aka The Puppy In God’s Eye
The Geiger counter pours out a relentless beat as the fallout rains down. The glow in today’s roundup comes from Kameron Hurley, Jo Lindsay Walton, Martin Wisse, Mark Nelson, The Weasel King, Joe Sherry, George R.R. Martin, Vox Day, Jim Butcher, Larry Correia, Lou Antonelli, T. C. McCarthy, Michael Johnston, Alexandra Erin, John Scalzi, Myke Cole, Brad Torgersen, Dave Freer, William Reichard, Michael Z. Williamson and less easily identified others. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Steve Moss and Laura Resnick.)
https://twitter.com/KameronHurley/status/595286661342175235
Kameron Hurley on Motherboard
“It’s About Ethics in Revolution” – May 4
Sorva took her seat on the other side of the table and waited. Both men could pass for Caucasian, as if that even bore mentioning, and sat in stuffed leather chairs. They wore extravagant codpieces that matched their suits, their members so cartoonishly large she could see the tips peeking up from the edge of the table. They both wore backwards caps.
It was the Director of Business Development, Marken, a lanky man with a sincere, pudgy face, who spoke first.
“Do you understand that when we choose the very best forward-looking brand messages each year for the Business Development Award ballot we open to our corporate writers, it must adhere to certain standards?”
Jo Lindsay Walton
“Quick Hugo thought” – May 4
Some folk out there seem to be prevaricating between (a) No-Awarding the Puppies selections or (b) No-Awarding every Puppy-dominated category, since it would be totally unfair to give “The Day the World Turned Upside Down” a Hugo by default, and pretty unfair to give e.g. The Goblin Emperor a Hugo with reduced competition.
I’m prevaricating too, and I know exactly what would let me make up my mind: releasing the full nomination data. That way you could see who else could have been on the ballot. Then the procedure’s simple: you construct a virtual ballot from a Puppy-free world (the kind of Stalinist disappearing we SJWs lurve) and make your choice. If your selection from the virtual ballot is on the real ballot as well, you vote for them above No Award; otherwise you No Award the whole category.
But we don’t have the full nomination data, right?
Martin Wisse on Wis[s]e Words
“No Award All The Things” – May 4
No Award All the Things!
Sorry Thomas Olde Heuvelt, you may actually get your Hugo this year, but since you’re the only candidate there on merit I felt uneasy voting for you by default. Better luck next year.
Mark Nelson on Heroines of Fantasy
“An Ever Changing Landscape” – May 4
Who pays when the real world intrudes on our imaginary landscape? If we start turning against each other and fall to squabbling over increasingly empty honors, how does that make us look? The truth is SFF needs to grow up. At times I have felt that our genre heading allowed us to adopt a mock superior tone; mostly as a response to being ignored by “real literature” and those who write criticism. We reveled in being aberrant. We rallied around our awards and celebrated our words in spite of the roaring silence from the wider world. We were a club with giants as members. We were privy to secret knowledge with informed, inclusionary eye-winks. We were the wandering Jews relegated to pulp fiction status, respected by none other than those lucky, lucky few who accepted the words and understood the latent power of the language of ideas. I wonder if the worst thing to ever happen to the genre was its popular success. The bigger “it” got, the more insistently came the calls for “it” to be taken seriously. And when film tech caught up with story tech, a marriage of commercial explosion formed. “Money, money changes everything…” And at present the affect has not been altogether positive. We were once the progressives. Now we look like idiots fighting over cheesecake while the Titanic’s deck begins to tilt. Wow. We have all but rendered the Hugo award useless. WorldCon cannot avoid the taint of controversy. The folks putting on the con deserve better.
The Weasel King
“theweaselking.livejournal.com/4673543” – May 4
The Locus Awards: A collection of skiffy fic untainted by ballot-stuffing assholes. Maybe not all to your taste, but reliably “dickface asslimousines did not shit on this ballot and then demand that you to eat it with a smile” Bonus sick burn: Connie Willis, awesome author[1] and perennial Hugo presenter, told the Hugos to fuck off because of the penisnose MRA anuscacti who hijacked their nomination process, and she’s presenting the Locus Awards.
