(1) SANFORD BACK ON TWITTER. Jason Sanford has unlocked his Twitter account and written a 14-tweet update in a thread that starts here.
Sanford also updated an endnote to his Patreon article “Baen Books Forum Being Used to Advocate for Political Violence” with information provided by Mercedes Lackey.
[Note 7] According to the explanation in the list of banned Baen’s Bar topics, Mercedes Lackey posted a long rant on the forum about her distaste for Baen Books and Jim Baen personally, along with mentioning how she had been persecuted for being of a particular political bent. While it appears Lackey left the forum after that, Jim Baen “asked that the incident be stricken from discussion.”
Update: Mercedes Lackey reached out to me to say that the information shared on Baen’s Bar about why she left was simply not true. She says she left the forum after 9/11 when forum users were posting freely about murdering all Muslims. Lackey strongly attacked these posts in a long post on Baen’s Bar, but her post was heavily criticized by Tom Kratman and specifically John Ringo and Ringo’s followers. However, Lackey’s post and reasons for leaving said nothing about Jim Baen nor about Baen Books. She also says the note posted on the forum banning discussions around her leaving was written after Jim Baen passed, so he would have been unable to contradict it.
(2) RAMBO ON WHAT’S EXPECTED OF A GOH. Cat Rambo also has more comments on the controversy: “Opinion: More Fuel for the Recent Baenfire”.
In the couple of days since I first spoke about the furor evoked by Jason Sanford’s criticism of a specific subforum of Baen’s Bar, the discussion boards sponsored by Baen Books, for encouraging armed insurrection and white supremacy, a good bit has happened*.
One notable outcome is that DisCon has removed Toni Weisskopf as a Guest of Honor, making this statement…
… As I’ve talked about before, programming is an art. Who you pick as GoH is part of that. Often programming starts with the GoHs and fills in around them. And one of the (reasonable) expectations of a GoH is that they participate in a hearty chunk of programming. The GoHs are the literal faces of the convention, smiling out from the convention advertising and program books.
Bearing that in mind, DisCon had to ask was Is supporting a place where a bunch of people spend their time expressing their hatred of other members of the F&SF community something that makes a field more awesome? as well as What do we do, knowing that a choice to keep Weisskopf will be read as an endorsement of those words?
Words that support an armed coup. Words saying people with differing political beliefs should be killed. Words urging violence towards other people.
We talk about free speech, but with free speech comes responsibility for one’s words. Baen cannot disavow responsibility for those words, regardless of whether or not they happened because someone was asleep at the wheel….
(3) ADDRESSEE UNKNOWN. John Scalzi is sitting this one out. Or maybe a different one. He doesn’t actually say: “A Vague But Official Pronouncement About a Thing” at Whatever.
I know there is a thing! I know some of you want me to engage with the thing! I know this because you’ve sent me emails about the thing and I see the subject headers! I then delete the emails unread because I do not wish to engage with this thing! Engaging with this thing will not make me happy! I find myself looking at it and being glad it is not actually my problem!
So: Have fun with this thing without me!…
(4) NORMA K HEMMING AWARDS NEWS. The 2021 Norma K Hemming Awards will be held over until 2022, for a combined two-year consideration period.
This decision has been made due to several factors, including COVID-19, juror fatigue, and administrative changes. Please note that all 2020 and 2021 publications will be eligible when the Awards next run.
On a related note, Norma K Hemming Award Administrator Tehani Croft has resigned from this position.
Tehani would like to thank Rose Mitchell, outgoing Australian Science Fiction Foundation president, for her support, vision and efforts to ensure the Awards are relevant. This work could not have been achieved without her, and it has been very much appreciated by the community, particularly those creators whose work could be recognised, and by the audiences the Award reaches.
(5) SMELL THE ROSES. Tim Waggoner advises writers to enjoy their professional journey in “Writing in the Dark: So You’re Never Going to be Stephen King” at Writing in the Dark.
