Both the Sad and Rabid Puppies heard from leadership today.
Someone tried to run ahead of the Sad Puppy pack, compelling Amanda S. Green to swat him with a rolled-up internet – “Sad Puppies 5 and recommendation lists” at Mad Genius Club.
Anyway, this morning, the BP rising bit came in the form of a private message from a friend of mine. We are in a number of groups together on Faceplant. In one of those groups, someone had posted a notice with the header of “Sad Puppies 5 Suggestions.” Now, that got my eyes open real quick because the person posting it wasn’t Sarah [Hoyt] and, the last I heard – which was last night – Sarah was the one coordinating SP5. So, with coffee starting to brew, I figured I’d go see what I had missed overnight…
So, if you woke around 0630 CST to the sound of loud thumping, I apologize. That was me pounding my head against the wall. After reading the post my friend warned me about, I saw why. And I saw red. And I made the mistake of taking to Faceplant to write a response – still before coffee. I should have waited. Then I could have made a more detailed response, complete with link. As it was, it took a couple of posts and I’m still not sure I got my point across….
So, let’s be very clear. The New Year is here and with it comes the time when we need to start thinking about the books we read and whether we feel they are worthy of being nominated for any of the various awards being offered this year. Be it the Hugo, the Dragon, the Rita or whatever, it is something we need to keep in mind and, if we are so moved, we need to nominate them for the appropriate award(s).
It also means we are going to start seeing folks saying they are “making a little list”. Some will follow through with their lists and keep a running tally. Others will simply have a single post where you can add your comments. What they do is up to them – up to a point. However, when they start implying they are involved with something they aren’t, or when they seem to be stepping up and taking control of something they have not been involved in, then they have crossed the line.
To preempt further problems with overeager helpers before the new Sad Puppies 5 website goes up, Green has directed those interested to make their current recommendations in comments on a new post at the old site —
In the near future, this site will be shut down and a new site for Sad Puppies 5 will go live. In the meantime, if you have any books, movies, etc., you think award-worthy, please list them in the comment section. Your recommendations will be migrated to the new site when it is ready.
As for Declan Finn’s “Sad Puppies 5 suggestions” at A Pius Geek, had he chosen any other headline the post would have been indistinguishable from the awards recommendations everyone else is writing this month in which their own books feature prominently.
However, Finn says he felt the need to add the following paragraph – not because of Amanda S. Green’s post, but in response to hearing privately from “770 morons.”
EDIT: FOR THE READING BEREFT — APPARENTLY, THE USUAL CROWD AT FILE 770 CAN’T READ — I MUST PUT IN AN EVEN BIGGER NOTE HERE. I’M NOT IN CHARGE OF SP5. THE FOLLOWING IS, IN PART, A GUIDE FOR MY RECOLLECTION, SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO WILL BE VOTING, AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO GUIDE MY VOTING. APPARENTLY, SOME PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO HAVE FIGURED THIS OUT FROM THE BELOW. THAT IS ALL.
The Rabid Puppies also received marching orders today from Vox Day at Vox Popoli — “Rabid Puppies 2017”.
While I will certainly be making my 2017 recommendations soon – particularly for Best Series – I would NOT recommend anyone to register [for the Worldcon]. As the God-Emperor Ascendant [his nickname for Trump] demonstrated so masterfully, there is a time to press forward and there is a time to sit back and see how things play out. Now, obviously, those of us who are already registered can, and should, nominate, but there is no sense in wasting money that might be more effectively utilized elsewhere on Worldcon this year.
Let the SF-SJWs do their happy dances and celebrate the success of EPH, little realizing that in adopting it, they have done exactly what we intended in pursuit of our long term objective. Let’s face it, thinking through the logical consequences of their actions has never exactly been their strong suit. It’s bewildering that they genuinely appear to believe that we did not anticipate their changing the rules, even though I said right from the very start that they would have no choice but to do so if we were successful.
Even if Day’s readers refrain from joining Helsinki, those who were members of MidAmeriCon II or have joined the San Jose Worldcon (2018) by the end of this month are still eligible to nominate, so it is not unlikely the Rabid Puppies may exert their influence over the composition of this year’s final Hugo ballot. To what extent they can do so remains to be seen, depending on their own numbers and the impact of EPH rules changes in the first year of operation.
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*sigh*
That is all.
So some are more equal than others? Or to Pogo, ‘We have the enemy and he is us.’ Sigh indeed.
