The Hammer of Tor 6/19

aka Sad Puppies Strictly Cash

Peter Grant, Vox Day, John Wright, Chris Meadows, Adam, Steve Davidson, Natalie Luhrs, Alexandra Erin, Nick Mamatas, Lela E. Buis, Lawrence Person, Soon Lee, Lis Carey, Melina D, Joe Sherry, and May Tree. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day William Reichard and Rev. Bob.)

Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man

”The Tor boycott is on” – June 19

Regrettably, due to the apparent lack of action by (and the deafening silence from) Tor and Macmillan, the time has come to do as I promised.  I therefore ask all those who believe, as I do, that the recent statement by Irene Gallo, and the pattern of behavior and statements from others at Tor whom I’ve previously named, are completely unacceptable, to join me in refusing to buy any of Tor’s products from now on. I support and endorse what Larry Correia said about this yesterday.

… this is between Tor and its readers who feel insulted, not the Sad Puppies campaign or the people who ran it … To the Sad Puppies supporters, do what you think is right. All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements. Stick with the facts.

There’s much more at the link.  (Recommended reading for background and more information.)

I am not a member of, and I do not speak for, either the ‘Sad Puppies’ or ‘Rabid Puppies’ campaigns (although I support the former).  I don’t represent cute puppies, playful puppies, cuddly puppies or hush puppies – only myself.  If you share, in whole or in part, my values and outlook on life, I invite you to join me in this boycott.  Don’t do so just because I, or anyone else, is asking you to do so.  Act on the basis of your own informed conscience and reasoned judgment.

There are those who protest that a boycott of Tor will prevent them buying books they want to read, and/or hurt their favorite authors.  I can only point out that used copies of those books are usually available from many sources soon after publication, often in very good to excellent condition, and sometimes at prices much lower than a new copy.  As for your favorite authors, if you buy a used copy of their book(s), why not send them the money they would have made as a royalty if you’d bought it new?  In fact, given that many royalties are a pittance, why not send them more than that?  Many authors have so-called ‘tip jars’ on their blogs or Web sites, or you can write to them enclosing a check or money order.

There are those who doubt that a boycott can achieve anything.  I can only reply that ‘doing the right thing’ is important in itself.  It’s a matter of honor – and although any mention of honor may be greeted with scorn and derision in these ‘modern’ times, I was raised to value the concept and live by it.  I still do.  I doubt I’m alone in that.

What’s more, in a SF/F market that’s increasingly dominated by independent authors, with cratering sales among mainstream publishers and tight financial margins, even a small boycott may have an impact out of all proportion to its size.  I’m certain, on the basis of support already voiced, that we can achieve a short-term six-figure reduction in Tor’s annual turnover.  All that’ll take is a couple of thousand people not spending their usual $50 per year on Tor books (and many have, until now, spent a lot more than that – for example, see here).  With more supporters and/or bigger spenders involved, the impact will be correspondingly greater.  I believe that over time, as word spreads and more join the boycott, we can grow this into a seven-figure annual impact – particularly when, in markets where we have a strong presence, we start talking to bookstores that carry Tor products.  Given current economic conditions and the present and predicted state of the SF/F market, our boycott may in due course make the difference between a profit and a loss in Tor’s annual trading accounts.

 

Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Tor boycott announced” – June 19

As you can see, I have been a Tor Books customer since 1986, when I bought a mass market paperback copy of The Edge of Tomorrow, by Isaac Asimov. And because I have considerably more experience of Tor Books and the consistently abusive and unprofessional behavior of its senior employees, I will go a little further than Mr. Grant has. Until Irene Gallo and Patrick Nielsen Hayden are no longer employed by Tor Books or Tor.com, I will not:

  1. Purchase any books published by Tor Books
  2. Read any books published by Tor Books

Given (2), this means that if Ms. Gallo and Mr. Nielsen Hayden are still employed by Tor Books in 2016, I will not nominate any books published by Tor Books for any awards. I encourage those who deem Ms. Gallo’s behavior to be unprofessional and unacceptable to follow Mr. Grant’s lead and join the Tor Books boycott. I am the leader of the Rabid Puppies, I do speak for them, and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they will follow my lead in this regard. I am not concerned about whether the boycott is “successful” or not. The simple fact is that if Macmillan is at all interested in the long-term success of Tor Books, it will jettison both Ms Gallo and Mr. Nielsen Hayden on the basis of their disloyalty, their unprofessional behavior, and their repeated violations of the Macmillan Code of Conduct, regardless of what any outside parties may happen to believe. I simply won’t have anything to do with Tor Books as long as those two individuals are employed there.