…So why have I written what sounds like an extended brag about how awesome I am? So I could tell you this: I’ve pushed and pushed and pushed myself for almost four decades now, and sometimes I don’t feel like a success at all. I don’t think I’m a failure – there’s too much evidence that I’m not – but I feel as if true success is always just out of my reach. Sometimes it makes me feel like my career has been kind of a cruel cosmic joke, and that gets me down and makes it hard to keep working. Sometimes it feels as if I’m on the downhill slide of my career, and there’s nothing I can do to turn things around. Sometimes I toy with the idea of quitting writing. I’ve always thought about quitting. I’m prone to depression and, as an imaginative person, I’m prone to drama. I may not evince this in my everyday life, but it’s true. I’m as much a drama queen inside as any other creative person. And the reason I feel all these things is because I listen too much to what the world tells me a successful writer should be. I think of my writing accomplishments as achievements to slap in a bio or bibliography, quickly forgotten as I rush toward the next project or goal I want to achieve. I forget to enjoy the results of my efforts, to savor the experiences, to have fun, to feel joy. If I’m not first writing for myself, writing to spend my life in a way that feels fulfilling to me, if I don’t remember to appreciate these things, that’s when I most feel like a failure. My writing is supposed to sustain me, but if it was water, I’d get regular deliveries of it, throw the jugs in the basement, and never drink a drop of it. I’d be too focused on obtaining more water without taking the time to appreciate the water I’ve already got.
In his wonderful speech “Make Good Art,” Neil Gaiman shares a story about a time when he was doing a signing alongside Stephen King. It was during the height of Sandman’s success, and Neil had a ton of people show up to get their comics signed. Steve told him, “This is really great. You should enjoy it.” But Neil didn’t. He was too focused on the next project, the next hill to climb. He calls Steve’s words “the best advice I ever got but completely failed to follow.”…
(6) VARLEY MEDICAL UPDATE. [Item by Trey Palmer.] Just learned that John Varley, author of Steel Beach, The Golden Globe, Millennium, the Gaea trilogy and many others, is headed into bypass surgery Monday. ”Sending Prayers to the Cosmos”.
If you can, spare him a little positive thought or prayer.
Last week John began having chest pains. Then we got snowed in for a few days. So it wasn’t until last Thursday that he saw a cardiologist for a stress test. Blockages! The doctor told him to go to the emergency room immediately. They scheduled him for an angiogram next day hoping that a stent would fix the problem. It didn’t, so now he’s going to have coronary bypass surgery Monday morning. Any good thoughts, prayers, strong visualizations that you can send his way would be greatly appreciated.
(7) MEDIA BIRTHDAY.
- February 21, 1958 — On this day in 1958, Day The World Ended premiered in West Germany. It was produced and directed by Roger Corman. It starred Richard Denning, Lori Nelson, Adele Jergens, and Mike Connors. This was the first SF film by Corman. The film was shot over 10 days on a budget of $96,234.49. Critics at the time considered it silly and fun. Audience reviewers at Rotten Tomatoes give it a 42% rating. You can watch it here. (CE)
(8) TODAY’S BIRTHDAYS.
[Compiled by Cat Eldridge and John Hertz.]
