I plunked down $2.99 for Tom Kratman’s novella “Big Boys Don’t Cry” during yesterday’s ”book bomb” pushing novellas on the Sad Puppies slate, because I just can’t stand on the sidewalk when the parade goes by. Sometimes this leads to good things. I bought Redshirts a couple years ago because of the social media campaign and it turned out to be pretty good. Can lightning strike twice?
Maggie, the protagonist of “Big Boys Don’t Cry,” is a Ratha — a sentient armored weapons platform, the human race’s ultimate ground combat unit. Spoiler warning: She’s not a boy. And apparently she can cry.
As a big fan of Keith Laumer’s original Bolo stories, as well as Elizabeth Bear’s 2008 Hugo-winning ”Tideline”, I find Kratman’s variation compelling because he asks important questions about intelligent, self-aware tanks the earlier classics never investigated.
Like: Why do artificial intelligences subject themselves to human command? Why do they sacrifice themselves for human interests?
This is something Iain Banks answered minimally about the Culture’s intelligent ships. His answer seemed to be – well, you just program them to. Kratman feels the question deserves to be addressed in far more horrifying detail.
And the horror of Kratman’s explanation is convincing for as long as you’re reading. (Somewhat the same way I believe in Ann Leckie’s ancillaries til I close the book.) Only afterwards did I wonder about Ratha training – would any culture deliberately choose such a crude process, or is the author being satirical? Quite possibly the latter, for Kratman calls the whole story a “deconstruction of that liberal meme on the easy, certain, and reliable programming of altruism in sentient beings.”
Yes, he’s more than a little contemptuous of these fictional forerunners. Even in choosing his title, “Big Boys Don’t Cry.” Do you remember the first line of Bear’s “Tideline”?
Chalcedony wasn’t built for crying. She didn’t have it in her, not unless her tears were cold tapered-glass droplets annealed by the inferno heat that had crippled her.
Well, Kratman’s Maggie – short for Magnolia – may be fearless but she is not unfeeling, as he shows with a mosaic of combat action scenes that begin with her last mission and, once she’s consigned to salvage, move through progressively earlier memories.
My lone complaint about the story is that after beginning with a splendid action scene, Kratman brings everything to an ass-grinding halt to deliver an Encyclopedia Galactica-type info dump.
Then he does it a second time.
Who started this trope anyway? I know Asimov used it in Foundation. Plenty of pulp writers have done it. But, jeepers, is it hard to tolerate, especially when we don’t need the info Kratman is dumping. Which isn’t to say it was uninteresting, it’s just not doing work, and it interrupts the entertainment something fierce.
Fortunately, he soon abandons that pattern and lets the reader enjoy the things he does best. Describing combat. Illustrating the warrior’s psychology. Casting aspersions on bureaucrats. And proving how dangerous it is to abuse the loyalty of a veteran soldier.
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…deconstruction of a liberal meme…so then this story is “message fiction”?
Less message more story illustrating the reality of human nature…or the nature of sentience. The story shows that some things can be imposed or programmed but that there are consequences that are not accounted for by the ones doing the programming.
Also a warning on the use of autonomous systems in warfare. Much of military training is desensitization and inculcating behaviors. That all is limited by the morality and ethics of the trainee, who can only be pushed so far outside his moral zone. Which is why multiethnic empires use soldiers of one ethny to oppress common folk of other ethnic backgrounds. There being less sympathy for those not like the soldiers. Drones or autonomous systems, not being human, make even better candidates for human oppression. The ultimate abstraction of another’s humanity into a number or mere resource.
Steve, there are numerous quotes from all of those involved in Sad Puppies stating that there is nothing wrong with a story which delivers a message. They just want the story to come first. When the message trumps the story, neither one ends up faring particularly well, in my opinion.
Here’s a specific quote from Larry Correia about that (note the last line):
“Now, before we continue I need to establish something about my personal writing philosophy. Science Fiction is SPECULATIVE FICTION. That means we can make up all sorts of crazy stuff and we can twist existing reality to do interesting new things in order to tell the story we want to tell. I’m not against having a story where there are sexes other than male and female or neuters or schmes or hirs or WTF ever or that they flip back and forth or shit… robot sex. Hell, I don’t know. Write whatever tells your story.
