aka The Puppy In God’s Eye
The Geiger counter pours out a relentless beat as the fallout rains down. The glow in today’s roundup comes from Kameron Hurley, Jo Lindsay Walton, Martin Wisse, Mark Nelson, The Weasel King, Joe Sherry, George R.R. Martin, Vox Day, Jim Butcher, Larry Correia, Lou Antonelli, T. C. McCarthy, Michael Johnston, Alexandra Erin, John Scalzi, Myke Cole, Brad Torgersen, Dave Freer, William Reichard, Michael Z. Williamson and less easily identified others. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Steve Moss and Laura Resnick.)
https://twitter.com/KameronHurley/status/595286661342175235
Kameron Hurley on Motherboard
“It’s About Ethics in Revolution” – May 4
Sorva took her seat on the other side of the table and waited. Both men could pass for Caucasian, as if that even bore mentioning, and sat in stuffed leather chairs. They wore extravagant codpieces that matched their suits, their members so cartoonishly large she could see the tips peeking up from the edge of the table. They both wore backwards caps.
It was the Director of Business Development, Marken, a lanky man with a sincere, pudgy face, who spoke first.
“Do you understand that when we choose the very best forward-looking brand messages each year for the Business Development Award ballot we open to our corporate writers, it must adhere to certain standards?”
Jo Lindsay Walton
“Quick Hugo thought” – May 4
Some folk out there seem to be prevaricating between (a) No-Awarding the Puppies selections or (b) No-Awarding every Puppy-dominated category, since it would be totally unfair to give “The Day the World Turned Upside Down” a Hugo by default, and pretty unfair to give e.g. The Goblin Emperor a Hugo with reduced competition.
I’m prevaricating too, and I know exactly what would let me make up my mind: releasing the full nomination data. That way you could see who else could have been on the ballot. Then the procedure’s simple: you construct a virtual ballot from a Puppy-free world (the kind of Stalinist disappearing we SJWs lurve) and make your choice. If your selection from the virtual ballot is on the real ballot as well, you vote for them above No Award; otherwise you No Award the whole category.
But we don’t have the full nomination data, right?
Martin Wisse on Wis[s]e Words
“No Award All The Things” – May 4
No Award All the Things!
Sorry Thomas Olde Heuvelt, you may actually get your Hugo this year, but since you’re the only candidate there on merit I felt uneasy voting for you by default. Better luck next year.
Mark Nelson on Heroines of Fantasy
“An Ever Changing Landscape” – May 4
Who pays when the real world intrudes on our imaginary landscape? If we start turning against each other and fall to squabbling over increasingly empty honors, how does that make us look? The truth is SFF needs to grow up. At times I have felt that our genre heading allowed us to adopt a mock superior tone; mostly as a response to being ignored by “real literature” and those who write criticism. We reveled in being aberrant. We rallied around our awards and celebrated our words in spite of the roaring silence from the wider world. We were a club with giants as members. We were privy to secret knowledge with informed, inclusionary eye-winks. We were the wandering Jews relegated to pulp fiction status, respected by none other than those lucky, lucky few who accepted the words and understood the latent power of the language of ideas. I wonder if the worst thing to ever happen to the genre was its popular success. The bigger “it” got, the more insistently came the calls for “it” to be taken seriously. And when film tech caught up with story tech, a marriage of commercial explosion formed. “Money, money changes everything…” And at present the affect has not been altogether positive. We were once the progressives. Now we look like idiots fighting over cheesecake while the Titanic’s deck begins to tilt. Wow. We have all but rendered the Hugo award useless. WorldCon cannot avoid the taint of controversy. The folks putting on the con deserve better.
The Weasel King
“theweaselking.livejournal.com/4673543” – May 4
The Locus Awards: A collection of skiffy fic untainted by ballot-stuffing assholes. Maybe not all to your taste, but reliably “dickface asslimousines did not shit on this ballot and then demand that you to eat it with a smile” Bonus sick burn: Connie Willis, awesome author[1] and perennial Hugo presenter, told the Hugos to fuck off because of the penisnose MRA anuscacti who hijacked their nomination process, and she’s presenting the Locus Awards.
Joe Sherry on Adventures in Reading
“Books Read: April 2015” – May 4
Discovery of the Month: If not for all of the fracas over the Hugo Awards, I may never have read Eric Flint’s 1632, which was a fairly enjoyable romp taking a group of twentieth century Americans back into seventeenth century Europe. I already have the next book, Ring of Fire, coming in from the library.