 

John C. Wright

“Embargo On” – June 19

Since I am Tor author and hitherto have been very proud of my association with that fine and famous imprint, I am fascinated (if mildly aghast) that the Tor management has allowed the situation to degenerate to this point.

Because of a financial conflict of interest on my part, it would be untoward of me to express fulsome support and applause for the boycott, and tell the boycotters their position is the principled and correct stand.

Nor will I point out, because it is obvious, that if you buy my books from Tor, then some part of your precious book-buying dollars goes into the wages of several people at Tor (but by no means all, or even most) who hate both you and me with a sick and soul-destroying hatred, a hatred like a disease that withers the heart and rots the brain.

Nor will I point out, because it should also be obvious, that any Christian gentleman would be willing to forgo a worldly reward of your generous book-buying dollars if he may have your spiritual reward of your loyalty instead. If the gentle reader feels compassion for me in my hour of need, or fears the boycott will harm my finances, I have a tip jar on this page.

So I cannot express support for this boycott.

The people with whom I work, my editor and cover art director, have a perfect right to expect me not to undermine their position, untenable as it may be. If the management wants to set the company policy as one of indifference to our patrons and clients on whom our livelihood depends, or contempt, or enmity, or loathing, that business decision is in their bailiwick.

 

Chris Meadows on Teleread

“Sad Puppies supporters, opponents respectively call for boycott, buying of Tor books”   – June 19

However, even leaving aside that Vox Day certainly does speak for the Rabid Puppies, what Correia and Grant miss is that, as a grass-roots movement (I was going to say “ostensibly grass-roots,” but what the heck, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt), “Sad Puppies” doesn’t really have a true “leadership” to speak for it at this point. Whether you’re an official “member” or not, if you identify with the movement, you’re going to be identified with the movement, especially by the movement’s opponents.

Make a lot of noise in support of Sad Puppy goals, and voila, you’re a Sad Puppy, and anything you do reflects on them. And likewise, anything the rest of them do reflects on you—which is why the Puppies movement as a whole is, rightly or wrongly, often tarred with the black brush that most accurately applies only to Vox Day and others like him. (Indeed, it’s why a lot of people use “Sad Puppies” as a shorthand to refer to both the Sad and Rabid Puppies.) And it’s why anti-Puppies (some have suggested the term “Happy Kittens”) feel justified in calling this a “Sad Puppies” boycott.

 

Adam on The Noisy Rogue

“The Boycott of Tor Books” – June 19

Even John C Wright, one of Tor’s own published writers, is unable to express support for Tor in this situation. Make your own minds up, dear readers. But rest assured that the culture wars have not been lost. They were only originally winning in the first place because our side couldn’t be bothered turning up. Now it’s on.

 

Steve Davidson on Amazing Stories

“Today is Buy From Tor Day” – June 19

Just a reminder that if you would like to express support for Irene Gallo, Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Moshe Feder and TOR books, today is the day to go out and buy a TOR book.

You can learn a bit more about this here.

 

Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man

“Moshe Feder doubles down (again) on the lies” – June 19

Friends, I give you Moshe Feder on Facebook earlier today:

Feder 2015-06-19 Facebook screen capture

….I’m still not going to call for the resignation or dismissal of any of the Tor employees I’ve named.  Nevertheless, if I needed any more justification for why I’m boycotting Tor, Mr. Feder has provided it.  I suppose I should thank him for that – and if he wishes to call me an ‘idiot’, well, I’ve been called a lot worse than that in my time.  Furthermore, for all Mr. Feder’s vitriol directed against him, he’s just made Vox Day look like a sensible, reasonable participant in this debate.  Vox might want to thank him, too . . .

 

 

 

 

Lela E. Buis

“Adding fuel to the flames” – June 19

What ever happened to that discussion about the Hugos?

What Hugos?