But the important thing there is STORY. Not the cause of the day. STORY. ”
You can find it here if you want to assure yourself I’m quote in context:
http://monsterhunternation.com/2014/01/28/ending-binary-gender-in-fiction-or-how-to-murder-your-writing-career/
I haven’t read “Big Boys Don’t Cry” (nor am I registered with WorldCon, in case anyone is into conclusion jumping) and it may very well be “message fiction.” But if it’s “fiction with a message” then it’s a different kettle of fish because in the latter the fiction comes first.
Banks’s reasoning was along the lines of intelligence going hand in hand with empathy. So his Minds having greater intelligence than his humanoids also had the capacity for greater empathy.
You didn’t actually have to buy it from Castalia.
http://web.archive.org/web/20091021052611/http://www.tomkratman.com/bolos.html
I’m glad you enjoyed it. It doesn’t sound like it would be my sort of thing; even the things you report he does well are not something I seek out in fiction. But the heads-up is useful.
As a Sad Puppy (just someone who stumbled across the transition from Instapundit => Scalzi => Vox => ELoE) who now participates in the Hugos, I thought this was quite classy Mike.
Very nicely done.
I would agree. In many of these debates, too often people reduce themselves to personally hating the other side. This leads them to dismiss anything the other side says. I think this post by Mike shows that people can disagree and still appreciate the other person’s work.
Hey, Glyer, thanks for the boost. We couldn’t have gotten him to #1 without your support!
By the way, since we just sold thousands of novellas from our suggested slate over the last few days, making them most widely read things likely to show up in the Novella Category by far (no really, last year all 5 finalists put together had like 800 if I recall correctly) and I’m doing the same thing for our suggested short fiction next week, do you want to retract that stuff you wrote about how Larry Correia is a lying hypocrite who doesn’t want people to read stuff before nominating it?
You weren’t supposed to actually READ it! We just wanted you to BUY and VOTE. Reading entirely optional.
And now for the joke, Mike:
Maggie <—Magnolia<—Flower Wood<—wait for it…wait for it <—- Mu Lan
More anti-message fiction, Steve. The difference – at least as I see it; feel free to disagree – is that message fiction is trying to positively persuade the reader of something, while anti-message fiction simply says, "Bullshit. Don't just _believe_ that crap; think for yourself."
Roo: Fairly close, yes.
Chlamydia: Classy as always; does the Marshfield PD know you're still being allowed access to a computer and the net?
Mike, I don't think the whole thing would work as I wanted it to sans the infodumps, to the extent they are infodumps, rather than flashbacks containing their own (admittedly largely virtual) action. Still, if you have a suggestion…
Thanks for the review!
Stories that push messages the Sad Puppies like don’t bore the Sad Puppies. Well, that was unexpected.
The Sad Puppies want interesting stories (i.e., stories whose messages the Sad Puppies like) to win the Hugos.
So the Sad Puppies block-vote stories whose messages the Sad Puppies like into the Hugo nominations. If they ever gather enough Puppies, they’ll block vote them to a Hugo win. But they’ll need to work on the gathering part; if I’m counting right they’ll need about 2,500 new Puppies.
Larry is probably busy enough that he hasn’t kept track of what Mike posts, so I’ll go ahead and put this link here for him:
https://file770.com/?p=20793
Read all the way to the bottom of the post.
There you go.
Cat: This is not the first time I’ve ever been asked a “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” kind of question. But it is the first time anyone has ever stepped in to answer for me, “Yes he has”….
Ook ook.
“So the Sad Puppies block-vote stories whose messages the Sad Puppies like into the Hugo nominations. If they ever gather enough Puppies, they’ll block vote them to a Hugo win. But they’ll need to work on the gathering part; if I’m counting right they’ll need about 2,500 new Puppies.”
