Tom Doherty Statement

Tor Books publisher Tom Doherty issued a statement on Tor.com about Irene Gallo’s Facebook comments, distinguishing them as not representing the company or himself:

The Science Fiction community is populated with engaged authors and fans many of whom have strong and varied opinions on many subjects. Tor supports that diversity of viewpoints by publishing a widely varied group of authors and books through Tor/Forge and by posting a variety of material and reader comment on Tor.com.

Last month, Irene Gallo, a member of Tor’s staff, posted comments about two groups of science fiction writers, Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies, and about the quality of some of the 2015 Hugo Award nominees, on her personal Facebook page. Ms. Gallo is identified on her page as working for Tor. She did not make it clear that her comments were hers alone. They do not reflect Tor’s views or mine. She has since clarified that her personal views are just that and apologized to anyone her comments may have hurt or offended.

The Puppies groups were organized to support a slate of authors for the Hugo Awards, given annually for the best science fiction or fantasy works and achievements of the previous year. Media coverage of the two groups initially suggested that they were organized simply to promote white men, which was not correct. Each Puppies’ slate of authors and editors included some women and writers of color, including Rajnar Vajra, Annie Bellet, Kary English, Toni Weisskopf, Ann Sowards, Megan Gray, Sheila Gilbert, Jennifer Brozek, Cedar Sanderson and Amanda Green. Some of the authors on the Sad Puppy slate have been published by Tor and Tor.com, including  Kevin J. Anderson, John C. Wright, Ed Lerner and Michael F. Flynn. Many, many Hugo Award nominees and winners are our authors too, including Kevin J. Anderson, John C. Wright and Katherine Addison this year and John Chu, John Scalzi, Cherie Priest and Jo Walton in past years, just to mention a few.

In short, we seek out and publish a diverse and wide ranging group of books. We are in the business of finding great stories and promoting literature and are not about promoting a political agenda

Tor employees, including Ms. Gallo, have been reminded that they are required to clarify when they are speaking for Tor and when they are speaking for themselves. We apologize for any confusion Ms. Gallo’s comments may have caused. Let me reiterate: the views expressed by Ms. Gallo are not those of Tor as an organization and are not my own views.  Rest assured, Tor remains committed to bringing readers the finest in science fiction – on a broad range of topics, from a broad range of authors.

And Irene Gallo added this comment to her May 11 Facebook post:

About my Sad/Rabid Puppies comments: They were solely mine. This is my personal page; I do not speak on behalf of Tor Books or Tor.com. I realize I painted too broad a brush and hurt some individuals, some of whom are published by Tor Books and some of whom are Hugo Award winners. I apologize to anyone hurt by my comments.

238 thoughts on “Tom Doherty Statement

  1. Aaron – Again, if you don’t see how bad it looks that one side of this issue had that kind of information that early… eh.

    As for the message – What. Was. It? Saying that there’s a message is meaningless unless you can actually enumerate the message. So, again: what was the message of each piece?


    Cally – My issue is that the definition of “fan” used by the WorldCon group and the definition of “fan” used by everyone else are massively different, and the insistence that the former is correct is ludicrous. This ties into what I said to Aaron: fandom, meaning the collective group of “fans of SFF” would hardly notice if WorldCon simply disappeared. The insular, cliquish WorldCon “fandom” group would, of course, notice… but that’s such a tiny, tiny segment of fandom that it doesn’t really matter one iota in the big picture.

  2. Again, if you don’t see how bad it looks that one side of this issue had that kind of information that early… eh.

    So it looks bad that people have friends and talk to one another? The more you talk on this subject, the more apparent it becomes that you have a hard time with understanding normal human relationships.

    What. Was. It?

    I’m not sure how you are not seeing the blunt force message in a story in which the A.I. is converted by reading the Bible. Or in a story that takes place after the rapture.

  3. fandom, meaning the collective group of “fans of SFF” would hardly notice if WorldCon simply disappeared. The insular, cliquish WorldCon “fandom” group would, of course, notice… but that’s such a tiny, tiny segment of fandom that it doesn’t really matter one iota in the big picture.

    Fans of SFF would notice, they just wouldn’t know why. Worldcon is the center of a vast web of relationships and connections, both personal and professional, that would be broken without it. As I noted before, you seem to have a hard time understanding normal human interaction, so the fact that you are having a hard time seeing how the loss of Worldcon would affect anyone not directly connected to it is not surprising.

