(1) DISCON III REACTIONS. Today’s decision by the 2021 Worldcon committee to remove Toni Weisskopf as a GoH (“DisCon III Removes Weisskopf as a Guest of Honor”) is being widely discussed.
Toni Weisskopf posted a concise response on Facebook.
The committee of Discon III approached me this week to discuss the allegations about Baen’s Bar that were posted at Patreon. Baen is conducting a thorough investigation, which we feel we cannot rush, and has taken down the Bar while we conduct the investigation.
I do understand the immediate appeal of Discon III wishing to act quickly to respond to their community. Today they informed me of their official decision to remove me as their Editor Guest of Honor.
While I strongly disagree with the committee’s decision, I will regretfully accede to their wishes.
These excerpts for the Scroll are primarily by authors who condemned the decision (except for the final one).
David Weber responded on Facebook.
So Toni Weisskopf has been formally disinvited by WorldCon and DisCon. Can’t say it was a surprise. I will however remind people of the personal policy I adopted years ago and reiterated in the case of ConCarolina and John Ringo. I will not attend a con which has disinvited a guest. You are always free to invite —or not—anyone you like. Any con which disinvites someone after the invitation has been issued and accepted, especially when they do so under pressure, however, does not deserve to be trusted by future guests.
He said more in the comments on his post, including —
Bob Eggleton made this comment —
Chuck Gannon also made a comment on Weber’s post, repeating one of his quotes linked here yesterday and extending it as follows:
…So Toni Weisskopf activated the most proactive, realistic option available to her: she closed the Bar, thereby ending any possibility that it might do further ostensible injury.
36 hours later, however, she was disinvited without any additional cause.
You will note, however, that no one asserted that she did not respond quickly enough. In fact, in disinviting her, there were no further/new discoveries added to those put forth in Mr. Sanford’s essay.
So what had changed? If the concom believes that 36 hours is enough time for her to resolve the matter completely, I once again point out that
a) any business person operating in the real world would *know* that is not enough time to conduct anything like a thorough review
b) in order to ensure that what Mr. Sanford reported could not expand or remain as a potential threat, SHE CLOSED THE WHOLE BAR DOWN.
If she had meant to stonewall, or not actually investigate the matter, she would not have taken the step of closing the Bar.
Do I repeat myself in this post? Assuredly so . . . because these are salient points which are being repeatedly, perhaps purposively, overlooked.
For anyone familiar with the musical Hamilton, cue “The Room Where It Happened” as we ponder “so what changed in 36 hours?”
Larry Correia shames the SMoFs in “An Open Letter To The Old Time Fans at WorldCon” [Internet Archive link].
…Then several years later, after the old controversy I caused had died off and most of us barbaric outsiders had said screw cheesy WorldCon and moved on with our lives, some of you still felt guilty for how you’d treated Toni, so you extended an olive branch. You offered her the Guest of Honor spot at your little convention. How nice. How fucking magnanimous.
Toni, being a far better human being than any of you could ever aspire to be, thought the offer over. She knew there was risks. She knew that she’d take heat from people on the right (and she has). Morons on my side of the political would call her a sell-out, quisling, traitor, boot licker, so on and so forth, and they did. She got attacked by the useless grifters on both sides, looking for hate clicks. But unlike you, Toni ignores the baying mob and always does what she thinks is the right thing to do. She looked at your peace offering, and said fine, If you want to try and mend fences, okay, I’ll take the heat, I’ll be your guest of honor. She was the bigger person.
She talked to me about her decision. I told her I understood, I wouldn’t do it, but I respected her call, but that she’d surely get yelled at by the idiots on both sides. She already knew, but she thought it was the right thing to do anyway. Because unlike you, Toni actually has a moral compass. Your moral compass is a windsock. Her one mistake in all this was assuming that any of you old time Smofs would have a spine….
A very large number of people today are reaching for rhetorical flourishes to complain about what happened. RS Benedict made this connection. (If you don’t recognize Isabel Fall’s name, run a search here. Also let it be noted that Weisskopf has been removed as GoH, not banned from attending.)
Mike VanHelder, an experienced conrunner, tried to understand the decision from a convention running perspective. As part of that he wrote this How It Should Have Ended scenario, in addition to other insights. Thread starts here.
(2) NO ONE TO FOLLOW. While we’re at it, let WIRED’s Angela Wattercutter tell you about “The Crushing Disappointment of Fandom”.
…When we really, truly admire someone, whether they’re an Avenger or Anthony Fauci, there’s a tendency to mimic their personality, even their morality. Media theorists call these bonds “parasocial relationships”; parents of kids with one too many Star Wars posters (probably) call it “over the top.” But the people in it, the ones who write fic and spend days making cosplay before the next convention, call it part of their identity, the fabric of who they are.