George R.R. Martin on Not A Blog
“LOCUS Nominations Announced” – May 4
While this year, admittedly, may be different due to the influence of the slate campaigns, over most of the past couple of decades the Locus Poll has traditionally had significantly more participants than the Hugo nomination process. Looking over the Locus list, one cannot help but think that this is probably what the Hugo ballot would have looked like, if the Puppies had not decided to game the system this year. Is it a better list or a worse one? Opinions may differ. The proof is in the reading.
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“Three centuries strong” – May 4
As Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil, we are pleased to declare that Malwyn, Whore-Mistress of the Spiked Six-Whip, has reported that she has completed the initial Branding of the Minions. She has now gone to take a well-deserved vacation in one of the more secluded lava pits in our Realm of Deepest Shadow, where she will no doubt be nursing her aching wrists and filing for overtime as well as worker’s compensation….
“How many of us are there?”
335 as of this morning.
@Dedwrekka I think we'll see what people think when the voting goes down. 🙂
— Jim Butcher (@longshotauthor) May 3, 2015
Larry Correia on Monster Hunter Nation
“Arthur Chu sucks at everything but Jeopardy” – May 4
Many regulars may remember Social Justice Warrior and Salon author Arthur Chu as the dipshit who declared Brad Torgersen’s 20 year interracial marriage and his biracial children as “shields” to hide Brad’s racism. He is one of the morons who blamed the Sad Puppies’ success on GamerGate.
Well, after a day of futile harassment, his team of idiots couldn’t even call in a bomb threat correctly.
T. C. McCarthy on YouTube
Lou Antonelli on This Way To Texas
Reach out and insult somebody – May 4
The official announcement of the nominations for the 2015 Hugo awards was made on April 4, so its been a month since then, Gee, time flies when you’re having fun.
One thing I’ve learned in the past month is that, thanks to the wonders of the latest technology and the internet, someone you don’t know and have never met, who may live thousands of miles away, can call you an “asshole” in public.
Michael Johnston in a comment on Whatever – May 4
Rachel Swirsky said: “Please, please, please, please stop with the “put down” rhetoric about the puppies, and the “you know what has to be done about rabid animals” and “take the dog out behind the barn.”
It’s vicious and horrible. The puppies and how they’ve acted toward me and others sucks. But good lord, let’s keep threats of violence, however unserious, out of it. Please.”
This, in particular, illustrates the difference between the puppies and their perceived enemies. In every “liberal” space I’m following, any threats or overly abusive rhetoric is met with calls for civility. In the SP/RP spaces, the rhetoric is largely about how we deserve horrible things done to us, which are often described in detail–and the moderators not only allow it, but indulge in it themselves.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“What! Your Sad Puppies Are Evolving” – May 4
This is a significant shift from Day for two reasons.
The first is that it signals what he thinks is most likely to happen. He rode high on the sweeping fantasy vision of himself as a Roman general leading a slavering horde of berserkers across the frozen river to assault the well-fortified position of his enemies (note to self: suggest history lessons for Vox), but he has just enough self-awareness to know that his strategy of lying and repeating the lie could come back and bite him if he tried to claim a sweeping victory where none existed, so he’s starting the spin now.
The second is that—as mentioned before—the endgame he now endorses is something the Sad Puppies have claimed to have wanted as their ultimate endgame.
Season of the Red Wolf
As with Torgersen, Correia can’t be bothered with addressing what Vox Day actually writes about blacks (the problem there – in the linked blog entry – is not the silly and ridiculous debate itself that Vox Day quotes from, it’s Vox Day’s own commentary on African-Americans in response to that debate that is eyebrow raising) and women alone. Of course as soon as one does acknowledged what Vox Day actually writes about blacks and women (never mind gays), then the only way to defend those indefensible prejudices, is by sinking into prejudice itself. Correia, like Torgersen, thus avoids that trap (defending the actual indefensible remarks/comments of Vox Day’s) by not ever quoting Vox Day’s most egregious commentary in this regard, and getting to grips with what he actually says. Correia, as with Torgersen, just doesn’t go anywhere near what Vox Day actually writes about blacks, women and gays for that matter. The easier to whitewash why Vox Day is considered persona non grata, namely for very good reasons. Yes it’s all so hypocritical, given the genre Left’s multiple prejudices (including of course their anti-Semitism that doesn’t bother anybody really, least of all genre Jewry) but this also misses the point.
John Scalzi on Whatever
“I’d Rather Like Men Than To Be a Sad Puppy” – May 4
If Brad Torgersen wants to insult me, insinuating I'm gay won't work. It's not an insult to be gay. Be an insult to be a Sad Puppy, however.
— John Scalzi (@scalzi) May 4, 2015
Myke Cole
“An open letter to Chief Warrant Officer Brad R. Torgersen” – May 4
Chief Warrant Officer Torgersen,
As you are no doubt aware, The Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell Repeal Act of 2010 removed barriers to homosexual members in the armed services, who may now serve openly and as equals.