  4. And the definition of “bears” by gay guys and the definition of “bears” by wildlife experts are also very different. So? You’re telling a community that has existed continuously for almost 90 years that they don’t actually exist, because some guys back near the beginning of the last century made a less than perfect choice of name.

  5. Apparently S1AL can’t grok that something can be a floor wax AND a dessert topping.

  6. Aaron – You’re looking at this whole scenario from an insider’s perspective: the problem is not that it’s abnormal for people to talk, but WHO is involved in which clique. Combine that with a preemptive claim to *not* have insider information, and it looks suspicious at best.

    And how do you figure that all of these personal and professional relationships are centered on WorldCon? More importantly, does that not reinforce my above point?

    Regardless, that doesn’t mean that WorldCon is oh-so-important that it would create massive ripples in the wider arena of fandom… only within the little fandom of WorldCon.

    Now, as for message: state what you think the message is. I don’t want to know what you think the clues to the message are. I don’t want to know which religious references and elements you see. I want to know what you claim the *message* of each piece is. The fact that you’re treating Turncoat as a conversion parable is pretty entertaining all by itself, given that one could interpret the AI’s response as a heterodox interpretation of the scripture presented.

    So, again: What is the message. Spell it out. I suspect that you’re seeing religious references and elements and calling them “messages.”


    Cally – No, I’m saying that treating WorldCon-centric fandom as the “proper” use of the term in this debate is a huge issue and reveals a lot about the core issue. I’m saying you’re proving an SP point: that the Hugos claim to be an award for wider fandom, but are actually an award for the narrow WorldCon fandom. So the SP supporters and organizers really ARE the barbarians at the gate.

    Or do you not agree with that?

  7. S1AL: “I’m saying you’re proving an SP point: that the Hugos claim to be an award for wider fandom, but are actually an award for the narrow WorldCon fandom. So the SP supporters and organizers really ARE the barbarians at the gate.”

    To me this is just posturing. The slates loaded up the award ballot with a lot of inferior work. What readers in or out of the Worldcon community would think very many of those stories deserved an award? What the slates did was not representative of quality, but of cronyism.

  8. My issue is that the definition of “fan” used by the WorldCon group and the definition of “fan” used by everyone else are massively different, and the insistence that the former is correct is ludicrous.

    You’re in a community where the word “fandom” has had a specific meaning for decades and you’re telling us over and over that our meaning is wrong. You won’t win that argument. You’ll just prolong the period of time in which you sound like a total noob.

    File 770 emerged as a fanzine in 1978. It is named for a room that hosted a party at the 1951 Worldcon. Proclaiming on this site that fandom wouldn’t notice if Worldcon died is as stupid as going to England and telling them that football is called soccer.

  9. S1AL: Inferior to a lot of work in categories the Puppies profess to love. None of the space action stuff begins to compare to Marko Kloos’ work, for instance, let alone the ongoing ripping yarn that James S.A. Corey is delivering. None of the sit-down-and-talk-a-lot fantasy pieces has more than a tiny fraction of the charm and style of The Goblin Emperor, nor even of a lot of midlist romantic fantasy. And so on.

  10. You’re looking at this whole scenario from an insider’s perspective: the problem is not that it’s abnormal for people to talk, but WHO is involved in which clique.

    I’m not an insider. I’m looking at it from the perspective of someone who knows how normal human people interact. You’re viewing it like people talking with one another is somehow an alien concept to you.

    And how do you figure that all of these personal and professional relationships are centered on WorldCon? More importantly, does that not reinforce my above point?

    No, it doesn’t. You don’t understand because you don’t understand that normal people have relationships with one another, and they communicate with one another in venues where that communication is facilitated. That’s why professional organizations sponsor conferences. It is why businesses hold meetings in which they draw people from different locales together. And so on. Worldcon is the glue that holds many relationships together, and without them the industry would be worse for wear.

    You know how Baen authors are wont to complain about how they are isolated from the industry? That’s in large part because most of them have elected not to attend Worldcon and shun the conventions that are ancillary to that event. They have isolated themselves from the industry by avoiding the centerpiece event where such connections are made and maintained. Without it, the landscape of science fiction and fantasy would be altered dramatically, and most SF fans would have no idea why.

    The fact that you’re treating Turncoat as a conversion parable is pretty entertaining all by itself, given that one could interpret the AI’s response as a heterodox interpretation of the scripture presented.

    Converting and turning against the soulless AI in favor of saving humanity is heterodox? The message of the story is Christianity saves even the soulless. No wonder you don’t feel the heavy message laden blows about your head and shoulders. You’re a lost cause, too deep in your own sea of delusion to see the water you are swimming in.

