90 thoughts on “MACII Business Meeting August 19

  1. Recess over; Electronic Signature for Hugo Site Selection. Provides ability to do it; doesn’t force it.

    Speaker points out there is overwhelming desire for this.

    Apparently the anonymity of site selection votes is ? More important than the anonymity of the Hugos?

    Speaker concerned that it will lead to Hugo nomination style packing.

    Speaker points out that stamps are not hard to get. Such packing could happen now.

    Speaker points out some real world jurisdictions are requiring electronic now.

    Speaker points out that friendships can break up over site selection (? Okay–this is obviously a community thing).

    Speaker points out that mundane courts use electronic documents and maintain privacy so why not conventions?

    Speaker points out he has been involved in site section–believes that the privacy issues are real and different from those of a court which enter the public record.

    Speaker points out that electronic signatures can be dissociated from ballots in multiple ways so that no living human sees them together.

    Now voting–electronic signatures is ratified.

    Some kind of parliamentary thing I do not understand… I think they are trying to make it possible to delay ratification by an extra year, but they are referring it to the nitpicking and flyspecking committee.

    The committee voted against, everyone else voted for, motion passes; delay method is referred to nitpicking and flyspecking committee.

    New Business:
    Best series. Report of committee detailed to solve re-eligibility issues. Committee things award is like hall of fame for series, so winners should be excluded. However if all nominees were excluded, you’d run out of series pretty quickly. So they want winners excluded but nominees still eligible in following years.

    Sounds very sensible as far as it goes.

    ——————-
    Committee thought that the description could be clearer; the amendment rewording the intent passed reasonably easily.

    Now speaker in favor of Best Series: this brings Hugos more in line with state of publishing series.

    Point of info from someone on committee that clarified wording. What happens if author writes multiple series–yes, author could win for two different series.

    Speaker against notes reading time issue (read 15 books to read one series!), and frequent flyer issue (particular author on every 2 years until wins.)

    Speaker in favor served on best series jury in Australia –best series ended up recognizing different authors ‘ works than best novel.

    Speaker against questioning how categorize Pratchett’s work–sub series?

    Speaker from committee says “Hugo Nominators Figure That Out.”

    Speaker against says what if author writes crossover novel between 2 of that author’s series after both series have won Best Series Hugos?

    Speaker from committee says Hugo Nominators Figure That Out.

    Proposed Amendment Sunset Clause 2021. Passed quickly with high majority.

    Best Series passed for first passage.

    5 minute recess

  2. Cally: try using one of your teeshirts as an outer pillowcase to protect your face from direct contact with the hotel pillows? Dunno if it would help, but it can’t hurt…

    Thanks, I will try that tonight. At least, for the first time in 4 days, I did not wake up with a pounding headache — so obviously, last night’s margaritas worked! 😀

  3. Okay missed part for bathroom break that extended beyond recess but December is good enough passed (have to get membership earlier to vote.)

    And now moving up defining North America (references to continental drift/plate tectonics that caused much laughter.)

    Issue is that if WorldCon happened in Hawaii current we would have to have a NasFic. So question is should we define North America to include Hawaii?

    Allowed an extra 2 minutes of people asking questions of Kevin Standlee.

    Speaker against points out it will extinguish some Fannish whimsy over whether Rekjavic is in North America.

    Fedora guy opposes the amendment, wants it decided on a case by case basis

    Motion passes: North America includes Hawaii.

    Round of applause for sign language interpreter and transcriber.

    Informal Q and A over EPH and EPH+ will occur here at 1pm.

    Various other committee meetings announced.

    12:48 meeting adjourned for the day.

  4. I’m deeply torn on the YA concept. What is YA anyway?
    The Hugo Awards have traditionally defined themselves entirely by medium, not by message. Does YA require one to judge a book (assume that this is for novel) according the marketing choices of the publisher, the age of the protagonists, the amount of sex in the book? Is Enders Game a YA novel – immature protagonist, mature themes? Does defining a Hugo Award by a non-objective criterion such as audience pave the way for Hugo Award for MilSF, for Horror?
    Could it justify a “Hugo Award for Best Work from a Neo-Nazi Tax Exile, Now Will You Please Take Your Prize and **** Right Off?” Would that be a price worth paying?

