The Hammer of Tor 6/19

aka Sad Puppies Strictly Cash

Peter Grant, Vox Day, John Wright, Chris Meadows, Adam, Steve Davidson, Natalie Luhrs, Alexandra Erin, Nick Mamatas, Lela E. Buis, Lawrence Person, Soon Lee, Lis Carey, Melina D, Joe Sherry, and May Tree. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day William Reichard and Rev. Bob.)

Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man

”The Tor boycott is on” – June 19

Regrettably, due to the apparent lack of action by (and the deafening silence from) Tor and Macmillan, the time has come to do as I promised.  I therefore ask all those who believe, as I do, that the recent statement by Irene Gallo, and the pattern of behavior and statements from others at Tor whom I’ve previously named, are completely unacceptable, to join me in refusing to buy any of Tor’s products from now on. I support and endorse what Larry Correia said about this yesterday.

… this is between Tor and its readers who feel insulted, not the Sad Puppies campaign or the people who ran it … To the Sad Puppies supporters, do what you think is right. All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements. Stick with the facts.

There’s much more at the link.  (Recommended reading for background and more information.)

I am not a member of, and I do not speak for, either the ‘Sad Puppies’ or ‘Rabid Puppies’ campaigns (although I support the former).  I don’t represent cute puppies, playful puppies, cuddly puppies or hush puppies – only myself.  If you share, in whole or in part, my values and outlook on life, I invite you to join me in this boycott.  Don’t do so just because I, or anyone else, is asking you to do so.  Act on the basis of your own informed conscience and reasoned judgment.

There are those who protest that a boycott of Tor will prevent them buying books they want to read, and/or hurt their favorite authors.  I can only point out that used copies of those books are usually available from many sources soon after publication, often in very good to excellent condition, and sometimes at prices much lower than a new copy.  As for your favorite authors, if you buy a used copy of their book(s), why not send them the money they would have made as a royalty if you’d bought it new?  In fact, given that many royalties are a pittance, why not send them more than that?  Many authors have so-called ‘tip jars’ on their blogs or Web sites, or you can write to them enclosing a check or money order.

There are those who doubt that a boycott can achieve anything.  I can only reply that ‘doing the right thing’ is important in itself.  It’s a matter of honor – and although any mention of honor may be greeted with scorn and derision in these ‘modern’ times, I was raised to value the concept and live by it.  I still do.  I doubt I’m alone in that.

What’s more, in a SF/F market that’s increasingly dominated by independent authors, with cratering sales among mainstream publishers and tight financial margins, even a small boycott may have an impact out of all proportion to its size.  I’m certain, on the basis of support already voiced, that we can achieve a short-term six-figure reduction in Tor’s annual turnover.  All that’ll take is a couple of thousand people not spending their usual $50 per year on Tor books (and many have, until now, spent a lot more than that – for example, see here).  With more supporters and/or bigger spenders involved, the impact will be correspondingly greater.  I believe that over time, as word spreads and more join the boycott, we can grow this into a seven-figure annual impact – particularly when, in markets where we have a strong presence, we start talking to bookstores that carry Tor products.  Given current economic conditions and the present and predicted state of the SF/F market, our boycott may in due course make the difference between a profit and a loss in Tor’s annual trading accounts.


Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Tor boycott announced” – June 19

As you can see, I have been a Tor Books customer since 1986, when I bought a mass market paperback copy of The Edge of Tomorrow, by Isaac Asimov. And because I have considerably more experience of Tor Books and the consistently abusive and unprofessional behavior of its senior employees, I will go a little further than Mr. Grant has. Until Irene Gallo and Patrick Nielsen Hayden are no longer employed by Tor Books or, I will not:

  1. Purchase any books published by Tor Books
  2. Read any books published by Tor Books

Given (2), this means that if Ms. Gallo and Mr. Nielsen Hayden are still employed by Tor Books in 2016, I will not nominate any books published by Tor Books for any awards. I encourage those who deem Ms. Gallo’s behavior to be unprofessional and unacceptable to follow Mr. Grant’s lead and join the Tor Books boycott. I am the leader of the Rabid Puppies, I do speak for them, and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they will follow my lead in this regard. I am not concerned about whether the boycott is “successful” or not. The simple fact is that if Macmillan is at all interested in the long-term success of Tor Books, it will jettison both Ms Gallo and Mr. Nielsen Hayden on the basis of their disloyalty, their unprofessional behavior, and their repeated violations of the Macmillan Code of Conduct, regardless of what any outside parties may happen to believe. I simply won’t have anything to do with Tor Books as long as those two individuals are employed there.