I think I’ll back to listening to the lovely audiobook of The Lathe of Heaven that the publisher sent my way…
[rhetorical] Do you think if I made a post entitled “Hugo 2017 Suggestions” I’d get pushback from Worldcon members?[/rhetorical]
One wonders if they’ve learned form the reverse troll TaeKwonDo mastery of the Tingley One, and if they’ll just go for straight up representations of character. Also if they learned not to nominate people who don’t buy into the puppy ethos who later turn them down.
Probably not.
I think I will add “770 Moron” to my nametag at ConFusion next weekend.
Dear Puppies reading this, whomsoever you may be:
If the past few years have hooked your attention on the Hugos, then I urge you: nominate the books and stories that you love. Don’t nominate stuff you haven’t read; and don’t nominate things out of cruelty or mockery. Nominate what you love; I welcome you with open arms.
I may not like what you nominate. I might hate what you nominate. That’s OK. I dislike or hate lots of things that lots of people nominate — and that’s OK, because I’m one person in a crowd of thousands. If nominations went my way most of the time – any one person’s way, most of the time – then we wouldn’t need ’em. Pretty much everybody dislikes a bunch of stuff that gets nominated; coming to grips with stuff that isn’t your own favorites is a lot of what the Hugos are about.
So, I might not love your nominations. But I’ll love you. I’ll love you for voting your heart, for wanting to be a part of the award and of the community, and for choosing sincerity over strategy.
I don’t speak for everyone, and I wouldn’t if I could. But for myself: Puppies, if you want to participate, make it a vote for what you yourself loved.
Or, accept the Hugos as Not Your Thing, and that’s perfectly fine too.
Happy Hugos, y’all.
Well, if the intention for Sad Puppies 5 is to be SP4 but with an added Dragon Award focus then I wish them well.
And if the intention for Rabid Puppies is to head off into the sunset congratulating themselves on their victory, then I will happily watch them go.
We have a Hugo awards with improved participation, extra efforts to crowdsource recommendations and help nominators, and some good rules changes to protect them from future slating. The only thing is not to be complacent on that front and assume that the problems have gone away – there’s still a rump of VDs followers with nomination rights this year, and in the future well, once the internet has seen a BoatyMcBoatface work once it doesn’t forget it. Finishing the job and leaving a robust system that will handle future problems without two years of business meetings will surely take a lot off everyone’s minds.
Standback – I wish there were a way to +1, Like, Mark, Upvote, what-have-you your post above. Well said, and thank you.
This moron also agrees with Standback.
VD really is an odious little twit, isn’t he? I guess his Trump appreciation is the admiration from one jumped-up conman to another. The main difference is that Trump has parlayed being a failed businessman into being president elect, and VD is spending time outside the US for tax reasons.
Though, like Ronda Rousey, he has us right where he wants us.
Hopefully SP5 comes up with some overlooked (by me, at least) suggestions I can take a look at. Though if it follows last year’s process I don’t really think it’s a slate anymore.
Here’s hoping there isn’t a ballot full of puppycrap.
@Soon Lee–
Oh, I think they’ve got a legitimate complainthe, about Finn seemingly trying to hijack the Sad Puppies name. They built it, they value it, and who is Declan Finn to them? How ridiculous it seems to us isn’t really the point here.
If he’d called it either “Hugo Suggestions” or “Dragon Suggestions,” as OGH said, then it would be no different from any of a multitude of award suggestion discussions. But he didn’t.
Warning: This poster may be only marginally coherent.
Reading into the comments at MGC and Declan’s blog, looks very much like the former are fielding off an “enthusiastic” takeover from the latter. Shame I’ve got too much Hugo reading to do to spend time on third hand internet drama…
I agree with Standback. Godspeed to all puppies who are reading and nominating their favourites for any award they choose.
Apparently, Finn is one of the “reading-bereft morons” who is unable to read the Hugo category definition for Best Related Work.
There seems to be some sort of iron law at MGC where you can’t link to the writing that is being engaged, or, quite often, even to identify who wrote it. That ambiguity leads to a situation where you’re never quite sure of the contours of the argument or the accuracy of the representation of their opponent. Often, when you do discover the source, it becomes clear that the argument has been substantially misrepresented. Unfortunately, I think that this is a byproduct of the refusal of citation, which leads to a form of writing that refuses to substantially engage with the structures of argumentation presented by an opponent and, consequently, leads to sloppy and bad argumentation, marked by inaccuracies and logical fallacies. This form of engagement seems to extend beyond the conversations about the Hugos and seems to inform all of the argumentation that I have seen on the site. (Admittedly, a somewhat limited selection.)
Robert Wood: a form of writing that refuses to substantially engage with the structures of argumentation presented by an opponent and, consequently, leads to sloppy and bad argumentation, marked by inaccuracies and logical fallacies. This form of engagement seems to extend beyond the conversations about the Hugos and seems to inform all of the argumentation that I have seen on the site.