Joe Sherry on Adventures in Reading
“Books Read: April 2015” – May 4
Discovery of the Month: If not for all of the fracas over the Hugo Awards, I may never have read Eric Flint’s 1632, which was a fairly enjoyable romp taking a group of twentieth century Americans back into seventeenth century Europe. I already have the next book, Ring of Fire, coming in from the library.
George R.R. Martin on Not A Blog
“LOCUS Nominations Announced” – May 4
While this year, admittedly, may be different due to the influence of the slate campaigns, over most of the past couple of decades the Locus Poll has traditionally had significantly more participants than the Hugo nomination process. Looking over the Locus list, one cannot help but think that this is probably what the Hugo ballot would have looked like, if the Puppies had not decided to game the system this year. Is it a better list or a worse one? Opinions may differ. The proof is in the reading.
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“Three centuries strong” – May 4
As Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil, we are pleased to declare that Malwyn, Whore-Mistress of the Spiked Six-Whip, has reported that she has completed the initial Branding of the Minions. She has now gone to take a well-deserved vacation in one of the more secluded lava pits in our Realm of Deepest Shadow, where she will no doubt be nursing her aching wrists and filing for overtime as well as worker’s compensation….
“How many of us are there?”
335 as of this morning.
@Dedwrekka I think we'll see what people think when the voting goes down. 🙂
— Jim Butcher (@longshotauthor) May 3, 2015
Larry Correia on Monster Hunter Nation
“Arthur Chu sucks at everything but Jeopardy” – May 4
Many regulars may remember Social Justice Warrior and Salon author Arthur Chu as the dipshit who declared Brad Torgersen’s 20 year interracial marriage and his biracial children as “shields” to hide Brad’s racism. He is one of the morons who blamed the Sad Puppies’ success on GamerGate.
Well, after a day of futile harassment, his team of idiots couldn’t even call in a bomb threat correctly.
T. C. McCarthy on YouTube
Lou Antonelli on This Way To Texas
Reach out and insult somebody – May 4
The official announcement of the nominations for the 2015 Hugo awards was made on April 4, so its been a month since then, Gee, time flies when you’re having fun.
One thing I’ve learned in the past month is that, thanks to the wonders of the latest technology and the internet, someone you don’t know and have never met, who may live thousands of miles away, can call you an “asshole” in public.
Michael Johnston in a comment on Whatever – May 4
Rachel Swirsky said: “Please, please, please, please stop with the “put down” rhetoric about the puppies, and the “you know what has to be done about rabid animals” and “take the dog out behind the barn.”
It’s vicious and horrible. The puppies and how they’ve acted toward me and others sucks. But good lord, let’s keep threats of violence, however unserious, out of it. Please.”
This, in particular, illustrates the difference between the puppies and their perceived enemies. In every “liberal” space I’m following, any threats or overly abusive rhetoric is met with calls for civility. In the SP/RP spaces, the rhetoric is largely about how we deserve horrible things done to us, which are often described in detail–and the moderators not only allow it, but indulge in it themselves.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“What! Your Sad Puppies Are Evolving” – May 4
This is a significant shift from Day for two reasons.
The first is that it signals what he thinks is most likely to happen. He rode high on the sweeping fantasy vision of himself as a Roman general leading a slavering horde of berserkers across the frozen river to assault the well-fortified position of his enemies (note to self: suggest history lessons for Vox), but he has just enough self-awareness to know that his strategy of lying and repeating the lie could come back and bite him if he tried to claim a sweeping victory where none existed, so he’s starting the spin now.
The second is that—as mentioned before—the endgame he now endorses is something the Sad Puppies have claimed to have wanted as their ultimate endgame.
Season of the Red Wolf
As with Torgersen, Correia can’t be bothered with addressing what Vox Day actually writes about blacks (the problem there – in the linked blog entry – is not the silly and ridiculous debate itself that Vox Day quotes from, it’s Vox Day’s own commentary on African-Americans in response to that debate that is eyebrow raising) and women alone. Of course as soon as one does acknowledged what Vox Day actually writes about blacks and women (never mind gays), then the only way to defend those indefensible prejudices, is by sinking into prejudice itself. Correia, like Torgersen, thus avoids that trap (defending the actual indefensible remarks/comments of Vox Day’s) by not ever quoting Vox Day’s most egregious commentary in this regard, and getting to grips with what he actually says. Correia, as with Torgersen, just doesn’t go anywhere near what Vox Day actually writes about blacks, women and gays for that matter. The easier to whitewash why Vox Day is considered persona non grata, namely for very good reasons. Yes it’s all so hypocritical, given the genre Left’s multiple prejudices (including of course their anti-Semitism that doesn’t bother anybody really, least of all genre Jewry) but this also misses the point.