Until it’s not. Earlier this week, actress Gina Carano lost her job playing Cara Dune on The Mandalorian. The former MMA fighter had been facing criticism for months for her anti-science views on mask-wearing, mocking transgender-sensitive pronouns, and tweets about voter fraud. Then, on Wednesday, after she shared an Instagram story that suggested having differing political views was akin to being Jewish during the Holocaust, the hashtag #FireGinaCarano began to trend on Twitter. That night, Lucasfilm issued the following statement: “Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”
Carano’s comments are harmful for a lot of reasons, but they seem to carry an additional weight for fans. Cara Dune was a hero, someone who fought for people, a tough, competent female warrior in a genre often dominated by men. Fans looked up to Cara, and by extension Carano, but the actor’s comments on social media left one of those things harder to do….
(3) BY POPULAR DEMAND. The UK’s Daily Mail proclaims: “WandaVision: Fans CRASH Disney+ to stream latest episode”.
Viewers of WandaVision crashed Disney+ on Friday morning as the latest installment dropped on the streaming service.
There was a brief 10-minute outage in the early hours of Friday as episode seven of the Marvel Cinematic Universe-based series was made available, PEOPLE reports.
Fans expressed their frustration on social media after experiencing issues as they signed on in droves to catch the latest installment of Wanda and Vision’s Westview adventures.
(4) RECOVERED. Claire O’Dell has released a second edition of her award-winning River of Souls trilogy with new covers and updated text: River of Souls Series. The author blogged about the books here.
…Once Tor returned the rights to me, I decided to release a second edition, with new covers and updated text. I commissioned new artwork from the amazing Jessica Shirley. I badgered my long-suffering spouse into designing new covers. And I spent several months editing and proofreading the manuscripts. The e-books are now available at my on-line bookstore (here), individually or as a bundle, and will appear at all the usual vendor sites later this week….
(5) PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT. James Davis Nicoll helps us keep these two things straight: “Five SF Works Featuring Dyson Shells (and Not Dyson Swarms)” at Tor.com.
…There are at least two kinds of Dyson Sphere. The first—the one Dyson intended—is made up of a myriad of independently orbiting objects. While this presents an interesting traffic control challenge, the Dyson Swarm has the advantage that not only can it be built incrementally over a very long period, but the components are gravitationally coupled to the star in question.
The second option is a solid shell with the star in the middle….
Here’s one of James’ picks:
“Back to Myan” by Regina Kanyu Wang (2017)
Retrieved by the Union from certain extinction on the ice-encrusted world Myan, Kaya is somewhat less than entirely grateful. After all, the reason Myan was freezing in the first place was Project Saion, the Union’s vast energy-gathering structure blocking Myan from its star, Saion. While the Union did belatedly notice the Myan natives and rescue them, this didn’t come to pass until 997 out of every 1000 of Kaya’s species had perished in the cold. Still, the Union is very, very powerful, while the handful of Myans are not. There is nothing Kaya can do to save her home world. At least, that’s what the Union believes…
(6) GREG BEAR INTERVIEWED. Frank Catalano, who was SFWA Secretary back when Greg Bear was SFWA President, pointed out a good profile of Greg Bear in the Seattle Times today, including his thinking that his newest novel may be his last one, and the trouble he had in finding a publisher for it: “Lynnwood’s Greg Bear, stalwart of modern science fiction, starts writing his life story”.
The 69-year-old Lynnwood-based author and first-class raconteur still has a lot to say. He’s published four novels since aortic dissection surgery left him with a titanium heart valve six years ago and has plans for more. But he’s just not sure he wants to deal with the business of fiction publishing anymore after having a hard time finding a buyer for “The Unfinished Land,” eventually published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt imprint John Joseph Adams Books.
“If I had written it and no one wanted to publish it, what would I do right at that point?” Bear said. “I considered just retiring. And I think I’m still making that decision at this point.”
Catalano reacts: “It’s end-of-days when Greg Bear can’t find a publisher. Ack.”
(7) ENDLESS RIVER. “Doctor Who’s River Song Alex Kingston writes new novel” – Radio Times has the story.
… Alex Kingston is releasing a brand new River Song novel, taking the popular companion on a brand new adventure.
The book, entitled The Ruby’s Curse, promises to tell a thrilling story set in New York in 1939, featuring both River Song and her alter-ego Melody Malone. It is Alex Kingston’s first foray into writing Doctor Who fiction, following in the footsteps of Tom Baker, whose story Scratchman follows the escapades of the Fourth Doctor….
“Having absolutely no idea of the journey I would be taking with River Song when I first uttered those words, “Hello Sweetie,” I cannot begin to express how excited I am to be able to continue not only River, but Melody’s adventures on the written page,” she says.
(8) MEMORY LANE.
- 1961 — Sixty years ago at Seacon in Seattle, A Canticle for Leibowitz, a fix-up of three short stories published in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, written by Walter M. Miller, Jr. wins the Hugo for Best Novel. It was published by J. B. Lippincott. Other nominees that year were The High Crusade by Poul Anderson, Rogue Moon by Algis Budrys, Deathworld by Harry Harrison and Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon. Surprisingly this is the only award this novel won.
(9) BLACKBURN OBIT. Graphic designer “Bruce Blackburn, Designer of Ubiquitous NASA Logo, Dies at 82” reports the New York Times. He died February 1 at the age of 82,
…In 1975, NASA introduced the worm, a sleek sequence of winding red letters, and the logo quickly became a tangible symbol of a boundless space age that lay ahead.