John C. Wright

“Embargo On” – June 19

Since I am Tor author and hitherto have been very proud of my association with that fine and famous imprint, I am fascinated (if mildly aghast) that the Tor management has allowed the situation to degenerate to this point.

Because of a financial conflict of interest on my part, it would be untoward of me to express fulsome support and applause for the boycott, and tell the boycotters their position is the principled and correct stand.

Nor will I point out, because it is obvious, that if you buy my books from Tor, then some part of your precious book-buying dollars goes into the wages of several people at Tor (but by no means all, or even most) who hate both you and me with a sick and soul-destroying hatred, a hatred like a disease that withers the heart and rots the brain.

Nor will I point out, because it should also be obvious, that any Christian gentleman would be willing to forgo a worldly reward of your generous book-buying dollars if he may have your spiritual reward of your loyalty instead. If the gentle reader feels compassion for me in my hour of need, or fears the boycott will harm my finances, I have a tip jar on this page.

So I cannot express support for this boycott.

The people with whom I work, my editor and cover art director, have a perfect right to expect me not to undermine their position, untenable as it may be. If the management wants to set the company policy as one of indifference to our patrons and clients on whom our livelihood depends, or contempt, or enmity, or loathing, that business decision is in their bailiwick.


Chris Meadows on Teleread

“Sad Puppies supporters, opponents respectively call for boycott, buying of Tor books”   – June 19

However, even leaving aside that Vox Day certainly does speak for the Rabid Puppies, what Correia and Grant miss is that, as a grass-roots movement (I was going to say “ostensibly grass-roots,” but what the heck, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt), “Sad Puppies” doesn’t really have a true “leadership” to speak for it at this point. Whether you’re an official “member” or not, if you identify with the movement, you’re going to be identified with the movement, especially by the movement’s opponents.

Make a lot of noise in support of Sad Puppy goals, and voila, you’re a Sad Puppy, and anything you do reflects on them. And likewise, anything the rest of them do reflects on you—which is why the Puppies movement as a whole is, rightly or wrongly, often tarred with the black brush that most accurately applies only to Vox Day and others like him. (Indeed, it’s why a lot of people use “Sad Puppies” as a shorthand to refer to both the Sad and Rabid Puppies.) And it’s why anti-Puppies (some have suggested the term “Happy Kittens”) feel justified in calling this a “Sad Puppies” boycott.


Adam on The Noisy Rogue

“The Boycott of Tor Books” – June 19

Even John C Wright, one of Tor’s own published writers, is unable to express support for Tor in this situation. Make your own minds up, dear readers. But rest assured that the culture wars have not been lost. They were only originally winning in the first place because our side couldn’t be bothered turning up. Now it’s on.


Steve Davidson on Amazing Stories

“Today is Buy From Tor Day” – June 19

Just a reminder that if you would like to express support for Irene Gallo, Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Moshe Feder and TOR books, today is the day to go out and buy a TOR book.

You can learn a bit more about this here.


Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man

“Moshe Feder doubles down (again) on the lies” – June 19

Friends, I give you Moshe Feder on Facebook earlier today:

Feder 2015-06-19 Facebook screen capture

….I’m still not going to call for the resignation or dismissal of any of the Tor employees I’ve named.  Nevertheless, if I needed any more justification for why I’m boycotting Tor, Mr. Feder has provided it.  I suppose I should thank him for that – and if he wishes to call me an ‘idiot’, well, I’ve been called a lot worse than that in my time.  Furthermore, for all Mr. Feder’s vitriol directed against him, he’s just made Vox Day look like a sensible, reasonable participant in this debate.  Vox might want to thank him, too . . .





Lela E. Buis

“Adding fuel to the flames” – June 19

What ever happened to that discussion about the Hugos?

What Hugos?

By this time, it should be fairly clear that the current debacle has nothing to do with the Hugo Awards. It isn’t really about the liberal versus conservative content of a few Tor books, either. I concede that there may be an ideological component to the attack. If Day is a a “fundamentalist Southern Baptist,” as he has been characterized, then it is likely that he’s offended by liberal viewpoints in general. Still, that’s no reason to go after Tor in particular. Publication of LGBTQ novels, for example, has been increasing across all major publishers in the last few years. Tor has no franchise on liberalism.

That makes it more likely that Day has launched a personal vendetta undercover of the conflict over the Hugo Awards. He has moved from naming Irene Gallo to Moshe Feder to Patrick Nielsen Hayden in the last few days. Most likely this is his actual target. Hayden is the man quoted in news reports announcing John Scalzi’s recent $3.4 million contract with Tor.