By this time, it should be fairly clear that the current debacle has nothing to do with the Hugo Awards. It isn’t really about the liberal versus conservative content of a few Tor books, either. I concede that there may be an ideological component to the attack. If Day is a a “fundamentalist Southern Baptist,” as he has been characterized, then it is likely that he’s offended by liberal viewpoints in general. Still, that’s no reason to go after Tor in particular. Publication of LGBTQ novels, for example, has been increasing across all major publishers in the last few years. Tor has no franchise on liberalism.

That makes it more likely that Day has launched a personal vendetta undercover of the conflict over the Hugo Awards. He has moved from naming Irene Gallo to Moshe Feder to Patrick Nielsen Hayden in the last few days. Most likely this is his actual target. Hayden is the man quoted in news reports announcing John Scalzi’s recent $3.4 million contract with Tor.

It’s a vendetta, folks. Day is pursuing a long-running feud with John Scalzi. That means that anyone who supports Day’s flame war by responding to him is only perpetuating the problem. Tor has got it right. It’s time to hunker down and wait him out.

 

Lawrence Person on Battleswarm Blog

“Sad Puppies Redux (Or Why That Tor Boycott Won’t Work)” – June 19

Since then, a few people on Twitter have been calling for a boycott of Tor Books over the incident. About this I would just like to make a few points:

  • Though the editorial stuff does lean toward the SJW side, plenty of conservative authors are published by Tor.
  • An ad hoc, Twitter-organized boycott is deeply unlikely to work. Given the way book sales are tracked, it’s unlikely the financial effects of any boycott would stand out from sales figures more than background noise. Most SF readers probably aren’t even active on Twitter, and even fewer have been following every twist and turn of the Sad Puppy Saga.
  • Given that Tor is a very small part of the Bertelsmann international conglomerate, chances are even less likely that that any boycott would be effective or even noticed.
  • Larry Correia has categorically stated that the Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts. He also notes, as he invariably does, “All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements.”

So put me down in the category of thinking a boycott is foolish, pointless and counterproductive.

One big point on the Sad Puppies campaign: Most recent domestic Worldcons have topped out in the 4,000-6,000 members range. I recently bought a Supporting Membership in Sasquan, and my membership number was in the 9,000s. This tends to indicate that the Hugos have indeed become a test of strength in the culture wars.

 

 

 

Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library

“Sucker Punch, by Eric S. Raymond” – June 19

Eric S. Raymond is a 2015 nominee for the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer. This is a perfectly competently written MilSF…vignette. It’s not a story. It describes a couple of important and unfortunate advances in military weapons and tactics, and presents the resulting dilemma quite poignantly.

 

Joe Sherry on Adventures In Reading

“Thoughts on the Hugo Award Nominees: Novella” – June 19

….The big surprise in this category, at least for me, was Tom Kratman’s Big Boys Don’t Cry. I had expected a very aggressive narrative designed to offend those of a more liberal persuasion, but what I got was a surprisingly graceful story of a dying sentient tank. That may sound weird, but given advancement in artificial intelligence and this being a science fiction story, it works. It works remarkably well, especially the deeper Kratman brings the story into Magnolia’s history.  Yes, there are also some clumsier jabs at how military tactics have been handled by those not committed to the mission or by those who don’t fully understand what it takes to win, and politicians get the sharp end of the stick in that regard (rightly so, in some cases).

If all of Arlan Andrews’ “Flow” was as successful as the second half of the story, I might have been able to move it up another space on my ballot, but unfortunately the beginning of the story was something of a chore to push through. The primitive ice world (a partially frozen post apocalyptic Earth) was tough to take, less because of the writing and more because of what I was wanted / was getting from the story. I’ll willingly take the hit that part of this is on me, but I often bounce off of fiction dealing with significantly more primitive Earth cultures unless the writing / storytelling can just grab a hold of me and make me care about the characters and / or the setting. “Flow” didn’t…until it did, midway through as Rist began to discover more of the world and realized that what his people taught may not be the way things actually work. I’m now curious to find “Thaw”, a previous story in this setting, and move on to “Fall”, the next in the setting.  I’d like to see where Andrews is taking this.