    I ask mainly as Devil’s Advocate. My main instinct is for More Fun.

  5. Since the YA book award is not a Hugo it doesn’t open up the door for those problems. 😉

    It’s a book not a novel for a reason.

    Read Rachael Acks live blogging as well as the full text from the committee to get further answers. So much Devil’s Advocate has been done over this award over the last couple of years while the committee has worked hard to find a good way to make it happen at an ongoing glacial pace I’m not too worried about others using it to justify adding more specialized categories.

  6. nickpheas asked:

    I’m deeply torn on the YA concept. What is YA anyway?
    The Hugo Awards have traditionally defined themselves entirely by medium, not by message. Does YA require one to judge a book (assume that this is for novel) according the marketing choices of the publisher, the age of the protagonists, the amount of sex in the book? Is Enders Game a YA novel – immature protagonist, mature themes? Does defining a Hugo Award by a non-objective criterion such as audience pave the way for Hugo Award for MilSF, for Horror?

    That is the very debate which has been raging for years and years, and that is why the YA committee settled on the not-a-Hugo solution.

    Ninja’d by Tasha Turner!

  7. Eric Franklin said:

    Today seemed less contentious than yesterday.

    Most of the really contentious stuff got delayed to Sunday.

  8. Hugos involve lots of terms that are defined by a non-objective criterion – most obviously, ‘science fiction’, but also ‘related’ and, arguably, ‘fan’. (There are some objective criteria which make a thing definitely not fanwork, but they leave lots of space for doubt about what is.)

    I think the way to define ‘YA’ is parallel to how we define ‘SF’: start by looking at what’s published as such, but don’t allow the publishers to rule the matter rigidly; if something has a clear similarity, let it in.

    We would need a clear and unquestionable criterion if being YA disqualified a thing from other awards, but making it a not-Hugo solves that.

    I do worry a bit – especially since the Locus kerfuffle – about whether people may object to our choices and say ‘Yes, but is this real YA? Does it properly reflect the YA field?’. My feeling is that we shouldn’t be too intent on reflecting the field, and it makes sense to give an award to YA books with wider appeal, the potential to cross boundaries, rather than those which committed YA fans see as central. But others may disagree with that.

  9. Regarding series: Was there an answer to the question of ‘when do we read it all’? And I do wonder about the Australian juror, because a jury is better able to make fine distinctions, to say ‘wouldn’t this go better here than here?’.

  10. The argument on the side in favor of best series is that people interested will likely be following some of the series already and will read a book or two from the other nominated series to see what they think.

  11. Um. Well, that’s what I did with Wheel of Time, so I don’t suppose I can object. I guess you can say that voting for a series is a bit like voting for a magazine, or a fan writer, where no one thinks you have to read everything; we vote on the basis of a sample. Though that would work better with some series than with others.

    Nevertheless, it does seem to me not altogether in the spirit of the Hugos, where it’s generally thought important that we consider and compare things, in order to rank them, rather than just voting for our favourite.

    There was a nice idea someone proposed a while ago, to separate nominations and voting, having nominations one year and voting the next (so lots of time to read the works). That assumed a different model for the award, though, where it’s for completed series and isn’t awarded every year. (A proposal along those lines was being discussed in 2014: I’m rather sad it never reached the Business Meeting.)

  12. Phooey! I ticked the freepin’ box yesterday, but haven’t received further comments. Attempt #2. :-9

  13. That reading-it-all problem was why I voted against Best Series. I have trouble keeping up as it is.

  14. @jonesnori/Lenore Jones

    That reading-it-all problem was why I voted against Best Series. I have trouble keeping up as it is.

    I know that feeling. The new issues of Asimov’s and Analog and Clarkesworld are now taking up space on my Kindle, because I haven’t finished last month’s issues, yet!

    Too much to read is such a great problem to have, though.