  11. Inferior to what, exactly?

    The short fiction works are inferior to works that appeared in the same issues of Analog that most of them appeared in.

    In a Stone House by Michael Flynn appeared in the June 2014 issue of Analog. It is the worst story in that issue, and almost drags the entire issue down like a millstone. The other novelette in the issue The Homecoming by J.T. Sharrah is markedly superior to Flynn ‘s offering.

    The Triple Sun appeared in the July/August 2014 issue of Analog. It isn’t the worst story in the issue, but there are several others like Who Killed Bonnie’s Brain?, Hot and Cold and Code Blue Love that are substantially better.

    If the stories your slate nominated weren’t even the best stories in the magazine they appeared in, then your slate is an inferior collection of material.

  12. I’m saying you’re proving an SP point: that the Hugos claim to be an award for wider fandom, but are actually an award for the narrow WorldCon fandom. So the SP supporters and organizers really ARE the barbarians at the gate.

    It is a statement of fact that the Hugo Awards belong to Worldcon. The name and rocket are service marks of Worldcon through the World Science Fiction Society. All Hugo voters must be members of Worldcon.

    The reputation of the Hugo Awards as the most prestigious award in SF/F and something that belongs to fandom is one that has been earned over the decades in the eyes of many people.

    I see nothing exclusionary here, nor do I see anyone outside the gates. The Puppies bought memberships and are part of Worldcon now. They were not excluded.

  13. S1AL:

    “I get it, you hate Vox Day with the fiery burning passion of a thousand suns. But the obsession with him around here is… well, 1 part sad, 1 part hilarious, 2 parts misguided – shake well, serve on the rocks.”

    I find absolutely nothing hilarious in this. Beale has tried to make a hero of the man who was shooting at my friend, trying to kill him. Who killed 77 persons. What is it you find hilarious in this? What is it you find misguided in reacting with anger towards this? Do you think I should be happy that he wants my friends dead?

  14. S1AL: “Mike Glyer – Inferior to what, exactly?”

    As you know, Vox Day, the maker of one slate now plans to vote Three Body Problem in preference to anything on his slate. So how how about starting there?

  15. S1AL – Inferior to what, exactly?

    Other work in the same field. Anything from the Rogues anthology for one. There was a MilSF and Space Opera anthology from Baen discussed just the other day on this site that had several better stories in it. Had Torgersen or Day been nominating for quality rather than for connections, friends, or colleagues it might’ve been better.

  16. Aaron – You can stop with the armchair psychology, now. It’s cute, but you don’t have the first clue about how “normal” I am, or what my relationships are like.

    The fact that you think WorldCon is the “centerpiece event” of the SFF industry says it all. WorldCon is a tiny event, attended by a tiny number of people. It’s insular, cliquish, and apparently disconnected from the bigger world where the are literally hundreds of millions of SFF fans, 99.9% of whom do not even know that WorldCon exists, or are only peripherally aware of it.

    As for Turncoat, I’m referring to the AI’s interpretation of the verse presented, which is from Isaiah, and might mean the exact opposite of how the AI interprets it, depending on how you read the story (i.e. it’s a negative rhetorical question, and he reads it as a positive philosophical question). The fact that you think that makes it a “message” about “conversion” tells me flat-out that you’re confused about something in the story.

    More importantly, it tells me that you are emphasizing a single paragraph and elevating it to the central premise, then declaring it to be the “message” of the story. Given that the story itself is far more about *what it means to be human*, I don’t think you *get* the story at all. More importantly, I don’t think that the purported messages of these stories are anything like what you apparently see in them.


    Bruce Baugh – Kloos was a Puppy nominee. Oops.

    Furthermore – which “sit down and talk fantasy” puppy nominees do you mean? What comparison are you making here?


    rcade – Apparently you still don’t understand my point. To a lot of the people here, yes, the loss of WorldCon would probably range from significant annoyance to huge personal issue. But to say that such people constitute “fandom” is to be stuck 40 years in the past. Fandom, the collective mass people who are fans of SFF, has moved on and doesn’t even know what WorldCon is on the whole.

    What is personally important is not what is generally important. WorldCon is, I’m sure, personally important to a few thousand people. It is generally unimportant or even irrelevant to literal millions.

  17. It’s cute, but you don’t have the first clue about how “normal” I am, or what my relationships are like.

    Either your misunderstanding of normal human relationships is the result of your inability to understand them, or you are lying about your interpretation of the events that happened. Which is it? Are you socially stunted or a liar?

