aka Dr. Sad Puppy: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Slate
John C. Wright, Vox Day, Eric Flint, Celia Hayes, Tom Knighton, John Scalzi, Tom Doherty, Irene Gallo, D. Jason Fleming, David Gerrold, Cedar Sanderson, Dave Freer, Adam Lawson, Peter Grant, Chris Gerrib, Joe Vasicek, Abigail Nussbaum, Martin Lewis, Lis Carey, Lyda Morehouse, Pluviann, and Alexandra Erin. (Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editors of the day Nigel and Dex.)
Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.
— Tor Books (Check Mark) (@torbooks) June 8, 2015
John C. Wright
“Irene Gallo” – June 8
I had no idea she had this opinion of me, or so much contempt for the books she adorned so skillfully.
My father in law, may he rest in peace, was a Jew serving in the US Military during World War Two in the European Theater. In fact, he won a Purple Heart medal for wounds to his hands he received while liberating a Nazi death camp. His unit was standing about idly, troopers on one side of the wall, ragged prisoners on the other, waiting for the carpenter to arrive with tools to tear down the planks, but in a fury of impatience he did it with his bare hands, like a superman. He turned down the award, thinking others whose wounds were from the enemy deserved it, not he. That is the kind of man he was, an odd mixture of towering ego and meek humility.
Irene Gallo should have been penning me polite notes of congratulation on receiving an historically unprecedented number of awards for the prestigious Hugo Award, and rejoicing that any victory for me or for Mr Anderson (who would be receiving his first ever Hugo for his life’s work producing over 50 bestsellers) would reflect well on our main publisher whom we both loyally serve, Tor Books.
Instead, Irene Gallo just said I was a member of the barbaric and racist National Socialist totalitarian political movement that my family fought, suffered, and shed blood to expunge from the earth.
What is the honorable thing for me to do, dearest readers?
I am not asking what is in my short term fiscal interest, which is not my sole, nor even my primary, motive.
More to the point, what is the honorable thing for you to do?
https://twitter.com/voxday/status/607832435812892672
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“SF war to the knife” – June 8
Let them threaten. What are they going to do, continue to not buy books from Castalia House, from Baen, and from independents? Are they going to keep not reading what they repeatedly proclaim to be terribly written bad-to-reprehensible works without ever having read them? What are they going to do, have the Board vote me out of SFWA again? Are they going to continue not giving Nebulas to John Wright, and Sarah Hoyt, and Larry Correia, and Brad Torgersen? The reality is that we have the decisive advantage here because we have long supported them…..
Back in April, Larry Correia and I, among others, encouraged everyone to leave Tor Books out of it. We made it clear that our problems were with certain individuals at Tor, not the organization itself. But as Peter Grant points out, Irene Gallo’s comments, to say nothing of Moshe Feder’s and John Scalzi’s (now that the organization has bet its future on him, Scalzi is relevant in this regard), appear to indicate that we were wrong and our problem is with the organization as it is presently comprised after all.
Eric Flint
“IN DEFENSE OF THE SAD PUPPIES” – June 8
Words matter—something you’d expect any professional in publishing to understand, even if their specialty is art work. Calling someone “extreme right-wing” when you immediately tie that to “neo-nazi” is disingenuous at best. The transparently obvious purpose is to blend “extreme right-wing” with “neo-nazi” in the minds of the readers. The problem is that terms like “extreme” and “right-wing” are inherently vague and the one term in the sentence that is not vague—“neo-nazi”—is wildly inappropriate.
It’s not even appropriate applied to the Rabid Puppies. The two most prominent figures in that group are Theodore Beale (“Vox Day”) and the author John C. Wright. I have been severely critical of Wright and will continue to be, but I have seen no evidence that he either belongs to, is affiliated with, or even has any significant relations with any member of a neo-Nazi organization. The situation with Beale is perhaps murkier, because some of his statements certainly resonate with those made by neo-Nazis. But I have seen no concrete evidence in his case either that would support the charge of being a “neo-nazi.”
And applying the term to the Sad Puppies is simply slander, pure and simple. I have no objection to calling either Brad Torgersen or Larry Correia “right wing,” because they are—and say as much themselves. If you want to add the term “extreme” because it makes you feel better, so be it. For whatever it’s worth, coming from someone who has seen extreme right-wingers a lot more up-close and personally than I suspect Irene Gallo ever has, I think applying the adjective to either Brad Torgersen or Larry Correia is not accurate. If we can descend into the real world, for a moment, what both men are is political conservatives with a libertarian slant who are also devout Mormons. (I mention their religion simply because, as with most religious people, it does influence their political views at least to some degree.)
But leaving aside the issue of “extreme,” suggesting that either of them is a “neo-nazi” or anything remotely close is just disgusting. And don’t anyone bother protesting that Gallo didn’t actually make that charge directly since she did, after all, distinguish between “extreme right wing” and “neo-nazi.”
Yes, I know she did—with the clear intent of smearing the two together. This is the sort of rhetorical device that Theodore Beale loves to use also, when he insists he doesn’t “advocate” shooting girls in the head for wanting to get an education, he just points out that, empirically and scientifically speaking, it’s “rational” for the Taliban to do so.