My Vote

1. “Pale Realms of Shade”
2. Big Boys Don’t Cry
3. “Flow”
4. “The Plural of Helen of Troy”
5. No Award
6. One Bright Star to Guide Them

 

Melina D on Subversive Reader

“Hugos 2015 Reading: Short Story” – June 19

Without too much further procrastination, it’s onto the stories. This was another full puppy-supported slate, so – to put it mildly – my expectations of good writing were low. I was pleasantly surprised by one story, meh over a couple of others and (predictably) was ready to set a thousand fires to another.

 

May Tree in a comment on File 770 – June 18

(The original is here if you don’t know it.) The original inspiration for looking at this source material was that “Voxie” rhymes with “Roxie.”

[Excerpt is only one-third of the whole parody.]

[PUPS] Hah! They had it coming! They had it coming! They took a genre in its prime And then they used it And they abused it We’ll slate the Hugos – It’s not a crime!

[SARAH] Now, I’m typing on my blog post, carvin’ up the SJWs for the Puppies, minding my own business, in storms Mike Glyer, in a jealous rage. “You’re a hydrophobe!” he says. He was crazy and he kept posting, “You’re a hydrophobe!” And then he ran into my axiom. He ran into my axiom ten times!

[PUPS] If you’d have been there If you’d have read it I betcha you would have thought the same!

[JULIETTE] Oenq, V nz fbeel, ohg vs lbh jvyy or ynoryvat zr nf n fnq chccl V jvyy unir gb nfx lbh gb jvguqenj zr sebz lbhe yvfg. Lbh qvq abg fnl lbh jrer tbvat gb or pnyyvat vg gur Fnq Chccvrf yvfg. V srry yvxr lbh jrer zvfercerfragvat vg. V’z unccl gb or bar bs lbhe Uhtb erpbzzraqngvbaf. Guvf vf qvssrerag.

[BRAD] Yeah, but will you be on my slate?

[JULIETTE] UH UH, not Puppy!

[LARRY] My buddy Brad and I had this Sad Puppy act, and my “devil” Voxie traveled around with us. Now, for the most recent year in our slate, we nommed 20 of Brad’s buddies in a row. One, two, three, four, five…Kratman, Freer, Antonelli, Reid, one right after the other. Well, this one night we were ranting about liberals, the three of us, boozing and having a few laughs, and we run out of ice. So I go out to get some. I come back, open the door, and there’s Brad and Voxie nomming Number Seventeen – “Wisdom From My Internet.” Well, I was in such a state of shock, I completely blacked out. I can’t remember a thing. It wasn’t until later, when I was washing the toner off my hands, I even knew they were Rabid.

[PUPS] They had it coming! They had it coming! Ann Leckie does her genders wrong! I didn’t read her! But if I read her I wouldn’t know which “she” has a schlong!

 

743 thoughts on “The Hammer of Tor 6/19

  1. Sorry, Meredith, Ann are you fighting about Meredith’s point:

    Hmm, I’m not sure its true that describing things that happen can’t be prejudiced. To use a (slightly) less charged example than most, a tiny number of Italian Americans are in the mafia, but 69% of Italian American characters in films are portrayed in a negative light, often as part of organised crime.

    Which I thought was addressed to Steven Schwatz and Gabriel F.? Cause that seemed a needed correction, and I am still mystified how Steven and Gabriel could miss that the perpetuation of tropes is part of bigotry.

  2. @MaxL

    There’s an edit button I’m so excited I’m not sure how to cope send help

    Yes I felt like that too, if also a little bit of an idiot for only noticing it after the second post! Typo fixing, all the typo fixing. *starry eyed*

    Also, Powers is awesome.

  3. @influxus

    Ann’s very first comment to me was arguing with something fictional-me said and it only got worse after I asked her to tone it down once. I’m pretty sure she just doesn’t like me, which is fine, no-one has to.

    But yes, you are correct, it was a general point relevant to the whole conversation and multiple people, as I told her and which she didn’t accept, presumably because fictional-me was saying something else.

  4. Meredith:

    choc coated Kingstons:

    I hadn’t even heard of those! Australia is hoarding many nice treats, clearly.

    Well, yes and no.

  5. @Jane_Dark: (Kobo, DRM, and Max Gladstone)

    Several publishers have gone to EPUB3 in the past year or so, and Kobo’s gotten up to speed in terms of handling it correctly in the past few months after having a very rocky time of it before then. If you’ve been staying away because of that, I strongly suggest taking a second look.

