aka “My name is Canis Dolorosa. You ganked my rocket. Prepare to die.”
Today’s heavily self-referential roundup trots out John Scalzi, Chuck Wendig, C. Robert Cargill, Michael Rapoport, Vox Day, Cephus, Nicholas Whyte, L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright, Vann R. Newkirk II, Lis Carey, Spacefaring Kitten, Alexandra Erin, William Reichard, Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little , Happyturtle, ULTRAGOTHA, jayn, Sarah, J.C. Salomon, Steve and Jim Henley. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Paul Weimer and Alexandra Erin.)
Puppies parsing my sales numbers at http://t.co/1rtJ17UJXt. Can't decide between "bless their hearts" and "oh, my dear sweet summer child."
— John Scalzi (@scalzi) May 15, 2015
@ChuckWendig @SamSykesSwears @scalzi "It puts the Hugo in the basket or it gets the hose again!"
— C. Robert Cargill (@Massawyrm) May 15, 2015
Michael Rapoport in the Wall Street Journal
“The Culture Wars Invade Science Fiction” – May 15
Mr. Scalzi likens the Puppies’ campaigns to the backlash that women and minorities have faced in other geek-culture arenas—notably “Gamergate,” the videogamers’ campaign widely associated with threats against feminist videogame critics.
But Larry Correia, another Sad Puppies organizer, doesn’t see the Puppies’ campaign as a backlash against diversity. “That’s a narrative they came up with to try to discredit us,” he says. He and Mr. Torgersen have distanced themselves from Mr. Beale’s extreme views, but the Rabids are “still fans, they’re still people, their votes still count.”
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“the most despised man in science fiction” – May 15
Despised, feared, it’s pretty much all the same, isn’t it? The Wall Street Journal takes note of the Hugo Awards, with an article entitled “The Culture Wars Invade Science Fiction Online campaigners are pushing to give SF’s annual Hugo Awards to popular space yarns, not more literary fiction or tales of diversity”. It’s not entirely negative despite the reporter feeling the need to get the opinion of two writers, John Scalzi and George Martin, who don’t know a damn thing about what the Puppies are doing. But regardless, the main thing is that the reporter correctly grasped that this is a new front in the cultural war and not a self-serving attempt to pick up meaningless trophies.
Difster VFM #109 in a comment on Vox Popoli – May 15
They WSJ (anagram for SJW I might note) was not entirely negative.
Cephus on Bitchspot
“The SJWs Lose at the Hugo Awards” – May 15
It is time that people rise up against this kind of absurd liberal oppression, where it’s political correctness that means more than actual merit. The Hugo Awards were not designed to award people for their social consciousness, but for their work in the field of writing science fiction and fantasy. It doesn’t matter what you think, it matters what you write. The same is true of television and movies, where it shouldn’t make a difference what a director or an actor or a producer thinks, only the end-product of their labors. Unfortunately, these liberal idiots get butt-hurt because someone doesn’t follow the social justice collective and they must set out to call them names, harm their careers and deny them their due for what they’ve actually done with their lives. Is it any wonder there’s such a backlash against liberal stupidity these days? Here’s hoping it keeps up and picks up in the future.
Nicholas Whyte on From The Heart of Europe
“My vote for Best Novel” – May 15
Matt Foster has made a good argument in favour of not only voting No Award above all slate nominees, but also voting No Award top in all categories where there are only one or two non-slate contenders, on the basis that the slate organisers have denied us a proper choice in those categories too. I find myself sympathetic to this line of thought. I was already planning to put No Award top in Best Novelette (because I was not impressed by the one non-slate finalist) and Best Fan Writer (because the one non-slate finalist has been nominated for a single piece of work rather than for a body of work over the last year), though in both cases I will rank the non-slate finalist second to minimise the chance of a slate win.
I had been going to vote for Julie Dillon as the one non-slate finalist in Best Professional Artist, but I shall consider Matt Foster’s’s arguments carefully; if the choice is Julie Dillon or nobody, is that really a choice? I like her work in general, but I don’t actually like the category anyway (which is a different argument for a different time), and this year’s ballot is deeply flawed due to the intervention of the slatemongers. Again, she will get at least a second preference from me, to reduce the chance of a slate nominee winning.
Anyway, for Best Novel these arguments no longer apply, since the honourable withdrawal of one of the (unwitting) slate nominees has given us three excellent books to choose from, each of which would be an acceptable winner in a normal year. Ranking them is difficult, but it’s got to be done. My vote is as follows.
L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright on Superversive SF
“Hugo Nominee Interview: Mike Williamson” – May 13
1) All the Sad Puppies selections came from a list of stories that fans felt were their favorites from 2014. What about your story do you think brought it to the attention of whomever suggested it?
Obviously, they, like me, hate humanity and want children to die. I would like to thank Brad for seeing through the haze and realizing I’m a scorching liberal right wing gay-agenda-endorsing homophobe and terrible parent who’s teaching his mixed race children to be white supremacists. And with the assistance of Gamergate, the Illuminati and Elvis, I might actually win to spread our Gospel.
Vann R. Newkirk II on Gawker Review of Books
“The City Is a Crossroads: Daniel José Older on Protest Art and Urban Lit” – May 15
Do you consider decisions like that in your work to be political, whatever that entails?