Celia Hayes
“Still Not Finished With Sad Puppies” – June 8
Oh, yes – outraged science fiction fans had had fun with this resulting thread. And who can blame them? Four sentences which manage to be packed full of misrepresentation and a couple of outright lies; the voicing of similar calumnies had to be walked back by no less than Entertainment Weekly when the whole Sad Puppies thing first reached a frothing boil earlier this year. Now we see a manager of some note at Tor rubbishing a couple of their own authors, and a good stretch of the reading public and a number of book bloggers … which I confidently predict will not turn out well. I have not exhaustively researched the whole matter, but tracked it through According to Hoyt and the Mad Genius Club, where there are occasional comments about anti-Sad/Rabid Puppy vitriol flung about in various fora. I would have opined that Ms. Gallo’s pronouncement probably isn’t worst of them, but it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, coming as it does from an employee very high up in Tor management. People of a mild-to-seriously conservative or libertarian bent, are just sick and tired of being venomously painted as – in Ms. Gallo’s words – “right-wing to neo-nazi” and as “unrepentantly racist, misogynist and homophobic,” when they are anything but that.
Honestly, @torbooks has essentially said their staff can insult #SadPuppies at will, and nothing will be done. Pathetic.
— Tom Knighton (@TheTomKnighton) June 8, 2015
A brief history of Sad Puppies, or, how a covetous tantrum became a entitled mob. http://t.co/cwgKFbq1DQ
— John Scalzi (@scalzi) June 8, 2015
Tom Doherty on Tor.com
“A Message from Tom Doherty to Our Readers and Authors” – June 8
Last month, Irene Gallo, a member of Tor’s staff, posted comments about two groups of science fiction writers, Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies, and about the quality of some of the 2015 Hugo Award nominees, on her personal Facebook page. Ms. Gallo is identified on her page as working for Tor. She did not make it clear that her comments were hers alone. They do not reflect Tor’s views or mine. She has since clarified that her personal views are just that and apologized to anyone her comments may have hurt or offended…..
Tor employees, including Ms. Gallo, have been reminded that they are required to clarify when they are speaking for Tor and when they are speaking for themselves. We apologize for any confusion Ms. Gallo’s comments may have caused. Let me reiterate: the views expressed by Ms. Gallo are not those of Tor as an organization and are not my own views. Rest assured, Tor remains committed to bringing readers the finest in science fiction – on a broad range of topics, from a broad range of authors.
Irene Gallo commented on her May 11 Facebook post:
About my Sad/Rabid Puppies comments: They were solely mine. This is my personal page; I do not speak on behalf of Tor Books or Tor.com. I realize I painted too broad a brush and hurt some individuals, some of whom are published by Tor Books and some of whom are Hugo Award winners. I apologize to anyone hurt by my comments.
Vox Day in email – June 8
A good first attempt by Mr. Doherty, but it’s not even a windbreak.
Gallo is so clueless she didn’t even properly apologize, let alone grovel and plead for her job.
Too late now.
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“An unapology, unaccepted” – June 8
I don’t know about the rest of the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies she called right-wing extremists and neo-nazis, or the authors she described as writing “bad-to-reprehensible works”, or everyone she called “unrepentantly racist, misogynist, and homophobic”, but as for me, I’m not hurt. So why is she apologizing for nonexistent events she hypothesizes rather than her rank unprofessionalism, her shameless bigotry, and her attack on the right two-thirds of SF/Fdom? Especially when she still hasn’t informed us whose works are bad and whose are reprehensible.
I don’t want an apology. I don’t expect an apology.
I expect a resignation.
D. Jason Fleming on Doing Slapstick In The Kingdom Of The Blind
“Irene Gallo, Unrepentant Bigot” – June 8
This, as I pointed out in the reply pictured, is not an apology.
It is a passive-aggressive insult: “I’m sorry you’re so stupid that your feelings were hurt when you didn’t understand what I was really saying,” more or less.
She does not apologize for impugning the characters of a very large number of people. She does not apologize for impugning authors who work for her employer, in particular. She does not apologize for her immaturity in prancing about demonstrating that she’s not part of a tribe she hates. She does not apologize for her bigotry in any way, shape, or form.
She only apologizes for the feelings of people who might have been hurt by what she said.
What she said, then, must still stand.
Tom Knighton
“Tom Doherty address Irene Gallo controversy” – June 8
…Not mentioned was that she was promoting a forthcoming book from Tor written by Kameron Hurley, started off with trying to antagonize the Puppies, and then ramped it up when someone asked what she meant.
This colors her comments as being in her professional capacity as creative director for Tor and associate editor for Tor.com, which is something that seems to be repeatedly missing from many of the comments from Tor or Gallo’s supporters.
Yes, they may have been her personal comments, but the context gives a very different impression. I suspect that what Doherty is trying to do here is to put some distance between the growing perception that Tor, as an entity, is hostile to Puppies. We’ll see how that pans out….
Now, as for Doherty’s comments, it’s worth noting that now Tor has officially gone on record as saying that the Puppies aren’t racist misogynists who only want to see white men get awards, which is a narrative that just won’t freaking stay dead. Maybe now it will.
Once again, I won’t be holding my breath.
Interestingly enough, had Irene Gallo said something against gay marriage instead, the parties that are now saying, “What’s the big deal?” would be calling for her head still. Meanwhile, a number of us are satisfied with Doherty’s response. I’m not sure you can count me in that group just yet, but I’m at least willing to listen to what Tor as an entity has to say going forward…so long as it’s Doherty doing the talking.