John Scalzi on Whatever
“I’d Rather Like Men Than To Be a Sad Puppy” – May 4
If Brad Torgersen wants to insult me, insinuating I'm gay won't work. It's not an insult to be gay. Be an insult to be a Sad Puppy, however.
— John Scalzi (@scalzi) May 4, 2015
Myke Cole
“An open letter to Chief Warrant Officer Brad R. Torgersen” – May 4
Chief Warrant Officer Torgersen,
As you are no doubt aware, The Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell Repeal Act of 2010 removed barriers to homosexual members in the armed services, who may now serve openly and as equals.
You have long held the position that homosexuality is immoral behavior, and most recently made denigrating jokes regarding the orientation aimed at Mr. John Scalzi.
Your moral positions are your own, and I will not question them. However, I will remind you that you are a military officer and charged with the leadership of men and women of *all* walks of life, religions, creeds, sexual orientations, socio-cultural backgrounds and ethnicities. Every single one of these people has the right to believe that you will faithfully discharge your duties as an officer, not spend their lives carelessly, not make them endure unnecessary hardship, that you will care for them with compassion and dedication. On or off duty, you are *always* an officer.
Your repeated statements of your thoughts on homosexuality in public forums create the very reasonable apprehension among homosexual members of the service that you hold them in contempt and will not lead them to the utmost of your ability, will not look to their needs and concerns, and may place them at undue risk. That this is surely not your intention is irrelevant.
Further, your publically denigrating statements regarding Mr. Scalzi are base, undignified and show questionable judgment. You, Chief Warrant Officer Torgersen, are an officer, but no gentleman. Your positions are inconsistent with the values of the United States military, and its commitment to being a service that belongs to ALL Americans.
Our nation deserves better.
Respectfully,
Myke Cole
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“Never retreat, never apologize” – May 4
Does no one listen or learn? Never, EVER apologize to SJWs! Case in point: “The apology was worse than the initial attempted slur — it reinforced the fact that Torgersen thinks calling someone gay is a slur.” I repeat. NEVER APOLOGIZE TO SJWs. They will see it as fear, take the apology, and use it as a club with which to beat you. Never back down to them, never retreat, never apologize.Notice that this was all posted AFTER Torgersen apologized to Scalzi.
Brad R. Torgersen
“Keyboard rage” – May 4
Today, I am told Myke Cole is on about me. Since Myke doesn’t really know me from Adam, I have to shrug and take whatever he said with a grain of salt. But then, most people who’ve been on about me lately — because of Sad Puppies 3 — don’t know me, either. I may take it personally if a friend, a family member, or a respected senior I admire, has hard words for me. But total strangers spewing hard words?
Well, total strangers may have an opportunity to reconsider at a later point. Especially if they meet me face-to-face.
Cirsova
“Hugo Awards Best Fan Writer Category” – May 4
So, in this post, I will try to define what “Fan Writer” means and use it to justify my support of Jeffro Johnson in this year’s Best Fan Writer category.
On the face of it, a Fan Writer is just that. A fan who writes. They are a fan of something in the realm of fantasy and science fiction, and they write about fantasy and science fiction from the perspective of someone who is a fan to an audience of fellow or potential fans. A good fanwriter is like an evangelical minister of fantasy and science fiction; they give sermons to the believers to help them better understand the texts they know and love and they take the good word to those who have not heard it. You’ve been missing something in your life, and you don’t quite know what it is, but I think I can help you; here’s this story by Lord Dunsany!