More or less. The real number is probably between 1,500 and 1,800 as the SJWs increasingly get demoralized over time. The hard-core SJW vote is only around 620. They didn’t take over SF in a year and we don’t expect to take it back in two. The Hugos aren’t the real challenge anyhow, the real challenge is the Nebulas. Fortunately, SFWA just made it a LOT easier for us.
But you needn’t fear. We think long term and we execute very well.
Given how I moved because of this harassment and swatting campaign, no, probably not.
Given how I moved because of this harassment and swatting campaign, no, probably not.
It’s not “swatting” when the police drag you down to the station for years of cyberstalking, Andrew Marston aka “Alauda”, “Luscinia”, et al.
So, are you paying people to send you everything and anything I post?
No one’s ever explained to you the word, “extradition,” eh, Andrew?
“So, are you paying people to send you everything and anything I post?”
I don’t have to pay them to do it. Every time you post anything on any site about me, multiple people email me the link. Dozens of different people. After five years of you cyberstalking and trolling my blog, there are hundreds of people who are more than happy to keep tabs on you.
We have 41 of your known identities in a database along with over a thousand of your comments and the IP addresses. Three different people maintain databases on you, none of them me. You really picked the wrong target to cyberstalk, Andrew.
And Andrew Marston becomes the living example of why SJWs run and hide instead of facing Vox Day. You have actually managed to take every ‘safe space’ on the internet away from him.
I’m going to call “time” on this part of the love fest. Everybody break clean and retire to your corners…
I should say thanks for the Wayback Machine link to Kratman’s earlier version. I was trying to find that last night before I posted my review.
There are actually four or five different versions, Mike. I don’t recall which one I had on my site, but it may have been there one where I made an effort not to destroy the boloverse.
I’m going to close comments temporarily while I’m away from the computer. Will turn them back on in a few hours.
Comments are reopened.
The objective this year for morose canines is to swamp the nominations for Hugo so that at least one category has nothing but doggie noms, giving no one a choice but to vote either for their slate or for no award.
And once again they’ll present the outcome – regardless of what it is – as a positive result for their politics.
I should point out that they could have accomplished this far more easily by simply putting everything its possible to nominate on their slate and then claiming victory – but that wouldn’t have generated as much internet BS, nor gotten them enough attention to slake their needs.
Later today on Amazing Stories: John W. Campbell didn’t endorse the populist view of fandom and endorsed SF that embraced the soft sciences and the idea that ‘message’ was just as important as any other element in SF. Hmmmm
Golden age. You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means….
There is nothing wrong with message fiction if it is done right. Harlan Ellison writes quite a bit of it, and he has awards.
Sad puppies aren’t much fun.
I apologize if I have done something I shouldn’t by posting that link, Mike. It just weirded me out to see someone saying something so counter to reality.
It occurred to me that the Sad Puppy “book bombs” are deliberate attempts to mess with a metric that the Sad Puppies claim to value above all others as a measure of excellence–bestseller status. By timing everyone’s purchases to happen in the same day they artificially push a story farther up that ladder than it would have earned on its own. People who scan the bestsellers to decide what to buy next are thus see a story that wouldn’t have earned their eyes on its own, and some of the buy it, pushing it higher yet. Is the story more excellent as a result? Not a word in it changes when the hundredth, or thousandth, or ten thousandth person buys it.
This is why I don’t look at bestseller status when picking what books to read, by the way. I don’t pick my books because they have been …err… “marked”… by puppies.
Ellison also hammered home the writer’s responsibility to entertain first, then educate, a lesson the SFF community seems to need to relearn every few years.
@Cat – As anyone involved or remotely paying any attention to any industry which requires large amounts of people to buy product to function, and especially any form of the entertainment industry, exposure generates interest. If people do not know something exists they cannot consume it. Doesn’t matter whether it’s good or bad. What book bombs do is generate a short term spike that increases exposure but unless the product is good(for admittedly varying measures of good. After all, Sparkledammerung happened and then got 4 bad movies and horrible bdsm fan fiction which is getting its own movie.) the spike does nothing and interest wanes. As Larry has been doing this for a while to generate exposure for various authors and the entire point of SP3 is to get good SF/F nominated that the bloc voting contingent of SJWs which currently have a stranglehold over the nominations would never nominate for varying reasons(attempting to argue that Butcher has never been nominated because of his politics is very much a losing argument so please don’t try) the idea that he is book bombing bad stories to a place they haven’t “earned on their own” is at best ignorant.