  15. @Tasha

    Yay series to be ratified at Worldcon 75. Helsinki business meeting will be another long one. O_o

    I’m already wondering how to explain to my Mom (who wants to come along and already has a membership) next year that I have to go to the business meeting in the morning, cause it’s important.

  16. @Cora
    Good luck. My husband is getting a kick out of my 2nd year tied to the iPad occasionally interrupting his work with news tidbits as if I were watching a major TV drama rather than a boring business meeting. LOL

  17. Tasha Turner on August 19, 2016 at 4:49 pm said:
    @Cora
    Good luck. My husband is getting a kick out of my 2nd year tied to the iPad occasionally interrupting his work with news tidbits as if I were watching a major TV drama rather than a boring business meeting. LOL

    Business meeting was a hoot.
    I would pay cash to observe.

  18. Listen, the Business Meeting to decide where Westercon 66 was going to be alternated between hoot and agony. Felt like The West Wing, except we serpentined instead of pediconferenced. Live Tweets, livestream, speechifying, frantic texting and calls — and that was to decide one issue for one regional con for one year. And I wasn’t even in on the all-night conference the night before, nor the consultation with any higher ups.

  19. I highly recommend the Business Meeting for anyone who likes nuts and bolts, but even if you don’t there are regular outbreaks of hilarity and the process is often quite entertaining.

  20. For the series Hugo, I think the best way to think about is: you don’t have to read it all. If you aren’t a series reader but need to vote anyway, a representative excerpt should provide a basis for judgement.

    The Hugo seems to put series books at a disadvantage If this allows us to consider and celebrate this type of writing while allowing the best novel to also focus better on singular works I think it will be good.

    If it doesn’t there is a sunset clause for 2020.

  21. Cheryl S.: I highly recommend the Business Meeting for anyone who likes nuts and bolts, but even if you don’t there are regular outbreaks of hilarity and the process is often quite entertaining.

    Yes, but… I’m not particularly impressed by Ben Yalow, who obviously finds making the proceedings vastly longer and more convoluted quite amusing to himself — without considering how incredibly inconsiderate he is being to many other members who would rather get the business taken care of, so that they can actually attend Worldcon programming. 🙄

  22. @JJ, er, um, yeah, I am going to be a little impolite in response. There is a small group of people, including but not limited to Ben Yalow, who take up a great deal of time with baseless objections, violations of parliamentary (autocorrect just spent half that word suggesting “Palin” for some strange reason) procedure and free floating cantankerousness.

    In other words, it’s been just like almost* every other large meeting I’ve attended. 😉

    * The only exception was a group that had an informal rule that if x people hadn’t spoken since the last time you did, you should keep it zipped awhile longer.

  23. jonesnori/Lenore Jones on August 19, 2016 at 3:01 pm said:

    That reading-it-all problem was why I voted against Best Series. I have trouble keeping up as it is.

    I had some concerns along those lines myself, but no one is actually required to vote in all Hugo categories. Before The Incredible Slate Creatures Who Stopped Thinking and Became Mixed-Up Zombies came along, there were several categories I had never voted in.

    Heck, I’m old enough to remember the days when, if you wanted to make an informed vote, you had to go out and and hunt down your own copies of all the nominated works! Which only encouraged me to skip some categories.

    So, assuming the various anti-slate measures work well enough (and I have a loose definition of “well enough”), so that I don’t feel compelled to vote in the category if I don’t want to, I’m think I’m fine with the Series Hugo.

  24. Xtifr, yes, that is a very good point. I don’t vote in the BDP-Long, not being a movie-goer, so why should I feel compelled to vote in Best Series?

  25. Thanks for the live blogging & other commentary!

    /meeting-stalk (I’ll regret this 😉 )

  26. I had some concerns along those lines myself, but no one is actually required to vote in all Hugo categories.

    Sure, but I think there is an expectation that a lot of people will vote in most. That’s implied by the 25% rule – if a category doesn’t generate enough interest that a substantial portion of the community votes on it, it doesn’t get an award. And that embodies the idea – which I think is intrinsic to the Hugos – that there is a community, considering the field, rather than just a lot of different groups of fans voting on the thing that interests them. And the question is whether there will be a lot of people qualified to vote on this one.