I do. Well, I consider all books to be political. I think if you ask authors on any side of the spectrum whether they meant to write a political book or not, most would tell you that they just went into it to write a book and a great story and didn’t intentionally include politics, but I would like to call bullshit on that. We are always including our politics. You can actually not do that, and we do ourselves an injustice when we pretend to not be conscious of it. I’m very strategic in how I choose to bring politics into my writing and I can’t think of any other writing advice that tells you to not be conscious or strategic about stuff. There’s this idea that if you don’t think about politics, it’ll just seep through. And for some people that’s true.
To bring it around to the Hugos, you’ll see this conversation pop up in the sense of the Sad Puppies folks lamenting that suddenly science-fiction and fantasy have become political, as if Tolkien wasn’t thoroughly writing a political book about the supremacy of western culture. There’s nothing more political than that; it’s just so normalized that people read it as, ‘Oh it’s just another fantasy story.’ You have a message; it’s just a message that’s normalized. People act like only folks coming from the left have a message to give, and that’s bullshit. These are very political books, and they always have been. Fantasy and sci-fi have always been a political project. Look at Lovecraft….
So, more about the Hugos and the Sad Puppies stuff. Do you think the back and forth represents something of the larger cultural conflicts going on?
Yes. Definitely. First of all, it represents people who are again so normalized to the idea of their comfort being provided for that they freak out entirely the second that it’s slightly off-kilter. Because sci-fi and fantasy have always been a very white, very straight, very heteronormative, male political project. A very colonial project. In the past couple years, their big complaint is that suddenly people that aren’t them are winning awards, winning Hugos and that is cause for them to, you know, create this great big stir and takeover.
When we’re in a time when we have to proclaim in the streets that Black Lives Matter, literature is one of the first places where we learn what matters and whose life matters and whose doesn’t. And literature has been saying for centuries that black lives don’t matter. By not publishing black authors, by not publishing books about black people, that’s become the message by default. Whiteness being the default has been the message. So, the fact that we now have to fight to just get a fair Hugo ballot because a few people have hurt feelings and want to grasp at relevancy after decades of this really destructive form of erasure from fantasy and sci-fi absolutely speaks to the movement in the streets today, to what’s going on with the police, to what’s going on in politics. Literature is always a reflection of society and society is always a reflection of literature, and when publishing is as white as it is, we have to look at those numbers and understand that they are connected. They are 100 percent connected. There’s no way to disconnect them. But people always want to act surprised.
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“The Triple Sun: A Golden Age Tale, by Rajnar Vajra” – May 15
There’s a story here, and it’s decently written. Unfortunately, it’s also a bit cliched, and in some ways strains my suspension of disbelief in ways that are not good.
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Earth to Alluvium, by Gray Rinehart” – May 15
This is a competently, professionally done story, and a good read. I recommend it on that basis. However, it’s no more than competent and professional, and a Hugo winner needs to be more than just competent and professional.
Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring, Extradimensional Happy Kittens
“’Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Earth to Alluvium’ by Gray Rinehart” – May 15
The plotting would have needed some more work, even if the story is decently written. There’s just too much talking heads to keep me intrested. Now the whole story was about the dying guy’s friend finding out what it was all about, but the really interesting part would have been what happens next and what further complications there will be. It’s frustrating when a story fails to focus on the most interesting aspects of its proposition.
Adult Onset Atheist
“SNARL: The Parliament of Beasts and Birds” – May 14
I picked up this book expecting SF/F, and I was disappointed. Imagine someone going to the store and buying a box of “Best NUTTY NUGGETS Ever” because they love “NUTTY NUGGETS”, only to find that they were so awful they might not even be “NUTTY NUGGETS”, and were quite inedible. Then imagine them going back to the store and buying another box of “Best NUTTY NUGGETS Ever” only to find out that they were similarly not even edible “NUTTY NUGGETS”. I’m sure they would be Sad, and maybe even Mad; some people might do things that were Bad. “SAD, MAD, BAD” sounds like a children’s book, and so does this story. It has talking animals that start to walk upright because … God.
Adult Onset Atheist
“SNARL: On a Spiritual Plain” – May 14
Dead people on the planet Ymilas get trapped as ghosts, when they get tired of that they travel to giant Stonehenge at the pole to “move on”. It is a weak premise executed poorly.
Doctor Science on Obsidian Wings
“The Demolished Puppy” – May 15
The setting: An Account of Juliette Wade’s Withdrawal from Sad Puppies 3, at File770….
The surreality was seeing Torgersen re-write someone’s motives to their face, while people were watching. It’s always difficult to get a real sense of social atmosphere over the internet, but it seemed to me that I was watching Torgersen’s reputation sink before my eyes, in real time. It certainly happened for me….
In case it’s not clear to you why I was appalled: Torgersen talked at length and repeatedly about how Wade was motivated by fear, and never seems to have noticed that (a) she never said nor implied that was true, and (b) she was really pissed that he attributed made-up motivations to her.
And the rest of us just stood there (digitally), watching while Torgersen kept trying to re-write a history we could read by scrolling up.
Alfred Bester‘s The Demolished Man won the first Hugo Award for best Novel, in 1953. The Demolished Man is about a murder, but it’s not a mystery: we know from the start (because he’s a POV character) that Ben Reich killed his business rival Craye D’Courtney, after Reich proposed a merger and D’Courtney turned him down. But [SPOILERS] the detective on the case is baffled, because Reich seems to have no motive: D’Courtney sent Reich a message accepting his offer.