You have long held the position that homosexuality is immoral behavior, and most recently made denigrating jokes regarding the orientation aimed at Mr. John Scalzi.
Your moral positions are your own, and I will not question them. However, I will remind you that you are a military officer and charged with the leadership of men and women of *all* walks of life, religions, creeds, sexual orientations, socio-cultural backgrounds and ethnicities. Every single one of these people has the right to believe that you will faithfully discharge your duties as an officer, not spend their lives carelessly, not make them endure unnecessary hardship, that you will care for them with compassion and dedication. On or off duty, you are *always* an officer.
Your repeated statements of your thoughts on homosexuality in public forums create the very reasonable apprehension among homosexual members of the service that you hold them in contempt and will not lead them to the utmost of your ability, will not look to their needs and concerns, and may place them at undue risk. That this is surely not your intention is irrelevant.
Further, your publically denigrating statements regarding Mr. Scalzi are base, undignified and show questionable judgment. You, Chief Warrant Officer Torgersen, are an officer, but no gentleman. Your positions are inconsistent with the values of the United States military, and its commitment to being a service that belongs to ALL Americans.
Our nation deserves better.
Respectfully,
Myke Cole
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“Never retreat, never apologize” – May 4
Does no one listen or learn? Never, EVER apologize to SJWs! Case in point: “The apology was worse than the initial attempted slur — it reinforced the fact that Torgersen thinks calling someone gay is a slur.” I repeat. NEVER APOLOGIZE TO SJWs. They will see it as fear, take the apology, and use it as a club with which to beat you. Never back down to them, never retreat, never apologize.Notice that this was all posted AFTER Torgersen apologized to Scalzi.
Brad R. Torgersen
“Keyboard rage” – May 4
Today, I am told Myke Cole is on about me. Since Myke doesn’t really know me from Adam, I have to shrug and take whatever he said with a grain of salt. But then, most people who’ve been on about me lately — because of Sad Puppies 3 — don’t know me, either. I may take it personally if a friend, a family member, or a respected senior I admire, has hard words for me. But total strangers spewing hard words?
Well, total strangers may have an opportunity to reconsider at a later point. Especially if they meet me face-to-face.
Cirsova
“Hugo Awards Best Fan Writer Category” – May 4
So, in this post, I will try to define what “Fan Writer” means and use it to justify my support of Jeffro Johnson in this year’s Best Fan Writer category.
On the face of it, a Fan Writer is just that. A fan who writes. They are a fan of something in the realm of fantasy and science fiction, and they write about fantasy and science fiction from the perspective of someone who is a fan to an audience of fellow or potential fans. A good fanwriter is like an evangelical minister of fantasy and science fiction; they give sermons to the believers to help them better understand the texts they know and love and they take the good word to those who have not heard it. You’ve been missing something in your life, and you don’t quite know what it is, but I think I can help you; here’s this story by Lord Dunsany!
Dave Freer on Mad Genius Club
“Research, Hard-SF, stats and passing small elephants” – May 4
John Scalzi kindly provided us via his friend Jason Sanford a near text-book perfect example of GIGO. “Recently author John Ringo (in a Facebook post previously available to the public but since made private) asserted that every science fiction house has seen a continuous drop in sales since the 1970s — with the exception of Baen (his publisher), which has only seen an increase across the board. This argument was refuted by author Jason Sanford, who mined through the last couple of years of bestseller lists (Locus lists specifically, which generate data by polling SF/F specialty bookstores) and noted that out of 25 available bestselling slots across several formats in every monthly edition of Locus magazine, Baen captures either one or none of the slots every month — therefore the argument that Baen is at the top of the sales heap is not borne out by the actual, verifiable bestseller data.” As I said: first you need to understand what you’re sampling. For example, if you set up a pollster at a Democratic convention, at 10 pm, in a site just between the bar and the entry to the Men’s urinals… even if he asks every person passing him on the way in, you’re not going to get a very good analysis of what Americans think of a subject. Or what women think of the subject. What you will get is middling bad sample of what mildly pissed male Democratic Party conference attendees think. Middling bad, because many of the passers will be hurry to go and pass some water first. It’s vital to understand what you’re sampling – or what you’re not. Let’s just deconstruct the one above. In theory Sanford was attempting to statistically prove John Ringo’s assertion wrong. What he proved was nothing of the kind (Ringo may be right or wrong, but Sanford failed completely). What he proved was that on the Locus bestseller list, (the equivalent of the Democratic Party convention and the route between the bar and the gentleman’s convenience) that Baen was not popular. That is verifiable. The rest is wishful thinking, which may be true or false. Firstly ‘Bestseller’ does not equal sales numbers. A long tail – which Baen does demonstrably have, can outsell ‘bestseller’ and five solid sellers outsell one bestseller and four duds. Secondly, independent bookstores who self-select by accepting polling, selected by a pollster (Locus) with a well-established bias are not remotely representative of book sales in general, or representative of the choices book buyers have. Thirdly, it is perfectly possible to ‘capture’ no bestseller slots at all, even in a worthwhile sample (which Locus polling isn’t) and STILL be the one house that is actually growing. It depends what you’re growing from – which of course this does not measure and cannot.