It’s a vendetta, folks. Day is pursuing a long-running feud with John Scalzi. That means that anyone who supports Day’s flame war by responding to him is only perpetuating the problem. Tor has got it right. It’s time to hunker down and wait him out.


Lawrence Person on Battleswarm Blog

“Sad Puppies Redux (Or Why That Tor Boycott Won’t Work)” – June 19

Since then, a few people on Twitter have been calling for a boycott of Tor Books over the incident. About this I would just like to make a few points:

  • Though the editorial stuff does lean toward the SJW side, plenty of conservative authors are published by Tor.
  • An ad hoc, Twitter-organized boycott is deeply unlikely to work. Given the way book sales are tracked, it’s unlikely the financial effects of any boycott would stand out from sales figures more than background noise. Most SF readers probably aren’t even active on Twitter, and even fewer have been following every twist and turn of the Sad Puppy Saga.
  • Given that Tor is a very small part of the Bertelsmann international conglomerate, chances are even less likely that that any boycott would be effective or even noticed.
  • Larry Correia has categorically stated that the Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts. He also notes, as he invariably does, “All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements.”

So put me down in the category of thinking a boycott is foolish, pointless and counterproductive.

One big point on the Sad Puppies campaign: Most recent domestic Worldcons have topped out in the 4,000-6,000 members range. I recently bought a Supporting Membership in Sasquan, and my membership number was in the 9,000s. This tends to indicate that the Hugos have indeed become a test of strength in the culture wars.




Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library

“Sucker Punch, by Eric S. Raymond” – June 19

Eric S. Raymond is a 2015 nominee for the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer. This is a perfectly competently written MilSF…vignette. It’s not a story. It describes a couple of important and unfortunate advances in military weapons and tactics, and presents the resulting dilemma quite poignantly.


Joe Sherry on Adventures In Reading

“Thoughts on the Hugo Award Nominees: Novella” – June 19

….The big surprise in this category, at least for me, was Tom Kratman’s Big Boys Don’t Cry. I had expected a very aggressive narrative designed to offend those of a more liberal persuasion, but what I got was a surprisingly graceful story of a dying sentient tank. That may sound weird, but given advancement in artificial intelligence and this being a science fiction story, it works. It works remarkably well, especially the deeper Kratman brings the story into Magnolia’s history.  Yes, there are also some clumsier jabs at how military tactics have been handled by those not committed to the mission or by those who don’t fully understand what it takes to win, and politicians get the sharp end of the stick in that regard (rightly so, in some cases).

If all of Arlan Andrews’ “Flow” was as successful as the second half of the story, I might have been able to move it up another space on my ballot, but unfortunately the beginning of the story was something of a chore to push through. The primitive ice world (a partially frozen post apocalyptic Earth) was tough to take, less because of the writing and more because of what I was wanted / was getting from the story. I’ll willingly take the hit that part of this is on me, but I often bounce off of fiction dealing with significantly more primitive Earth cultures unless the writing / storytelling can just grab a hold of me and make me care about the characters and / or the setting. “Flow” didn’t…until it did, midway through as Rist began to discover more of the world and realized that what his people taught may not be the way things actually work. I’m now curious to find “Thaw”, a previous story in this setting, and move on to “Fall”, the next in the setting.  I’d like to see where Andrews is taking this.

My Vote

1. “Pale Realms of Shade”
2. Big Boys Don’t Cry
3. “Flow”
4. “The Plural of Helen of Troy”
5. No Award
6. One Bright Star to Guide Them


Melina D on Subversive Reader

“Hugos 2015 Reading: Short Story” – June 19

Without too much further procrastination, it’s onto the stories. This was another full puppy-supported slate, so – to put it mildly – my expectations of good writing were low. I was pleasantly surprised by one story, meh over a couple of others and (predictably) was ready to set a thousand fires to another.


May Tree in a comment on File 770 – June 18

(The original is here if you don’t know it.) The original inspiration for looking at this source material was that “Voxie” rhymes with “Roxie.”

[Excerpt is only one-third of the whole parody.]

[PUPS] Hah! They had it coming! They had it coming! They took a genre in its prime And then they used it And they abused it We’ll slate the Hugos – It’s not a crime!

[SARAH] Now, I’m typing on my blog post, carvin’ up the SJWs for the Puppies, minding my own business, in storms Mike Glyer, in a jealous rage. “You’re a hydrophobe!” he says. He was crazy and he kept posting, “You’re a hydrophobe!” And then he ran into my axiom. He ran into my axiom ten times!