In the end, we find out that Reich mis-heard the message, because he was already determined to kill D’Courtney — who, it turned out, was his biological father.
Bester makes the whole reveal pretty Freudian, which didn’t impress me when I read the book in the 1970s and is rather quaint now. But watching Torgersen editing his perceptions in real time, the plot of The Demolished Man starts to seem much less contrived, much more psychologically realistic.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“Sad Puppies Review Books: MAKE WAY FOR DUCKLINGS” – May 15
Reviewed by John Z. Upjohn, USMC (Aspired)
If you want evidence of the deep rot that has infested the once-great Caldecott Medal, look no further than this book, which is a putrid example of ham-handed message fiction given an award by Feminazi SJWs basically as a participation prize for having a “strong female protagonist who doesn’t need a man”….
Why doesn’t she just open a Patreon account while she’s at it? She could tell the sob story about how she was almost hit by a bicycle and the victim bucks would come pouring in, let me tell you. They all have Patreons for some reason even though they produce nothing of value to anyone. It’s nothing but welfare for hipsters. It should be illegal…..
Did you know that only fifteen people in all the world choose the winner of the Caldecott every year? How are the opinions of fifteen people supposed to determine “most distinguished American picture book for children”, I ask you?
Will in a comment on File 770 – May 15
I stopped commenting at File770 and all I got was this stupid T-shirt
Happyturtle in a comment on File 770 – May 15
For Puppies Sad did Torgersen
A stately rocket ship decree:
While mouths of many loudly ran
Through websites measureless to man
As long as wifi’s free.Had we but slates enough and time,
This Hugo, Puppy, were no crime.
We would sit and discuss which tales
We love and which we think are fails.I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence
Two ballots diverged at a con – Sasquan! –
I chose the one less voted on,
And that has made all the difference.
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little in a comment on iFile 770 – May 15
I’m a Puppy! Who are you?
Are you all — Puppies — too?
Then there’s a bloc of us!
Don’t tell! they’d banish us — you know!
How sad — to be — an Ess Jay Dub!
How PC — like a CHORF —
They bully us — the live-long Spring —
WOOF WOOF — ARF-ARF-ARF!…ok, it kind of fell apart there at the end.
ULTRAGOTHA in a comment on File 770 – May 15
This is Just to Say
We have nominated
The stories
That were on
The ballot
And which
You were probably
Hoping
For better stories
Forgive us
Revenge is delicious
So sweet
And so cold
jayn in a comment on File 770 – May 15
For each Pup kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a crummy book,
Some with a whiny word…
Sarah in a comment on File 770 – May 15
Now my pups are all o’erthrown,
And what sads I have’s mine own,
Which is most faint: now, ’tis true,
I must receive awards from you,
Or sent to Spokane. Let me not,
Since I have my Hugo got,
And pardon’d the SJWs, dwell
In this bare website by your spell;
But release me from Amazons,
With the help of your book bombs.
Gentle praise in your emails,
Must fill, or else my project fails.
Alexandra Erin in a comment on File 770 – May 15
I am the very model of a modern Canine-Miserable.
I’ve indignations slight, imagined, and quite risible.
I know the Nielsen Haydens, and I quote their slates historical
from novellete to best short form on ballots categorical;
I’m very well acquainted, too, with matters dialectical,
and syllogisms, both implied and also quite elliptical,
About rhetorical speaking I’m teeming with a lot of news
with many outraged squeals about the lies of SJWs.
I’m very good at inference and attributing animus,
I know the things I know are true without any analysis.
In short, in outrage slight, imagined, and quite risible,
I am the very model of a modern Canine-Miserable.
J. C. Salomon in a comment on File 770 – May 14
With the Hugo coverage on File 770 going meta like this—half the links are to comments made on this blog—is it fair to say there’s a puppy chasing its tail here? ?
Steve in a comment on Vox Popoli – May 15
[Speculating about who will accept Vox Day’s Hugo at Sasquan.]
Because I like the idea that, as soon as your name is mentioned by a grimacing David Gerrold, a fell cry rends the air and freezes the blood of every CHORF present…
The ceiling groans as if in hideous pain, then there is a hellish crash as concrete and tile yield to an enormous creature. The minion lands in the middle of the convention, its iron boots striking the floor with a terrifying thud, then flexes its vast, midnight-black leathery wings to shake off the dust.
It points an armoured finger at Gerrold, a thin wisp of sulphurous smoke curling from its clawed tip.
“The Lord of Fear sends his regards. I am his emissary. Give me the trinket.”
Gerrold cringes and hides behind Due as the minion ascends to the podium.
“My Dark Lord authorises me to bid you thanks for this trifling bauble, and to assure most of you that he wishes you no specific harm. As a token of his noblesse oblige he advises those of you who are afraid of giant sentient scorpions to avoid the Losers Party this evening. You may find it… distressing. That is all.”
Clutching his trophy, the minion runs at the windows and leaps through the glass, its wings pounding the air as it departs in malevolent triumph.
David Gerrold attempts to compose himself.
“And… umm… the n-next award goes to…. OH… FFFUUUUUUUU….”
“What’s wrong?”, cries Due.