Dave Freer on Mad Genius Club
“Research, Hard-SF, stats and passing small elephants” – May 4
John Scalzi kindly provided us via his friend Jason Sanford a near text-book perfect example of GIGO. “Recently author John Ringo (in a Facebook post previously available to the public but since made private) asserted that every science fiction house has seen a continuous drop in sales since the 1970s — with the exception of Baen (his publisher), which has only seen an increase across the board. This argument was refuted by author Jason Sanford, who mined through the last couple of years of bestseller lists (Locus lists specifically, which generate data by polling SF/F specialty bookstores) and noted that out of 25 available bestselling slots across several formats in every monthly edition of Locus magazine, Baen captures either one or none of the slots every month — therefore the argument that Baen is at the top of the sales heap is not borne out by the actual, verifiable bestseller data.” As I said: first you need to understand what you’re sampling. For example, if you set up a pollster at a Democratic convention, at 10 pm, in a site just between the bar and the entry to the Men’s urinals… even if he asks every person passing him on the way in, you’re not going to get a very good analysis of what Americans think of a subject. Or what women think of the subject. What you will get is middling bad sample of what mildly pissed male Democratic Party conference attendees think. Middling bad, because many of the passers will be hurry to go and pass some water first. It’s vital to understand what you’re sampling – or what you’re not. Let’s just deconstruct the one above. In theory Sanford was attempting to statistically prove John Ringo’s assertion wrong. What he proved was nothing of the kind (Ringo may be right or wrong, but Sanford failed completely). What he proved was that on the Locus bestseller list, (the equivalent of the Democratic Party convention and the route between the bar and the gentleman’s convenience) that Baen was not popular. That is verifiable. The rest is wishful thinking, which may be true or false. Firstly ‘Bestseller’ does not equal sales numbers. A long tail – which Baen does demonstrably have, can outsell ‘bestseller’ and five solid sellers outsell one bestseller and four duds. Secondly, independent bookstores who self-select by accepting polling, selected by a pollster (Locus) with a well-established bias are not remotely representative of book sales in general, or representative of the choices book buyers have. Thirdly, it is perfectly possible to ‘capture’ no bestseller slots at all, even in a worthwhile sample (which Locus polling isn’t) and STILL be the one house that is actually growing. It depends what you’re growing from – which of course this does not measure and cannot.
Short of actual book sales numbers, and data on advances – which we’ll never see, staffing is probably the best clue. I know several authors at other houses whose editors have left, and quite a lot of other staff at publishers who’ve been let go. Over the last few years, the number of signatures on my Baen Christmas card have gone up year on year.
William Reichard
“Silent Punning (aka ‘The Hijacker’s Guide to the Galaxy’”) – May 4
Having run through quite a few sci-fi themed puns regarding the Hugo Award debacle, the community is apparently moving on to Westerns (e.g., “A Fistful of Puppies“).
I have to say, this is my favorite part of online warfare–when the rest of the community acknowledges the madness of it all and just starts having fun again. Because there should be some kind of silver lining in this.
Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand
https://twitter.com/mzmadmike/status/595265324263546881
syberious _ny on “Ebay: Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand”
Here’s the scoop…I designed this holster (and its companion holster in Left Hand configuration) because of the whole Sad Puppy / Hugo Award kerfuffle. My original thought was to perhaps raffle them off to raise money for a veterans organization. But, online raffles in the state of Tennessee (where I live and have my business) are tightly regulated, and it would have cost more to run a raffle than what the raffle could potentially bring in.
So, I’m listing these here on FleaBay, with the proceeds going directly to help a friend who is a veteran, who has run into some heavy financial problems with squatters in her rental home. On her GoFundMe page, she’s committed to only using the cash that she needs, and anything extra will be donated to a veterans organization of her choosing.
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Ooh, I loved “1632” too. I’m loving seeing Eric Flint getting some more attention and love.
Kameron Hurley can’t write satire either. Sigh… Jim C. Hines, I miss you. At least, among anti-puppies, you have a sense of humor.
I think the puppies have jumped the shark.
Regarding Jo Walton’s post, I’ve been wondering something: Can the Hugo voting committee release all the nominating ballots with each voter’s identifiable information removed?
That seems like a good way to see exactly how much bloc voting took place and find out what would’ve been on the ballot in the absence of that tactic. These would be good things to know as voters decide what to do with their Hugo ballot this year.
It also would be data that could be run through any bloc voting-resistent systems that are proposed before they come up for discussion at the Business Meeting.
The prize today has to go to Michael Johnston, who writes:
——–Rachel Swirsky said: “Please, please, please, please stop with the “put down” rhetoric about the puppies, and the “you know what has to be done about rabid animals” and “take the dog out behind the barn.”
It’s vicious and horrible. The puppies and how they’ve acted toward me and others sucks. But good lord, let’s keep threats of violence, however unserious, out of it. Please.”