Sales are are as contingent on advertising and perceived interest as quality, else Lindsey Stirling would never have been on AGT, let alone had to put her work up on YouTube as she would already have been a star. The idea that “earned” comes anywhere into it is absurd. Since there is full disclosure at the primary site over any potential ethical issues and exposure of the media elsewhere in question will only help in the Hugos if it is good literature, there really aren’t any justified concerns to be brought up. If your concern is that the pieces of literature you deem worthy are not getting the same concern, then find like minded people and soapbox the hell of them. After all, if you pick good literature, exposure only helps. But the idea it was ever a level playing field even prior to the book bombs is damned funny.
(On an unrelated note I just realized that the three individuals involved so far in this post are all Mormons. Spooky)
Thinking about it, that’s the entire reason that Quinngate, the movement that exploded into Gamergate when gaming journalism decided to blow their own feet off, started in the first place. Quinn cheated on her boyfriend with someone who then wrote an article with her game in it on up and coming games where the fact that they were boinking was not disclosed. The funny thing is, until they decided to declare gamers dead and derivatives thereof, almost no gamers knew and even less cared about Quinngate. But you bet your ass they cared after the exposure given to the situation.
Either bestseller lists *are* a measure of quality, or they aren’t. If they are, then artificially altering a story’s place in them either shouldn’t be possible at all, or at least is something honest people just don’t do. If they’re not a measure of quality, then diddling them is fine, but then bestsellers failing to make the Hugo lists means nothing.
Why on earth would I argue that Butcher didn’t get nominated *because of his politics*? “Politics drive Hugo nominations” is a Sad Puppy position–e.g. your idea, not mine.
I had thought for some time that the Sad Puppies and the Gamergaters might have the same motivations. Since Gamergate began as a loser trying to hurt the woman who dumped him, and in the process showing exactly why dumping him was the only possible thing to do, it’s understandable why it has used game journalism as the thinnest excuse to threaten and harass women who dare to venture an opinion in a field the Gamergaters want to keep as a male preserve.
I’m astonished that the Sad Puppies would acknowledge the association, since it certainly doesn’t strengthen any kind of case that this is actually about quality science fiction, but I’ll take your word for it.
A measure of quality, certainly. But only one measure, and only in one way. Namely, whether it is something people feel find worth reading. But that only applies to longer term best seller lists. Which to get on effectively requires a critical mass of people to buy and then recommend to others to read. In order to even begin to attract that critical mass, there must be sufficient exposure. The short term book bombs increase the possibility that enough other people will at least look at the material in question and if enough people then find it interesting and buy it, will generate that critical mass. Other venues are publisher advertising and ‘controversy’*cough*50 shades*cough*.
As for politics driven noms, you are correct that was a part of SP2. Namely to prove that the SJW bloc by and large didn’t give a shit as to the quality of a nomination if it opposed their political bent. Given all the howling about No Award voting and adamant vows of not reading any of the SP2 noms, that was pretty well established to be the case. That being said, you clearly ignore the stated intention of SP3. Namely to force the Hugo noms to give a showing to authors the would never touch irrespective of the authors politics. Given what he’s written, Butcher should have had at least one Hugo nom for best novel by now yet there’s nothing. Instead, stuff like Redshirts wins. That’s just downright embarrassing for an award meant to demonstrate “best SF/F work” in a given year.
Wow, just… Wow. What is this I don’t even. Item one, in what frelling universe did I declare myself a spokesperson for SP or in any way formally affiliated with it? Oh wait I didn’t. Item 2, your blatant misconstruction of what I wrote about Gamergate and Quinngate and the effects of exposure upon their following on both sides of the issue, without I’ll note even particularly taking a side as what I stated were all rather demonstrable facts(For instance, I ommitted mentioning the other four guys she was accused of sleeping with because none of them came out and confirmed it) and taken along with item one confirms that you have no interest in honest discussion.