One of the most bizarre things about the Puppies is their repeated claims of being professional writers, while consistently making blog posts (on MGC and on their own blogs) which are consistently unprofessional in terms of logic, articulacy, and even basic grammar and spelling — and then wondering why so many people don’t consider them “professional” writers.
It’s almost as if they’re following the 419 scam strategy of baiting the hook with the most-obviously-stupid material possible, to ensure that the only people who will bite and hang on to the line are so clueless that they’ll be followers and fans forever.
I’ve always loved the RCA logo.
The dog with the Gramophone is named Nipper.
Standback – bravo/a. Well said.
Here is the quote that jumped out at me…. ” And that, my friends, is a problem and one we don’t need to be dealing with.”
I have thought that for a few years now.
The one that jumped out at me:
Reminds me of something, but durned if I can think of what.
SPOILER ALERT:
Chccvrf orva’ chccrq.
Ah, sweet irony.
He should wrest it from them or burn it to the ground. Or try to.
Apparently Timothy the Talking Cat is not the only one pissed off about Finn’s failure to make the 2016 Hugo longlist.
I do have to laugh — and laugh, and laugh — about the Puppies’ outrage at someone pulling a Sad Puppies on them.
It’s too bad that they are so un-self-aware that they will never recognize the symmetry — or the irony — of the situation.
Finn’s blog post is entirely in line with his behaviour last year: He attempts to slate the sad puppies, so he can then get the sad puppies to help him with slating actual awards.
If someone writes a blog post titled “Hugo Award recommendations”, that’s generally not seen as a claim to be in command of the Hugo Award. Although I can see how some of the phrasings in the post could be seen as a claim about it, in particular considering Finns previous interest and the relative silence of last year’s SP admins.
Also, it’s slighly ironic how Finn berates “File 770 morons” for interpreting the article as a claim to SP leadership, when Amanda Green is in fact the only person to clearly interpret it that way. Admittedly Finn claims in the comment that he added the note after recieving “personal contact 770 morons”, and while being unaware of Greens article. But even if that’s true, he’s still saying that Green’s interpretation of his post is moronic and a sign of not being able to read.
If Finn actually was contacted privately about this, it wouldn’t have been from a regular Filer — they’d have just posted a link here, as other Filers did.
No, I think that’s just him backpedaling on his original faux claim that it was File770, rather than MGC, who’d accused him of trying to hijack SP5.
(cues singalong of “The Filers Support Me In Email”)
Damnit, the Sad Puppies are a groundswell community lead action and not in any sense a sekrit conspiracy trying to hijack the awards, and so you’ve damn well got to do it the way I say you should.
I doubt many posters on here follow the activities of Declan Finn particularly closely (except maybe Camestros, because he’s weird that way).
It may perhaps be wishful thinking as the Puppies are desperate for the attention of people outside their clique.
Yeah, I also think that’s backpedalling. The thing is: If he’s trying to stay on good terms with the SP leadership (which I assume he wants) it’s an extremely weak backpedalling. His note in the beginning strongly implies that anyone who interprets his article as a claim to leadership is stupid and can’t read. And that accusation clearly applies to Green – regardless of whether it also applies to some mystery Filer. Being lumped in with Filers is, if anything, likely to make Green more pissed at Finn, not less.
(As an additional point: If a Filer actually did reach out to Finn, they would almost certainly ask something like “so does this mean you’re in charge this year?” – which does not warrant the kind of angry response Finn gives. An accusation of hijacking can only come from a SP insider, i.e. someone who knows that last years trio haven’t passed the bat.)
@Kurt Busiek–
Oh, indeed. I love the irony.
Translation: I saw that most of the Rabid support from the 2016 nominations vanished in the final vote due to coasting on previous memberships, and EPH will make us look even weaker, so I’ll pretend it happened because I expressly ordered my 100% loyal followers to ‘sit back’ six months after they apparently sat back.
Except what Vox ‘anticipated’ was Worldcon changing the rules to subjectively discriminate against them so they could have ‘proof’ of being persecuted and revise the narrative away from their original flimsy arguments, and instead Worldcon used a solution that doesn’t single them out or put any additional burden on nominators, so they come away with nothing to show for it.
@howloon
It’s the Aristotle solution! 🙂
Does anyone else read Beale’s post and picture the last few Rabid Puppies on a rooftop in Helsinki, desperately trying to get the last helicopter out after their glorious leader declared victory with honor?
That’s true and even I didn’t see this coming.
