95 thoughts on “Hugo Awards 2020 Finalists”

1. Contrarius: Guess what, you have no basis for thinking you know what anything’s “appeal across all of fandom” is. But thanks to your comments people are spending their day writing abuse, not about Contrarius, but about File 770.

2. I’m enraged.

   Consequently I’m writing argumentative things on Twitter which will now be there until the heat death of the universe. I hate it.

3. @Mike —

   Contrarius: Guess what, you have no basis for thinking you know what anything’s “appeal across all of fandom” is.

   Which is one reason why I very clearly wrote “IMHO” — this is my opinion, nothing else.

   But thanks to your comments people are spending their day writing abuse, not about Contrarius, but about File 770.

   Sorry to hear that! I rarely do twitter — aside from cute cat videos 😉 — so I haven’t seen any of that. But I’m sorry that you or 770 are getting attacked!

4. @Contrarius–Fascinating to learn that–On Your Humble Opinion–I’m a “rabid fan” rather than a member of broader sff fandom.

5. @Lis —

   @Contrarius–Fascinating to learn that–On Your Humble Opinion–I’m a “rabid fan” rather than a member of broader sff fandom.

   They are not mutually exclusive. 🙂

6. For the angry people presumably visiting from twitter: Filers are still not a hivemind! A commenter saying a thing does not imply agreement from any other commenters and most certainly not the host! If you’re angry with a commenter having An Opinion You Disagree With, take it up with that individual, not the fanzine!

   AUGH.

7. I disagree. We ARE a hive mind. So there!

8. Contrarius: Which is one reason why I very clearly wrote “IMHO” — this is my opinion, nothing else.

   So for this opinion you abandoned your ordinary practice of having two facts to rub together as the basis for making an assertion? Thanks for sharing.

9. I went to have a look and I regret it a lot. Apparently we were all on John Ringo’s side that one time and he was the Hero of the Hour, which is. An interesting interpretation of literally any of those threads or posts.

   @Mike Glyer

   I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.

   @Rob Thornton

   I appreciate your support on the “we argue about literally everything except possibly that books are pretty cool” thing!

10. @Meredith —

    For the angry people presumably visiting from twitter: Filers are still not a hivemind! A commenter saying a thing does not imply agreement from any other commenters and most certainly not the host! If you’re angry with a commenter having An Opinion You Disagree With, take it up with that individual, not the fanzine!

    AUGH.

    What she said. For heaven’s sake, if anyone doesn’t like anything I’ve said, take it up with ME, not Mike or 770.

    @Mike —

    So for this opinion you abandoned your ordinary practice of having two facts to rub together as the basis for making an assertion?

    Yup, when I’m stating a personal opinion rather than a fact-based claim, I try to make it clear that my statement is just that — a personal opinion only. I’m happy to back up any claim of fact that I make with actual supporting evidence, but just like anyone else I’m entitled to my own opinions — whether or not I can produce reams of data in their support. And I’m happy to admit when I don’t have those reams of data, as in this case.

11. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen three File770 commenters agree on anything – though others may of course disagree with me about that.

    @Mike : Sorry you’re getting grief on Twitter.

12. I’m not sure how you could distinguish between a writer having support from a rabid fanbase from one having broad support acrosss fandom. Maybe you need to do a randomized double blind study, where you get McGuire and, say Scalzi to collaborate on a novella, and publish it in a magazine where a third of the copies attribute it to McGuire, a third to Scalzi, and a third to Sue Denim Jr. Then collect ratings from the readers.

13. @David —

    Maybe you need to do a randomized double blind study, where you get McGuire and, say Scalzi to collaborate on a novella, and publish it in a magazine where a third of the copies attribute it to McGuire, a third to Scalzi, and a third to Sue Denim Jr. Then collect ratings from the readers.

    There are SOOO many times I would love to do studies like that. So many ideas, so little money to put them into practice!

14. Two things can be true at the same time.

    Contrarius’ opinion is reasonable and was offered with (IMHO) reasonable qualifiers. If fact, that opinion is reasonably congruent with my position as it has evolved over the years.

    The negative reactions towards File770 are way out of line given that it was a user/guest comment and not actually part of any post.

    A third thing could also be true. I’m underwhelmed with an author….a person that works with words for a living…being unable to read Contrarius’ opinion and fail to recognize the part of it that is very much an affirmation of their work being a finalist.

    I’m also underwhelmed by most of the other comments floating around in the Twitterverse, but that isn’t exactly a groundbreaking story….