    I bought Locke’s Up Against It (2011) there on Torsday, but more recent releases are Vaughn’s Low Midnight (Dec. 2014) and Scalzi’s Lock In (Aug. 2014) – bought both there on June 9th, and both are EPUB3s that I easily downloaded without seeing a hint of DRM. At this point, if you’re having “cannot download” issues with Kobo/EPUB3, it’s a bug that needs to be fixed rather than just How Things Are.

    @tonieee:

    I’ve been using Kobo e-readers for some time now. I’ve got two in reach (a Glo and an Aura H2O) and have passed two more on to my mother (my first WiFi and her current Touch). They’ll handle MOBI books okay, but they’re made for EPUB, and I like them much more than I do my neglected Kindle Touch. First and foremost, they accept memory cards; the current models have microSDHC slots. Second, and the reason I still have my Glo despite using my H2O more regularly: the Glo doesn’t use a soldered-on memory chip. Instead, it uses an internal microSDHC slot under an easily-detached back cover. (The covers were originally designed to be switched out as a fashion statement, but that idea flopped.)

    What that means is that, using the right software and taking proper care, it’s possible to pull the original 2GB stick, clone it onto a larger-capacity one, extend the data partition, and plug it right back into the device. Works like a charm. Granted, it takes a lot of ebooks to fill up even 1GB, but considering how cheap memory is these days… why not, right?

  6. @JJ

    I hadn’t even heard of those! Australia is hoarding many nice treats, clearly.

    Well, yes and no.

    What. 🙁 That is terrible.

    PS. Someone please take my edit button away help I’m addicted.

  7. Woo-hoo! Just fixed a tag problem! Thanks for the Edit button, Mike!

    My days of sending all my disposable income to Rev. Bob and MickyFinn and CPaca in exchange for illicit html tags are <

  8. @JJ

    I can’t stop. I have to physically leave the page or I obsessively edit every comment for five minutes. I think its gone to my head!

  9. @Jim Henley: Hi hi! Another Jenna Moran fan! I love Hitherby Dragons with a deep and abiding love, and am rather sad that it will likely never finish.

    The book nearest my left foot currently is a guidebook to birds of Texas. Second closest is The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which I actually finished reading quite some time ago and should put up on a shelf. The closest SF is a little hard to gauge, but might well be Jemisin’s The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.

  10. It just occurred to me that, thanks to a recent Pile Collapse, I actually do have a book relatively near my left foot: Riverworld and Other Stories, which has “Jungle Rot Kid on the Nod” and “J. C. on the Dude Ranch,” but not, as the author’s introduction assures us, a story called Dwellers in the Pup Tense.

    Yep, Dwellers in the Pup Tense. It’s like he knew.

  11. I’m not sure I like an edit button. Sure, yay for typos, but boo for letting Certain Sad People change the meaning or wording of the shit they say.

  12. idontknow on June 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm said:
    …Rejection from Beneath Ceaseless Skies, but with a brief critique, (which is a little rare these days), and an invitation to submit to them in the future that seemed like a little more than the formality that they usually seem to be…

    @idontknow: That’s a very good sign. Editors get a *lot* of stuff from the slushpile, and they tell, at *most,* 10% of those to submit again, probably closer to 3-5%, which means they had to really like your story. There’s too much volume for them to screw around with politeness. You should submit something else to them within the next 4 months, if possible.

  13. @KurtBusiek:
    “I met a gin-soaked barroom queen in Memphis…”

    THAT’S what those four syllables are? GOD, I’ve been hearing it for years, I thought it was either “gypsy [something?] a couple of made up words, like “jinsa barra.”

    That song makes… slightly… more sense now.

  14. GSLamb on June 20, 2015 at 9:11 pm said:
    Here’s a thought (Re Dinosaur).
    What if it did win the Hugo and SP3 followers are still in the time line where that happened. One of the SPs made a time machine and, via whatever means, altered enough votes to undo that “horror”.
    The altered time line has already caught up with us, but the SPs still remember the original.