This, in particular, illustrates the difference between the puppies and their perceived enemies. In every “liberal” space I’m following, any threats or overly abusive rhetoric is met with calls for civility. In the SP/RP spaces, the rhetoric is largely about how we deserve horrible things done to us, which are often described in detail–and the moderators not only allow it, but indulge in it themselves.—–
So people in the anti puppy camp are dehumanizing those who disagree with them and asking for them to be put down. Someone says that the puppies suck but that people should not ask for them to be killed. And all this proves conclusively… that the anti-puppy camp is much better than the puppies…
?
?
?
?
?
Mike, unless you restrict these compendiums to posts that say something new and don’t simply rehash and paraphrase well known positions you may be stuck in the job forever.
Shouldn’t today’s compendium subtitle be “The MUTT in God’s Eye”?
Peace: Probably.
Brad T- ‘Well, total strangers may have an opportunity to reconsider at a later point. Especially if they meet me face-to-face.’
Between the ‘I don’t know if Scalzi likes women lol’ and this you’d think it was grade school not professionals.
That’s a nice holster, but I’m left handed.
Anyone have any details on this ‘GoFundMe’ for a veteran having problems with squatters? I’m not interested in bidding on the auction, but I wouldn’t mind pitching a little money that way.
Thanks.
Have to strongly disagree with Jo Lindsay Walton. It would be the height of unfairness to deny Goblin Emperor(or Ancillary Sword or Three-Body Problem) the award simply for having the bad luck to run the year a bunch of reactionary bullies zerg rushed the ballot.
The Puppies bunch have crapped over SF/F enough as it is. Why let them ruin even another thing that isn’t even connected to them?
“Well, total strangers may have an opportunity to reconsider at a later point. Especially if they meet me face-to-face.”
How very Internet Tough Guy. Almost as legitimate a threat as Vox Day’s LARP portrait.
Re: the “Season of the Red Wolf” post
What the hell did I just go read? That one is as twisty a rabbit hole as anyone could fall down.
@rcade: I don’t speak for the Hugo Administrators, but expect they’ll be releasing data exactly when and how it’s been done in years past. This keeps them impartial and also ensures they seem impartial.
Please note that the WSFS Business Meeting Chair is likely to request deferral of all Hugo motions to the Sunday Business Meeting, the day after the Hugo ceremony.
@Matt Y: For whatever it’s worth, there’s also a holster for us sinister people.
@John Fiala: Suggest you private-message siberious_ny on eBay to inquire about that GoFundMe for the veteran with the squatter problem.
@Peace Is My Middle Name: Best title of the day!
Rick Moen
[email protected]
Ryan H: Yeah, I think that one needs a lot of parsing. I’ve bookmarked it for reading once I get home, as they refer to other (longer?!) pieces on their site
It certainly seems like someone with a different perspective, and I think that’s worth a look see.
Rachel Swirsky is 200% correct. 100% correct because joking remarks about putting puppies down could be misinterpreted as threats. 100% again because those remarks can be cynically misrepresented as threats (I’ve already seen this done). You don’t load your enemy’s gun with bullets.
Peace Is My Middle Name: I am in so much pain right now. (In fact, I am in Pierson’s puppy-tears.)
snowcrash: don’t bother, it’s a loon with a bee in his bonnet about proving how the whole SF genre/community is anti-semitic and lacking the writing skills to keeping it short. You won’t get any more enlightened reading the whole post.
And, again, it should be noted that last year (SP2) saw the publicly stated wish that “I want LC (Larry Correia) and his fucking minions to die in a fire”, which is rather stronger than the rhetoric Swirsky cites. And is still, in all technicality, not a true threat, but is an easily accessible example of exactly that sort of rhetoric from the anti-Pups.
That said, if you ever find yourself (on any side of any issue) defending your statements with “technically, they aren’t a threat” (or defamatory, or whatever), you should strongly consider taking an extended break from whatever topic prompted them.
You won’t get any more enlightened reading the whole post.
I tried. I really did. But gah.
The thing is over 15,000 words long and it never gets any better. You think it might if you get through this one section, but no. The next bit is the same. And the one after that.
I made it to “Gary Oldman’s Playboy Interview” which is 11,500 words in (the first red text). And I finally asked myself, Wait, where the fuck am I? How did I get here? and quit.