Looking at the original post from DF, the Mad Genii are overreacting. It is really difficult to see it as claiming to be an official SP5 list and the title “Sad Puppy 5 Suggestions” has “Suggestions” right there in the title.
Blaming people here for his troubles seems even more odd though.
More Declan http://www.declanfinn.com/2017/01/rumors-bargains-and-lies.html
Added Hoyt https://madgeniusclub.com/2017/01/11/sad-puppies-gate-keeping-and-we-did-build-this/
Unfortunetly I blog in German (and wbout boardgames) or I would start all blog posts in 2017 with “Sad Puppies 5:”
I might still do. Too tempting…
Sad Puppies 5: Fusionsmasse bewegt sich
Sad Puppies 5: Medien und Brettspiele Teil 2
…
What is he on about!?
Looking at the original post from DF, the Mad Genii are overreacting.
Hoyt’s post is hilarious. It essentially says “We’ve been accused of gatekeepers, but we totally aren’t. Now let me describe what we do (which is actually gatekeeping), but it is gatekeeping that is completely okay”. All that plus a lot of incoherence with some added “woe is me” as a bonus.
I can’t make head nor tail of it. I can only assume that both in DF’s posts and MGC posts we are simply seeing the iceberg above the water line with assorted Facebook exchanges and rumours occurring elsewhere.
Do we have a Migly amongst us? I don’t remember a Migly.
Re: irony. “We haven’t had any irony here since about, uh, ’83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at.”
Re: Nipper. For a short time in the 90s, there was also a smaller dog named Chipper. It was a great pleasure to hear Patrick Stewart narrating commercials where he got to grandly say, “Nipper and Chipper.”
(Raises hand.)
Peer Sylvester: I had Google Translate help me with turning this idiomatic English expression into German. I hope it makes sense….
Sad Puppies 5: Beißen ihre eigenen Schwänze
Ah, Mi(ke)gly(er), the penny drops.
So, MGC write blogs condemning Finn but refuse to name him, and Finn blogs about refusing to read it, and mysterious people say allegedly rude things about Finn…but it’s all our fault? Huhwah?
I have a very hard time believing a Filer wrote (anonymously or otherwise) to Finn to chastise him. I know in my case, at least, I tend to avoid Finn’s blog, ever since his amazingly dull Sad Puppies “parody” story that was gamed onto the Hugo shortlist.
Herding puppies: adorable mental picture, less than adorable reality.
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ’em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
It’s amusing in a poleaxed way that the Sad Puppy leadership walks right up to the idea that “maybe we didn’t trademark Sad Puppies but we made it* and it’s ours and no one can coopt it,” while their whole existence thus far has been a desperate attempt to wrench the Hugo trademarks away from Worldcon and insist that Worldcon’s members and voters have to be stepped on and overruled and gamed out so that the _proper_ people (the Pups) get to choose what goes on the ballot rather than the people who made it* and own it and run it.
*and their heirs, Jor-El! Their heirs!
And they keep returning to the idea that the Hugos are meant to award that which is best in SF and fantasy, and conveniently leave out “as chosen by Worldcon members,” which is as surely a part of the definition as that the Oscars are chosen by MPAA members and the Golden Globes are chosen by the Hollywood Furrin Press Association and the Nobels are chosen by the Nobeloweenies, etc.
All of them are seeking to honor that which is best in their target fields, but they’re all chosen by the body that’s delegated to do the choosing, under rules set by the owners of the awards. None of them say, “Well, we set this up and run it, but if someone else feels strongly that our choices don’t match their tastes, we’ll keep running it but only award what those someone elses want.”
“No no no, you can’t take over what we built to take over what someone else built! Taking over what someone else built is for us to do to others, not for others to do to us!”
Eesh. Participate and vote like everyone else who’s eligible, you clowns. But if you go all guerrilla to try to force your will on things, you’ve lost all standing to object to someone doing it to you.
Thanks, Mike! Now I just have to make that title work for a post about boadgame design… bonus points if I can insert DFs name in it somewhere…
That Hoyt post is amazing.
Mike Glyer: I had Google Translate help me with turning this idiomatic English expression into German. I hope it makes sense… Sad Puppies 5: Beißen ihre eigenen Schwänze
I’m guessing that what comes out of Google Translate on that isn’t quite what you put in.
Hoyt: I don’t know how much of this is intentional, and how much was just the poster being stupid, in the sense that his blog posts are normally so scattered you have to read tea leaves to find out what he’s saying… his tendency to blog posts his own mother couldn’t interpret
The irony is so thick here, you would need an axe to cut it. 😀
File770, the Monster Morons
Oh goodness. When Hoyt is saying your posts stray from the point a bit, you know you’ve got a problem.