[PUPS] If you’d have been there If you’d have read it I betcha you would have thought the same!

[JULIETTE] Oenq, V nz fbeel, ohg vs lbh jvyy or ynoryvat zr nf n fnq chccl V jvyy unir gb nfx lbh gb jvguqenj zr sebz lbhe yvfg. Lbh qvq abg fnl lbh jrer tbvat gb or pnyyvat vg gur Fnq Chccvrf yvfg. V srry yvxr lbh jrer zvfercerfragvat vg. V’z unccl gb or bar bs lbhe Uhtb erpbzzraqngvbaf. Guvf vf qvssrerag.

[BRAD] Yeah, but will you be on my slate?

[JULIETTE] UH UH, not Puppy!

[LARRY] My buddy Brad and I had this Sad Puppy act, and my “devil” Voxie traveled around with us. Now, for the most recent year in our slate, we nommed 20 of Brad’s buddies in a row. One, two, three, four, five…Kratman, Freer, Antonelli, Reid, one right after the other. Well, this one night we were ranting about liberals, the three of us, boozing and having a few laughs, and we run out of ice. So I go out to get some. I come back, open the door, and there’s Brad and Voxie nomming Number Seventeen – “Wisdom From My Internet.” Well, I was in such a state of shock, I completely blacked out. I can’t remember a thing. It wasn’t until later, when I was washing the toner off my hands, I even knew they were Rabid.

[PUPS] They had it coming! They had it coming! Ann Leckie does her genders wrong! I didn’t read her! But if I read her I wouldn’t know which “she” has a schlong!


743 thoughts on “The Hammer of Tor 6/19

  1. @cally

    “If you didn’t want to support the other work on your nominating ballot, why did you nominate it? The act of putting a work on a nominating ballot is perfectly reasonable evidence that you wish to support that work.”

    True, it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption, but there’s a part of me that would rather just be sure to err on the side of absolute precision when it comes to knowing what the intent of a voter is.

  2. @Alas, Stevie, I’ll take a sleep spirit generally under advisement, but my schedule at the moment means you’d get your commission in 2018 assuming they don’t come back for more Hamster Princess books. If you haven’t slept by 2018, though, you should probably talk to a doctor.

    The person I know who is into gin and tonics is my stepfather, so if I follow the outrage train, this work is highly bigoted against septuagenarian Native American art professors. I am deeply offended, naturally, and shall point it out to him at the first opportunity, so that he can stare at me and go “What the hell are you on, man?”

  3. … But that doesn’t change that there are no clear and unambiguous markers of anything except that the perpetrators are male. No facts, no dog whistles, no prejudice.

  4. “I wouldn’t have put it so bluntly Ann, but yes.”

    That’s okay, you can be good cop 🙂

    Meredith, if you’re talking to me, please address me. Your comment doesn’t even make sense. At no point has anyone said ‘all working class people bash gays’ or anything of the sort. If you think Hoyt has a point, (a) say why and (b) see my comment about people who follow her lead.

  5. “this work is highly bigoted against septuagenarian Native American art professors.”

    I have no idea why the idea of your septuagenarian Native American art professor stepfather sipping his gin and tonic and glaring at you for being a nitwit made me grin, but it did 🙂

  6. Danny Sichel: EPH’s weakness is that it has to be adopted by the WSFS, two years in a row. What happens if, after we go to all the trouble of devising this complicated slate-killer algorithm… Beale chooses to not deploy the Puppies in 2016? Would anyone at the business meeting in Kansas City be willing to vote for EPH if it turned out to be unnecessary?

    I don’t think that’s much of a weakness.

    What I’ve seen is a bunch of fans saying, “Okay, we’ve established that there is a group of people willing to be that asshole; let’s fix the nomination process to prevent gaming, and then get back to geeking out over books and other SFFnal things. What? They didn’t do it again this year? Well, we know they’re willing to do it, so let’s just pass the fix for the second time, and get back to talking about the stuff we love.”

    A high percentage of SFF fans tend to consist of (as we’ve seen) analysts, gamers, mathematicians, and puzzle-solvers. In other words, they’re probably the worst type of “enemy” the Puppies could have ginned up (see what I did there) — and no doubt the reason that so many Pups are incredibly frustrated and baffled by the fact that they’re not getting the reaction they expected.