    If we’re now discussing time travel, there is a non-zero possibility that some future anti-slaters sent Vox back in time, seemingly to destroy the Hugos, but actually to jump-start us into protecting them…

  15. GabrielF, the button disappears after five minutes, so it’s not really a large window to unfuck your post

  16. then we are left with *unrelible* narrator as only logical reading of text.

    Possibly, though I would have said ‘vague’ rather than unreliably, and agree with Jim Henley’s critique. Neither vague nor unreliable are the same as mentally deranged, though I accept you were being sarcastic. Puppies being sarcastic about the story is not exactly new, it’s just often hard to discern the point of their sarcasm.

  17. ‘By being challenged, I came up with a more interesting and logical reading of text.’

    Only by leaving a fairly large and wide excluded middle between working class and country-club elite.

    OHMYGOD THE SECRET FILE770 UNIX EDIT POWER! WOHOOO! EDITIN’ EDITIN’ JUST SITTIN’ HERE EDITIN’ ON A SUNDAY MOOOOOOOORNIN’!

  18. @Tenar

    I believe you have identified a need. The open source software foundation(s) should really do an eReader app for libraries, if they aren’t already working on one. I’m not connected to the technical side anymore, but the ALA (and European) charters are concerned with the public domain, free speech and anti-surveillance, which means they’re usually interested in open source software that’s also easy for patrons to use. You sound like you might have connections or would know where to find a pre-existing project. (For real, some of the “best small programs” I’ve used were single person noodling projects that were solving an individual programmer’s problem). ????

    When my leg is mended I’m going to volunteer at the local branch of the library (they are now volunteer run due to funding cuts) so I think I’ll ask them about it then and see if there’s any way I can help with that.

  19. @Rev. Bob

    I’ve been using Kobo e-readers for some time now. I’ve got two in reach (a Glo and an Aura H2O) and have passed two more on to my mother (my first WiFi and her current Touch). They’ll handle MOBI books okay, but they’re made for EPUB, and I like them much more than I do my neglected Kindle Touch. First and foremost, they accept memory cards; the current models have microSDHC slots. Second, and the reason I still have my Glo despite using my H2O more regularly: the Glo doesn’t use a soldered-on memory chip. Instead, it uses an internal microSDHC slot under an easily-detached back cover. (The covers were originally designed to be switched out as a fashion statement, but that idea flopped.)

    What that means is that, using the right software and taking proper care, it’s possible to pull the original 2GB stick, clone it onto a larger-capacity one, extend the data partition, and plug it right back into the device. Works like a charm. Granted, it takes a lot of ebooks to fill up even 1GB, but considering how cheap memory is these days… why not, right?

    Thanks for the tip. I’m currently reading ebooks on my phone – I am thinking of getting an ereader at some point when I’ve got a bit of spare cash and Kobo was the one I was thinking of though I’ll probably get a second-hand one due to lack of funds.

  20. Perhaps in future you could grapple with the fact that frat boys are not an universal phenomenon; strangely enough, frat boys do not exist outside the U.S

    In Happy’s defence, it was suggested by others countering the gin-soaked working-class thugs assertion that it could just as easily be frat boys, and in fairness, the widows and orphans bit does cut against that. However, the idea that snooker exists only in working-class gin-joints and country clubs isn’t exactly tenable.

  21. Instead of Happy Kittens, can we just be straight up Murder Cows?

    A Murder Of Cows! Or, as we call it, dinner.

  22. @Rev Bob, re the downloadability of epub3 format:

    Interesting! I will definitely take another look. Thanks!

  23. Nick Mamatas on June 20, 2015 at 9:46 pm said:
    It struck me that “gin-soaked” was just a flinch, a foolish attempt to avoid the more common and borderline cliché phrase “rum-soaked.” (Google NGram tells me that the former has been the more popular turn of phrase for the past 200 years, and a normal Google search has more than twice the hits for “rum-soaked” than as for “gin-soaked.”)

    Might this not be about people though? Rum-soaked puddings are delicious whereas gin-soaked ones are just nasty.

    Why, why is this the comment I feel driven to post?

  24. @IDK: (MHI vs. Mary Sues)

    While you’re correct on the origin of the term, “Mary Sue” and its variants (Gary Stu, Marty Stu, etc.) have also taken a broader meaning as “self-insert wish-fulfillment character” – and in that sense, I agree with rcade; I think Owen qualifies.