Short of actual book sales numbers, and data on advances – which we’ll never see, staffing is probably the best clue. I know several authors at other houses whose editors have left, and quite a lot of other staff at publishers who’ve been let go. Over the last few years, the number of signatures on my Baen Christmas card have gone up year on year.
William Reichard
“Silent Punning (aka ‘The Hijacker’s Guide to the Galaxy’”) – May 4
Having run through quite a few sci-fi themed puns regarding the Hugo Award debacle, the community is apparently moving on to Westerns (e.g., “A Fistful of Puppies“).
I have to say, this is my favorite part of online warfare–when the rest of the community acknowledges the madness of it all and just starts having fun again. Because there should be some kind of silver lining in this.
Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand
https://twitter.com/mzmadmike/status/595265324263546881
syberious _ny on “Ebay: Sad Puppy 1911 Holster Right Hand”
Here’s the scoop…I designed this holster (and its companion holster in Left Hand configuration) because of the whole Sad Puppy / Hugo Award kerfuffle. My original thought was to perhaps raffle them off to raise money for a veterans organization. But, online raffles in the state of Tennessee (where I live and have my business) are tightly regulated, and it would have cost more to run a raffle than what the raffle could potentially bring in.
So, I’m listing these here on FleaBay, with the proceeds going directly to help a friend who is a veteran, who has run into some heavy financial problems with squatters in her rental home. On her GoFundMe page, she’s committed to only using the cash that she needs, and anything extra will be donated to a veterans organization of her choosing.
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“unless Amazon buys us”
Uh huh… Yes, they’re known for that – bit like Microsoft in the 1990s was known for buying small companies right after they finished Due Diligence and… oh, right…
What actually interests me is you appear to have the consistency and attention span of my pet lab… SQUIRREL!
Alex – I’m with you there but that might just because I’m biased in that I like the feel of a paper book more than an eBook. There’s something too sterile about it even though it’s loads more convenient.
@Rick Moen: If “the WSFS Business Meeting Chair is likely to request deferral of all Hugo motions to the Sunday Business Meeting, the day after the Hugo ceremony,” I’m surprised to hear that. This year, the business meeting is being chaired by Kevin Standlee. I regularly read his LiveJournal, where he has written about the business meeting recently, but he hasn’t written anything in the last month about wanting to defer Hugo-related motions to the Sunday business meeting.
“His musical career was one failure the world would be better off without.”
I can’t say that. I found out recently that Day’s band was Psykosonik, one of the bands that appears on More Mortal Kombat. That album is techno greatness and it starts with his band’s “It Has Begun.” I’ve must have listened to that song 1,000 times. If I could, I’d time-travel to 1996 and bloc vote the Hugos to make it Best Related Work.
Going by the Billboard history (http://www.billboard.com/artist/354578/psykosonik/chart), Discogs (http://www.discogs.com/artist/11607-Psykosonik), and Wikipedia it seems legit for VD to claim quite a bit of this. It *looks* like “Panik Kontrol” and “It Has Begun” both post-date his time with the band. “Unlearn” (a mix of which was used on the Mortal Kombat soundtrack) and the X-Kaliber 2097 soundtrack and CyClones soundtrack come in the middle of it.
So if you wanted to be a pedant, you could *maybe* complain that VD shouldn’t claim credit for a Bungie soundtrack, or should only get credit for three -not four- billboard hits. But why be a jerk? His ability to write some good tunes shouldn’t really cut any ice for his other views.
Aw hell I loved the Mortal Kombat soundtrack. I’m not a techno fan but I remember liking Unlearn. KMFDM, Fear Factory, etc. Now I want to dig that out and listen to it, but I’m pretty sure I’ve got it on cassette tape and I don’t think I have a cassette tape player anymore.
You made the claim you will disrupt the digital marketplace. You haven’t. If you do, you can demand an admission that I was wrong, and I will provide one.
You’re absolutely right. I haven’t yet. We haven’t released anything yet. And it’s possibly that we might fail. But if you weren’t so desperately wedded to your narrative that I am a total failure in everything I do, you’d pay attention to the most important thing I pointed out.