- Born February 21, 1912 – P. Schuyler Miller. A novel (with Sprague de Camp), fifty shorter stories (“As Never Was” anthologized in the great Healy-McComas Adventures in Time and Space); fine book reviewer for Astounding and thus Analog, Special Committee Award from Discon I the 21st Worldcon. Treasurer of Pittcon the 18th. “Alicia in Blunderland” spoofing 1930s SF fans, pros, tales, appeared in the fanzine Science Fiction Digest; PSM was in FAPA. Amateur archeologist. Notable collector, left 3500 hardbacks, 4600 paper. His reviews await collection. (Died 1974) [JH]
- Born February 21, 1913 – Ross Rocklynne. Two novels, a hundred shorter stories; attended Nycon I the 1st Worldcon; considered a figure of the 1930s-1950s, but he’s in Again, Dangerous Visions, Carr’s Universe 3 anthology, Amazing and Fantastic under White. Co-founder of the Nat’l Fantasy Fan Fed’n and the Cincinnati Fantasy Group. (Died 1988) [JH]
- Born February 21, 1933 – Virginia Driving Hawk Sneve, age 88. Member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, she married a Norwegian and wrote The Trickster and the Troll about Iktomi and a nisse looking for the nisse’s family in the plains. “When Thunders Spoke” too is ours. A score of books. Spirit of Crazy Horse Award, Nat’l Humanities Medal. Historiographer of the Episcopal Church of South Dakota. More here. [JH]
- Born February 21, 1935 — Richard A. Lupoff. His career started off with Xero, a Hugo winning fanzine he edited with his wife Pat and Bhob Stewart. A veritable who’s who of writers were published there. He also was a reviewer for Algol. To say he was prolific as a professional writer is an understatement as he’s known to have written at least fifty works of fiction, plus short fiction, and some non-fiction as well. I’m fond of Sacred Locomotive Files and The Universal Holmes but your tolerance for his humor may vary. The usual digital suspects stock him deeply at quite reasonable prices. (Died 2020.) (CE)
- Born February 21, 1937 — Ingrid Pitt. Performer from Poland who emigrated to the UK who is best known as Hammer Films’ most sexy female vampire of the early Seventies. Would I kid you? Her first genre roles were in the Spanish movie Sound of Horror and the science-fictional The Omegans, followed by the Hammer productions The Vampire Lovers, Countess Dracula, and The House That Dripped Blood. She appeared in the true version of The Wicker Man and had parts in Octopussy, Clive Barker’s Underworld, Dominator, and Minotaur. She had two different roles twenty years apart in Doctor Who – somewhat of a rarity – as Dr. Solow in the “Warriors of the Deep” episode and as Galleia in “The Time Monster” episode. (Died 2010.) (CE)
- Born February 21, 1953 — Lisa Goldstein, 68. Writer, Fan, and Filer whose debut novel, The Red Magician, was so strong that she was a finalist for the Astounding Award for Best New Writer two years in a row. Her short fiction has garnered an array of Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Award nominations, as well as a Sidewise Award. The short story “Cassandra’s Photographs” was a Hugo and Nebula finalist and “Alfred” was a World Fantasy and Nebula finalist; both can be found in her collection Travellers in Magic. The quite excellent Uncertain Places won a Mythopoeic Award. You can read about her work in progress, her reviews of others’ stories, and other thoughts at her blog which is one of the better ones I’ve read. (CE)
- Born February 21, 1959 – Debi Gliori, Litt.D., age 62. A dozen novels, six dozen picture books. Red House Children’s Book Award. Doctorate of Letters from Strathclyde Univ. Here is an interior from The Trouble with Dragons. Here is What’s the Time, Mr. Wolf? Here is Polar Bolero – you knew I’d get a dance in somehow. [JH]
- Born February 21, 1961 – David Levine, age 60. First-rate fanziner with his wife the first-rate Kate Yule while she was alive; she saw him blossom also as a pro: “Tk’tk’tk” won a Hugo, DL’s acceptance was epic. By then he had won the James White, a few years later the Endeavour; later Arabella of Mars won the Andre Norton. Two weeks at a simulated Mars base in the Utah desert. Two more novels about Arabella; five dozen shorter stories; tried his hand at defining science fiction last March in Asimov’s. More of David (and Kate) here. [JH]
- Born February 21, 1974 – Gideon Marcus, age 47. A novel, a short story, introduction to SF by Women 1958-1963. There are – I can’t say I know, but there must be – many journeys in this galaxy; GM founded (as he puts it) one of them, and won a Serling Award. Duty calls me to observe that his museum reviews the KLH 20 but not the wonderful KLH 11, the Antiochian’s Friend – I had one, I think we all did. [JH]
- Born February 21, 1977 — Owen King. 44. There are not quite legions of Kings though sometimes it seems like it. Owen, son of Stephen and Tabitha, is early in his writing career. His first novel, Double Feature, was not genre and got mixed reviews. His second, Sleeping Beauties, written with his father is genre and got much better reviews. I’m rather fond of his short story collection, We’re All in This Together, but then I like his fathers short stories much better than I like his novels too. He has also got a graphic novel, Intro to Alien Invasion, but I’ve not seen it anywhere yet. (CE)
(9) VINTAGE 1953. [Item by Martin Morse Wooster.] Isaac Asimov, in his autobiography In Memory Yet Green, discusses a radio interview he gave during the 1953 Worldcon in Philadelphia. (John D. Clark was an author and fan active in the 1940s and 1950s.)