    @Tintinaus: (many links)

    That Gallup information’s pretty interesting.

    @Happy-Puppy: “There is no SFF anywhere to my left. But then, I am a puppy.”

    Isn’t the perceived problem that most SFF is to your left? Having no SFF to your left would make you one of them there SJWs, wouldn’t it? 😉

    @various: (gin and dinosaurs)

    I’m with Kurt here. Whenever I see the phrase “gin-soaked,” I hear a cowbell leading into this, and I have no trouble at all conjuring up an image of the scene. For the record, I live in the US South and have never set foot in England…

    Cow(bell) Apocalypse, indeed.

    @Gabriel F.:

    At least the edit function only works for five minutes. It’s not like someone could do a major history rewrite.

  25. @idontknow

    “If you didn’t want to support the other work on your nominating ballot, why did you nominate it? The act of putting a work on a nominating ballot is perfectly reasonable evidence that you wish to support that work.”

    True, it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption, but there’s a part of me that would rather just be sure to err on the side of absolute precision when it comes to knowing what the intent of a voter is.

    Is it your contention that the act of nominating something for an award does not constitute a clear notice of intention to support it for inclusion on the final ballot? Please name at least one other reason that a nominator would put something on their nomination ballot, and explain clearly why that reason exists for an E Pluribus Hugo nomination ballot but does not exist for the current system’s nomination ballot.

  26. GSLamb,

    Yeah. I prefer DA even though Crypto has the furniture erotica scene. I could’ve made that less ambiguous!

  27. @alexvdl, GSLamb:

    You guys just had to remind me of that website, didn’t you?

    (Edit: Hmm. There are a couple of problematic bits on that wiki page that I didn’t spot right off. No endorsement intended; just remember that Encyclopedia Dramatica is kinda out there.)

  28. I know this thread is stale, but if you were my English lit student, my Happy-puppy, you would earn a bold F for your analysis of “If You Were a Dinosaur My Love.”

    You seem to have gotten this idea that the way to earn a good grade in my class is to come up with the weirdest possible interpretation of the text, and that it’s okay to weakly support that interpretation with a tortured reading of minor phrases and a lot of outside-of-text speculation with no references. Plus, if you’re going to go THAT far out on a limb, your prose (including spelling of the author’s name) had better be beyond reproach.

    Maybe that’s how you got As in your other English classes. (Maybe Hoyt. She really goes in for that soft of thing.) But in my class, if you’re going to turn “five blustering men soaked in gin and malice” into “the narrator is clearly unreliable,” you’re going to have to work pretty hard to convince me. What in the story demands that “soaked in gin” is being used as anything other than an idiom for “drunk”? You try to turn it into a class marker, without even considering that its most obvious referent is a Rolling Stones song, or considering its use in other idioms (ie, “ginned up”) or considering the physical properties of gin compared to other alcohols (the strong juniper scent).

    In other words, your analysis is fanciful, but not imaginative or well-considered. In fact, it seems as if you are simply regurgitating a poorly-remembered interpretation you encountered elsewhere, perhaps online. You remember the outlandish conclusion, but not the argument chain required to support it.

    My God! Did Hoyt do this story last quarter? She did, didn’t she! You’re regurgitating Hoyt’s argument!

    (Mutters angrily about tenure.)

  29. Doire,

    Rum-soaked cakes surely are delicious. But there are other things that are gin-soaked, like raisins, which is a popular arthritis treatment of dubious effectiveness. (But it works better if for every part of gin you put in the raisins, you take a swig yourself!)

  30. It is a bit ironic to have had an argument over whether the general idea “sometimes people will do horrible things to others for no good reason at all, just whatever labels come to hand” is just too offensive to engage with immediately proceeding a mass murder in which the killer killed more women than men, while explaining that he had to do it because “you rape our women”.

  31. ” I am still mystified how Steven and Gabriel could miss that the perpetuation of tropes is part of bigotry.”

    Here’s the thing — there are so many tropes out there (as indicated by the many different readings of those characters — heck, we’ve spent pages discussing the social status of gin drinkers ;)) — that it’s almost impossible, especially in an era when our apophenia sometimes gets the better of us, to avoid writing *some* kind of a trope; and when it’s a villain/antagonist/cause of disaster? Unless it’s hopelessly vague, it’s going to push someone’s buttons.Which is why it’s very hard to describe a story — especially one as short as Swirsky’s — as “bigoted” for describing a single event.