@Craig (2): Who specifically wanted various people a year ago to die in a fire? Where and from whom?
It occurs to me that phrases like ‘the anti-Pups’ are readily definable to mean pretty much whatever the speaker wishes it to denote. It also occurs to me that ideological concepts don’t say things; individuals do. And, often, when what is claimed to have been said is batshit crazy, it turns out to have been either some unknown pseudonymous loon of unknown nature or imaginary. But please, feel welcome to be a few orders of magnitude more specific.
Rick Moen
[email protected]
While I agree with the bit in Dave Freer’s post that Cat Valente mostly writes fantasy even if she gussies it up with SF tropes, the rest of what he had to say? Well, I would have missed the crux of his argument(thanks for finding it Mike!), in the sloppy writing, bad comparisons and giant paragraphs.
I know he can write well and legibly, I have a few of his books. Why is he making my eyes bleed?
Eye-bleeders seem to be a theme of the day.
AG writes:
“So people in the anti puppy camp are dehumanizing those who disagree with them and asking for them to be put down.”
That is alas a side effect of picking an unpleasant metaphor. I don’t think anyone’s actually suggesting that VD should be taken out behind the chemical sheds and shot, but they chose to portray themselves as animals. Animals where that is the only appropriate response.
I don’t think engaging with their metaphor helps, but I’m not especially surprised that people might. And if you would rather people stopped treating you like rabid animals then perhaps trying not to hurt people just because you can, just because you’ve a leader who was snubbed at a party a decade back and thinks he’s entitled to revenge would also contribute to calming things down.
Wow. Just explaining the Red Wolf post got me into the mod queue. I guess I can understand, but I hope the post gets released.
@Rick Moen —“Who specifically wanted various people a year ago to die in a fire? Where and from whom?”—
Google is your friend, but if you can’t be bothered that was a SFWA writer called Beth Bernobich.
https://twitter.com/beth_bernobich/status/479411745363357696
Sad Puppies (Always Make Make Me Cry)
Who said “I want LC (Larry Correia) and his fucking minions to die in a fire”?
“that was a SFWA writer called Beth Bernobich.”
I’ve never heard of her. Neither, I am sure, have a great many people who oppose what the Puppies have done with their Slates.
I, and everyone else who opposes the Puppy Slates, are responsible for what she said… how, exactly???
@JJ:
That would be the guilt-by-association that the Puppies so hate when Victim vox Dumm’s reputation tarnishes their crusade, even as they gleefully lump all non-Puppies together as evil SJWs.
Rev Bob: “That would be the guilt-by-association that the Puppies so hate when Victim vox Dumm’s reputation tarnishes their crusade, even as they gleefully lump all non-Puppies together as evil SJWs.”
Yes, but isn’t the difference there that they chose to associate with VD — whereas I, and a great many other people, did not choose to associate with BB? (And indeed, if I’d seen her comment at the time she made it, I’d have called her out quite harshly on it. As others may well have done. But we’re not hearing about that.)
It’s deleted… She must be browsing this conversation, although I don’t know why she suddenly feels the need to remove it after almost a year (perhaps she can comment, after all everyone has the right to make mistakes and it would be to her credit if she would admit it and apologize). In the meantime you can still see the tweet here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qWl-LFBF9BYJ:https://twitter.com/beth_bernobich/status/479411745363357696+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es
Or here:
http://s29.postimg.org/ybrm2iq1j/Clipboard01.jpg
“I don’t think anyone’s actually suggesting that VD should be taken out behind the chemical sheds and shot.”
You’re wrong. There have been a few such suggestions in the last year, and even more death wishes as opposed to proper death threats. Just yesterday two folks were talking about “knocking me the fuck out” at Worldcon, for example. You have no shortage of not-nice people on your side too.
“And if you would rather people stopped treating you like rabid animals then perhaps trying not to hurt people just because you can, just because you’ve a leader who was snubbed at a party a decade back and thinks he’s entitled to revenge would also contribute to calming things down.”
You know, if the Making Light crew had merely “snubbed me at a party” ten years ago, this wouldn’t be happening. But they have been attacking me for 10 years. They were responsible for the whole SFWA charade just two years ago. They have coordinated libel campaigns – in one case, something that a Guardian editor even admitted to be libel – in the international press against me.