“We did get what we set out to accomplish,” Mr. Blackburn said. “Anybody we showed it to immediately said, ‘Oh I know what that is. I know them. They’re really great. They’re right on the leading edge of everything.’”
But in 1992, a few years after the Challenger explosion, NASA dropped the worm and revived the meatball in a decision that was said to be intended to improve company morale.
Mr. Blackburn and other designers lamented the choice. “They said, ‘This is a crime. You cannot do this,’” he said. “‘This is a national treasure and you’re throwing it in the trash bin.”
“His design sensibility was offended by what happened,” his daughter said. “He thought the meatball was clumsy and sloppy and not representative of the future.”…
(10) TODAY’S BIRTHDAYS.
[Compiled by Cat Eldridge and John Hertz.]
- Born February 19, 1923 – Alan Hunter. Fan and pro artist; founded the Fantasy Art Society (U.K.); fifty covers, three hundred fifty interiors, for Banana Wings, Dream, Fantasy Tales, Matrix, Nebula, New Worlds, SF Chronicle, Vector, the Millennium Philcon Program Book (59th Worldcon), the LoneStarCon 3 Program Book (71st Worldcon). Artist Guest at Fantasycon 1981. Here is the Spring 53 Nebula. Here is an interior from the Mar 53 New Worlds. Here is an interior from Dream. Here is the Oct 86 SF Chronicle. Here is Vector 112. Here is Banana Wings 38. Our Gracious Host’s appreciation here. (Died 2012) [JH]
- Born February 19, 1937 — Terry Carr. Well-known and loved fan, author, editor, and writing instructor. I usually don’t list awards both won and nominated for but his are damned impressed so I will. He was nominated five times for Hugos for Best Fanzine (1959–1961, 1967–1968), winning in 1959, was nominated three times for Best Fan Writer (1971–1973), winning in 1973, and he was Fan Guest of Honor at ConFederation in 1986. Wow. He worked at Ace Books before going freelance where he edited an original story anthology series called Universe, and The Best Science Fiction of the Year anthologies that ran from 1972 until his early death in 1987. Back to Awards again. He was nominated for the Hugo for Best Editor thirteen times (1973–1975, 1977–1979, 1981–1987), winning twice (1985 and 1987). His win in 1985 was the first time a freelance editor had won. Wow indeed. Novelist as well. Just three novels but all are still in print today though I don’t think his collections are and none of his anthologies seem to be currently either. A final note. An original anthology of science fiction, Terry’s Universe, was published the year after his death with all proceeds went to his widow. (Died 1987.) (CE)
- Born February 19, 1963 — Laurell K. Hamilton, 58. She is best known as the author of two series of stories. One is the Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter of which I’ll confess I’ve read but several novels, the other is the Merry Gentry series which held my interest rather longer but which I lost in somewhere around the sixth or seventh novel when the sex became really repetitive. (CE)
- Born February 19, 1946 – Rosemary Ullyot, age 75. Early member of the Ontario SF Club. Fanzine Kevas & Trillium with Alicia Austin and Maureen Bournes. “Kumquat May” column in Energumen. Twice finalist for Best Fanwriter. [JH]
- Born February 19, 1957 – Jim Rittenhouse, age 64. Founded Point of Divergence, alternative-history apa. Guest of Honor at DucKon 12, Windycon 32. Judge of the Sidewise Award. Has read As I Lay Dying, Uncle Tom’s Cabin, Suetonius’ Twelve Caesars, Adam Bede, Lolita, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. “Why do I like fountain pens? The smoothness and ease of writing, the clarity and solidity of the line, the profound coloring and the strong saturation of the ink.” [JH]
- Born February 19, 1964 — Jonathan Lethem, 57. His first novel, Gun, with Occasional Music, a weird mix of SF and detective fiction, is fantastic in more ways that I can detail briefly here. I confess that I lost track of him after that novel so I’d be interested in hearing what y’all think of his later genre work particularly his latest, The Arrest. (CE)
- Born February 19, 1966 — Claude Lalumière, 55. I met him once here in Portland at a used book store in the the SFF section, and his wife wrote reviews for Green Man once upon a year. Author, book reviewer and editor who has edited numerous anthologies including two volumes of the excellent Tesseracts series. Amazing writer of short dark fantasy stories collected in three volumes so far, Objects of Worship, The Door to Lost Pages and Nocturnes and Other Nocturnes. Tachyon published his latest anthology, Super Stories of Heroes & Villains. (CE)
- Born February 19, 1968 — Benicio del Toro, 53. Originally cast as Khan in that Trek film but unable to perform the role as he was committed to another film. He’s been The Collector in the Marvel film franchise, Lawrence Talbot in the 2010 remake of The Wolfman, and codebreaker DJ in Star Wars: The Last Jedi. Let’s not forget that he was in Big Top Pee-wee as Duke, the Dog-Faced Boy followed by being in Terry Gilliam’s Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas as Dr. Gonzo which damn well should count as genre even if it isn’t. (CE)
- Born February 19, 1970 – Victor Ehikhamenor, age 51. Writer, visual artist including photography and sculpture. Exhibited in the first Nigerian pavilion at the Venice Biennale (57th Biennale, 2017). Here is I Am Ogiso, the King of Heaven. Here is The Unknowable (enamel & steel), Norval Foundation, Cape Town. Here is Hypnotic Lover. Here is Wealth of Nations, Nat’l Museum of African Art, Smithsonian Institution. Website. [JH]
- Born February 19, 1973 – Nikki Alfar, age 49. A score of short stories. Three Palanca Awards. Manila Critics’ Circle Nat’l Book Award. Co-editor, Philippine Speculative Fiction. Interviewed in Fantasy. [JH]
- Born February 19, 1984 – Marissa Meyer, age 37. Re-told Cinderella, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel, and Snow White in the Lunar Chronicles; the first, Cinder, MM’s début, was a NY Times Best-Seller; later Fairest, a prequel. Heartless has the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland. Half a dozen more novels, a dozen shorter stories. Introduction to Yolen’s How to Fracture a Fairy Tale. Has confessed to writing (under another name) twoscore pieces of Sailor Moon fanfiction. [JH]
(11) COMICS SECTION.