It is going to happen whether I’m the one to benefit most from it or not. I was right about 3D graphics in games even though I only made a few million from it rather than a few billion like Jensen. And I am correct about this too, whether I make a single penny from it or not.
“You were a member of the band from 1992-1994. Much of what you claim credit for here happened in 1995 or later.”
You do understand things get recorded before they get released, right? The only CD with which I had no involvement was the unreleased Spiritual Machine, which Wax Trax rejected.
I mean, you don’t seriously think Paul or Dan wrote lyrics that referenced Susan Cooper, do you? Mike and I just didn’t bother putting our names on Unlearn because we didn’t like the ambient direction Dan was taking it and we were planning to leave and focus on games. But we were certainly involved in the creation of it.
Hell, I wrote Sunyata with Paul 11 years before he released it with Basic Pleasure Model.
“… i have seen not a one of you actually admit to understanding what he actually said.”
Day, like John C. Wright, likes to make extreme statements and then claim that he was misinterpreted when he’s called out.
When I read him rationalizing a position in which “the Taliban’s attempt to silence her was perfectly rational and scientifically justifiable,” I don’t need to dig deeper. It’s a point of view so far outside the realm of decency that it doesn’t deserve a careful read. I see a person trying to provide intellectual cover for a terrorist group that boarded a school bus and shot a 14-year-old girl in the head because she advocated education for girls.
Even if it’s just a rhetorical game he’s playing in pursuit of some other point, it’s as tasteless as weighing the positives of the Boston Marathon bombing from the Tsarnaev’s perspective. Life’s too short to dredge the bottom of the political blogger swamp.
‘I’m here so that neutral parties can clearly see the difference between me and you,’
Between Torgerson’s jab at Scalzi and you and Torgerson’s behaviour here:
https://file770.com/?p=22293 where you pretended Juliette Wade wasn’t commenting and if she was commenting she was lying, they’ll get a good look at that difference.
I had nothing to do with Panik Kontrol, although ironically that was somewhat the result of Paul and Dan trying to get back to the sound that I wanted to do, and which they’d abandoned for ambient. I consider that song more “mine” than most of the songs on Unlearn to which I actually contributed.
Most of the game music projects were deals I set up. Power of 7 was my idea, although Kurt from InSoc never actually recorded anything for it. The 7 referred to the seven individuals involved, four Psykosonik guys, Kurt Harland from InSoc, the guy who produced Prince’s Diamond and Pearls album, and another producer.
‘that the anti-puppy camp is much better than the puppies…’
…is illustrated by literally every comment Theodore Beale makes here.
Matt, don’t get me wrong. My Kindle is on me at all times. The ability to carry around one device with my current books and my TBR pile, read it in any light condition, and immediately order any book on whim, is just too much for me.
I mean, I love deadtree. I do. I have the bookshelves to prove it. But with most of my reading being done digitally, especially with the recent addition of a nice tablet to read comics on… the bookshelf is becoming a trophy case. ARCs, LEs, signed copies, emotionally significant stuff, things not on digits.
AG wrote: Google is your friend, but if you can’t be bothered that was a SFWA writer called Beth Bernobich.
https://twitter.com/beth_bernobich/status/479411745363357696
I get ‘that page does not exist’ at said link, FWIW. The writer’s Twitter stream does exist, of course, and I’m plowing backwards through it to attempt to find whatever you’re talking about. Hmm, I get to April 21st, and Twitter isn’t showing me any earlier history.
So, I have no idea exactly what this person said, why, and what it supposedly has to do with anyone else. I do thank you for attempting to cite an example of some person saying that he or she wanted Larry Correia and unspecified minions to die in a fire. That would have been the first question of two. The second one would have been who specifically ‘defended’ it as ‘not technically a threat’?
For the record, I’m not actually on board with stating that one wishes people would die in a fire, nor making excuses for those who do. Mind you, I am very much aboard with Clarence Darrow’s quotation that ‘I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.’ But I’ve not so far wished Larry personally even a stubbed toe, and quite enjoyed attending some of his panels at the SLC Westercon.
Rick Moen
[email protected]
“What actually interests me is you appear to have the consistency and attention span of my pet lab… SQUIRREL!”
See, now that may be the first thing you’ve said about me that is actually true. Why do you think I told you that if everyone just accepted the fait accompli and relaxed, it would be over soon enough? I get bored very quickly once I figure out how to do something.
But then you decided to turn it into a war. And that’s the one thing that always holds my interest for extended periods of time.
War?
Just because you play some wargames, and some people said some things that hurt your feelings doesn’t mean you know shit about war. I wish you had gone through bootcamp. Lord knows it might have made you a better person.