You don’t show any intellectual honesty by falsely characterizing their long and ongoing campaign against me as something that happened a decade ago. They started this, they continued this, and now I’m going to finish it. Don’t think for a second that anything is going to end this year, as we have merely begun to take the offensive.
As long as you continue to accept them as part of your community, you will be collateral damage. You have chosen to harbor monsters and the monster hunters will not spare you so long as you do so.
I really like Jo Walton’s idea. Since the nominations came out I have had a read a lot of good discussion on the non-puppy nominees and I would like to have a look at the complete ballot-that-would have-been.
Sorry Vox Day, old son, you’re the author of your own misery as any casual glance at your history of feuds, failures and fallouts makes clear.
You were the one that used official SFWA channels to put forth your racist remarks, that wasn’t something Making Light had to invent.
@JJ:
What is that, logic? You know better than to apply that to their behavior. No wonder you’re confused! 😉
To be fair, vox can name any number of negative consequences that have happened to him. And since he’s unable to comprehend the chance that he could ever have done something wrong, the world must seem to constantly visit unprovoked misfortunes upon him.
For example, the rest of us can observe that maybe the failure of the warmouse was down to really bad ergonomics, but to vox, it must seem like a brilliant idea was dragged down by those who plot against him in the shadows.
Should anyone but BB own the quote? No. Was it an intemperate remark in anger she regrets now? Quite likely. Should she own it now? Maybe not. People can be different people a year later or more, and regret things said in a bad moment. I try to do better now, but I’ve made more remarks I later regretted over the years than I can count, and I know how to count to 1024 on my fingers (which aren’t nimble enough for me to try to count in trinary).
And I’ll add: there are plenty of remarks to and fro by various Ilk, commenters, and main parties on all sides of this whole mess that I dislike too. That one was the most vicious one I could remember off the top of my head, is all, because it was pretty extreme. But by choosing just the one example, I look one-sided. That’s on me.
“As long as you continue to accept them as part of your community, you will be collateral damage. You have chosen to harbor monsters and the monster hunters will not spare you so long as you do so.”
Perhaps that’s yet another reason the SF/F community doesn’t welcome you. That’s one less monster to worry about.
Seriously dude, you don’t get to blame women for the Germanwings crash, question the humanity of N.K. Jeminsin, voice approval for the Taliban’s attempted murder of a woman seeking education, and be an all-around neo-fascist and then accuse others of being monsters for not being nice to you.
You don’t get to claim any sort of moral high ground.
XS: To be fair to Vox, his statement where you say he, as you put it “voice approval for the Taliban’s attempted murder of a woman seeking education”, was him attributing approval of that attack to someone else’s philosophy, as part of an attack on that person and their philosophy.
Vox is… I’ll say unique… but you don’t say “your philosophy is so morally bankrupt it would support X” when you believe X is awesome.
VD
“You don’t show any intellectual honesty by falsely characterizing their long and ongoing campaign against me as something that happened a decade ago.”
Sweetie, I’d not ever heard of Making Light before you explained what was driving you. I’m only basing this on what you said.
@Craig, apologies for that inaccuracy then and thanks for the correction. All of his “greatest hits” on FSTDT tend to bleed together into one awful morass after a while.
Absolutely no apologies for any offense caused to VD. His virulent hatred for people, me and my loved ones included, for simply existing lands him among the lowest of the low in my book.
Just a reader here who’s been following this debacle. I have to admit, it’s one of a relief to no longer have to give Brad Torgerson the benefit of the doubt for being the supposed moderate. Grown men don’t tauntingly insinuate that someone is gay unless they truly believe there is something innately offensive and demeaning about being gay.
The fact that he then doubled down on how horrible it was to imply someone was gay in his apology cemented what could have been a juvenile moment into actual homophobia for me. These people are just nasty pieces of work. (Shrug.)
@craig re: What Vox Day believes …
This ‘interview’ clarifies it for me …
http://www.johndbrown.com/what-vox-day-believes/
“How very Internet Tough Guy.”
I couldn’t tell if Torgersen was trying to be a tough guy with that remark, like another Puppies author I could name, or saying that if people met him they’d like him.
lest you miss it … here’s a relevant part
Brown
Okay, what’s the reason you feel women shouldn’t vote in a representative democracy? And do you think only certain types of males should vote?