- Lio is always bizarre – this time it’s even funny.
- Non Sequitur chronicles the Alexa / Siri conspiracy.
- The Flying McCoys reveals that Superman buys outfits off the rack! (When they’re in stock.)
(12) HE’LL BE REMEMBERED. Milton Davis reports the GoFundMe was successful and that the headstone and monument for Charles R. Saunders’ grave have arrived. The grave of famous fantasy writer Charles R. Saunders was without a headstone until friends raised money for it.
(13) REPURPOSED AND FUNNY. [Item by rcade.] The paranormal fantasy novelist Richard Kadrey has been reading some obscure science fiction paperbacks from the golden age of the lurid cover. Authors include Supernova Jackson, Cliff Zoom and Brawny Magnum.
The titles of Kadrey’s novels in his Sandman Slim series would be right at home on a shelf with these classics. They include Kill The Dead, Aloha from Hell, Ballistic Kiss and King Bullet, which comes out in August.
He’s also the founder with cyberpunk author Bruce Sterling of the Dead Media Project, which sought to save obsolete and forgotten forms of media. But it died.
(14) NOT A FAN. Variety’s Caroline Framke is not amused: “’Superman and Lois’ Brings The CW Superhero Brand Back Down to Boring Earth: TV Review”.
…It makes sense on paper for a new show about Superman to fast forward through the stuff that’s been done to death in order to find some new way into the man, the myth, the legend. Why not make him a harried dad juggling apocalyptic threats with teenage boys, one of whom might have the same kind of powers as he does? The CW’s dads are already supernaturally hot, so hey, might as well lean into the brand. (Hoechlin, like Tom Welling before him, does not at all have a Christopher Reeve level of charisma to bring to the role — but to be fair, who does?)
But for all the logical storylines and character journeys that “Superman and Lois” includes, it nonetheless lacks the spark to make any of it very interesting. Despite solid efforts from Tulloch, Garfin, and especially Elsass to bring life to their stiff scenes, these Kents feel more stuck than striking
(15) DO YOU REMEMBER. [Item by Mike Kennedy.[ Hugh freakin’ Jackman does the “announcer guy“ voiceover for a movie teaser… Io9 points to “Reminiscence First Look: The Sci-Fi Mystery Romance Is Out 9/3”. The clip is in Hugh Jackman’s tweet:
[Thanks to Michael Toman, rcade, James Davis Nicoll, John Hertz, Danny Sichel, Jeffrey Jones, Andrew Porter, JJ, John King Tarpinian, Martin Morse Wooster, Steven H Silver, Frank Catalano, Cat Eldridge, and Mike Kennedy for some of these stories. Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editor of the day Chris R.]
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@peace is my middle name
The most pernicious nostalgia is for that which never was.
Nostalgia in general seems to be overcoming people’s self-defensive instincts. There’s a bunch of folks who are starting to look awfully untrustworthy and unlikable right now because they long for “good old days” of cultural conformity.
Those truncheons will not suffice against the waves of new folks.
Mr. Cadenhead: You didn’t answer my question, so let me repeat it. The Left has won the cullture war here. Discon will be a leftist convention, the cultural equivalent of a social democratic political party convention. Why aren’t you celebrating?
Vicki Rosenzweig: My views of Baen Books authors are irrelevant. My comments aren’t about me, they’re about you.
@TYP re David Weber; the thing I remember about him is he can be vastly charming and entertaining in person even while telling jokes about how liberals are only using poor people for their own gain. And gleefully speculating about how he was going to be crazy possessive over his daughters but his son was going to be someone else’s problem. Hopefully he was exaggerating for humorous effect or has learned and grown in the meantime and those kids are okay.
Anyway I guess my point was “charming in person” is going around a lot over there. Or maybe I should say going around a lot, full stop, since I don’t think it’s limited to conservative fandom.
@Martin, I think those comments are very much about you, what you see, and what you refuse to see. And the sort of fights you want to start, while disclaiming that you want to start them.