David Gerrold on Facebook – June 8
The Worldcon is not a cage match. It’s a party.
It’s a gathering of the tribes. It’s a celebration. It’s an opportunity to hang out with old friends and make new ones. It’s a party.
I intend to go to the party and have a great time. I intend to do what I can to make sure the people around me are having a great time.
Now, let me add this part.
A lot of people are upset about a lot of different things this year. This year, more than usual. Some people have even expressed their concerns about the possibilities of disruption or confrontation.
Okay, yeah — I can understand the concern.
But I intend to be there for bridge-building and fence-mending and any other appropriate metaphor for healing and recovery.
And I encourage/request/suggest/advise/invite everyone else to attend with the same goals of having a good time and helping others to have a good time too.
This is our party. Let’s make it a great one. Let’s have it be a party where everyone feels welcome. Everyone. That’s my commitment to this year’s convention.
John Scalzi on Whatever
“Weekend Updatery and Miscellaneous, 6/8/15”
On a (very) tangentially related note, Jim Hines did some yeoman work over the weekend doing a quick early history of the Sad Puppies, using their own words to help make the picture more clear for the confused, which at this point could be everyone. Jim somewhat mercifully skates over the part where Theodore Beale makes the Sad Puppies his arguably unwitting tools for his own purposes (i.e., the “Rabid Puppies” slate, aka the “Let me just use the Hugos to promote my own little not terribly successful publishing house here” slate), but it’s otherwise pretty comprehensive, and a good primer.
It’s not escaped notice that I’ve been slacking on my Hugo/Puppies commentary recently, but honestly at this point there’s not anything new for me to say. It’s a low-information movement begun in craven entitlement, with a political element tacked on as a cudgel, taken over by an ambitious bigot, and I’m sorry for the several excellent people I know who have gotten wrapped up in this nonsense one way or another. That’s pretty much where I’ve been on it for a while now. When I have anything new and useful to add, I’ll make note of it.
Cedar Sanderson on According To Hoyt
“Trust and Loathing – Cedar Sanderson” – June 8
The Sad Puppy campaign for the Hugo Awards is such a little thing, when you look at it. Run by fans, for fans, and yet… And yet it became a nationally aware movement, with opponents who defamed good men without a second thought in media outlets, even to the point where the media was forced to backpedal as they had gone too far in their snapping, snarling rush to mangle the puppies. In SFF fandom it seems everyone is reeling in disbelief and confusion over what happened and why. Politics in minor scale has been with fandom from the beginning. What is it about now, to bring this over-the-top reaction to something that has been done before?
Why has there been such a backlash of feeling and vituperation against the sad puppy movement? What is it about this relatively small campaign of voting, done legally and very openly, that leads people to scream, stamp their feet, and lie on the floor weeping and pounding their fists against whatever they can reach? Comments on the campaign have ranged from repugnant, to calling for the ‘puppies’ to be interned in concentration camps.
Dave Freer on Mad Genius Club
“Communication, subjectivity” – June 8
I hate being right when I make unpleasant predictions. I still hate the idea of a boycott, because – as I will explain in this authors have few and poor choices. Still, this goes too far, breaches their own rules,the Macmillan code of conduct:
The exercise of good judgment is still expected from employees at all times. • Could this conduct be viewed as dishonest, unethical or unlawful? • Could this conduct hurt Macmillan – e.g., could it cause us to lose credibility with customers or business partners? • Could this conduct hurt other people – e.g., other employees or customers? • Would I be embarrassed to see this conduct reported in the newspaper?
It goes beyond the bullying we’ve come to expect and mock from them. I have written to [email protected] (Code of Conduct compliance) asking what steps they’re going to take.
I urge you to do the same if you don’t want the reaction from this hurting your favorite Tor author. I think it fair to give them time to respond, to deal with this sepsis. Let’s see what they do about it. If it is not adequate I am afraid I will have to join the boycott of any Tor author who is not either a Sad Puppy, or who does not speak out publicly against this (which is very hard on authors, and that makes me angry and sad, but eventually you have to stop just hoping they’ll leave you alone.) and encourage my readers to do the same. The company did not make a fortune from me – maybe 50-100 dollars a year. It won’t break them, but I won’t support someone who abuses me and many friends who are better people than I am. As I point out below, publishers get a lot more of a book’s money than the authors. You’d think not badmouthing readers would be common sense.
Adam Lawson
“Screaming into the fire” – June 8
You can count me in on boycotting Tor as long as Irene Gallo works there.
I’ll accept being called a lot of things; “wrongfan” is one of them. Neo-nazi isn’t.
The Nazis and Neo-Nazis are examples of some of the worst things humanity has to offer. Comparing people to those monsters over a disagreement on an award for fiction books is heavy-handed. Refusing to back down when you are told how wrong you are is obnoxious, and there’s no room for obnoxious in my life or lending any support toward it. Let’s just cover a few basic reasons that Gallo is the wrongest person on the internet: ….
Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man
“An open letter to Tom Doherty of Tor Books” – June 8
Mr. Doherty, with the greatest possible respect to you as an individual: until Tor publicly dissociates itself from the outrageous positions taken by the individuals I have named (all of them), publicly rebukes those concerned, and takes steps to make sure that no such statements are ever again made by senior members of the company, I shall be unable to believe any assurances that their views are not those of Tor. Actions speak louder than words – and so does the absence of actions. All Tor has offered is words. It’s time for actions. What is Tor going to, not say, but DO about the situation? – because unless and until it does the right thing, others are going to do what they believe to be necessary and appropriate under the circumstances. There is very little time left to address these issues before this situation gets out of control. For the sake of all of us in the SF/F community, I hope Tor uses it wisely.
Chris Gerrib on Private Mars Rocket
“Puppy Bites Woman, Pictures At 11” – June 8
So, Irene Gallo, an employee at Tor, said something negative about Sad and Rabid Puppies on her personal blog while promoting a Tor product. The CEO of Tor issued a statement making clear that Gallo was speaking for herself personally. Vox Day demands Gallo resign. Yet when Brendan Eich resigned Mozilla over something he said, Vox was all Stand Your Ground! and Don’t Give In to Your Critics! In short, Tom Doherty did exactly what Vox told Brendan Eichs to do, yet Doherty is wrong, per Vox. I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.
Joe Vasicek on One Thousand And One Parsecs
“An open letter to Tor.com in reference to Irene Gallo” – June 8
I am writing to withdraw my short story, “The Curse of the Lifewalker” (submission id: 55c13821ebd3) from the Tor.com slushpile effective immediately. In light of the highly unprofesional recent behavior of Ms. Irene Gallo, an associate publisher of your organization, I cannot in good conscience support or be associated with Tor.com.
Pex Lives: A Doctor Who Podcast
“Pex Lives and Eruditorium Press Presents the Vox Day Interview” – June 8
Phil Sandifer talks to Vox Day, the writer and editor behind the Rabid Puppy/Hugo Awards controversy, about the relative merits of John C. Wright’s One Bright Star to Guide Them and Iain M. Banks’ The Wasp Factory.
At @strangehorizons, @nine_below is the latest to leap on the grenade of the Sad/Rabid Puppies' short fiction picks: http://t.co/GTlTpSuvTe
— Abigail Nussbaum (@NussbaumAbigail) June 8, 2015
Martin Lewis on Strange Horizons
“2015 Hugo Awards Short Fiction Shortlist” – June 8
It is clearly these latter three stories that the Puppies are concerned we, the voters of the Hugos, have been missing out on. English and Diamond are writing filler of the sort that is ten-a-penny in the periodicals of the field and has sometimes even made the ballot of awards. Antonelli, Rzasa, and Wright, however, are spreading the Good News. Why come up with a premise for your story when there is only one premise that matters? What the Puppies fail to understand is that they haven’t been shunned because of prejudice, rather they’ve been talking to themselves. Now, having created a bully pulpit for themselves, it becomes clear that they don’t have anything to say.
Want to know what humans at Wattpad HQ are reading this week? Check it out: http://t.co/9syO8x8ACt #WattpadPick pic.twitter.com/CQwWx36vhp
— Wattpad (@wattpad) June 8, 2015
Lis Carey at Lis Carey’s Library
“Wisdom From My Internet, by Michael Z Williamson” – June 8
It’s not witty, informative, or in any way entertaining. Fatally for a Best Related Work Hugo nominee, it’s not sf-related. The tone of it can pretty fairly be deduced from the fact of it’s publisher: Patriarchy Press.
Lis Carey at Lis Carey’s Library
“Best Fan Artist–Brad W. Foster, Elizabeth Leggett, Ninni Aalto, Spring Schoenhuth, Steve Stiles” – June 8
Spring Shoenhuth: I see two lovely selections of jewelry, and an image to which my initial reaction was “What the heck?” On further examination, the “What the heck?” image was produced for Loncon 3, for the Retro Hugos, and I think I’d like it much better at its original size. And of the three, it’s the one that best fits my perhaps limited ideas of “fan art.”
Ninni Aalto: Two fantastical caricatures that are definitely “fan art.” They look to be quite skilled, and, for me, sadly, they just don’t do it. I expect the reaction to that statement, from many, will be variations of “Why NOT?” No defensible reason; they just don’t.
Elizabeth Leggett: Three truly lovely images. I just don’t see what makes them “fan art,” specifically, though.
Brad W. Foster: Three images, unambiguously fan art, and I like them.
Steve Stiles: Three images, unambiguously fan art. And I love them. I just really have fun looking at them. They make me smile.
Pluviann on The Kingfisher’s Nest
“Turncoat – Steve Rzasa” – June 8
At this point the story has really betrayed itself as MilSF, because it chooses romance over realism. History shows us again and again that courage, tenacity and heroism are no match for superior training, tactics and weapons. The Celts lost to the Romans; the American Indians lost to the United States. Irrational tactics do not win against logical battle plans.
So there are two options that the story could have taken – either the constructs are wrong, there is an underlying logic in the human plans and the constructs for some reason cannot see it; or the constructs really are superior and the humans lose. The first is an interesting story about the limits of AI, and the second is a very interesting story about what it means for humans to have intrinsic value in a world where they contribute nothing useful. Sadly the story doesn’t pursue either of those avenues, and the construct is persuaded by Isaiah 29.16 to serve those who created him.