Day
The reason women shouldn’t vote in a representative democracy is they are significantly inclined to vote for whomever they would rather f***.
yep sure sounds like he’s misunderstood.
here’s his “non”-answer to the issue in question
Brown
5. Referring to that same post, are you saying that genital mutilation and acid burnings are legitimate ways to treat women? Or are you saying that they are bad things, but that the societies that do such things have lower female promiscuity rates and higher fertility rates, and so it’s a small price to pay?
Day
You appear to have misread the post. PZ Myers claimed that there was no rational case to be made for the Taliban’s activities. I responded by demonstrating that the Taliban’s behavior is entirely rational, it is merely the consequence of different objectives and ruthlessness in pursuing them. But the mere fact that I am capable of observing a logical syllogism does not mean I share the assumptions involved or advocate the conclusion. Considering that the Taliban defeated the Soviets and appear to have outlasted NATO, I think it is remarkably stupid to dismiss them as irrational simply because they are willing to defend their way of life.
“But the mere fact that I am capable of observing a logical syllogism does not mean I share the assumptions involved or advocate the conclusion.”
but it also doesn’t mean you DON’T share those assumptions and/or advocate those conclusions. Would’ve been MY follow-up question …
It’s guilt by association whenever a person suggests No Awarding someone for being on one of the Puppy slates.
It’s collateral damage if the Puppies hurt or malign someone for daring to be a part of the mass group that disagrees with their actions.
Well at least that’s clear.
“And since he’s unable to comprehend the chance that he could ever have done something wrong, the world must seem to constantly visit unprovoked misfortunes upon him.”
This is totally false.
“For example, the rest of us can observe that maybe the failure of the warmouse was down to really bad ergonomics, but to vox, it must seem like a brilliant idea was dragged down by those who plot against him in the shadows.”
The Warmouse didn’t fail in any way. The Meta sold out its entire first production run and delivered on its performance specs. People still ask to buy them. We didn’t do a second run because we decided to focus on another project that was more lucrative and less complicated. We actually have an app that turns your smartphone into a Warmouse now, although we’re too busy to bother releasing it.
“Perhaps that’s yet another reason the SF/F community doesn’t welcome you.”
No, the SF/F community chose to very publicly reject me because I was a nationally syndicated op/ed writer. It would have done the same if Ann Coulter or Jonah Goldberg had published a few SF novels. Which was fine, I never wanted to join that community. I went to one con after being invited to do two panels at one, left after the panels were done, and never attended another one.
You all really need to stop crying about the fact that someone who doesn’t belong to your community and has been attacked by part of your community for over a decade doesn’t care if your community is destroyed. I don’t care about your institutions. I don’t care about your feelings. I don’t care about your gentlemen’s agreements. I don’t care if you have the feelbads or if you’re laughing at how adorable I am.
I’m simply going to do what I’m going to do, and so are my 346 Vile Faceless Minions. At this point, very little would change if I got bored and retired to a monastery tomorrow. The cultural war in science fiction is finally out in the open.
You haven’t destroyed Brad Torgersen by your attacks on him. You just turned him and dozens of people like him into me.
Oh boy! Matt Y has decided we need to get back into the same tired argument! I’m sure it’ll be just as riveting as every other time it has happened.
“I DON’T CARE, DAMMIT. WHY WON”T YOU SEE THAT?” screams Theodore Beale as he writes another long winded diatribe.
“You all really need to stop crying about the fact that someone who doesn’t belong to your community and has been attacked by part of your community for over a decade doesn’t care if your community is destroyed. I don’t care about your institutions. I don’t care about your feelings. I don’t care about your gentlemen’s agreements. I don’t care if you have the feelbads or if you’re laughing at how adorable I am.”
and yet by your continued presence here and elsewhere … it is glaringly obvious to us that you DO CARE … very much.
“Absolutely no apologies for any offense caused to VD.”
None taken. You can’t cause any offense to me. I don’t care.
“it also doesn’t mean you DON’T share those assumptions and/or advocate those conclusions. Would’ve been MY follow-up question …”
Yes, it does, for the obvious reason that I am not a utilitarian, an atheist, or a science fetishist. Read the entire exchange with PZ and that is perfectly clear. But since you need it clarified, I do neither share those assumptions nor advocate those conclusions. If I did, I would join DAESH.