They certainly aren’t any kind of realistic view of Discon III.
@Cat: Tons of that, going around everywhere. My view of Rambo is that his books suggest I great deal of imagination and enthusiasm for the awful things he writes and jokes about; but again, you are right and interpersonal pleasantness covering a whole big heap of the Problem is pretty common, no argument.
Discon will be a leftist convention, the cultural equivalent of a social democratic political party convention.
The fact that you think “not supporting someone who lets violent insurrectionists plot on their website” is a “social democratic political party convention” says a lot about you, and none of it is good.
You’re not going to get a response to your question, because your question is filled with so many false premises that it doesn’t merit one.
Yeah. Given the reactions I’ve seen on social media, I think closing the entire Bar down instead of just the problematic subforums was designed to create outrage. Perhaps there were tech limitations–I’ve never gotten into the weeds when it comes to managing and moderating forums, and I’ve heard that the operating system has not been upgraded for years. All the same, I would think that it would be simple enough to freeze the members who had come on board since the November elections and check out their postings. Easy enough to hire someone to do that job and keep them on the job, or so I would think. That would be the scale of action I would expect from a responsible forum owner, not a complete shutdown, especially when there’s apparent evidence that other subforums were operating in a responsible manner.
That said, I wonder about the Baen author contracts, and what happens to individual intellectual property should the company be sued over problems arising from the bar, or other legal issues. I’d be kind of worried about that right now if I had sold a book to Baen. Maybe I’m just being overly cautious, though.
@Martin: If you weren’t talking about yourself, why did you say “I” and talk about what you hoped you were allowed to feel?
But, if you like, I Vicki Rosenzweig hereby give you permission to be depressed that Weisskopf won’t be a GOH at Discon. If you are depressed that people are taking a stand against authoritarian coups, white supremacy, and anti-Semitism, well, I can’t stop you.
But, seriously, you can’t expect me to be okay with anyone, you included, calling for mass murder on political and ethnic grounds. Do your own damn emotional labor, stop expecting women to do it for you, and don’t expect me to tell you it’s okay that people invaded the US capitol with Confederate flags and pro-genocide t-shirts.
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
I’d feel this way even if it wasn’t personal, but it is, on two or three axes,.
@Martin Wooster
When people don’t respond as expected it’s time to consider the possibility you have misjudged their motivations, in this case, specifically what they wanted.
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the general desires here might reasonably be modeled as follows:
1) Ideal—Baen forums were moderated all along by reasonable people who permitted plenty of venting about how stupid and evil liberals are but drew a hard line at speculations of how much fun it would be to murder people and how competent the posters would be at it, and how such murders could be carried out to greatest political effect. (Off the table, obviously, alas.)
2) Reasonably good—various options for face saving on Baen’s/DisCon III’s part as suggested by Mike VanHelder above.
3) Less good, still tolerable—Toni not made a guest in the first place (off the table, obviously, alas.)
4) Tolerable—Toni disinvited
5) Intolerable—Toni allowed to bring Baen’s baggage to her Guest of Honor position.
Perhaps people are not celebrating because while this outcome is tolerable and better than the other option remaining at this point, they would really have preferred options 1 or 2.
I must admit that I’m weirded out by the Baen’s Bar belief that cities in general in populated by liberals and therefore must be depopulated entirely. The level of ignorance this shows is quite stunning as it suggests they nothing about how a civilisation is organised. Do they know even notice that essential services like hospitals exist only in metropolitan areas? Or that most goods and services are distributed from metropolitan areas? Rural areas are wholly dependent upon metropolitan hubs.
Humanity ceases to exist if cities fall.
@Martin Wooster. It’s not a victory for the Left, it’s a massive own-goal for the Right.
That it is wrong to advocate terrorist attacks against US citizens, simply for their political views, should not be a controversial point, or one restricted to the Left.
That Toni Weisskopf – and you – seem to think otherwise is not in any way a victory for the Left or something to celebrate.
@Cat Eldridge: Civil society disappears without cities, not humanity. For those who’d rather rule in hell* than live in heaven, that’s a feature and not a bug.
*Or anywhere, really. They’ll make it hell in their own sweet time.
@Peace: I would have thought it clear to pretty much anybody what ‘fugghead’ meant irrespective of how much organized fandom they’d participated in.
Actually, Cat, now that I think about it–and now that my edit window has run out–you’re literally right: Humanity does go away without cities.
Humans without humanity. What a concept. I think I’ll stop now. I’m depressed.
When someone alluded on Eric Flint’s Facebook wall to the prospect of future violence — if you keep criticizing our calls to violence you’ll make us violent — Flint was asked if it was the kind of comment that requires moderation.
Flint responded:
@Martin: You must have heard more about Discon changes than I had, I thought they were just dropping a single guest of honor. If it turns out they’re going to be something like a Wiscon-on-the-Potomac, then good for them, but it’s news to me.
@Cat Eldridge: I think their use of ‘cities’ is not especially coherent and if pressed many of them would say that “of course we didn’t mean that kind of thing” (and there’s probably at least a few who live in places that they don’t consider ‘a city’ but the rest of the board does).