    Instead of “All right, all us SJWs are going to get together and draw up our own slate and beat those Puppies at their own game!” they got, “Oh, geeze, some assholes decided to crash the party and trash the place. We’ll clean up the mess, put a conduct policy into effect, and get back to having our party”.

    Which is why it’s so amusing every time a Puppy comments here on File770, saying, “No, no — you have to study the Puppies’ tactics and figure out how to out-Puppy them!”.

    No. No, “we” don’t.

  7. clethra: what about the short fiction? I’ve looked at picking up some anthologies but a lot of the 2015 dated ones have a bunch of 2014 stories in them. Should I just be looking at magazines? Other online sources? Should I wait until the beginning of next year and THEN start looking at short fiction?

    I recommend reading as the year goes on, so that there’s not a huge pile at the end. There’s a list of online short fiction publications here, which I’ll put in another post after this, and because of multiple links, it will be visible after Mike releases it from Moderation Jail.

  8. Meredith: Re: keeping up with short fiction, a few questions for more knowledgeable types: Which of the magazines would be best to subscribe to for someone (me) on a limited budget? How many at minimum do you think someone would need to subscribe to to get a decent overview?
    Apex Magazine
    Beneath Ceaseless Skies
    Strange Horizons
    Lightspeed Magazine
    Escape Pod
    Daily Science Fiction
    Galaxy’s Edge (disappears every 2 months to be replaced by the new issue, but a lot of previous issues are available on the Wayback Machine)

    Subterranean Online has ceased publishing, but all the old issues are here.

    And if you ever want to find out whether a short fiction work is available for free online, or locate all the works for a particular author which are available for free online Free Speculative Fiction Online is a fantastic resource.

  9. JJ at 9:32 pm:

    So what you’re saying is we don’t fight fire with fire, but with water?

    The water that falls on you from nowhere? *sorry*

    (Actually that’s a really good summary of how I see the situation too)

  10. @Ann Somerville

    I wasn’t specifically addressing you, no. I wanted to make a more general point and I rarely tag when I do that. See my follow-up for answers to your last bit.

    But to elaborate on my point, since you say I was unclear:
    None of the Italian American films say “all Italian Americans are in the mafia” and (to use the more charged example I backed away from) no shows that show young black men as criminals say “all young black men are criminals” – but that doesn’t mean they can’t be contributing to prejudice. Sometimes its more about volume than any one particular example. Which I’m pretty sure you already know, because you’re smart and you care about social justice.

    But, as I said in my follow-up, there aren’t any clear markers of any particular group within the story, so that story can’t be an example of that.

  11. I was not a fan of “Dinosaur” for a number of reasons. That I thought it especially prejudiced against working people wasn’t one of them.

    It struck me that “gin-soaked” was just a flinch, a foolish attempt to avoid the more common and borderline cliché phrase “rum-soaked.” (Google NGram tells me that the former has been the more popular turn of phrase for the past 200 years, and a normal Google search has more than twice the hits for “rum-soaked” than as for “gin-soaked.”)

    In the US, rum is historically the working class and lumpenprole spirit, thus the “rummy” who has to beg or even dance for a glass, and snooty middle-class wars against the “demon rum”, which culminated in Prohibition. (And yes, there was “bathtub gin” during Prohibition, but that was middle-class speakeasy fancy flapper drinkin’.) The less fancy rum brands—Bicardi, Captain Morgan—remain popular among working people as the party spirit. (Beer is of course much more common, but shit it takes a lot of beer to get six people riled up enough to take pool cues to some stranger.)

    The lack of demographic indicators and power relationships didn’t help my enjoyment or understanding of the story one bit. It just seemed arbitrary and thus I didn’t feel dread or anger or curiosity. As there was nothing more to know about the attack, the daydream of revenge left me cold as well.

    The Puppy insistence that it’s an example of anti-proletarian prejudice is just more of their aping supposed SJW talking points, along the line of Sarah Hoyt claiming that Portuguese people are Hispanic.

  12. Soon Lee: So what you’re saying is we don’t fight fire with fire, but with water? The water that falls on you from nowhere? *sorry*

    I was thinking more with a good party beverage; I’ve got a recipe for a really wicked fruit punch. 😉

  13. Red Wombat

    I am not happy to wait, whilst simultaneously being happy to wait.

    After all, Morpheus has been around for well over 2000 years so I doubt he’s going anywhere in a hurry; 2018 sounds good to me. In the meantime I can just shout at the wall alongside my bed where his portrait will be placed in due course.