Lyda Morehouse on Bitter Empire
“Hugo Puppery Disappoints” – June 8
With all of that, only two “Puppy Books” remain on the ballot: Kevin J. Anderson’s The Dark Between the Stars and Jim Butcher’s Skin Game, the fifteenth book in his popular Dresden Files series.
Despite the wonky way in which they arrived on the ballot, I was not automatically predisposed against either Butcher or Anderson. I’ve heard a lot of great things from friends who enjoy the heck out of the Dresden File series. Meanwhile, Kevin J. Anderson is a household name among longtime Star Wars novels fans (including me).
I have to admit, however, I went into both of these books hunting for that clue, the hint as to why the Puppies picked these guys over all others. Guess what? Neither of them disappointed and I figured out why they were beloved by the pups by the second chapter of each of their excerpted novels.
Anderson’s…wow, okay, I wanted to like Kevin J. Anderson’s book. It’s got this great title, The Dark Between the Stars — heck, that’s just COOL — and his acknowledgements are all about how this book is meant to be a love song to all the great, rip-roaring science fiction adventure novels he grew up on.
Okay, sounds great. I’m so in. Bring it.
I think I maybe made fifteen pages before I quit.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“I am officially retiring the Sad Puppy Book Reviews as a regular feature” – June 8
I may bring it back if any of the major players says or does something that is both egregious and a relatively new specimen of troll logic, but for now I think it’s run its course.
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And while we’re on the subject of Niven/Pournelle: Oath of Fealty is an unreadable snooze, and Legacy of Heorot is just the thing if you’re craving a bog-standard MilSf ubermensch beset on all sides by cowards and effete intellectuals.
… Puppy-dominated sights…
I wonder if that was autocorrect or me – looks like me based on trying to misspell one of the words I just now typed.
Doctor Science: Could one of you who really liked Annihilation please talk about *why*? Because I found it a dreadful chore to read, even though it has lots of biology, which put the “Doctor” in “Doctor Science”. Neither Mr Dr nor I was able to feel any sense of connection or giving a damn about any of the characters.
Unlike a Puppy, I am not surprised to see it win awards: the people who like it seem to like it very much indeed. But I have no idea why, and would love to hear someone expound.
I would say that I am not a fan of horror or what is called “The New Weird”. Nevertheless, I found Annihilation fascinating — and though the meanings of its events are derived slowly by the reader along the way, I think that it rewards the patient reader by the end. I thought its Nebula win was as well-deserved as it would have been for any of the other nominees.
I enjoyed Authority — not quite as much as the first one, but I did feel that it continued to expand understanding of the mysteries of Area X. Acceptance, on the other hand, I thought went reasonably well for the first part but then seemed to go completely off the rails for me and I finished the book feeling very unsatisfied — and not engaged so fully as to be willing to go back and read it again to see if I could get resolution.
Those books, again, are much more about the mysteries of Area X and the events which occur there, than they are about character development.
@smade – yeah, I’ve got a first edition of Neutron Star that I carefully protect from visiting friends …….
I loved the novels as well as the short stories. But as you say, the Beowulf Schaeffer stories are all gems.
I’m glad to see the love for Sunshine. I have been a huge reader of vampire fiction (yes, I am one of the consumers of the dreaded “urban fantasy” genre, but in my defense, I was reading it long before it was called that) for years and Sunshine was the first book in many a long while that did something with vampires that both surprised and frightened me.
Also, the love for London. Of the cities where I don’t live, London is right behind New Orleans at the very top. I even wrote about it for Novelocity. http://www.novelocity.org/?p=1196
@Paul & @Laertes
I remember finding both Ringworld and Mote unputdownable too (and Protector, which I was surprised to find I hadn’t read about 5 years ago), but haven’t read them since the…ah, maybe I won’t count the years just now. I do think, though, they might be a bit dull for a new reader, though – many of the best ideas have been rethought and given new coats of paint by others since, and if we’re honest some of Niven’s work really hasn’t aged that well.
I think the problem writers like Niven face in terms of staying power in comparison to modern work is that the characters are often window dressing for the idea. I don’t personally think this is an issue, per se, but not currently fashionable, and for readers who don’t keep a slide rule in their back pocket just in case it can certainly make for a flat-seeming tale.
The “physics puzzle” dimension of Niven’s Known Space stories is what keeps me coming back, even if the attitudes and politics of the cookie-cutter characters feel rather dated these days.
You know what I love to see in SF these days? Strong “hard” SF that relies heavily on the science or tech, but which also has the rich characterization some of the more touchy-feely modern stuff has. There are a few authors who seem to come close to the sweet spot, but I haven’t stumbled on anyone yet who quite makes it (not for me, anyway).
With regard to criticism of Dohery/Tor apologizing, and/or Gallo apologizing, and/or the wording of those apologies… I see no reason to suppose that their issuing apologies and/or their wording were strictly their own decisions. Tor is not an independent company. It’s a division of MacMillan, a corporate with corporate-style interests, hierarchies, and behaviors.
I have no idea what happened internally at Tor after Beale started making this calculated stink about Gallo’s 3-week old comment. But the possibilities certainly include: MacMillan told Tor to make this go away by apologizing immediately; or Tor realized internally that they should make this go away immediately rather than letting it boil -until- MacMillan tells them to make it go away; and/or it’s possible that someone within MacMillan advised them on wording to ensure their public statements would (at least in a legal sense, if not a Vox sense) make this go away rather than escalate or spiral.