Best Seller lists have been manipulated in the past by agents who wanted to promote a particular writer. Top bad example I recall was Jackqueline Susanne whose book VALLEY OF THE DOLLS was given best seller status by people buying the book at the target stores back in the mid 1960’s. Quality it ain’t. Of course the books are now electronicly counted on basis of sales, but that doesn’t mean someone can’t manipulate results.
…the people on the bus go up and down, up and down, up and down, the people on the bus go up and down, allll around the town….
Exactly–to get bestseller status you have to start from somewhere and you are using the book bombs to give that start to certain stories that can’t get it on their own. Thus diddling with the bestseller lists, as I said. Meaning the Sad Puppies themselves know that bestseller is not simply a mark of quality.
As for the quality of the Sad Puppies noms, I read them all, and they ended up where they deserved, quality-wise. If “Opera Vita Aeterna” was the best the Sad Puppies had to offer, the Hugos have hardly been missing out on “quality” to this point. (Pro-tip: “quality” stories do not name the woman character after her chest. Not even if there is some marine with a similar nickname for deniability’s sake.)
I see what the Sad Puppies claim they are doing. I just don’t actually care; talk is cheap. Last year’s results make it pretty plain what they’re really doing.
I know what Gamergate is really about, because I pay attention to what they do and who they attack, and who they don’t. Attach Gamergate to your cause if you like being associated with rape and death threats against women who dare to speak about videogames. But in that case you probably shouldn’t get mad when someone points out what you have done.
The woman named after her chest being a character in _The Exchange Officers_ of course, not in _Opera Vita Aeterna_, which is about an elf copying the bible, and rather less exciting than it sounds.
“I know what Gamergate is really about, because I pay attention to what they do and who they attack, and who they don’t. Attach Gamergate to your cause if you like being associated with rape and death threats against women who dare to speak about videogames. But in that case you probably shouldn’t get mad when someone points out what you have done.”
You don’t know a damn thing about it, little Kitty-Cat. Because, if you did, you’d know that I am the Leader of #GamerGate and the link between #GamerGate and Sad Puppies is considerably more direct than you believe it to be.
#GamerGate is Sad Puppies on nuclear steroids. Everything is bigger. Literally Who, Literally Who 2, and Literally Wu are scam artists that make John Scalzi look like a paragon of probity. And you don’t even know what the issues are.
But here is the similarity. GamerGaters declare we will play the games we want to play and make the games we want to make. If you don’t like that, go away and make your own games.
Sound familiar?
@Cat
Where’s the like button?
Honestly, he has no problem associating with rape threats and death threats. One of his DREAD ILK wrote this gem: How much will someone bet me that she will in good time claim to have been “raped” by a white no doubt very blond white man.
“Exactly–to get bestseller status you have to start from somewhere and you are using the book bombs to give that start to certain stories that can’t get it on their own. Thus diddling with the bestseller lists, as I said. Meaning the Sad Puppies themselves know that bestseller is not simply a mark of quality.”
This reasoning would only apply if the Sad Puppies people don’t read or enjoy the books they purchase during Book Bombs.
Is that the case?
Calling someone “Kitty-Cat” in that tone is so Roman Polanski in Chinatown. Just wanted you to know somebody got the reference.
And I’m assuming here that saying somebody doesn’t know the issues in GamerGate is a rhetorical statement. Everyone has done too good a job for an interested reader not to know.
For my own part, “quality” is whether the book is considered worth reading by whatever audience you’re talking about.
Bestseller status is a very strong indicator of “quality”, since it means that lots of people are willing to pay for the privilege of reading the story.
It isn’t the ONLY indicator, since lots of enjoyable works never get read, and booksellers can manipulate the ratings to some degree. But it’s a very strong one, and you should be skeptical about any award that regularly goes to books nobody buys.
Aaah crap, my pasteboard screwed that up. Stupid tablets. @Glyer can you delete my previous post?
Let’s try this again.