    Though this is an opportunity to remind you of goblins, out there, cold and shivering despite wearing the war department’s new Goblin uniform; this may have something to do with the way in which the warrant officer in charge of this forgot to specify that they needed winter clothing. All I know is that if they ever lay hands on him he won’t require another uniform..

  14. “I wanted to make a more general point ”

    About something only I had raised. Right.

    “Which I’m pretty sure you already know, because you’re smart and you care about social justice.”

    Since you’re so smart, then you can perhaps explain how working class men, race unspecified, are an oppressed minority?

    By your logic, the mere expression of the existence of working class people is somehow prejudicial to them.

    One of the commenters on the apex magazine site said “This so perfectly tells the story of Reginald Denny. Thank you!”

    Denny is white. His attackers, black. Black on white violence is also a thing, and the race of the parties in the story is not specified. And yet none of the people squawking the story are concerned about it reinforcing racial stereotypes. No, they’re only worried about working class me (by implication, white working class men.)

    Which leads me to think that the rage is entirely confected. Me being so smart and all.

  15. @andyl,

    No, I didn’t know about The Grasshopper’s Child!! Thank you so very much.

    And many thanks also to the person–sorry, I don’t remember who it was–who mentioned that Gerald Durrell had written a fantasy, which I hadn’t known either. I see that since it is OOP it is now fairly expensive, but I will probably treat myself to a good used copy in the near future.

    Tor books purchased yesterday: TGE and Jo Walton, My Real Children. And the bookstore I went to turned out to be having a summer-long Fiction Friday promotion, so I got a 15% discount which was a happy surprise.

    Books currently near my feet: The Worm Ourobouros (because I got it out the other day to check on the names used for the nations) and Hokusai (catalogue of the exhibition now on at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston).

    RedWombat, did you know that there was a major exhibit of the work of Kawase Hasui in Virginia last year? There’s a lovely catalogue, called Water and Shadow. Alas, I don’t think we can make any kind of case for Hasui as relevant to SFF, although Hokusai did lots of fantasy subjects in addition to his famous landscapes.

  16. @Ann Somerville:

    Soon Lee, I just found the story and read it, along with the comments, and all I can say is the people bleating about the hatred of the working classes in this story are – putting it technically – fucked in the head.

    I’m sorry to revisit this. I tried to let it go, but reading this really upset me.

    We just had a conversation with Happy-Puppy about ableism because it was really hurtful. I’m not going to let it pass because it’s aimed at people I disagree with.

    Some people outrage easily. They will fly off the handle at the slightest hint of provocation or offense. I’ve met some of these people. They are not necessarily fucked in the head.

    (My psychiatrist told me that he couldn’t find “all fucked up” in the DSM. We had a good laugh.)

    I didn’t see class markers in “Dinosaur”, and certainly didn’t see class hatred. I saw drunk angry men. But if something strikes someone viscerally and they take offense to it because they’re upset, I’m not going to tell them their reading is wrong. And I’m certainly not going to tell them that they’re mentally ill for being hurt.

    I’m very upset and walking away from the computer now. Time to watch something brightly coloured.

    Puella Magi Madoka Magica. Anyone else love that anime?

  17. @Ann

    I’m really not interested in explaining class systems to you when I know perfectly well you already know and just like jumping down my throat.

    I’m also really not interested in defending Hoyt’s point in general, which I already pointed out I didn’t agree with.

  18. @Dawn Incognito

    I’m afraid I haven’t seen it. Is it happy? I could do with some happy.

    Thank you for addressing that, by the way. I couldn’t and it wasn’t helping and honestly tonight has ended up being a whole bunch of mental illness suck impacting on physical disability suck.

  19. My co-ordination tonight isn’t letting me highlight the text to search and autofill doesn’t know the words. 🙁 Attempt to seek happy, foiled.

  20. Had to duck back to the computer and checked the thread in a moment of weakness.


    What you want is Cardcaptor Sakura. It is delightful and makes me smile every time.

  21. @Dawn Incognito

    Well just as well I couldn’t type the text tonight! I am not in a good place for unhappy stuff.


    Thank you for the links! The little iPad text select dots are just not co-operating tonight. *blames tools* *disability what disability*

  22. Meredith,

    If you want some light fun, Ouran High School Host Club would be my pick. Either that or Azumanga Diaoh. If you want something a bit uplifting and that speaks to the inner nerd, try Princess Jellyfish.

  23. @Meredith:

    Thank you for the links! The little iPad text select dots are just not co-operating tonight. *blames tools* *disability what disability*

    Bah! I have no recognisable disability and I have trouble with iOS text selection and File770’s layout.