Sprague (de Camp), John Clark, and I went out to a local radio station where a local talk-show host interviewed us. We were made to order for him, because he thought it was the funniest thing in the world that science-fiction people were having a convention. (‘What do you people do? Wear beanies?’)
Sprague answered very patiently, because he is the soul of dignity and forbearance, but I chafed a bit. Finally, when it was my turn again, the host said to me, “Say, I have a question for you: Suppose you’re on Pluto and wearing those funny space helmets. How do you kiss?’
‘You don’t,’ I said, glowering at him. ‘You carry on a Plutonic love affair.’
The studio audience broke up and it was the host’s turn to glower. Apparently guests are not supposed to take the play away from the host. He didn’t speak to me again.
[Thanks to Cat Eldridge, John King Tarpinian, Mike Kennedy, JJ, Trey Palmer, Michael Toman, Andrew Porter, Martin Morse Wooster, and John Hertz for some of these stories. Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editor of the day Bill Higgins.]
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As someone who took a chicken to the vet a couple of weeks ago, I don’t think the exact classification of the weapon is especially relevant.
NickPheas says As someone who took a chicken to the vet a couple of weeks ago, I don’t think the exact classification of the weapon is especially relevant.
Chortle. I’m not sure why bill is so anally obsessed with proving that troops with machine guns have guarded the Capitol (which none of the photos prove as the weapons themselves could have been modified as to have been disabled from full auto). It’s not something that’s used generally in crowd control situations.
And I don’t know why you say ludicrous things like the Capitol has never been guarded with machine guns.
Or that leftists never invade capitols — see Black Panthers at the California state capitol, 1967; Weather Underground at the U.S. Capitol, 1971.
You found us out Bill. We have been gaslighting you all along and should PAY.
‘Leftists like us’ are really traitors to America and we should all be sent to Gitmo and President Trump, He Who From All Blessings Flow, should be made President for Life, and everyone who opposed him “go through some things”. Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen should alternate winning the Hugo every year.
File 770 should be turned over to the Mad Genius Club
Happy?
So avowed communists work to undermine the US government, get hauled before the HUAC, lose out on gainful employment by businesses electing not to associate with such unsavory elements, and that’s wrong.
But when an editor maintains server space for a forum that features a small percentage of users – but not the editor – saying unsavory things, and a non-profit elects to not associate with the editor (essentially guilt by association), and that’s business as normal.
Free speech is not just a legal principle. It is a cultural attitude. The legal principle follows the cultural attitude; not the other way around.
Most of the real progress that has been made in America has been the result of an ever-expanding concept of individual liberty; including free speech. Always responding with the maximum consequences for the slightest of perceived infractions isn’t a good way of fostering a culture of free speech.
Now playing The End by The Doors.
Regards,
Dann
“Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible. I think it’s in my basement… let me go upstairs and check.” – M. C. Escher
Dann665:
Tell you what! If these avowed communists are ever selected as Guests of Honour at a Worldcon, I promise to work with you to get them uninvited as soon as they start to host calls for massmurder of US population.
Win-win!
@Hampus
Is that offer good for all communists or just those that went before the HUAC or were otherwise impacted by the Red Scare? ‘Cause if it’s all communists then win-win-win!
Regards,
Dann
So the US was really at risk to be undermined by a Communist conspiracy consisting (among others) of Dale Arden from Flash Gordon, Dr. Zira from Planet of the Apes and Mr. Hooper from Sesame Street in the 1950s? Okay.
Though I can assure you that none of them will ever be Worldcon GoH, since all three are dead.
@Dann665–
Well, there’s the small, inconvenient fact that many of them were never “avowed communists,” quite a few who had been hadn’t been for years and were pursuing their lawful lives, and none of them were engaged in attempting or advocating the violent overthrow of the US government.
Oh, and one of those “avowed communists,” according to Joe McCarthy, was one Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Toni Weisskopf has only been denied a Worldcon GoH slot. No one is trying to get her fired from Baen, get Baen shut down, prevent the sale of Baen books, or in any other way deprive her of the ability to earn her living in her accustomed field of work.