“I-it’s T-tom K-kratman…” sobs Gerrold, just as the gun turret of a Tiger tank erupts through the back wall…
Jim Henley in a comment on File 770 – May 15
If you were a dinosaur, my love, you would be a time-traveling dinosaur, who retroactively justified Sad Puppies 1 and 2, launched before your nomination was known. Your scales would shimmer with tachyons.
If you were a dinosaur, my love, you would be all puppies could talk about, because dinosaurs are freaking cool, and big and scary, and puppies are small and easily frightened.
If you were a dinosaur, my love, you would be free on the internet, and short enough to read quickly, with an easily digested precis, so that all your critics could get through you or at least take the word of someone who had without being obviously wrong on the facts. So you would be an easy example of What Has Gone Wrong With All Reptiles even though you were but a single dinosaur. You would be the dinosaur that stops all conversations before they start.
If you were a dinosaur, my love, you would be a magic dinosaur that irradiates a field that makes some people reeeeeeaaaaaaalllllyyyyyy lazy. “What about all the other dinosaurs?” others would say. But the people in the field would respond, “Hey, man. Why do you keep nagging me?”
https://twitter.com/henrydampier/status/599038965472079872
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The only series I recall reading recently where the primary character was gay, and it was an actual plot point, was the “A Land Fit For Heroes” trilogy by Richard Morgan, with the viewpoint character for the first and one of the viewpoint characters for the later stories being gay in a nation that despises gays. He’s also a hero, which is defined as a psychotic bastard with a sword, which is why he gets away with it – but not so much his former lovers, on which hangs a story…
@S1AL –
OK, I’m a little confused here.
You have said, I think, that you dislike “message” fiction.
You also just said (see above), that you consider a story that has a fully-realized gay character is “message” fiction.
The implication I seem to be getting from your “meh” about the character who is a character, but just happens to be gay, that you do not see that the fact of the character being gay is important, and should be left out, as it is an unnecessary elaboration in that character’s profile.
It really sounds, from the cheap seats here, that you really don’t want *any* gay characters in the stories.
If that is not so, can you please elaborate on when/how a gay character *can* be introduced?
Catching up:
S1AL: The opposite situation would be talk radio, where conservatives represent something like 90% of the audience. I think you’re also confusing what “mainstream” conservatives think with what liberal pundits *say* mainstream conservatives think.
Note that talk radio is a rapidly shrinking audience. As for what “mainstream” conservatives think; 1) define “mainstream”. Is Pat Robertson mainstream? Bill O’Reilly? Sean Hannity? Rush Limbaugh? Rick Santorum? 2) We can just as easily go by what they say.
My point is that SF&F competes against the entertainment time and dollar of teens and young adults. And it is losing.
Are you kidding me? Let’s just wander through the box office numbers, TV show ratings, and video game sales. Let’s just take movies: of the top ten 2015 domestic grosses, five are SF/F: Avengers, Cinderella, Home, Insurgent, Kingsmen.
Alexvdl: Teddy actually thinks that he’s going to get a Hugo this year.
Particularly when he says things like, “The widespread sexual aberrancy in the SF community was one of the many reasons I wanted nothing to do with it after my one mercifully brief encounter with Sad Freakville at Minicon. You have not seen true human wreckage until you’ve been to a science fiction convention. I’ve seen physically and psychologically healthier people on reservations and in refugee camps…” which is always a good way to win over voters at science fiction conventions.
@ XS on May 16, 2015 at 12:02 pm said:
Or birds. Which means probably homosexual dinosaurs! Very cool!! “If Only You Were A Homosexual Dinosaur, My Love” would be a cool story poem, eh?
Glenn Hauman –
Gods, the comments on that cesspool of VD’s are even worse than the mainline posts. And VD is right in the threads, eggin’ ’em on.
And, yeah, even with the chance to actually see the primary sources they insist on rewriting what was said.
In the case of the rewrite of an account of why an author wanted her story disassociated from the puppy slate, all you had to do was scroll the thread back. In the case of the mischaracterization of what was said in regards to VD not getting top honors for being despised, the direct link to the source was provided.
But it looks more like to actually *check* would be to violate their trust in their deity, and to be branded an apostate in that crowd must be downright nightmarish.
One of the more bizarre things is seeing the rewrite of history being done by the puppies, and realizing that it feels so familiar because we’ve seen it in Orwell’s 1984 and Phillip K. Dick’s The penultimate Truth
It’s not my fault if you don’t understand that there’s more than one axis of politics.
Most libertarians in the U.S. aren’t on a different axis of politics. They are, by and large, conservatives who just don’t like calling themselves conservatives.
I also don’t remember saying anything about my politics.
I wasn’t talking about you pretending to be libertarian.
@Craig R Re: vox comments
Oh, lord, I made the mistake of going over there earlier today, was curious to see responses to AlexandraErin. I couldn’t find those, but I did see somebody quoting GRRM talking about how Hugos don’t just go to elevated literary works that aren’t fun, with his example being “Redshirts”. The Dread Elk who was quoting this just implied along the lines of how this was wrong, because Redshirts…
So the Elk was apparently implying that Redshirts really was elevated English class level literature, and therefore bad. This seems a bit crazy, on both counts.