I don’t -know- that MacMillan (or concern about MacMillan’s reaction) was the motor in this, but since it’s among the possibilities of what happened internally, I’m disinclined to suppose the apologies or their wording were strictly choices made my Tor, Doherty, and/or Gallo.
Haven’t read it since the 80s, (see above re questionable taste) but I remember liking Protector quite a lot.
@Paul
I assure you that particular copy of Neutron Star is actually mine. Shall I forward my mailing address, or shall I come in person to peruse your library and see if you have “accidentally” collected any more of my long-lost friends?
@smade – Alastair Reynolds works for me!
I love Niven’s The Integral Trees but I’ve rarely met anyone else who does.
Interestingly though, despite having a serious “Niven science puzzle” habit, I’m finding Three Body Problem a bit of a slog. I’m ok with slightly translucent characters functioning mainly to illuminate the science ideas, but I’m actually having trouble finding the science ideas that others seem to be raving about. And while I’m sure the translation is true to the original tone, I’m finding the dialog and some of the narration a bit awkward, so that’s not helping.
So, any 3BP ravers here who can (without spoilers) give a sense of why it’s getting such kudos? I do so want to like this book, but so far unsuccessful.
…And of course Ancillary Justice was wonderful ….
Still can’t see why puppies don’t like it. It’s great rip-roaring adventure SF.
on June 9, 2015 at 7:42 pm said:
Rev. Bob: No, Elwes.
PIMM: I have wondered for decades. How is that pronounced?
CPaca: Cholmondeley.
No, no, it’s Featherstonehaugh.
I’ll cop to reading “Lucifer’s Hammer” a few dozen times as a teenager, but I was in a weird phase that would have turned me into a survivalist if it had twisted the other way. It was the rebuilding-a-society bit that I was fascinated with. I pretty much graduated straight from “Swiss Family Robinson” to “Hammer. “And I was reading “Gate to Women’s Country” at the same time and loving it, so it’s a fair bet that I was missing the subtexts in “Hammer” or assigning them to the character instead of the narrator. (I remember one bit about “one good thing, women’s lib was dead as soon as the comet hit” that struck me as WTF, even then.)
It’s easy to like apocalypse when you think you’ll do well in them. These days I would expect to die unpleasantly, and that really lessens the charm.
@Smade
“I think the problem writers like Niven face in terms of staying power in comparison to modern work is that the characters are often window dressing for the idea. I don’t personally think this is an issue, per se, but not currently fashionable”
You might have a point.
I’ve liked Niven, and other stories that could be said of, certainly. But overall, my SF tastes are mostly post-new-wave. I like things more literary, and more character-based, and so on. Exactly the opposite of Brad Torgersen, it seems, based on his “Nutty Nuggets” manifesto.
Except — BIG except — the new wave happened before I was born. I cut my SF teeth on all that “new stuff.” Mr. Torgersen is not older than I am. The new wave happened before he was born, too.
@Gabriel F
I enjoyed The Integral Trees and sequel quite a bit, but (spoiler-ish) they turned out to be rather sad books in some ways. The protagonists triumph, for a given value of triumph, but reveal what might be the last bastion of humanity is stuck in a dead end situation. A slow dwindling is the best that particular universe can promise.
@Paul Oldroyd: “Still can’t see why puppies don’t like it. It’s great rip-roaring adventure SF.” Gender cooties.
@Smade: So, any 3BP ravers here who can (without spoilers) give a sense of why it’s getting such kudos? The aliens cast throw some pretty cool gee-whiz in the back half of the book. It’s a bit overdone if you stop and think about it, but at first glance it’s pretty neat.
(Another Apocalypse read I enjoyed as a teen–“Wolf & Iron” by Gordon R. Dickenson, which I suspect I would find tediously he-man and absurd now,)
Oops. That should have just read “the aliens throw some pretty cool gee-whiz.” “Cast” was left over from an earlier draft in which “the aliens cast some pretty cool spells.” Which, in hindsight, I should have stuck with. Because, jeez. You’ll see.
@ Ryan
That didn’t really bother me, in fact it may have set me up for my future enjoyment of apocalypse fiction! I just loved the detailed worldbuilding and I think those books is where Clark’s Third Law kicked in for me.
@Paul
YES A MILLION TIMES YES!
Reynolds is a current obsession of mine. Sadly, his books are tricky to get in paper form from here so I’m a little behind, but I have a new one coming soon! Galactic North. I discovered him completely by accident a few years ago by reluctantly accepting a box of books a colleague was trying to unload before a big move. Most of the box was junk, but I found a well-loved copy of the 1977 Berkley Medalion printing of Dune and Reynold’s The Prefect in among the dross.
This is a lot more daunting a task than it would be if it wasn’t implicitly “suggest something which is comparable to Fledgling“! If there’s a chance you haven’t already read John M. Ford’s The Dragon Waiting, there is another book that does very interesting things with its vampires.
Okay, Mike — figure out why that one went into moderation.
I’m utterly baffled — unless Mr Bayes gets easily confused by long, irrational names.
@Laertes & CPaca & Smade & Aaron & Gabriel F. & RedWombat
Thanks! I’m saving all your tips and recommendations.