    The fact that you think WorldCon is the “centerpiece event” of the SFF industry says it all. WorldCon is a tiny event, attended by a tiny number of people. It’s insular, cliquish, and apparently disconnected from the bigger world where the are literally hundreds of millions of SFF fans, 99.9% of whom do not even know that WorldCon exists, or are only peripherally aware of it.

    You don’t have to know that Worldcon exists in order to be affected by its loss. You don’t seem to understand that a relatively small event can have far reaching ramifications. The fact that you don’t understand this tells me that you don’t understand how much of the world works.

    As for Turncoat, I’m referring to the AI’s interpretation of the verse presented, which is from Isaiah, and might mean the exact opposite of how the AI interprets it, depending on how you read the story (i.e. it’s a negative rhetorical question, and he reads it as a positive philosophical question). The fact that you think that makes it a “message” about “conversion” tells me flat-out that you’re confused about something in the story.

    The story is about conversion no matter what the Isaiah verse “normally” means.

    More importantly, it tells me that you are emphasizing a single paragraph and elevating it to the central premise, then declaring it to be the “message” of the story.

    That’s all it takes in many cases. In addition to not understanding how human relationships work and not understanding how a small event can have big ripple effects, you don’t seem to be very good at reading either.

  18. Stevie @ 6:06 pm said-

    The Rabid slate is led by a US man living in Europe because he has profound legal problems, due to his father currently residing in a US prison for tax evasion and an attempt to have the Judge at his trial murdered because God had told him to.

    There is no evidence linking VD/TB to his father’s activities, other than a statement that on of the four sons of Robert Beale aware is their father’s accounts are empty.

    That does not mean TD/VD:

    participated in his father’s tax evasion.
    participated in his father’s effort to intimidate the judge.
    hid money for his father.

    Anyone who is making such an allegation is making rank bad faith asssertions and should be ashamed of themselves. A son is not responsible for the crimes of his father. To assert otherwise is to make every reader here responsible for the bad acts of their worse family members. It’s dishonest and disgusting.

    TD/VD is responsible for his own actions.

    Meredith @ 6:42 pm said-

    I think Day has enough taint because of his own views that any smeared on him (unfairly or otherwise) because of his father won’t even show up.

    Until recently, no one has accused TB/VD of crimes. Stevie and others are headed that direction, which is pathetic.

    Ann Somerville @ 6:43 pm-

    When the son is profiting from the father’s crimes, as TB is widely believed to be (by using money his father sent out of the country to illegally avoid tax on it.)

    So you are convicting him based on rumor and/or speculation. That’s pathetic.

    Why does this argument even make sense? TB/VD was a member of a band that had multiple Top 40 hits. He made a video game that sold more than a million copies. He allegedly settled (per him) a case with another video game company for a very large amount. Anyone looking at just those three data points might logically conclude that TB/VD has more than enough of his own money. There is no reason to suspect him of living off of his father’s ill-gotten gains.

    Stevie @ 6:53 pm-

    Since around the time the Bible said they did. And the Bible was big on that one…

    So I assume you’ll be the first to line up to stone those with life-styles the Bible disapproves? Or are you just being a hypocrite?

    XS @ 8:14 pm-

    VD has chosen to live off his daddy’s stolen money, hence why he can’t set foot in the US.

    That isn’t “sins of the father”, that’s VD’s sin.

    Again, a pathetic attempt to smear VD/TB without any evidence. What is with you people?

    Aaron @ 8:18 pm-

    Because tax authorities know that Robert Beale moved money out of the country, and the trail leads to accounts that his sons had access to which the sons now say are empty.

    So the sons had access to their father’s account.

    And the sons say the father’s accounts are empty.

    Somehow equates to VD/TB stealing and/or living off of his father’s money.

    You guys are either deeply ignorant or deeply dishonest. Take your pick.

    Glenn Hauman @ 10:00 pm- “Supposed” as I’ve only seen reference to him being charged with trying to intimidate the judge, not that he was convicted of it.

    Ann Somerville @ 10:10 pm- If talking about VH makes you sick, maybe you should stop?

    VD has said plenty that can be disagreed with and debated. He has said things that some have found offensive. Fair enough. But to accuse him of being complicit in the crimes of his father demonstrates your own intellectual dishonesty.

    Bruce Baugh @ 12:32 am- Last I checked, the Puppies nominated Kloos. He declined. So he’s a poor example of what they kept off the ballot.