@Craig R. – No, not what I’m saying at all. By “meh” I mean “I don’t care either way.” I’m trying to think of a good example, but it’s difficult because prominent homosexual characters really are a rarity. Rick Riordan introduced one in his Olympia series that I thought went really well – it introduced some tension, explained some earlier developments, and surprised some people… and then the story moved along. The character was still gay, and still relevant, but that wasn’t the focus of the novel; the focus was the story.
For a TV Series example, HIMYM also did it really well with Barney’s brother.
An example of the opposite would be… well, a Quentin Tarantino movie (but actually serious): We’re some Jewish Americans who are in Germany to kill some Nazis because we’re Jewish and here’s our Jewish bear (he’s a BIG Jew, and btw did I mention we’re Jewish? At least there it was played up for laughs.
I think this is part of why the If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love got such a negative reaction from some sectors: the antagonists weren’t actual characters; they were abstract figments. Why did the protagonist (if that’s even the correct term) get beaten in a bar? Because DISCRIMINATION. Every kind of DISCRIMINATION. And those of us who live in the real world, with actual racists/bigots, look at this and think Y’know, that’s not how that kind of person acts in real life at all… And at that point the audience is left wondering why the author so blatantly destroyed the narrative.
Frankly, I feel the same way about 1984, The Great Gatsby, and Of Mice and Men. And that’s just the prominent examples. 1984 gets a bit of a pass simply on being so brilliant in perception, but I still think it’s awful fiction.
Another example of a social justice message done right is, of course, To Kill a Mockingbird. Well-developed characters, an interesting story, and a narrative that existed beyond the message. That’s the kind of fiction I want to read (though preferably with slightly less saintly main characters).
—
Glenn Hauman- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-listened-to_radio_programs
Radio passed the shrink point already and is steadily rebounding.
As far as “mainstream” goes, I would say that Limbaugh is at about the outer edge of it. Most conservatives, in my observation, care about the following in politics (no particular order): government waste, military strength, infrastructure, family stability, steady employment, practical education (academic or otherwise). Gay marriage is an interesting one, but less practically important to most.
Don’t get me started on Pat Robertson. I despise televangelists.
Aaron – “Most libertarians in the U.S. aren’t on a different axis of politics. They are, by and large, conservatives who just don’t like calling themselves conservatives.”
I’ll be sure to inform my left-libertarian friend that he’s not real when I see him again in a couple days. Oh, and the other one who just moved back. Same goes for the moderate libertarians who are anti-intervention, pro-gay-marriage, anti-big-government types. They’ll have a good laugh at that.
But live-and-let-live is apparently a very unpopular sentiment these days…
Re: comments over there: I’ve adopted a simple rule of thumb: the people who keep misspelling my name the same way Mr. Beale does are obviously parroting him and not checking original sources.
Thanks, Ted, for making it easy to tell.
For example, Beale lives in Italy, a country where the only Christian who really matters is called Francis, and he would find Beale’s views utterly repugnant, though of course he would forgive him; after all, he’s the Pope. I have no doubt that this pisses Beale off quite a lot, but there is absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Italy has a large majority of Catholics, but it does not, unlike the UK, have a state religion, and there are non-Catholic Christian minorities, including some that were around before the Reform when it was HARD.
“…maybe Sriduangkaew can take that hint too?”
Is there any reason to think she hasn’t? I agree entirely that the RH persona was pretty bloody dreadful, but these days she seems to be just writing stuff. Elegantly crafted stuff that doesn’t entirely float my boat, but writing.
If only. No, she’s dropped the nice gentle poor innocent soul mask and still trying to cause trouble, but ineffectually.
I am not that convinced of the elegantly crafted stuff, too, but that’s another rant.
For example, Beale lives in Italy…
There’s evidence that suggests he isn’t in Italy anymore. Or he’s got a heck of a commute. And the master gamesman doesn’t appear to be up on all the rules of the places he’s been hanging out… including places where libel is subject to criminal penalties, not civil ones.
‘But live-and-let-live is apparently a very unpopular sentiment these days…’
Listen, one of the Puppy Masters has plainly asserted that he is engaged in a witch hunt to root out ‘SJWs’ from a fandom, a convention and an award that he claims to despise. Mild mockery of the libertarian/conservative thing seems downright convivial in comparison.
“Live and let live”, eh? Let’s just look at a few Puppy statements (Never mind the sickening desire stated by John C. Wright to punch the frail and ill Terry Pratchett in the face for eloquently and rationally espousing voluntary euthanasia):
Larry Correia: “I fully admit, and am on record about starting this out of spite.”
Daddy Warpig: “Yo! #GamerGate! There’s a chance to humble SJW in Sci-Fi, too! Check it: monsterhunternation.com/2015/01/26/sad… Do your bit to fight the Jerk-iarchy!”
Daddy Warpig: “#GamerGate! Do the right thing… Hurt SocJus… Make puppies smile! monsterhunternation.com/2015/01/26/sad…”
Hosted on John C. Wright’s blog, dated January 13, 2015: “Here is why you might want to consider doing so even if the idea of spending $40 to poke a sharp stick in the collective eyes of the SJWs who are doing their level best to destroy the science fiction and fantasy literature you love for the next two years isn’t enough in its own right.
1. Hugo Awards are worth around $13,000 to an SJW, according to one Kameron Hurley. For a fraction of one percent of that, you can deny multiple SJWs their ability to commit Pink SF and force them to spend their time delivering pizzas instead. …”
Sarah Hoyt (speaking of what the Sad Puppies should do to “SJWs”): “I suggest we kick them while they’re down and make them fight for the awards and prestige they crave. Also, that we point at them and make duck noises.”