Alex – Yeah, my bookshelf is becoming more of a trophy case as well so I know how that feels. Reading comics on a tablet is so nice as well that I wonder if they’ve experienced an increase in sales just from ease of access. At least for that medium I actually prefer the electronic version.
Her tweet was a reply to someone that read, “I want LC and his fucking minions to die in a fire.”
It’s quite obviously hyperbole, but still a tasteless and offensive remark she should apologize for if she hasn’t already.
Matt, it definitely hold true for me. Even though there is an Army base, and a major college town within ten miles of one another, there isn’t a comic book store anywhere near here. Even so, the amount of money I’ve spent on comics in the last year has to rival any year I’ve ever done so, just because I have the access and the selection.
@Rick Moen: she deleted the tweet a few hours ago. As I said a few posts below the one you read:
It’s deleted… She must be browsing this conversation, although I don’t know why she suddenly feels the need to remove it after almost a year (perhaps she can comment, after all everyone has the right to make mistakes and it would be to her credit if she would admit it and apologize). In the meantime you can still see the tweet here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qWl-LFBF9BYJ:https://twitter.com/beth_bernobich/status/479411745363357696+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es
Or here:
http://s29.postimg.org/ybrm2iq1j/Clipboard01.jpg
Moderator comment: Closing comments overnight works better on a blog that doesn’t have a month’s worth of daily posts about a controversy.
Unfortunately, before I was able to review comments this morning, a couple of you were longing for the good old days of…last weekend?… when I found it necessary to shut down the physical threats. Those recent examples are now deleted.
Mike: Is it possible with your blog software to publish a page of the last 25-50 comments on all discussions? It’s tough to jump around to old posts and see if people kept posting replies.
Jim Butcher made another tentative toe-dip into the Hugos controversy on Twitter.
He was asked, “Where do you stand on the “Sad Puppies” group and their attempt to influence the Hugo awards nominations this year?”
He replied, “I think we’ll see what people think when the voting goes down. :)”
His questioner replied, “I feel shitty. You deserve to win, but in a fair and open competition, not because a hate group stacked the vote.”
Cat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viYuzuJom1k
Oh, yes, offering to let someone borrow a gun is not precisely the same as threatening with a gun. Just put that clip on continuous replay and substitute Cat for Jane in perpetuity.
XS: Theodore Beale is quite correct that the ‘a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay’ quotation gets continually misrepresented by critics who either cannot be bothered to understand what he said or are unable. Theo was posting a critique of science and anti-religion blogger PZ Myers’s inability to reason coherently, mocking the utilitarian metric, which Theo avers is used by most atheists, as a measure of social benefit and stating conclusions utilitarianism ought to arrive at.
I didn’t follow his exchange with PZ in detail, mostly because I have no use for PZ, who IMO is a noxious blowhard and in no way speaks for unreligious persons such as yr. present correspondent (please). But correctly interpreting Theo’s oft-cited clause requires no more effort than actually bothering to understand the surrounding two-sentence paragraph. Not frakking brain-surgery, people. Like, seriously, you couldn’t bother to accurately parse two sentences? And you claim to be SFF readers and writers?
The late Michael Crichton in Rising Sun has the protagonist refer to a prevailing Japanese view that Americans tend to spend far too much time deciding whether they like reality and not enough time understanding it first. I often think the gentleman has a point, and that pontificating before bothering to get the facts is a bad habit that my countrymen should rid themselves of. (Just to make clear that I’m not hurling aspersions across the pond, I am American.)
Rick Moen
[email protected]
AG: Well, yeah, a certain Beth Bernobich needs to grow up.
Some people never do. There have always been raging assholes in science fiction and fantasy, and presumably always will be.
> There have always been raging assholes in science fiction and fantasy, and presumably always will be.
It’s somewhat difficult to imagine any human endeavor in which that isn’t so. Some humans are raging assholes, and that means that it’s pretty much true that raging assholes will be everywhere.
rcade: I have now set “Recent Comments” on the front page to list the last 20 in all discussions.
So far as I know, I can’t give readers the option to display all comments in the order they are submitted the way it’s done on my WordPress dashboard.
Damn. Thanks Mike!
@Joshua: I thought I heard Kevin at least discussing that idea, but possibly not. If not, I hereby suggest it. ;->
” Not frakking brain-surgery, people. Like, seriously, you couldn’t bother to accurately parse two sentences? And you claim to be SFF readers and writers?”
SJWs always lie. That’s why I think it’s funny when they try to prove how terrible I am by quoting me. They can’t ever do it successfully, they always have to take it out of context, and usually, leave off half the sentence.