Discon will be a leftist convention, the cultural equivalent of a social democratic political party convention.
@Martin Wooster, you seem to have set up a divide in which one is either on the side of Weisskopf or a leftist in all things and all ways. There’s a big ol’ excluded middle there.
@Jake, I’m willing to bet they aren’t plotting the destruction of Muncie, Indiana. Gary? Not improbable.
Bob Eggleton clearly knows nothing at all about Ross’ brief encounter with LonCon.
I wasn’t going to say any more, but I will add this: for the record, I’m a libertarian, which means I’m just as opposed to violence and the use of force to achieve political goals as you are. I hope every protester who entered the Capitol in January gets the prison sentences they deserve. If you want to know where I am politically, I’ll say two words: George Will. That’s where I am.
But I’m not giddy with delight that Discon will be a leftist convention like you are.
@Jake, I think their ability to think everyone in the big evil cities who should die, while still saying “we didn’t mean all the cities” hinges on whether they think said city is full of the herrenvolk or not.
Your question is based on a cartoonish premise about liberals and Worldcon.
It’s not a cause for celebration that a pro worthy of being honored won’t be honored. I think it is a bummer, but it seems like one that Toni Weisskopf could have avoided by immediately taking actions that any responsible discussion site moderator would have taken. When your site goes off the rails and disturbing users set up shop there — which happens — you apologize and announce that you’re taking care of it.
Refusing to say she’d do anything about the problem put DisCon in the position of taking a lot of heat from concerned congoers and others in SF/F without being able to tell anybody it was being addressed.
As for Worldcon becoming a leftist convention because of this, do you believe that a guest of honor like Eric Flint could have allowed calls for violence to proliferate on his forums without it becoming a problem for the con? This situation is about lax moderation and con safety, not about politics.
(Before that last graf is misunderstood, I know that Flint’s forums have a reputation for being well-moderated.)
@Martin Wooster–
Discon will be a “leftist convention” only if you mean, only leftists would think openly suggesting ways to kill large numbers of liberals, and bragging about how good they’d be at doing that, is objectionable and dangerous behavior, especially in the aftermath of the January 6th insurrection.
I can only conclude that, although you say you’d like those insurrectionists to get prison time, you’d have been outraged if, before January 6, anyone with the authority to do so, had either seriously investigated the insurrectionists’ plans, which they were making rather openly on social media (that would have been law enforcement doing that), or kicked them off their social media platforms for violating the terms of service (the social media platforms themselves.)
Come on, Martin. Saying the comments here demonstrate “giddy with delight” is a gross mischaractization.
If law enforcement has in fact been looking into Baen’s Bar since Jan 6th and TW been warned of this, she may actually have welcomed Sanford’s report, as it provided her a needed excuse to shut down the forums to avoid legal liability, AND it actually provided a convenient SJW scapegoat to cast the blame on for the closing of the forums, instead of her having to speak up or act against the violent fantasizing of the fanboys of the extreme right-wing of her author’s stable. She gets to shut down the forums without offending the likes of Tank Marmot, and Sanford gets to take their blame and hostility that would otherwise accrue to her for it! Win-win!
If such was her thought process, while I have to admire the startling depth of such cynicism, I don’t think it’s worthy of a GoH spot.
And on that note, I just bought my supporting membership at DisCon. I hasten to assure Martin that I feel no particular joy in doing so. It was an ugly avoidable incident all round, but rescinding her GoH invite was the only decent thing to do at this point.
WSFS has been using Robert’s Rules of Order for ages…and so does the DSA! Coincidence!? I THINK NOT. /sarcasm
@Martin, if you are indeed a libertarian, why are you looking to others to define how you should feel? Your emotions should be your personal responsibility, and it is no one else’s job to define them for you.
As for fugghead, you put almost anything in front of -head and it sounds like an insult. Much like how any random noun delivered in a Scottish accent becomes an insult. (“Ye daft spoon!” is still my favorite.)
@Jake
Yes, when you see or hear “fugghead” it is obvious what it means. Many slang terms are obvious once you hear them. That’s not the point.
Thinking to say them in the first place, that requires some knowledge of their context and history. Community in-jokes and catchphrases are signifiers of belonging. This was a case of using old, old, old slang terms as a kind of dog whistle to signal to old sff fans that they were The People, to lay a claim to being the true and only heirs of the fans who originally used the terms.
I have no beef with people who enjoy using old slang. But I have my doubts about the motives of these people who wish to kick all modern fans they don’t like out of the clubhouse and seem to be trying to appeal to older fan generations as a source of their legitimacy to do so.
Martin Wooster says But I’m not giddy with delight that Discon will be a leftist convention like you are.
Actually politics is not one of the subjects that gets a lot of play at most cons. Pick most any other subject and it’s more likely to come up first. Like File 770 which is inhabited predominantly by Leftists, Con goers don’t really spend that much time talking about political matters.
@Cat Eldridge In a very ironic way, one of the posters on Tank Marmot’s forum suggested that a small force skilled in explosives could easily paralyse an entire city.