John C. Wright’s “olive branch” (his words) extended to “the other side” (his words): “Here are my terms: Halt the libels and lies and keep a civil tongue in your mouth, and there will be peace.
I offer no concessions in return because I have none to offer.”
junego:”Or birds. Which means probably homosexual dinosaurs! Very cool!! “If Only You Were A Homosexual Dinosaur, My Love” would be a cool story poem, eh?”
What was that obscure Tom Wilson Weinberg song again? “Lesbian Archaeopteryx?”
I think that British show about the time traveller -some sort of riff on Bill and Ted?- has recently been featuring a gay dinosaur as a rather popular character too.
S1AL: “I’ll be sure to inform my left-libertarian friend that he’s not real when I see him again in a couple days. Oh, and the other one who just moved back. Same goes for the moderate libertarians who are anti-intervention, pro-gay-marriage, anti-big-government types. They’ll have a good laugh at that.”
I have plenty of left-libertarian friends. Hell, I used to be one. That doesn’t make them common enough to matter, electorally. Weren’t you the one referring to Pauline Kael Syndrom up-thread? You’re falling victim to it yourself. We know these rare and wondrous creatures because we went looking for them. But having found them, and even surrounded ourselves with them for awhile maybe, we fall into error if we imagine they are somehow common.
Upthread, somebody – may have been you, may have been another Puppy, may have been one of those adorable “neutrals” – was trying to peg the LGBTQ population at 1.5% of the whole. There is no way the genuine left-libertarian population reaches even that level. (And yes, I’m familiar with push-polls like the World’s Smallest Political Quiz. These are designed to convince you you’re a libertarian without and just didn’t realize it.)
I’ll be sure to inform my left-libertarian friend that he’s not real when I see him again in a couple days. Oh, and the other one who just moved back. Same goes for the moderate libertarians who are anti-intervention, pro-gay-marriage, anti-big-government types.
You do that, and when you are ready to stop deluding yourself, you’ll realize that you just described “moderate libertarians” as aligning almost entirely with conservatives.
Peace: Those would be fairly straightforward and rational responses to censoriousness if one assumes a libertarian bent. Given that the primary assertion of many, SP especially, is that SJW’s are primarily censorious in their conduct – well, what else do you expect? There are several people in this comment thread who have repeatedly referred to SP supporters in far, far worse terms.
Jim Henley: Hard-libertarian? Sure. Those are a rare breed, period, just like hard-authoritarian types. But soft-libertarian? I don’t know how old you are, but I do know that it’s a far more common political stance among the younger voting generations (18-35) than it ever has been before. That means they’re going to start mattering very soon here, as they start actually going to the polls in large numbers. Much large than 1.5%*.
Aaron: THAT is your definition of conservative? Heh.
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*So, I went and looked at some of the numbers again. It appears that non-straight identification is closer to 3%, with 2% of that being homosexual, which still isn’t far off from 1.5%. Depends on which study one uses.
S1AL: Not one anti-Puppy poster, as nearly as I can tell, has referred to them as half-savages of the sort one arms oneself against, or as deserving of mob violence, or anything of the sort. When one guy did make a joke of violence against them, a sea of others rose up to say “Uncool!” There is no comparable incident of mass Puppy response to the lies and abuse their leaders so eagerly heap on the rest of us. We aren’t cackling with glee at the prospect of destroying their gathering spots or making it impossible for them to have their voices heard nor yearning for the day they all perish miserably; on the contrary, we rally in the interest of the safety and enjoyment of folks like Ms. English.
This won’t matter to you, I’m just noting it for the benefit of bystanders.
Anna
The UK does not have a state religion, unsurprisingly because England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are four separate and distinct countries with very different religious perspectives, and would take an exceedingly dim view of anyone suggesting that the Church of England is anything other than the Church of England.
S1AL said: “I think this is part of why the If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love got such a negative reaction from some sectors: the antagonists weren’t actual characters; they were abstract figments. Why did the protagonist (if that’s even the correct term) get beaten in a bar? Because DISCRIMINATION. Every kind of DISCRIMINATION. And those of us who live in the real world, with actual racists/bigots, look at this and think Y’know, that’s not how that kind of person acts in real life at all… And at that point the audience is left wondering why the author so blatantly destroyed the narrative.”
Yes, I’m sure that’s exactly what you were thinking. “Gee, that’s strange, anti-gay bigots never beat me up…so that means it clearly doesn’t happen.”
In actual fact, it happens about 1500 times a year. (Source: http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/hate-crimes-and-violence-against-lgbt-people) Even the people to whom it doesn’t or hasn’t happened are fully aware of the risks of being too open about their sexuality in public because of the people who do exactly what you say never happens. If that’s why that fiction struck you as false, you’re honestly not paying a whole lot of attention to the world around you.
please be gentle …
The feathered dinosaur set about gathering sticks
In hopes of a brood of chicks
Never knowing that it was kicking against the pricks
As a lesbian Archaeopteryx
“A house made of sticks instead of bricks?”
Said the other dinosaurs with snorts and clicks
“You might as well adorn an Ankylosaur with lipsticks”
“Since you’re a lesbian Archaeopteryx”
But she didn’t mind not being in the cliques
She continued to search the streams and cricks
For she knew the amphibian DNA tricks
What a smart lesbian Archaeopteryx!