    Regards,
    Dann
    “I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts, and beer.” – Abraham Lincoln

15. David Shallcross: I’m not sure how you could distinguish between a writer having support from a rabid fanbase from one having broad support acrosss fandom.

    This line of inquiry has a bad smell to it for the very reason that it ignores facts already in evidence.

    The Hugos are nominated by members of the Worldcon.

    Reminiscent of the “too many notes” line in Amadeus, the canard about Seanan McGuire’s “rabid fanbase” goes back to 2013 when Seanan McGuire/Mira Grant had five Hugo nominations. The whole “OMG! Rabid fanbase!!” narrative got five months free run before the voting statistics came out. The facts never overtake the narrative – not even after seven years — however, anyone who inspected the numbers would have seen that narrative didn’t explain why four out of five obviously had broad support among Hugo nominators because they came in near the top of the poll.

    NOVEL

    Made the ballot – second most votes —

    138 Blackout by Mira Grant (12.40%)

    In fourteenth place

    58 Discount Armageddon by Seanan McGuire (5.21%)

    NOVELLA

    Made the ballot – second most votes

    90 “San Diego 2014: The Last Stand of the California Browncoats” by Mira Grant (15.33%)

    NOVELETTE

    Two finalists. The top vote-getter was in third place.

    54 “In Sea-Salt Tears” by Seanan McGuire (8.77%)
    38 “Rat-Catcher” by Seanan McGuire (6.17%)

    “Rat Catcher” had the sixth-most nominations—it moved up onto the ballot when Mary Robinette Kowal’s audiobook “The Lady Astronaut of Mars”(which had the third most nominations) was ruled ineligible.

    SHORT STORY

    This story had the fourth most votes, but failed to make the ballot under the five-percent rule:

    30 “No Place Like Home” by Seanan McGuire (4.53%)

    These stories had the seventh, eighth and tenth most nominations —

    28 “One Hell of a Ride” by Seanan McGuire (4.23%)
    28 “We Will Not Be Undersold!” by Seanan McGuire (4.23%)
    24 “The Flower of Arizona” by Seanan McGuire (3.63%)

    BEST FANCAST

    SF Squeecast had the most votes of any nominee.

    91 SF Squeecast, Elizabeth Bear, Paul Cornell, Seanan McGuire, Lynne M. Thomas, Catherynne M. Valente (Presenters) and David McHone-Chase (Technical Producer) (26.30%)

    BEST FANWRITER

    Didn’t make the ballot – had the tenth most votes

    31 Seanan McGuire (6.39%)

    There were a lot of things that got 30 votes in a category and didn’t make the 2013 final ballot – and of course nobody was talking about them having a “rabid fanbase”. Seanan McGuire/Mira Grant actually did have broad support relative to other nominees.

16. Dann665: Contrarius’ opinion is reasonable and was offered with (IMHO) reasonable qualifiers. If fact, that opinion is reasonably congruent with my position as it has evolved over the years.

    Then what did you base your evolving opinion on?

17. @Mike —

    On the face of it, I don’t think your stats do much of anything. We’ve already seen from the puppy years (as well as the Doctor Who years) how easy it was for a small group to get works nominated.

    (And no, before anyone gets overwrought, I’m not AT ALL saying that McGuire fans are the same as puppy fans. Remember, again, I VOTED TO NOMINATE Middlegame. I’m only pointing out the weakness of relying on those numbers to form conclusions.)

    And again, I’m not claiming my impression/opinion as fact. It’s merely my personal impression, and it may very easily not reflect objective reality in this case.

    Oh, and PS — I wasn’t voting in 2013, and I know nothing about what folks might or might not have said about nominations at that time.

18. Contrarius: On the face of it, I don’t think your stats do much of anything

    I knew they weren’t going to do anything for YOU — (1) you already said your opinion wasn’t fact-based, and (2) nobody ever admitted they were wrong on the internet. I just needed to work with some factual information so that readers would realize it could be done, even if they hadn’t seen it so far today.

19. @Mike —

    (2) nobody ever admitted they were wrong on the internet.

    Heh. I think I’ve admitted to being wrong on the internet three or four times in the last coupla weeks alone. Of course, those instances were about fact-based claims — in those cases, plant IDs — and the discussion here is mostly about personal opinions.

20. Contrarius: You’re not under the impression that personal opinions publicly expressed are immune to challenge, so maybe it’s time for you to stop digging.