Even the infamous “half-savage” quote about NK Jemisin on Wikipedia is an ungrammatical sentence fragment. Because if they actually quote the entire sentence, it won’t serve their narrative.
And then they insist that they know what I was saying better than I do. Idiots.
“I have now set ‘Recent Comments’ on the front page to list the last 20 in all discussions.”
Thanks!
“Even the infamous “half-savage” quote about NK Jemisin on Wikipedia is an ungrammatical sentence fragment. Because if they actually quote the entire sentence, it won’t serve their narrative.”
Well, heck, let’s just put the quote out there:
“Being an educated, but ignorant half-savage, with little more understanding of what it took to build a new literature by “a bunch of beardy old middle-class middle-American guys” than an illiterate Igbotu tribesman has of how to build a jet engine, Jemisin clearly does not understand that her dishonest call for “reconciliation” and even more diversity within SF/F is tantamount to a call for its decline into irrelevance.”
Yep, sounds a lot better with all of that context around it. I’m not sure what narrative it’s expected to serve, but it certainly fits the one in which VD is racist.
Theo wrote: I’m here to help people choose their side.
Thank you. I choose the World Science Fiction Society.
This does not require me to participate in any particular ideological warfare, let alone participate in identarian antics, which nonetheless have never spoken for me in any way. If I’ve been slow to disavow ideological ranters and character assassins in SFF it’s mostly because I wanted to stay far away from the crazy sauce. When I encounter it in the future, I’ll try to make the effort to get out the hip-waders rather than just keeping my distance.
rcade When I read him rationalizing a position in which “the Taliban’s attempt to silence her was perfectly rational and scientifically justifiable,” I don’t need to dig deeper.
No, of course you don’t need to dig deeper . . . unless you actually want to understand what was said. If you don’t understand it, you can’t successfully refute it.
And like I said, i understood the intent and context of the message first pass through, and I’m not even a professional scribbler like many here. If you react only to certain words (” triggers”), then you aren’t actually debating, you are mud-slinging.
By the way, alll progress depends on those people who did ‘dig deeper’. And sometime it depends on people asking uncomfortable questions.
Whoa! “Recent Comments” expanded to twenty. Thank you, Mike Glyer.
Squirrel!
Oh, sorry, you said something 🙂
More seriously, war? Uh huh. I’m honestly not sure whom you’re fighting at this stage but I strongly suspect given what you’ve said you’ll get bored before they do.
After all, they only have to vote Rabid’s under No Award once a year, you actually have to do something annually. Then there’s stuff like Locus making your claims look completely nutso.
Anyway, back to work for me. Ciao.
@AG
When one person elects to recommend one story, no, they’re not choosing that author to represent them.
By contrast, when a small group of people get together to choose stories to present as a coordinated slate in a campaign that has been running for three years coordinated across several major author web presences and a publisher web presence and promoted on blogs that have to do with political news and unrelated hobbies in addition to science fiction and fantasy blogs in order to bring in large groups of people to nominate in lock-step?
Yes, of course at that point some people can be said to be leaders and some followers, and of course the leaders are choosing slate options to represent them and their cause.
“No, of course you don’t need to dig deeper . . . unless you actually want to understand what was said.”
I understand as much as I care to know about Day’s political pontificating.
Are you telling us that there are no statements a blogger could write that are so offensive or extreme you hit the Back button and move on with your life? That’s hard to believe. It’s like claiming that when you’re eating at a restaurant you always clean off your plate no matter how bad the food is.
“Yep, sounds a lot better with all of that context around it. I’m not sure what narrative it’s expected to serve, but it certainly fits the one in which VD is racist.”
Not at all. It’s absolutely crazy to expect one group of people to develop in a vastly shorter period of time than it took every other group of people on the planet to accomplish the same thing. Technology doesn’t help in the process either, not unless you’re going to take an appallingly eugenic approach.
That’s the precise opposite of racism. That’s operating on the assumption that human beings are essentially similar, despite the observable differences in average capabilities. And the only narrative it serves is the truth.
VD,
“You all really need to stop crying about the fact that someone who doesn’t belong to your community and has been attacked by part of your community for over a decade doesn’t care if your community is destroyed”
But you do belong. Isn’t this why all this mess started? Because you are part of that community but felt that you are not part enough (or whatever).
Now – if you are saying that you are not part of SF/F fandom, then come out and say so. And then the conversation will be different – not why parts of the community chose to do what they did but why people that are not even part of the community decided to hijack an award that belongs to the community.
You simply cannot have it both ways. You are either part of the fandom or you are not. There is no middle ground that allows you to change your place every second sentence.
rcade Are you telling us that there are no statements a blogger could write that are so offensive or extreme you hit the Back button and move on with your life?