  24. I wasn’t going to post, “the show” has been quite entertaining (baffling yes, but entertaining nonetheless), but today I learned the SFDebris has a new show out. YAY!

    Also his PMMM series is good if very spoilery. GR has a non-spoiler review if your are wondering why it is very very very not happy, as are most modern genre deconstructions (Evengelion, I’m looking at you).

  25. “We just had a conversation with Happy-Puppy about ableism because it was really hurtful. I’m not going to let it pass because it’s aimed at people I disagree with.”

    Dawn, ‘fucked in the head’ isn’t meant to be a diagnosis. There is something wrong with them, but most likely in the moral muscles. They’re not ill. They’re just fucked up.

    And hey, mental illness sufferer here too, actually. I’m sorry to have upset you, but I deliberately didn’t say ‘crazy’ because they’re not. They’re inadequate, unfinished, badly behaved jackasses.

  26. “I’m really not interested in explaining class systems to you”

    You don’t need to. And I bet I know from working class better than you, because I come from it.

  27. JJ:

    Instead of “All right, all us SJWs are going to get together and draw up our own slate and beat those Puppies at their own game!” they got, “Oh, geeze, some assholes decided to crash the party and trash the place. We’ll clean up the mess, put a conduct policy into effect, and get back to having our party”

    Soon Lee:

    So what you’re saying is we don’t fight fire with fire, but with water?

    Not to rain on anyone’s party *sorry* , but based on comments over at Mr Standlee’s I think we might still be at the stage of:
    “No, that’s an electrical fire, which means we need to get a Class C extinguisher rather than throwing water on it.” And about to move on to the stage of explaining what a Class C extinguisher looks like, why it is required, and how it works.

    But the fact that people identified the problem, and then designed and built a Class C extinguisher instead fighting fire with fire or throwing water on it, is absolutely awesome.

  28. Ann, why do you come into every thread in Battle Mode? You may find it beneficial to look back through the thread for Jim’s Rule of Buts

  29. Meredith: I honestly think the use of gin is more about the rhythm and sound than anything complicated. I tried replacing it with various different types of alcohol and it just didn’t seem as good.

    The cadence is lovely, I agree.

    I know Swirsky has already explained this to a degree but when I see “soaked in gin” I immediately go to the (now slightly uncommon) phrase “gin-soaked,” which I know I saw frequently as a kid when I was on a early-20th century fiction kick and saw it used to describe everyone from upper class businessmen to harmless and delightful little old ladies to dastardly urban villains.

    I’ve looked it up thanks to this dust-up and indeed found specific mentions of its 18th century reputation: “Gin became much less expensive than beer and became a favorite drink among the poor, but it was blamed for many social problems, and terms like “gin joint,” “gin mills,” and “gin-soaked,” which date from this era, indicate the negative feelings that became associated with its consumption.”

    That’s kind of neat! Not that the Puppies are using this to be, well, Puppies, but learning something new. This is why I love books.

  30. @Ann Somerville

    I have no idea why you’re arguing with half a sentence when your argument is covered by the half you didn’t bother to quote. At this point I don’t think you’re acting in good faith.

  31. Source:

    I know Swirsky has already explained this to a degree but when I see “soaked in gin” I immediately go to the (now slightly uncommon) phrase “gin-soaked,” which I know I saw frequently as a kid when I was on a early-20th century fiction kick and saw it used to describe everyone from upper class businessmen to harmless and delightful little old ladies to dastardly urban villains.

    And we still hear it on classic rock channels.

    “I met a gin-soaked barroom queen in Memphis
    She tried to take me upstairs for a ride…”

  32. @Source Decay

    Earlier I linked to this duo of images which you’ll probably enjoy. 🙂 That particular period of history onwards to the end of the Victorian era is my favourite for reading about ever since I did my GCSE (15-16 – first set of qualifications in the UK) and the history coursework was a big project on causes of crime, punishment and poverty using the Jack the Ripper case as a lens. I found that duo while I was going above the call of duty in research for that project (I ended up having to take a lot out and simplify because it was more of an A-Level essay – 17-18 year old qualifications – and it didn’t mark properly for GCSE). 🙂

  33. @NelC: (book nearest my left foot)

    That’s a tough call, as I’ve got books all around me, but I think the closest set would be a stack of Star Trek books: the Terok Nor trilogy, a couple of the Vanguard books, New Frontier: Treason, and Titan: Sword of Damocles.