21. There’s so much evidence of Seanan McGuire’s general popularity (and, in particular and most relevant to Hugo voting, popularity in con-going fandom – she’s long been an attendee and guest and filker) that I feel kind of surprised that it’s at all in doubt, from anyone? It’s just very obvious and very everywhere? Including on these very comment sections? Multiple publishers aren’t putting out that many books by her out of some sense of charity, she sells well, she’s very prolific, she’s got an entertaining internet presence, she has interesting ideas that she puts into her work, and she’s very, very popular.

    I prefer as a personal thing and a reader to have a diverse ballot with lots of turnover year-to-year and different winners and so on. But, like, mostly I get that; a couple of authors being consistently popular and consistently putting out lots of good work that people like enough to nominate… well, they don’t generally take up very many slots, and anyway it isn’t like I don’t have my own particular favourites (waves tiny “will read almost anything Naomi Novik produces at least once, professional or fannish” flag). And of course there’s always the longlist.

    Putting it on any individual author, in the comments of the finalists announcement post, where they’re quite likely to read it, well, I have certainly failed to keep my typin’ fingers to myself when I should’ve, but I can understand why McGuire would have felt a little deflated and upset to read it.

22. @Meredith —

    Multiple publishers aren’t putting out that many books by her out of some sense of charity, she sells well, she’s very prolific, she’s got an entertaining internet presence, she has interesting ideas that she puts into her work, and she’s very, very popular.

    I’ve said many times that I think she’s a very talented writer, and it’s pretty obvious that she works her butt off and that she sells very well.

    OTOH, there are lots of other very talented and prolific and high-selling writers out there who don’t get nominated. (Possibly not ones as prolific as McGuire — I don’t know if anyone in the entire world writes as much as she does!)

    There’s nothing wrong with having a rabid fanclub, or with being in one. I’m a card-carrying member of a couple of rabid fanclubs myself.

23. You see, Meredith, Contrarius is just going to keep beating the “rabid fan base drum”. You’d think we were talking to The Phantom.

24. @Mike —

    You’d think we were talking to The Phantom.

    Oh, God, no, not that! Anything but that!

    😉

25. @Contrarius

    There were a number of points I made with regard to her general popularity throughout fandom beyond simple sales.

    @Mike Glyer

    So it seems.

26. @Mike,
    Sorry you are catching grief from Twitter commentators.

    I was bewildered when I first saw it & stifled my own impulse to argue that one File770 comment does not a hivemind make.

    I saw from the follow-up comments that some of those replying had already made up their minds that File770 was “a hive of scum & villainy” and nothing I could say was going to change their minds.

27. Soon Lee: I saw from the follow-up comments that some of those replying had already made up their minds that File770 was “a hive of scum & villainy” and nothing I could say was going to change their minds.

    Yeah, labelling a site as “trash” and “a sewer” because a commenter has expressed a different opinion than one’s own is some seriously childish entitled bullshit. How do those people manage to co-exist with others in a world where their opinions are not universal? They must just be continually whining and spewing outrage. 🙄

28. No-one’s obligated to like us, but I do wish they wouldn’t take out their opinion of us-the-commenters on File770-the-fanzine and/or Mike Glyer-the-person. It’s hardly fair.

    Or the hivemind thing, that really annoys me, if you’re going to decide you don’t like us at least don’t claim we all think the same stuff.

    (Or that we-the-hivemind think John Ringo is the Hero of basically any Hour, because. What. No. I object. If they absolutely must inflict that blasted hivemind nonsense on us, why can’t they ever decide that my opinions are the hivemind opinions? Why are they always more or less the opposite? I resent that I never get to be the Designated Hivemind Representative! I demand a rota! Or at least, like, statistical analysis, so it isn’t just “that one opinion they disagreed with the most that was expressed by one commenter” every flipping time. Or maybe – just an idea here, but this one is my favourite – they could use Mike’s opinions as the Official File770 Opinion instead. Instead of blaming him for all the shit the rest of us get up to. That would be cool.)

29. Meredith: I must have missed the John Ringo veneration hour.

30. @Mike Glyer

    I am truly, truly baffled by that one.

31. Mike Glyer: I must have missed the John Ringo veneration hour.

    All I saw of that was that McGuire felt criticized about not voicing an opinion of him being made a guest at ConCarolinas, but as far as I’ve been able to find, no one criticized her for not saying something — in fact, people felt that it showed class on her part to not say anything.

    If there were claims made on Twitter that commenters here are big fans of Ringo, they were made by people who obviously don’t read the comments here and have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    I also saw a complaint about Benford’s rant being posted here — when said rant was pretty much universally criticized and panned by the File 770 commenters (and I am sure Mike knew when he posted it that was exactly what would happen, and if he hadn’t wanted it to happen, he wouldn’t have posted it), something the complainer didn’t seem to notice.