Unlike the 1950s HUAC hearings, Sen. McCarthy’s famous (blank sheets) “lists” of “known communists,” and the blacklisting, which attempted to make people completely unemployable.
Dann665:
If you want, I can offer it against all anti-communists as their slaughter, massmurder and planned starvations far surpass those of the communists by now.
Otherwise, I’ll limit it to all who think it is acceptable to host calls for murder of the US population. If I included all who are happy with murdering civilians in other countries too, not one Republican could ever be a GoH. And lots of Democrats would be out as well.
Now, while Dann665 here is arguing that Worldcon should dig up the corpses of some dead communists to invite as Guests of Honour, I personally find that a bad idea. But each to his own.
bill exclaims Or that leftists never invade capitols — see Black Panthers at the California state capitol, 1967; Weather Underground at the U.S. Capitol, 1971.
Unlike the Capitol Insurrectionists who were illegally in possession of arms, the Panthers were legally possessing their weaponry which why they never got charged with any crimes. (It helps to read the article.)
The Weatherman were terrorists to the bone but they didn’t invade the Capitol — they planted a bomb there which is significantly different. To my knowledge, the Weather Underground bombings never resulted in a single death.
And the Capitol Insurrectionists has dozens of pipe bombs that security forces found before they exploded. If they hadn’t, the death toll could have been much, much higher.
No one is infringing Baen’s right to free speech. DisCon III is exercising its freedom of association because Baen hasn’t done anything to deal with threats of violence and terrorism on its site. Baen is still free to allow whatever speech it chooses on its server.
It isn’t guilt by association to hold Toni Weisskopf responsible for her own actions running Baen (or in this case inaction). She made a choice and so did DisCon. Freedom on both sides.
Concerns over the content of Baen’s Bar are not new. Weisskopf wasn’t learning any of this for the first time when reading Jason Sanford’s report.
Here’s a 17-page thread on Sufficient Velocity from 2014 in which offensive comments on Baen’s Bar were called out (focusing on one Baen author’s forum in particular).
One of the posts cited is by that author two days after Anders Breivik killed 76 people in Norway. He writes, “Had an awful thought a few minutes ago: Did this guy read English? Will they find a copy of Caliphate among his books?”
When even one of your own authors is afraid his work might be favored by violent extremists, maybe Baen could have recognized the threat of the Bar becoming a haven for extremism and taken out the banhammer more often.
Lets not invite the Weatherman terrorists as Guests of Honour to Worldcon (even if bill and Dann665 might disagree).
Skimming the list of Worldcon GOHs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Worldcon_Guests_of_Honor I see a few names of people who went to Communist meetings from time to time, but no one that I’m sure was an active member of the Communist party (and I don’t want to make a mistake); one multiple GOH ran for office as part of an explicitly socialist campaign, but that doesn’t quite count. One (now-deceased) famous SF author reported that he had been a Communist party member for some time, but he was never a GOH (and was not a member of the party for long).
But Communism is a red herring (see – I’ve had a Clue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clue_(film) )
@Hampus
Data collected by Professor RJ Rummel, formerly of the University of Hawaii, suggests otherwise. Specifically, the communists (left-wing socialists) of the USSR and the PRC murdered tens of millions of innocent civilians. If you add in the lesser communist states (Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.) you get close to 100 million innocent civilians.
The anti-communists were pikers by comparison when it comes to raw numbers. Although the right-wing socialism of Adolph Hitler came close on a per-capita basis.
Regards,
Dann
To silence criticism is to silence freedom. – Sidney Hook
Now, while Dann665 here is arguing that Worldcon should dig up the corpses of some dead communists to invite as Guests of Honour, I personally find that a bad idea. But each to his own.
Okay, I nominate Frederik Pohl and Stanislaw Lem.
I’ve already had two free speech arguments this week and I have absolutely zero interest in engaging in a third.
But I’m going to register my extreme disapproval of that little bit of rhetorical sleight of hand which not only decided all victims of the Red Scare were communists, but that all the victims and all American communists work(ed) to undermine the government in ways equivalent to the literal and violent invasion of one of the centres of power and the fantasised mass murder of lawful citizens over their perceived politics rather than engage(d) in lawful and protected ~free goddamn speech~ and activism. And making out like actual government suppression is totally the same thing as not getting a prized-within-the-field (and barely known outside of it) honour that few ever get close to.