    I think this is a rather different case from BDP Long Form. There are people who aren’t qualified to vote on movies at all – I’m one of them – but the people who are qualified to vote are quite likely to have seen all five. Whereas even if you are a lover of series fiction, how likely is it that you will have read all five finalists? And if you haven’t, you won’t be able to do so in the time allowed. (That’s so, at least, if we’re talking about long series, and we do expect people to read the whole thing – and this is not just a piece of idealism: in some long series you have to have read the previous books to know what is going on, and have to be familiar with the characters to care about what is going on.)

  27. And regarding The Incredible Slate Creatures Who Stopped Thinking and Became Mixed-Up Zombies : it seems to me that the decisions of this business meeting show a striking optimism. They have voted to continue a category (Fancast) which is known for having relatively few nominators; to create a new category (YA) which may well have relatively few nominators; to create another category (Series) where relatively few people may be qualified to vote; and to abolish the 5% rule, which is a significant decision only if there is a serious likelihood of something with less than 5% being in the top five. All this doesn’t seem to fit the culture of ‘You must nominate as much as possible and vote in everything’ which we are in at the moment. (And EPH and 3SV won’t deliver us from that; they don’t beat slates automatically: they enable us to beat slates, given high enough turnout. They allow us to achieve results that are not too damaging, but they don’t remove the damage the slates have done to the culture, and allow us to go back to a situation where people nominate and vote only in areas that really interest them. The only way to achieve that is to make the slates go away.)

  28. More series thoughts (sorry):

    As others have pointed out before, the Hugos do not in fact altogether neglect series. (The last two Best Novel winners have belonged to series. There’s a fair chance this year’s winner will as well.) But the series they go for tend to be either relatively short series with a clear arc, or loose ‘same universe’ kinds of series, rather than the ‘ninety-first episode in the adventures of so and so’ kind. It seems to me that the ‘how can we read it all?’ problem tends to favour the same kinds of series – ones where either the series can be read quite quickly, or one doesn’t have to know the whole series to understand an individual work. So it’s quite likely the series award will often go to works of a kind that the Hugos tend to favour anyway.

    I wonder if this means that series works will be less likely to win Best Novel: people may prefer to wait for the end of the series and nominate that. (I know it’s not actually an award for completed series, but that seems the best time to nominate a series of the ‘short with a definite arc’ kind.)

    And finally, it strikes me that Worldcon 75 could create a one-off series Hugo, to see how well it works. (People kept saying that various Worldcons should do this for YA, but it seemed to me that this wouldn’t work because of the demarcation problem; if there was a YA Hugo they would have to change the qualifications for Best Novel, which of course individual Worldcons aren’t entitled to do. But that problem doesn’t arise with series.)

    I’ll now shut up (about series, at least).

  29. @Andrew M: I counted about 9 winners that were not first-in-series. I feel that’s significant. But first-in-series winners – maybe around 18, but I feel like that’s misleading; I don’t believe it was always clear it was the start of a series. E.g., did people expect sequels to The Forever War when it came out? Versus, say, Ancillary Justice, which everyone knew was the first in a trilogy. I didn’t try to count how many first-in-series won where people knew it was the start of a series (I don’t know, in some cases). Anyway, my point being … not sure what my point is, I just wanted to look at the data more??? 😉

    I think a series trial Hugo by a future Worldcon is a great idea – much better than what feels to me like a problematical permanent category.

    I’m really curious how Business Meeting folk will feel about the Series Hugo tomorrow. Hmm, let’s see, set alarm for 11 AM my time so I can follow along. . . .

  30. Whoops, I may have gotten this and another proposal confused, sorry!

    ETA: I very definitely got wildly confused on which items were passed and which were delayed. ::blush::

  31. Briefly, the feeling on the 5% rule was that it has turned out ti overly restrict short story nominations, because there are so many fine short stories that it is hard to achieve 5% of the ballots.

    The meeting seemed to feel that there had been enoigh interest in the fancast category to keep it going.

    Best Series and the YA Awad both have sunset clauses, I believe.

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