@JJ
Connolly sums up most of how I feel about it, I think.
@Elisa
I hope it lives up to your expectations. 🙂 It had some major wow moments for me.
I like cafe in the crypt, but I’ve never had a Christmas dinner there. I wonder if it was any good. They used to make a point, in partnership with their charity, of employing homeless people in the cafe to give them income and get them back on the job ladder. I always liked that policy.
@Jon
Honestly, I think Day being a hypocrite is enough of a given that it doesn’t merit much discussion unless everyone wants to make inroads into destroying their liver (Aristotle!). Someone points it out, everyone else nods along verbally or silently, the conversation moves on.
@McJulie
Victorian England (and London in particular) is a favourite of mine. I don’t read a lot of non-fiction, but most of what I do read is Victorian history with an emphasis on crime, poverty and activism, but a little bit of almost everything. Its a fascinating part of history. All that change going on at once, I love it.
Sneaky Hugo nom rec: The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage is now in print! Its a wonderful comic about an alt history steampunk London and well worth checking out.
Thumbs up to both Fledgling and The Dragon Waiting. I’m not normally a fan of vampire fic but both of these were well worth reading (and Dragon Waiting is only incidentally a vampire fic — it’s much more than that as well.)
I also recommend The Passage as a Really Good Vampire Book.
Smade: There are a few authors who seem to come close to the sweet spot, but I haven’t stumbled on anyone yet who quite makes it (not for me, anyway).
What are your “close” ones?
I thought Neutron Star held up fairly well:
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/neutron-star
“I withdraw my story from your slush pile” is the saddest possible protest. I should’ve pulled it on Poetry magazine back in the day.
May Tree:
By whom?
Jim Henley: “I withdraw my story from your slush pile” is the saddest possible protest. I should’ve pulled it on Poetry magazine back in the day.
I know, I died laughing when I read that comment.
It’s hilarious enough that the Puppies actually believe that there were enough of them buying Tor books before who will cease to do so now, that it would cause any sort of financial hardship to Tor.
But “I protest by not allowing you to send me a Rejection Slip!” pretty much takes the cake.
Maximillian:
>> I suppose at this point we just expect that kind of thing from the majority of the Rabids and so most of us just roll our eyes and drive on>>
Just to note: LaForce is presumably a Sad, not a Rabid, being a Baen author (sort of) and a pal-o-Torg.
Let’s not fall into the trap of thinking it’s only the Rabids who say disgusting and insulting things.
Note 2: I was the one who imported LaForce’s comment from another blog, as an illustration of what he was like before he was “through being polite,” so presumably I’ve got some responsibility here too. I apologized for it. LaForce then repeated the comment.
Footfall, not so much
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/footfall
May Tree: “I am absolutely croggled that anyone can be using “The Puppies were nasty on File770 so I get to be nasty too!” as some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card.”
Who’s doing that? Not me. I’m pointing out that some people are extraordinarily choosy about what to get upset about, and it doesn’t seem to correlate to the degree of offensiveness or untruth in the statement they’re upset by. If ‘neonazi’ is going to set you off (especially when said about a man with demonstrably extremist views on race, gender, sexuality, and governance), but ‘sandy vagina’ isn’t, then I think your radar needs resetting.
Meredith, no apologies or explanation needed. I agree entirely about S1AL which is why I walked away from talking to him – and to Jeffro.
I lose perspective when under stress, as I did this morning over Scalzi, and that means walking away too. Which I will do for a bit. I just dropped back to answer you so you didn’t think I was doing a shit and run, like some commenters do.
@Laertes – good to know. Will keep slogging then (not that I would have done otherwise – I have never left a book unfinished and even pushed through to the end of Battlefield Earth, so nearly everything else is very much a downhill ride.) – as for the editing slip, I think the muddled version sounds rather interesting!
@McJulie – Yes, it took me a while to realise that pre, peri and post New Wave work are quite different and you have to come to them with different assumptions in order to enjoy them. When I figured that out, though, it was a double-edged sword – now my reading list will never give me a sense of accomplishment!
Re: Tanith Lee, I’d say The Birthgrave isn’t a bad place to start, especially since it’s just been reissued. (There were two sequels; they’ll be coming later in the year.) My favorite series of hers is the Flat Earth books — kind of a decadent Arabian Nights/Persian feel to them. I also enjoyed her Paradys books and, well, just about anything of hers I’ve been able to get my hands on over the years. Whatever you find, you’re in for a treat.
On Niven and Ringworld and rollicking space yarns:
I quite enjoyed the Fleet of Worlds series, written by Larry Niven and Edward Lerner. It’s set in Known Space, some 200 years or so before the events in Ringworld, and starts with a human colony ship discovering the Puppeteer worlds (which have already departed on their great escape). The stories in Fleet of Worlds provide backstory and a counter-point to events that Niven wrote about in Known Space, and introduce/feature a human called Sigmund Ausfaller.
It reads like classic Niven from the ’80s, even though the stories were written within the last few years.
Laertes:
OK, yeah, I totally agree about that character. I kind of … ignored him, I guess? Or put him down as [rot13] abg ernyyl n punenpgre nal zber, ohg n pbafgehpg jvguva gur jbeyq bs gur fgbel. So it didn’t bother me that much.