Never mind that the semi-professional Provisional IRA couldn’t even manage that in a 30 year campaign even though they did some heavy damage to English cities. And no-one is going to call them unskilled in explosives, now would they?
Given the level of skill shown on January 6th, I don’t think most of these cosplay terrorists are going to inflict significant infrastructure damage. They’ll still manage to kill lots of innocents though (the ludicrous firearms regulations in the USA don’t help here).
“Fugghead” was coined by Francis Towner Laney in around 1950. He then went on to burn it into fandom’s collective memory by calling a lot of people fuggheads.
While looking for Sarah Hoyt’s use of the word, I found this 2014 guest post by Toni Weisskopf on According to Hoyt in which she talks about the widening cultural divide in SF/F fandom, references Bob Tucker as the last calming unifying voice, and refers twice to fuggheads.
Weisskopf writes:
Weber’s stance on con’s disinviting guests of honor is simply nonsense, although I have seen it echoed in several other places. David Gerrold, for example, in a Facebook post, called it a “sacred duty” for a convention to honor a guest of honor invitation.
And that is simply a ridiculous position to take.
Take an extreme case: Suppose a convention invited an author as guest of honor and in the interim between the invitation and the convention the author murdered someone and was convicted of that crime. Lest one think this impossible, I point to Phil Spector, who, although in another creative industry, was a prominent enough figure that if the music industry had similar conventions to those science fiction has would have merited such an invite.
Would the convention have been justified in disinviting this hypothetical convicted murdered author as a guest? If yes, then this is no longer a stance of principle or a “sacred duty”, but rather a negotiation as to when it is appropriate to make that decision.
Suppose the conviction was for a lesser crime? Suppose the hypothetical guest of honor robbed a convenience store, or was convicted of spousal abuse? Is that enough to disinvite a guest of honor? I think the answer is yes.
Is a conviction necessary? What if someone was only arrested on credible charges of something like spousal abuse, as with Roc Upchurch? Is that enough to disinvite them? It was enough for Upchurch to be replaced as the artist for the Rat Queens, and it would probably also justify disinviting them as a guest of honor.
Does it have to be a crime? What if it just came out that they were a big admirer of Nazis, as happened with Marge Schott? Or revelations that they were a viciously racist asshole, as happened with Donald Sterling? Is a convention somehow honor-bound to retain that person as a guest of honor? I think not.
Conventions can, and should, be able to disinvite guests. I think those taking this stance that there is a holy obligation never to do so are being disingenuous in their stances, and would actually agree that a convention could disinvite a guest in many situations. And once you cross that bridge, the only question of disagreement would be when it is appropriate.
@Jayn: You can feel yoy in buying a supporting membership for worldcon, this is not forbidden.
I don’t think that Worldcon is a con for the left, yes they have drawn a line in the sand, when not to honor a GOH. Any society needs rules. We need respect for each other. This doesn’t mean that you can just treaten people and exspect them to roll over.
Some Beanwriters and fans have picked interesting causes to defend. (VD, the Tank…)
And about forrums, as far as I know most forums can make areas not visible easily, get them passwordprotected, let them only see certain users, etc…
I don’t know what Beans forumsoftware can do.
@ Martin Wooster
You keep talking about commenters “giddy with joy” but there aren’t any here. That must be disappointing. FYI the social democrats I know are a pretty sober bunch.
It’s hard to do Malvolio’s outrage convincingly when there are no Toby Belches and Andrew Aguecheeks trashing the place.
So far, Martin has sought permission for the emotions he’d like to feel, assigned emotions to others without their concurrence and demanded that others explain why they’re not exhibiting the emotions he’s assigned to them. It’s as if he believes emotions aren’t something one feels based on their own reactions, but something others declare for them and permit them to feel.
It’s as if he thinks emotions are chosen by people who disagree with the person who is to feel those emotions. Or that he’s making shit up and arguing in bad faith.
Considering that he’s also trying to get people to “answer questions” steeped in dishonest assertions he’d like them to defend for strawman purposes, I know which I’d guess.
And I hereby declare that he is delighted by having his rhetorical dishonesty recognized and that he is officially disallowed from feeling any other way about it.
(1) The responses to the Baen affair are as expected. In the bigger picture, the blatherings of “DisCon has become socialist / leftist” only show how little US libertarians et al really know (or, more likely, care) what these terms actually mean. If anyone in this forum is agog to experience fascist governance (I spent six years of my life under one), by all means continue acting as you have. Or just look at what has been happening in Texas this week.
(6) It’s distressing to all writers when they cannot easily publish their works, and in fact it’s harder for newcomers who don’t have a network and following. That said, when established authors use that phrase they often mean “difficulty selling to big presses with sizable advances” — I bet many small indies would have loved to see Greg Bear’s work, if it had merit. As it is, he did sell it to a large press.
The thing about Martin Wooster’s post that puzzles me is – how does he think it’s relevant to reveal he identifies as Libertarian, and name-drops George Will? Is that supposed to be some kind of gotcha? A kind of “get out of illogic free” card? Does that somehow make less nonsensical the assertion that the disinvitation of TW makes DisConIII a “leftist convention”?