Usually it’s boredom that makes me move on, rather than ‘offensive or extreme’ statements. I don’t get triggered by words. I kind of operate on the principle that it’s better to know what the whackos are saying, which is why I also don’t agree with suppressing hate speech. When you suppress it, it doesn’t go away, just underground.
This is government suppression I’m referring to by the way, any individual e.g. a blog owner is of course free to publish/censor comments as they see fit. What they choose to censor, and how, is just more evidence to sway a neutral to one side or the other.
For example, the practice of ‘disemvowelling’ is the silliest thing I’ve seen lately put forward in discussion by supposed adults. It’s not clever, it just appears childish, or perhaps churlish might be the better word. You may as well put up a flag saying ‘Í got nuthin’, so bye-bye AEIOU and sometime Y’
On the other hand, from what I’ve observed Mr. Glyer he seems to go out of his way to be fair; certainly I’ve enjoyed the discussions (and the occasional history lesson) I’ve read here. He chose to flat-out get rid of commments that appeared to offer violence, and explained why. That is a straight-up, grown-up approach.
That’s also why I still have respect for Connie Willis (yes, I’ve read her too, and Gerrold); she straight-up said ‘I despise you, I’m outta here’. I’ll take that over petty bickering, and hand-wringing, and concern-trolling.
‘Not at all. It’s absolutely crazy to expect one group of people to develop in a vastly shorter period of time than it took every other group of people on the planet to accomplish the same thing.’
I’m sorry, are you talking about Americans? Or what?
Nigel: “I’m sorry, are you talking about Americans?”
Probably not. Everybody knows the Pilgrims had the help of people who’d already been here for 15,000 years. Good thing, or they’d have starved to death!
” It’s absolutely crazy to expect one group of people to develop in a vastly shorter period of time than it took every other group of people on the planet to accomplish the same thing”
But ALL people on Earth went through evolution and development at roughly the same time. Ever heard of different paths leading to the same place? The fact that development did not happen the same way somewhere does not mean that it did not happen at all. Unless if you are saying that people appeared (not migrated but appeared – because with migration, the development just continues) somewhere so much later that their development started later? Maybe came from Mars or somewhere outside of the galaxy?
“For example, the practice of ‘disemvowelling’ is the silliest thing I’ve seen lately put forward in discussion by supposed adults.”
Sounds like you’re another person nursing a beef against the Nielsen Haydens, which makes me question whether you were ever a “former neutral.” Day keeps proclaiming he’s converting people to his side and here you pop up, claiming you’re a convert, defending his political rhetoric and even getting a bg p yr btt abt Mkng Lght.
VD protests too much … of course he’s racist.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism?s=t
Racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
…. check
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
…. check
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. … the only real question here
the only real question here and one in which I reserve judgement. I suspect that he fits this definition as well but have no objective proof. So … no call .. yet.
2 out of 3 … and probably the third as well. So yep. Racist.
so VD you’re making the wrong argument. You SHOULD be arguing that being racist is ok. That’s it’s the only logical scientific position to take. Why aren’t you?
‘Probably not’
But Jemsin is American, and he’s talking about her ‘group of people,’ so he apparently thinks Americans are a bunch of ‘half savages’ that shouldn’t be allowed into sci fi because they’ll bring about its decline. Sorry there, Beale! That horse door has bolted from the burning barn!
“Why aren’t you?”
Because SJWs always lie.
The answer to point (1) is false. Which necessarily renders point (2) false. And point (3) is false too.
Joshua:
I’ve been considering recommending it, and I’ve said so in a few places. Here’s the problem as I see it: I would really prefer that the Business Meeting not pass a bunch of overlapping and conflicting proposals, because it dumps a parliamentary mess into the lap of my successor. However, many people seem to be saying that “we need to pass every possible change and let next year’s meeting sort them all out, because we won’t know the details of the Hugo Award voting and be able to react to it until after the Hugo Ceremony.” Well, the solution to that would be to not actually vote upon the various proposals until the Sunday meeting, which will be the morning after the Hugo Ceremony, after which time people will have had a chance to digest some of the statistics and make an informed decision.
Ultimately, it’s up to the Business Meeting to decide if they want to postpone consideration of any proposal until a hypothetical Sunday meeting. I think the Preliminary Business Meeting could vote to do this, or any of the first two Main Business Meetings. In effect, they would be setting what tennis tournaments call “not before” scheduling, i.e. “Item 3.2 will not be considered before Date/Time X.” Alternatively, any of the meetings could debate any proposal but postpone the vote (and incidentally reset the proposal’s debate clock) to Day 5.
Oh, poor Teddy. Too bad the bulk of your work shows that point (1) is very much in line with your beliefs.