Dann, mostly you keep yourself to, if arguments I disagree with, at least reasonable ones. This ain’t it. Go back to the drawing board and try again. Trying to draw a parallel with that historical horror weakens your stance, not strengthens it, because it emphasises how little Toni Weisskopf has faced in terms of consequences. It makes being upset about it look completely absurd.
I don’t know why people are perseverating over gun types, it’s utterly immaterial to tavella’s very valid point that “if it had been even vaguely left actors doing the same stuff, they’d have been [gunned down] on the Capitol steps, none of this giving them directions to legislator’s offices and holding their hand to help them down the steps when leaving.”
But maybe the purpose of the perseverating is to derail discussion of that very valid point.
@cat, the Weather Underground blew up three of themselves while building nail bombs intended to be placed at a Fort Dix dance, and at Columbia University’s Butler Library.
Madame Hardy says that the Weather Underground blew up three of themselves while building nail bombs intended to be placed at a Fort Dix dance, and at Columbia University’s Butler Library.
Good. A dead terrorist is always a good thing. But they didn’t kill anyone else in the process of doing so. So my claim still stands,
I suppose I should not be surprised that someone in this conversation (@Dan665) needs reminding that McCarthyism is generally considered a bad thing. I mean, there are elected officials in U.S. Republican party who seem to have forgotten that Naziism is a bad thing. Still, it’s really wearying to see someone trying to make Red Scare: The Sequel a thing.
Oh, and Nazi socialism is a nonsense that’s been thoroughly debunked a hundred times over. It even has a Snopes article. I’ve given it more attention than the claim deserves, but hopefully this correction can be the end of it.
Dann665:
Rummel is hardly someone to take seriously, as his way of calculating deaths would make Jeltsin as bad as Stalin. Add together anti-communists as Hitler, Pinochet, Franco, Chiang Kai-Shek, Suharto, Nixon and lots more you will get brutal mass murderers easily reaching higher levels of death than the communists.
Only a person with the brain and education of a dead badger would call Hitler a socialist.
So we dig up Pohl and Lem, create some electronic forums for them (which their corpses will moderate as effectively as Toni Weisskopf), get some people from Baen’s Bar to call for murder on the forums and then Dann can make his argument that it would be right for Worldcon to make them Guests of Honour as nothing of notice has happened.
“So avowed communists work to undermine the US government, get hauled before the HUAC, lose out on gainful employment by businesses electing not to associate with such unsavory elements, and that’s wrong.”
Leaving aside the immense historical ignorance and revisionism here, I direct your attention to The Martian Way, by one I. Asimov.
Though their handling of Mercedes Lackey discussions will be an improvement.
Hampus Eckerman says So we dig up Pohl and Lem, create some electronic forums for them (which their corpses will moderate as effectively as Toni Weisskopf), get some people from Baen’s Bar to call for murder on the forums and then Dann can make his argument that it would be right for Worldcon to make them Guests of Honour as nothing of notice has happened.
So has Weisskopf actually ever moderated anything? Or has she just left that to other folk? That’s an interesting question here as it seems she’s taken a very hands off approach to Baen’s Bar.
I hasten to add that Baen’s Bar doesn’t appear to have anything that looks in the least like moderation anyways. Unless allowing gasoline to be tossed on an already fully roaring fire is moderation.
Well, as per Weisskopf herself, there IS at least some effort to reduce the boredom of SOMEONE in control of posts at the Bar:
So THAT’S moderation of a sort. Presumably chattering extensively about detailed plans to murder mass urban populations is not at all boring to SOMEONE in charge over there.
I think some subforums were attentively moderated and others were allowed to let commenters say anything.
I’ve been looking for any sign that Baen’s Bar subforums are looking for new homes or operating out of temporary ones. The only one trying to keep discussion going somewhere has been the 1632 project-related subforums (which I’ve offered to help).
I find it odd that no others are doing that (in any way I could find). Maybe they’re getting reassurances the Bar will be back soon.