    Now, if it kept cropping up — like liberal politicians in Tank Marmot’s writing, or Catholics (or Muslims) in the later writing of Thomas M. Disch — then you have a point. Or, for that matter, the TV example pointed out — where the solution is not only “fewer Italian gangsters” — though it’s hard to write a Mafia story without using Italians — but rather “More people who are Italian-identified to decrease that percentage.”

    It’s one of the big problems with the unmarked state — it helps to perpetuate bigotry by making its exceptions more obvious.

  32. McJulie!!!!

    You seem to have gotten this idea that the way to earn a good grade in my class is to come up with the weirdest possible interpretation of the text, and that it’s okay to weakly support that interpretation with a tortured reading of minor phrases and a lot of outside-of-text speculation with no references. Plus, if you’re going to go THAT far out on a limb, your prose (including spelling of the author’s name) had better be beyond reproach.

    *hoisting English teacher flag of connection across the stormy seas* (I remember you noted the $$ summer teaching!).

    Yes, yes, so true–and not only is this a wonderfully hilarious commentary (Hoyt’s class) on the imbroglio, but reminds me of how reading some of this stuff online actually makes me look much more kindly on my students’ writing because there are very few that descend to this depth.

    (There was one, years ago, whose paper on Browning’s “Last Duchess” claimed it was about chivalry and courtly love and went on for pages…..but that’s a standout as one of the worst in 23 years here…..)

  33. @ tonieee

    I hope the leg mends soonest.

    …I’m going to volunteer at the local branch of the library (they are now volunteer run due to funding cuts) so I think I’ll ask them about it then and see if there’s any way I can help with that.

    Just in case you weren’t aware, most local branches (even in cities) don’t handle software design or any of the workflow analysis and specifications which would be necessary to creating an open source app. However, they could probably tell you if they’ve had requests for such a thing, and/or recommend their contact with your national library association, and/or the committees which might already be working on such a thing. Good Luck, and have fun volunteering. Libraries always appreciate help.

  34. Thank you Tenar.

    I know it will be the main city branch that handles the software (also I pretty sure it’s third party software rather than anything they’ve developed themselves) but I’m sure someone will be able to point me in the right direction.

  35. “hoisting English teacher flag of connection across the stormy seas* (I remember you noted the $$ summer teaching!).”

    rrede — I’m afraid that wasn’t me. 🙂

    Sorry if I gave a false impression — I am not actually an English teacher. I do have an English lit degree, though. I have also helped out English 101 students who were a little hazy on the concept of what it means to write a literary analysis.

  36. Seconding/thirding/whatevering the recommendation for Puella Magi Madoka Magika. I haven’t watched much anime in recent years, but I watched that one and thought it was great. (But no, not at all the thing if you’re depressed and looking for a pick-me-up.)

  37. McJulie: Oops, sorry! (I have a terrible memory with names). In any case, you were spot on with your discussion of how beginning literary analysis projects often go wrong. I think a good deal of it is due (in Texas at least) to the dismal teaching at the secondary level (where standardized tests imposed by George Bush before he became president) have driven education into the ground. Poetry especially gets pretty short shrift, and students seem to come into intro to lit courses thinking that there are secret messages/hidden messages “behind the lines,” and the last thing you do is talk about what the words actually are, or mean, let alone connote.

  38. To McJulie: I enjoyed your post. But if I were a student in one of your classes, I would look at the readings and assigned text and then carefully vomit upon the page whatever would earn an A. Fortunately the TAs who taught my sections enjoyed my variant readings of Pound and Eliot and Whitman and all my English papers were well received.

  39. But if I were a student in one of your classes, I would look at the readings and assigned text and then carefully vomit upon the page

    I see. You went to one of those party schools, didn’t you?

  40. And this, dear temporal tourists, is a nice example of a mid-1900s soul stuck in a “happy” early 2000s body. Unfortunately, some people prefer to live in the past without actually going there.
    Next on our round of pre-puppicalypse sites …
    [sorry, contemporaries! no spoilers allowed]

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