You do realize that both the Goon Squad and the GNAA, the two biggest ‘professional’ troll organizations on the internet, have admitted to being active in q/ggate correct? As well the only death threat traced back to an actual person was traced back to a Brazilian clickbait journalist, basically another professional troll. So attempting to throw around guilt by association when I
1. am not active on twatter
2. Can process the fact that assholes on the internet lie about who they are and what they believe in on a regular basis
3. am not interested in bringing up similar arguments about MZB and SD
is a rather sad tactic that becomes DOA.
“Honestly, he has no problem associating with rape threats and death threats.”
The threats can hardly be said to be associated with GamerGate, let alone me, when they are produced by the nominal targets of the threats. “Brianna Wu” aka John Flynt is a nutcase who claimed to be on the run and in hiding while making videos in the very house he said he’d been driven from by GamerGate.
For crying out loud, Andrew, you’ve done worse than anyone actually in GamerGate. You were dragged down to the police station, remember?
Sorry guys, Gamergate got into the regular news. And now we all know it’s not about ethics in journalism, it’s about targeting women who dare to make games, or talk about games, with rape and death threats.
” And now we all know it’s not about ethics in journalism, it’s about targeting women who dare to make games, or talk about games, with rape and death threats.”
You’re a blatant liar, Cat. Your lies don’t even make sense.
1. Most of the “death threats” and “rape threats” were fake. They never happened.
2. All of them happened months ago. Last summer. When was the last “rape and death threat”, Cat?
3. GamerGate is an active group that consists of tens of thousands of individuals. Many of them are professional game developers like me. What are we all busy doing if there have only been a small handful of threats, most of them of dubious legitimacy?
4. A number of game journalists, some of them influential, have lost their jobs. Joystiq closed. Gawker lost over a million dollars in ad revenue and “reassigned’ two of its top people. Do you think this is due to “rape and death threats”? Or serious problems concerning “ethics in journalism”?
5. Several game journalism sites have adopted ethics guidelines. Do you think this just might have something to do with a little ethical problem in gaming journalism?
I was the second nationally syndicated game journalist in the USA. I have written for numerous leading magazines, including Computer Gaming World, Electronic Entertainment, and Develop. And I can tell you, with 100 percent certainty, that in 2014, there was a MASSIVE ethics problem in game journalism. And there still is. Any game developer will readily tell you as much.
What are your game industry credentials? What are your game journalism credentials? What do you know about it beyond watching CSI: SVU?
Correction: last fall, not last summer.
#Gamergate is not terribly hard to understand. All one need do is look at Australia, where SJWs and the Media got GTA5 pulled due to content. The Warriors want the entire gaming world made in their own image. Same goes for SFF. The Warriors want to set the standards, but they made a stratagic error. They took on the wrong people.
Pushback’s a bitch, ain’t it. The tactics of the Warriors are being exposed; lies, damn lies, and Warriors.
Sad-Puppies for the win.
For crying out loud, Andrew, you’ve done worse than anyone actually in GamerGate. You were dragged down to the police station, remember?
Thanks for explaining what “swatting” is.
Rape threat by Mr.MantraMan of Vox Popoli: How much will someone bet me that she will in good time claim to have been “raped” by a white no doubt very blond white man.
Cat –
You may not realize this, but there’s a huge world out there that doesn’t care much about social media or “the regular news.” Internet-savvy gamers make up a very large portion of that world. I asked a liberal friend of mine what his opinion was on this whole issue back when it started, and he said 2 things:
“Annita Sarkeesian is a fraud.”
“This isn’t even about her.”
Keep in mind, this is an Obama-voting, pro-national-healthcare, etc. Democrat. But he’s also not particularly active on real time social media outside of reddit (believe it or not, a huge portion of my generation uses social media very lightly).
I can guarantee that I’m more informed and aware of the sum total of what happened in gamergate than you… And I can also tell you that you just don’t get what it’s about. This is an authoritarian/libertarian clash of creative license. The libertarians are winning.
And now people are starting to realize that this is a clash that’s occurring in every aspect of daily life. The live-and-let-live culture was perfectly willing to accommodate this silliness as long as it was just awards and doggerel… But sometime got stupid and decided to make it about games, too.