    There are people who don’t seem to get the idea of posting odious things here in the sunlight where they can be publicly criticized and demolished by commenters instead being relegated to private forums where only the people who agree with said odious things are aware of them and applaud them. 😐

32. I once went to a party and had a very bad experience. I couldn’t stay and had to go out walking for two hours just to calm my feelings. Afterwards, I felt that like the whole party had been a place with barely hidden smirks and scorn.

    I had to talk with a lot of friends that it had really been only one person that I had interacted with that had behaved badly and that was because of a misunderstanding. But that one persons act had coloured how I viewed the whole party. It didn’t help that most people there were strangers.

    So yeah, I think bad comments can really affect how you view a site. Even if they are a minority. Because those are the ones that hurt and the ones you remember.

33. And I think the big problem is really that people are nowadays are blowing off steam in public and in writing. It is one thing sitting among your friends bitching about how shitty you think something is. You don’t have to be rational, generous, or fair. Because you are only letting off steam and how you feel in the moment.

    But when it becomes public, is in writing so people can spread it around, make sure that totally different people see it, then there’s a real problem because it starts to generate longterm ill-feelings that might not have been intended. This group here discuss those others there. Those people.

    I’ve been thinking of quitting social media for a while now.

34. considerable irony in this altercation …

35. @JJ: How do those people manage to co-exist with others in a world where their opinions are not universal? By not talking trigger subjects with coworkers, and spending too much of their free time in echo chambers.

36. Re: Hivemind – I am the exception that voids that allegation. Y’all are welcome! [not seriously…there’s a fair range of opinions without mine]

    @Mike

    Experience. Time. Discussion. Reflection. People can learn and adjust. My perspective has shifted a bit over the years.

    @JJ

    “How do those people manage to co-exist with others in a world where their opinions are not universal?”

    I ask that question (internally) on a regular basis. It’s a big world.

    Regards,
    Dann
    Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It’s the transition that’s troublesome. – Isaac Asimov

37. It’s amazing how long it takes just to order a good face mask on Etsy. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

    I hope everyone who wants to wear Star Wars or Superman or Harry Potter on their faces has been able to find suitable purveyors of same. For myself, most of my preferred patterns are sold out, and I’m too impatient to wait for more to come into stock.

    Sigh. It’s always something!

    And I absolutely agree with whomever noted that staying at home nurtures internet upsets. So much increase in frustration, so much decrease in normal outlets! Myself, I’m off to finish a raised bed and haul a bunch of dirt and plant a lot of stuff. I hope everyone here finds similarly constructive and/or entertaining things to do this afternoon!

38. I’m very happy to see fewer people using masks. Those I see wearing them today have no idea what they’re doing and are more likely to spread the virus because of they are handling them. No real fit, adjusting them all the time, touching them, removing and putting them on again. All to increase condensation and make sure that their hands are covered with droplets.

    Thank god I’m immune now.

39. @Hampus —

    I’m very happy to see fewer people using masks.

    Since our CDC has just started recommending them, and since we’re still in the uphill side of the pandemic curve in this area, I went ahead and ordered some for me and my sister-in-law. I got ones with metal wire at the nose, and fitted ones rather than the pleated ones.

    But I doubt that even people who don’t know what they’re doing are actually more likely to spread the virus than without any mask, since it’s been widely reported that the biggest risk is from airborne aerosols rather than from picking up surface-based droplets. Even clueless folks will be keeping most of their aerosols to themselves in a mask.

    Anyway — I delayed going outside to order some hand sanitizer as well, since I was on an ordering roll. NOW I’m going outside, really and truly!

40. Well, it seems File 770 is now the Newspaper of Record of the genre world-and these days NoRs get hit attacked. Sorry you got hit like this Mike.

41. Trying to be disciplined this year: I’ve read a story a day since Tuesday (today was the Pinsker (wow!)); also bought Middlegame today so I can pivot to novels when I finish off some current reads. It begins!

42. Well, the only novel I hadn’t already read is the Harrow. So that makes things a little easier. On the other hand, I’m only familiar with two of the series, so I’ve still got some reading ahead of me….

43. @Standback: Thanks for the link; I’ll check it out. 🙂 That looks like the kind of short story I like.

44. Pingback: Some Thoughts on the Hugo Award Finalists, Part II: The 2020 Hugo Awards | Cora Buhlert

45. Pingback: Top 10 Posts for April 2020 | File 770

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