@Hampus
It’s already happened twice — Fred Pohl and Donald Wollheim.
@Lis Carey
This is a myth. All ten of the “Hollywood Ten” were members of the CPUSA. Most of the 151 people on the Red Channels blacklist were CPUSA members. And when Comintern and Venona files were released, it became clear that the State Department was in fact infiltrated with communists.
That Joe McCarthy was a demagogue doesn’t change the fact that the CPUSA was Soviet-directed, and that membership required one (on pain of expulsion) to subordinate any other values they might have had to serving the Party.
Sacramento Bee, May 3 1967
“The police arrested 24 persons and seized 11 shotguns, rifles and pistols in rounding up the bay area Black Panthers who charged into the State Assembly chamber carrying weapons yesterday afternoon. Reginald W. Forte, 18, of Oakland, was charged with conspiracy to commit a crime and assault with a dangerous weapon upon a police officer. . . All the others were charged with conspiracy. They are [list of names].”
. . . except for the three of them that blew themselves up in Greenwich Village in 1970. And possibly the SF Police bombing of Feb 1970. And WU members did kill Peter Paige with guns. The fact that the numerous bombs intentionally exploded did not kill anyone is of small comfort, I suppose, to those who were injured, or the first responders who were endangered cleaning up the bomb sites and bomb factories, or the people who had to pay for the damage their bombs made.
In two successive paragraphs you speak of the pipe bombs of Jan 6, and claim that Weather Underground was “different” because they used bombs. Cognitive dissonance . . .
@Hampus
Oh, I’m on board with that. And Bill Ayers should still be anathema, instead of darling of the progressive movement.
@JJ
Except that when pro-labor groups occupied the Wisconsin state house in 2011, they weren’t gunned down (although many legislators received death threats during the occupation).
Except when BLM/Antifa protestors tried to burn down the federal courthouse in Portland, and burn down the Metro Nashville Courthouse, they weren’t gunned down.
Except when protesters occupied Senate office buildings during the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, they weren’t gunned down.
Except when protesters occupied a region of Seattle including a police building, and then shot people in that zone, they weren’t gunned down.
Protesters getting “gunned down” happens so seldom in the United States that it’s a non-issue. There’s Kent State, and not much else. It’s stupid to say that right wing protesters are privileged over leftists with respect to the issue.
@Hampus
You don’t math very well, do you?
Of your list, we can ignore Pinochet, Franco, Suharto, Nixon — a few hundred thousand (and that’s with very liberal estimates). Hitler: even though you think Rummel’s estimates are too high, we’ll use his figure of 19.3 million democide deaths. Chiang Kai Shek: Rummel’s highest estimate is 18.5 m, so the anti-communist total is 37.8
Every realistic figure for Communism starts well above that — 40-50 million and up. You can make a plausible case that Stalin and Mao killed 40 million each via famine and other methods.
bill: Protesters getting “gunned down” happens so seldom in the United States that it’s a non-issue. There’s Kent State, and not much else. It’s stupid to say that right wing protesters are privileged over leftists with respect to the issue.
Are you trying to tell me that if BLM protesters had rushed these Capitol steps the way the insurrectionists did, those weapons would not have been used?
Yeah, not buying it. Not for a moment.
bill:
AFAIK, Fred Pohl and Donald Wollheim did not host forums calling for massmurders or US citizens. But if they do get chosen as GoH:s again and do host such forums that they refuse to moderate, I will happily campaign to get them uninvited.
Your link does not support such a claim. I can’t even see a progressive mentioned in the article. Not sure there’s even a progressive mentioned in the article. Obama and Clinton certainly aren’t progressives. As an example, Clinton was a dear friend with racist war criminal Henry Kissinger.
It might seem so for someone with no understanding of math, but I can’t see any reason to take them seriously. I mean, if you call the genocide in South-East asia with the mass murder of over three million vietnamese (not to add the bombing campaigns against Laos and Cambodia) “a few hundred thousand”, then you didn’t learn any maths at all.
As we have already concluded, Rummel has already made himself a laughing stock in history circles, so we can safely ignore everything he says. Unless you really think Jeltsin was worse than Stalin.