    If I shift just a little, though, a different set is closer. It’s got a wider range, including (at a glance) Star Wars: Dynasty of Evil, Star Wars: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, all six of Chris Marie Green’s “Vampire Babylon” books (four trade, two mass-market), two of Robert Asprin’s “Dragon” books (including his last, finished by Jody Lyn Nye), and a handful of assorted anthologies.

    If I stand up, there’s no question: about three linear feet of GURPS books, starting with the early Fourth Edition hardbacks and going back into a selection of Third Edition worldbooks.

    Or, if I cheat by ejecting the USB stick from the netbook I’m typing this on and put that by my feet, I’ve got a tie of truly epic proportions. My entire ebook collection’s backed up there, along with all of my gaming PDFs… which includes every GURPS book that’s been released in that format. 🙂

  34. Oh curse it. Sorry, Tintinaus, I’m clumsy tonight and I missed that I’d spelled your nym wrong. EDIT: Or not because MAGIC TIMED EDIT BUTTON APPEARED.

  35. Not to worry, I send out more misspelled tweets etc, from my phone than the other way around. I did wonder if you had subconsciously recognised my Australianness and the slip was a cry for tim-tam biscuits.

  36. @Tintinaus

    I’ve never had an opportunity to try them, despite my uncle emigrating over there. I shall have to find out when he’s next travelling over and remedy that. I keep seeing people say how good they are!

  37. Nearest my left foot is the bookcase holding my shelves of honor, used to be only one shelf but hardcovers are rather big as are some softcover.

    So nearest is my 1892 copy of Anderson’s Fair tales (bought in terrible condition for only $3 yet I love it anyway) others on the shelf are signed copies of For the Win by Cory Doctorow, and my signed Elizabeth Moon books, The Deed Of Paksenarrion, Once a Hero, Trading in Danger, Echoes of Betrayal, Oath of Fealty and my signed by both author and translator Three Body Problem acquired just his past Nebula Weekend.

    Autographed trade and mass market paperbacks live on another shelf, my latest kick being to try and see if and how many anthologies I can get all the authors to sign. (Only counts if I can do it in person, getting books signed and meeting the author is 90% of the fun)

  38. ” At this point I don’t think you’re acting in good faith.”

    You certainly aren’t. You made a comment on one of mine without directly doing so, then get all snotty when I call you on it, and when I rebut your argument, you retreat behind the ‘You’re so mean!’ defence.

    if you reply to me, then address me. If you make an argument, be prepared to defend it. And if you are going to pretend your opponent is ignorant, be prepared to be told you’re talking crap. You are not going to pull passive agressive stuff on me and not be challenged.

    Otherwise, ignore me, as I will do you, Tintinaus. Use the scroll button. I’ve had more than enough of you two and your selective tone policing. Ignore me. I certainly plan to ignore you.

  39. @Matt Y:
    Which is nice of them but the help would turn out not to be needed as in the Canis Majoris culture it is the duty bound honor to start every battle with a long description of the weapons and ammunition they will be using to pay respects to the long pedigree of Canid weaponsmiths of each pack. Fortunately we have no such restrictions so that battle was pretty one sided.

    And that’s why “Monologuing provokes an attack of opportunity” is a very useful house rule.

    @Tintinaus: Cownado! And the second one is Cownado Moo.

    And cows are much more likely to be picked up by tornadoes, as the classic scene from Twister shows. “Cow.” *beat* “‘Nother cow.”

    @rcade: Long ago, I was the Sun part of the joint Sun-Apple Java team. The Aqua MacLookAndFeel is all mine.

    Book near my left foot – that would be one of the dusty books under the coffeetable, and topmost is “Death: The High Cost of Living”. Nearest e-book is Three Body Problem

  40. Ann, you may of course do whatever you wish, but I will comment on whatever I think is interesting, in the manner I deem most appropriate for the comment. I will try not to tag you in future so I don’t deliberately draw your attention to it. I do wish you’d read what people said rather than what you think they said in future, though. You spent quite a lot of time replying to fictional-me and I’m not going to argue fictional-me’s side when its so very far off base. That’s why I think you aren’t acting in good faith, not because you’re “mean” – which is another thing I never said. Fictional-me is on a roll.

  41. @Jamoche

    Oo! Death: The High Cost of Living is great.


    The only things better are choc coated Kingstons

    I hadn’t even heard of those! Australia is hoarding many nice treats, clearly.

  42. I’m…not entirely sure what’s closest to my left foot, but it’s either Drake’s Other Times Than Peace or the first of the Powers Definitive Hardcover Collection by Bendis and Oeming

    There’s an edit button I’m so excited I’m not sure how to cope send help

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