And as far as embarrassing post-apocalyptic books (or series), I still have a complete run of Robert Adams’ Horseclans in paperback. Although even back in the day I don’t think I got through more than eight or nine of them before giving up, and I suspect that current-day me would be a lot less forgiving of them than teenage me.
I read “Championship B’Tok” last night. Man, that really knocked my socks on.
I’ve read middle chapters of X-Men crossover events with no recaps that were more coherent than that. It didn’t even read like a chapter — a prologue that was never returned to, and a main story that built a few things up with no resolutions.
Tonight I start reading UPROOTED by Naomi Novik. I think I’ll like it better.
@Ryan H Some reactions on Gawker for the round-up tomorrow.
I suspect that TOR is not going to be happy with how the rest of the world views its response to this mess.
http://review.gawker.com/americas-largest-sci-fi-publisher-gives-in-to-reactiona-1710069386
Good article, and damn right Tor should be unhappy. I’ll say again: Tor, & Tom Doherty, made a mistake in releasing their statement. They gave something too much attention in an effort to placate a bunch of twits who would never accept anything from them.
Heck, just take a look at the comments on Eric Flint’s site, where you’ve got Puppy Hugo Nominee Michael Z Williamson insisting that Gallo’s apology is a non apology. Either he’s got no idea what a non-apology actually is, or there’s a remarkable reading comprehension fail going on there.
@Lori Coulson I also stumbled across Mary Robinette Kowal’s Glamour books
Oh crap, the new one came out a couple of months ago right? Sigh. Lets add to to-read mountain.
On a book reading note, 3/4 thru 3BP. Maaaaaaaan is the first half a slog. But picks up really nicely after the setup though.
I did enjoy Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers (and the rest of the earlier Known Space books) but I wasn’t as impressed with the subsequent Ringworld books, and haven’t tried Fleet of Worlds yet. My problem with the later Ringworld books was that it felt like Niven kept trying to retrofit contemporary science back onto the 1960s Known Space framework (e.g. adding nanotech) and the weld didn’t always take.
@Andy H.
Oh sorry, The Passage is by Justin Cronin. There’s a sequel out, The Twelve which is also pretty good but lacks the coherent focus of the first one. A third book is due out…um…Real Soon Now? (The second book did have a really great line wherein a character was contemplating how to explain where the vampires came from, and the best he could come up with was “Well, we made them. It seemed like a good idea at the time.”)
@Samaritan’s Dad “Man, that really knocked my socks on.”
BWAHAHA! Priceless. I’m going to have to remember that line the next time I’m underwhelmed.
@ snowcrash
On a book reading note, 3/4 thru 3BP. Maaaaaaaan is the first half a slog. But picks up really nicely after the setup though.
I’m really not a fan of the idea that the setup of any book should be a slog… nor last half the book!
I’ve not read Niven in years, but I have to say, picking up a copy of Neutron Star as a 10 year old kid is what began 34 years more of pretty dedicated sf reading. I’m sure I would be disappointed now, and his political agenda (invisible to a 10 year old) would hover in my mind.
That said, Mote still lurks in my head as the archetype big space yarn, and I look forward to seeing my son read it.
I really agree with the characters as window dressing for the idea analysis posted earlier, but Niven sure could toss around big ideas. I feel like Larry is the Shirley Temple you drink before your palate can appreciate Laphroaig
JJ:
Thanks for talking about what grabbed you in Annihilation! I don’t like horror much, and I generally don’t like the “am I on drugs or is the character? who can tell?!” style — Philip K. Dick generally leaves me cold. And I was yearning, as I so often do, for “hard” SF where the science is biology.
James H. Schmitz is one of my benchmarks, for that reason. And wow, I just discovered that Baen reprinted The Demon Breed, my favorite Schmitz novel, better even that Witches of Karres.
Kurt Busiek:..a prologue that was never returned to…
I thought I’d accidentally skipped over a bit. I think I may have thought that the whole thing was better than it was because my mind kept wandering, and I felt guilty that I hadn’t being paying attention.
Am I the only one who remembers Niven/Gerrold, The Flying Sorcerers? Or the only one who thought it hilarious?
The line “as a color, a shade of purple” is still stuck in my memory.
May:
>> Oh sorry, The Passage is by Justin Cronin. There’s a sequel out, The Twelve which is also pretty good but lacks the coherent focus of the first one.>>
I liked the first one, but tore through it so fast that when I was reading the second one, I didn’t remember a lot of details and characters and relationships Cronin didn’t seem to reintroduce, so I got bogged down and stopped.
I want to reread the first so I can read the second, but man, it’s long. So I haven’t had a window yet.
>> A third book is due out…um…Real Soon Now? >>
Amazon UK has it — THE CITY OF MIRRORS — listed for 31 Dec 2016. Whether that’s a placeholder or an actual date, who knows?
Most of my reading these days is under an NDA as I am on a jury for a book award for another genre and cannot discuss what I am looking at.
Most of the rest of my reading is directly related to my day job, so please feel free to take this recommendation with a grain of salt, but I think many of you would like our forthcoming book Gene Mapper by Taiyo Fujii, especially Hoatzin, who had kind words about Rocket Girls and Rocket Girls: The Last Planet.
Gene Mapper is out next week.
Thanks!