There’s also this implication in MW’s post that “Cannot in good conscience publicly honor someone who deliberately allows violent rhetoric to flourish in a space for which they are responsible, or at least won’t repudiate said violent rhetoric when given the chance” … is an exclusively Leftist position to hold. Then he makes it clear that he is not a Leftist, that he is saddened at the prospect of DisConIII being a leftist convention. What, then, must we think of his assertion that he reallio trulio does disapprove of violent rhetoric himself? When he has just made said disapproval (or at least, said disapproval with teeth) an exclusive trait of a political identity he repudiates? Hm.
I’m reminded of people who, when a community space updates its code of conduct to specifically exclude homophobic bigots, will pipe up and say, “So how can I, as a Christian, feel welcome in your space?” They haven’t at this point explicitly declared themselves homophobic bigots, but logically, you kind of have to assume the implication. And any Christians who aren’t themselves homophobic bigots are probably going to take exception to the other implication – that excluding homophobic bigots is to exclude Christians – that “Christian” and “homophobic bigot” are synonymous.
Birthdays: Terry Carr: Small typo here. Terry didn’t work at “Ave Books,” but at “Ace Books.” While there, he oversaw the “Ace Specials” that included many of the best writers of the time.
Should I know what George will do?
(2) Maybe I heard wrong, but I did hear Gina Carano was the target of a lot of pretty nasty social media attacks just because she hadn’t put her pronouns into her bio, and was refusing to do so because she didn’t want to “bend the knee” to bullying. Is that kind of mob harrassment okay? I don’t think so, and nor did she, but it does seem par for the course (cause?) these days. As for “Fans looked up to Cara, and by extension Carano”, she’s an actress, and an ex MMA fighter, and anything else people want to attach to her is their problem surely, not hers.
@HowardB
I hadn’t heard any of that, but she did make fun of people who do put pronouns in their bios, and said some things that she should have apologized for, as they were deplorable (apparently not for the first time).
I don’t know how much fans looked up to her, but it’s more like looking up to the character for a lot of people.
Maybe I heard wrong,
You did. Full stop.
Everything you posted after that statement is incorrect.
Perhaps Gina Carrano reacted that way because of all the bullying I mentioned? But she lost her job and the strong female character she played won’t be recast because the part was written specially for her so I suppose the mob has tasted blood and will be happy for a few minutes.
@Athena Andreadis
You mentioned “sizeable advances” and wrote, “I bet many small indies would have loved to see Greg Bear’s work, if it had merit.”
You doubt it would have merit? I’ve read many of Greg Bear’s books, and he’s a great writer (Doris Lessing thought so too). Blood Music won a Hugo and is terrific, but awards don’t pay the bills (I dread to think what the local taxes are in Seattle after all those riots). Can full time writers make anything like a decent living working with “small indies”?
Yes, by all means, Gina Carano was forced to say vile things about the Jews because she was bullied into it! So you see, it wasn’t her exercising freedom of speech at all! She was coerced! By bullies!
@HowardB
Thanks for letting me know that you have trouble recognizing bad behavior.
No, I don’t have any trouble, I am recognizing it right now.
Or context, nuance, punching down from places of power and dominance, gaslighting, sealioning, trolling… Yeah, I’m starting to think howardb isn’t conversing here in good faith.
@HowardB
I know Greg Bear personally and have interacted with him a number of times as research scientist, science ambassador & author in astrobio / planetary conferences. I thought Blood Music had problems, but chacun a son goût. And wearing my most recent hat as the editor and publisher of a small but indomitable indie press, I can tell you that authors can and do make money in such venues.
If Requires Hate had been made GoH of Worldcon or any other convention in her author persona and her secret identity was revealed afterwards, I’m pretty sure there would have been calls to disinvite her and they would have been fully justified.
Also, while it’s rare that a Guest of Honour or special guest is disinvited and while Worldcon never needed to do this so far, there have been a handful of cases, e.g. Elizabeth Moon at Wiscon in 2010 for islamophobic remarks on her blog, John Ringo at ConCarolinas in 2018 for being himself and Larry Correia at GenCon in 2018, also for being himself. In all three cases, there was intense community pressure and staffers, guests and members threatening to walk out.
Gina Carano is responsible for her own actions, for her hurtful and bigoted statements against others.
Quite a large number of women actors have been the targets of mobs angry at strong woman characters in their Ghostbusters or Star Wars or whichever franchise, without making bigoted statements on social media.
So perhaps being the target of such bullying is not an excuse for making bigoted statements.
re: Terry Carr’s employer. The misunderstanding is, um, understandable. Ave Books was a small Catholic press dedicated to women’s issues from a pre-Vatican II perspective. Its editor was one Terrance Carpe, who resigned after counterfeiting receipts for his per-diem payments. The scandal brought down the press and was known, of course, as the Carpe Per-Diem Affair. I believe George Will wrote a column about it. /counterfactual
Nicole: I wasn’t trying to :”name drop” George Will. I was simply using him as a benchmark closest to my own political views. I could say I was a right-wing libertarian or a Frank Meyer/Albert Jay Nock fusionist,but saying my views were comparable to Will’s would give a good shorthand of where I am politically.