Bruce Baugh: I don’t consider it an honest assertion to say that one person’s opinion of another from well before this entire kerfluffle is a good representation of the stated opinions of one side regarding the other. Anymore than I take the stated opinion that VD is a “horrible human being” who deserves a society where “someone can shoot him” as a representation of the other side’s opinion of SP… unless you would like me to take it that way, of course.
John Seavy – You completely misread my statement, intentionally or not. And, apparently, the story.
S1AL, I’d be more inclined to agree except that Beale, Correia, and Torgersen have all explained how the Puppies stuff is just a new front in their existing struggle. It’s all of a piece to them, and I take them at their word in this regard.
THAT is your definition of conservative? Heh.
When you are aligning yourself with Grover Norquist, Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio, yeah, you’re a conservative.
@S1AL: So when you said, “Why did the protagonist (if that’s even the correct term) get beaten in a bar? Because DISCRIMINATION. Every kind of DISCRIMINATION. And those of us who live in the real world, with actual racists/bigots, look at this and think Y’know, that’s not how that kind of person acts in real life at all…”
What exactly were you saying, if not that racist/bigots don’t beat people up in bars? Please, enlighten me.
So the Puppy campaigns are Affirmative Action for conservatives, then?
I’ve read “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love”. I would never have nominated it for the Hugo, I don’t consider it SF or fantasy and I’m not even certain if it’s a story. It’s beautifully written, but I would hardly consider it worthy of a Hugo nomination.
That said, the most believable part of the story to me, based on my own experience, is that someone could be beaten in a bar, for any reason, a misperception or no reason at all. I’m disabled and I’ve been beaten up simply because I’m different. I’ve been slid down a hallway after my textbooks because one guy was bored that day. There are people in this world who do these things because they CAN and/or they feel like doing them. Adding alcohol to the mix, as in a bar, makes the behavior MORE believable, not less.
As I work a lot with sexual minorities, a lot of my friends are transvestites. Even in Sweden, a country known for its acceptance of these minorities, they are often attacked on busses and on subway. Sometimes just rude comments, sometimes more. Even I, classic straight male, have had people shouting after me on the subway because of my work in creating safe spaces for this mix of alternative sexualities.
Violence and prejudice exists and is very common. Even from one minority against another.
So I am extremely happy when books and movies dare to show people from the LGBT-crowd as ordinary, three dimensional people and not just stereotypes. That they are visible, not seen as anything that should be in hiding. I guess it in someway might affect how I look at some works, but how much is hard to say.
What I can say is that I react very much against people who thinks LGBT-people should be invisible, should go back to hiding, shouldn’t dare to show who they are and what they like. And it will affect how I look at these people and their works.
And I think that is good thing.
A guy in my Monthly Meeting was beat up, with his friend, simply because the two of them were walking down the street together. Complete with anti-gay slurs. Neither was gay. The weren’t even holding hands. The were merely having a conversation while walking down the street. The guy in my meeting was in the hospital for days. His friend managed to get away after a few swings.
No one is safe as long as the instinctive reaction of men towards homosexuals is to beat them to death with ax handles and tire irons. No one. That part of If you were a Dinosaur, My Love is entirely grounded in our sad reality.
“It could be just that Conservatives are not (at the present) very good at creating art.”
Good logic, thus it could be just that Non-Asian minorities are not (at the present) very good at anything but short distance runs. That nation wide the odds of Asian males getting a perfect MATH SAT score are 1 out of 50, just means that Asian males like the Math Genre.
The International Guild of Realism promotes real art, and has many conservatives. Modern art started as a way to launder money that ended up with tasteless people buying the tokens which paid off tons of cocaine by mistake.
http://www.realismguild.com/CurrentExhibitions.html
Drug buyer “Ok I got the cocaine, put a blank canvas with poo on it for sale and I will buy it for $500k”, Seller “sure”, SJWChorf ” I am so glad that I outbid everyone else to get this pooart for $1million.”
I am going to click on that link RIGHT AWAY.
No one is safe as long as the instinctive reaction of men towards homosexuals is to beat them to death with ax handles and tire irons.
Rotherham UK cops & social workers admitted they ignored 1400+ little indigenous white girls being gang raped by 3rd world savage moslems because they are afraid of being called racist. If they wont do anything to help little white girls what would they do to help puffs?
I can tell you its not church going STR8, White, Christian men that are committing the crimes against gays. In fact queens cry when reality is shown to them like when the SF Gate published the demographics of bashing and other crimes. Blacks only make up 5% of San Francisco but commit the majority of the crimes. Blacks make up 8% of SF public schools but 71% of the arrests. In fact queens cry about cops noticing blacks crime against gays & Asians. What bothers me about a cop saying ” packs of Ni663r5 keep attacking FAQS” is the crime being committed not that its noticed as seen on http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3024732/3-San-Francisco-officers-face-suspensions-racist-tweets.html
Oh, good, another one.
Ah, the Beale-troll is back.
If you were a racist homophobic bigot my love…
Sounds like somebody failed house-training.
Where’s the conservative SF?
Mostly making a zillion bucks being published as near-future technothriller.
