed with Jim (Henley), I’ve gamed with many of the same people he has gamed.

    And once upon a time, I hung out on a BBS (remember those?) called the Wargamer BBS, which was based out of Queens.

    Dang, now I want to pit a Klingon F5 in Starfleet battles against somebody.

41. @Aaron:

    I don’t think either of those facts minimizes the contribution of Elmore to a popular SF/F series of the 1980s. If there was a shared world series of 160 novels with no tie to gaming and Elmore had created the look and many covers for it, that would be regarded as notable work in SF/F art.

    Just as people remember Robert Asprin for creating and editing Thieves World, Elmore should be acknowledged for Dragonlance along with creators Margaret Weis and Laura and Tracy Hickman. It had a footprint that went beyond gaming into SF/F.

42. I don’t think either of those facts minimizes the contribution of Elmore to a popular SF/F series of the 1980s.

    Sure, he contributed to Dragonlance, but the series didn’t really have much in the way of legs outside of people who were already in gaming or who were familiar with gaming. It would be very easy for someone to be a fantasy fan who was not a gamer and completely miss his work.

    If there was a shared world series of 160 novels with no tie to gaming and Elmore had created the look and many covers for it, that would be regarded as notable work in SF/F art.

    Except the work wasn’t one with no tie to gaming. It is also hard to tell just how popular the series was – it sold well enough that TSR kept publishing more novels, but then again, TSR was really terrible at figuring out what novels were worth following up and and which weren’t, as evidenced by the fact that massive book returns from bookstores to their fiction department is what finally drove the company to bankruptcy in the 1990s (that and Williams’ obsession with pushing the Buck Rogers RPG that no one wanted).

    None of this is to minimize Elmore’s art, or his contribution to fantasy art, but rather to point out that it would have been really easy for someone to be an SFF fan in 1980s and 1990s and still be completely unfamiliar with his work.

43. if anyone here actually attends Dragon Con, it would be great if there were a way for non-puppy attendees to register some kind of push back on this. At least at the moment, about ten puppies just joined the dragon con facebook page just to attack me.

44. I spoke to a TSR sales rep at the height of the boom, who said that the main target of the books wasn’t people playing the games but people who no longer gamed, but if they could keep an emotional attachment, might game again once their kids could be relied on to sleep through the night.

45. rcade:

    “The Dragonlance novels were as much a literary project as a gaming one, and the look of that entire line and many of the early covers were by Elmore.”

    Did anyone who wasn’t into D&D read Dragonlance?

46. Must say I was amused at the reactions of people defending their nerdhood after accusations that they were not gamers. No one likes to be called a fake geek.

    Cant speak for other and dont know if your comment was made in jest, but at least part of the reaction was to show that the notion “The people here dont know anything about games and yet they critise choices in the DragonCon nominees” is just another episode of “If you dont have the same taste as me you either lie or dont know the things were talking about.”

    I would argue that people who name the publisher, but not the designer/author of their nominated games, is not really a gamer – but that may just be me…
    (and I would have even contacted the winners, but that didnt seem to fit to the intention of the award)

47. I read Dragonlance and every TSR book I could lay my hands on as a kid – and I’ve never played an RPG in my life.

    I may not be typical.

48. Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman’s novels sold 22 million copies as of 2004. Dragonlance made TSR one of the most successful SF/F publishers in the U.S. in the 1980s.

    I don’t want to oversell the point, but if an avid reader of fantasy in the 1980s told me she had never heard of Dragonlance I’d be surprised.

    This conversation has reminded me of the embarrassingly long amount of time I thought Tracy Hickman was female.

49. Certainly in the UK, the TSR novels had whole shelves to themselves in e.g. Waterstones, but therein lies the problem – they ended up being shelved separately so they were less visible to standard SF fans. Which is a pity because there were some real gems in amongst the hordes of trilogies.
    I’m not convinced I would have heard of Elmore if I wasn’t a D&D fan.

50. I spoke to a TSR sales rep at the height of the boom, who said that the main target of the books wasn’t people playing the games but people who no longer gamed, but if they could keep an emotional attachment, might game again once their kids could be relied on to sleep through the night.

    Interesting. That approach worked on me in the 1990s when I became a parent, but it was the Forgotten Realms novels I read instead of Dragonlance. I was especially a fan of the Harpers series.

    I wouldn’t describe the books as great, but they rose above the “recounting of my game session” dreariness and were entertaining pulp.

    One of my favorite authors rose out of RPG design and fiction: the late and sorely missed Aaron Allston.

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