Read the list of pejoratives again. Tell me how any of that makes any sense. I don’t know how I can make it any clearer than by saying what I already said: the antagonists are not people. They are abstract figments. It’s literally acknowledged by the narrator. The author might as well have put in an asterisk with the note “I know this doesn’t make any sense and that real people don’t act this way, but just roll with it.” It doesn’t even rise to the level of caricature.
Real racists, real bigots, real hateful individuals – they do things for reasons, however awful those reasons may be. They don’t just, on a whim, decide they’re going to beat some dude at a bar cause… I dunno, reasons.
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Aaron: That is probably the most idiotically simplistic understanding of politics that I have ever seen. I agree with a huge variety of individuals on any number of topics. If I agreed with a liberal on 2 of 3 different points, would that make me a liberal? Heck, by the definition under which you operate, Hitler was a liberal because he disagreed with all of those stances.
‘Real racists, real bigots, real hateful individuals – they do things for reasons, however awful those reasons may be.’
Remember, folks, there’s always a reason for senseless violence.
“As I work a lot with sexual minorities, a lot of my friends are transvestites. Even in Sweden, a country known for its acceptance of these minorities, they are often attacked on busses and on subway. ”
Pardon me but is not Sweden the place with Stockholm burning cars for 5 nights in a row, moslems raping children of both genders, & blonds dying their hair dark to lessen the chance of rape. Who knew importing 3rd world savages into a land with nudist beaches would be a bad idea. http://pamelageller.com/2013/05/muslim-riots-grow-in-sweden-cars-burn-in-fifth-night-of-rampant-violence-burning-cars-smashing-windo.html/
If you where a disingenuous leftist that got gay bashed by 2 guys outside a gay bar, and when you went in and told people about it, but couldn’t describe your attackers by race when a 6’3″ man stood up and pulled out a .45 my love. The hugo award winning story of a member of http://www.pinkpistols.org/
I’m sensing that these things concern you.
‘Pardon me but is not Sweden’
I’m gonna go with no, probably not.
Give him a couple of minutes and I bet he’ll say that there are parts of London that Non-Muslims won’t enter.
Can we just take it as read that every “fact” BigGaySteve cites comes with a whacking great ‘Citation Needed’ after it? Because I’m reasonably sure that if Sweden had turned into some sort of post-apocalyptic caliphate it would have made the news. Or at the very least someone would have tweeted about it.
@S1AL: This is seriously the line you’re going with, huh? “Real racists don’t engage in acts of spontaneous violence against people they hate?” That’s actually, seriously the explanation you’re going with as to how I ‘misinterpreted’ you by pointing out that you were saying that bigots don’t just attack people and that they actually do and it’s been proved with statistics and you’re wrong in thinking that? Not even going to try a, “It was taken out of context”, just to keep us on our toes? Honestly, trolls these days. When I was a young man, we’d be hearing misquotes about the content of our character until the cows came home. 🙂
John Seavey – Fake quotes? Really? You’re either incapable of reading the words I actually wrote, or you’re intentionally misquoting me because you’re otherwise incapable of constructing a rational response. Either way, not worth my time.
@BigGaySteve:
Oh, the riots where just 50 meter from my apartment, so I can just laugh at your description. There were no rapes. It wasn’t “muslims” rioting. No blondes coloured their hair brown, you must be totally stupid to think that.
So I guess you just have the classig bigot imagination. Nothing new.
@S1AL: OH! You want quotes! Well, you should have said.
First, you said, “I think this is part of why the If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love got such a negative reaction from some sectors: the antagonists weren’t actual characters; they were abstract figments. Why did the protagonist (if that’s even the correct term) get beaten in a bar? Because DISCRIMINATION. Every kind of DISCRIMINATION. And those of us who live in the real world, with actual racists/bigots, look at this and think Y’know, that’s not how that kind of person acts in real life at all… And at that point the audience is left wondering why the author so blatantly destroyed the narrative.”
I responded with, “In actual fact, it happens about 1500 times a year. (Source: http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/hate-crimes-and-violence-against-lgbt-people) Even the people to whom it doesn’t or hasn’t happened are fully aware of the risks of being too open about their sexuality in public because of the people who do exactly what you say never happens. If that’s why that fiction struck you as false, you’re honestly not paying a whole lot of attention to the world around you.”
You responded back with, “You completely misread my statement, intentionally or not.”
I said back, “What exactly were you saying, if not that racist/bigots don’t beat people up in bars? Please, enlighten me.”
And you replied with, “Real racists, real bigots, real hateful individuals – they do things for reasons, however awful those reasons may be. They don’t just, on a whim, decide they’re going to beat some dude at a bar cause… I dunno, reasons.”
So let’s reconstruct. You said your problem with ‘If You Were a Dinosaur’ was that it didn’t give a motive to the racists for engaging in spontaneous violence, which was unrealistic. I pointed out, with facts and statistics that you didn’t dispute, that it was entirely realistic. You said I was misinterpreting you. I asked how. You said the exact same thing that was disproven previously, rewording it slightly. I pointed out that it was the same statement, still entirely and factually incorrect. You then claimed I misquoted you. So now, with your chain of quotes right in front of your face proving that you are, in fact, just repeating a discredited argument and that I have not misinterpreted your statement at all, will you be changing your mind about the unrealism of ‘If You Were a Dinosaur’? Or do we have some quality weaseling to look forward to?