  19. Hampus Eckerman – You know, Mussolini was a hero to a lot of Italians. Hitler was a hero to a lot of Germans. Stalin was a hero to a lot of Russians.

    The concept that Anders Breivik might be regarded as a hero in Norway isn’t even remotely far-fetched, especially after a clash of civilizations. It takes an extreme ignorance of history to not grasp that fact.

    But none of that has anything to do with the obsession about Vox Day. There are a couple dozen commentators here who can’t seem to handle going even a couple of days without spouting off about him. That IS hilarious.


    Matt Y – Relative to what? I can’t make comparisons unless I know which works and categories you are referencing.


    Mike Glyer – So a really good work wasn’t on the slate… what is your point, exactly? That *a* work was missed? I haven’t gotten around to reading it (or most of the novels) yet, so I can’t judge it on a personal level. But saying that some of the novels in one of the categories are inferior to a single work in that category does not automatically mean that ALL of the puppy nominees in ALL of the categories are inferior to ALL other potential nominees.


    Aaron – So what were your nominees for the novelette category? What are your alternatives to the nominated stories?

  20. Somehow equates to VD/TB stealing and/or living off of his father’s money.

    Given that the IRS would very much like to have a talk with him should he set foot in the U.S., it explains why he’s in Europe and not North America.

    Glenn Hauman @ 10:00 pm- “Supposed” as I’ve only seen reference to him being charged with trying to intimidate the judge, not that he was convicted of it.

    Here is Beale’s appeal from his conviction under 18 U.S.C. § 372. Note, the conviction was upheld on appeal.

  21. Apparently you still don’t understand my point.

    We’re perfectly clear on what you’re trying to say. It’s just wrong.

    No one calls “the collective mass [of] people who are fans of SFF” fandom except when they are making an attempt to diminish the importance of fandom institutions such as Worldcon.

    If you truly believed Worldcon was unimportant, you wouldn’t be participating in these discussions about the convention and the awards it created.

    You’re engaging in a bit of sophistry to make it seem like you speak for millions, just like Richard Nixon always thought he spoke for the “silent majority.”

  22. So what were your nominees for the novelette category? What are your alternatives to the nominated stories?

    My nominating ballot in the novelette category was:

    Marielena by Nina Allen
    From the Nothing, with Love by Project Itoh
    Steppin’ Razor by Maurice Broaddus
    Wine by Yoon Ha Lee
    A Guide to the Fruits of Hawai’i by Alaya Dawn Johnson

  23. Anybody who thinks that Worldcon is unimportant is welcome to not give a damn about the Hugos.

    If you are lobbying to get a friend of yours named to the Baseball Hall of Fame, you can’t turn around and say that professional baseball is unimportant. Well, you can, but you look silly doing so.

  24. The concept that Anders Breivik might be regarded as a hero in Norway isn’t even remotely far-fetched …

    If you genuinely believe that, your views on the subject are as offensive as Day’s. Breivik went to an island full of young people and massacred 69 of them with a gun, including 55 in their teens. He killed another 8 with a bomb.

    To say that he might be regarded as a hero is to suggest there might be something heroic about his actions. That view is utterly depraved.

  25. If you compare the Puppies slate in short fiction to Jonathan Strahan’s picks for his Best of the year anthology or the Nebula nominees, it’s very obvious to me that the Puppies picks are clearly inferior.

    The Grand Jete by Rachel Swirsky, Covenant by Elizabeth Bear, Cold Wind by Nicola Griffith, A Guide to the Fruits of Hawai’i by Alaya Dawn Johnson, We Are All Completely Fine by Daryl Gregory, Moriabe’s Children by Paolo Bacigalupi – all were much better than any Puppy nominee I’ve tried so far. No wonder, since they were chosen based on their quality, not on whether they were written or published by a buddy of Brad Torgersen or how much getting on the ballot would annoy the SJWs.

  26. Aaron – Are you done trying to diagnose me with sociopathy and/or extreme anti-social tendencies? Seriously, there’s a professional out there who’s vomiting and he doesn’t know why.

    You don’t seem to understand that WorldCon is tiny. It really is. Even with regards to the specific attendees who are highly placed or very connected in the SFF publishing world, the collapse of WorldCon would do little or nothing at the professional level. It’s just not that important.

    If it collapsed, GoT would still be a TV show. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 would still get made. Tor would still publish books. Orbit would still publish books. Baen would still publish books. Heck, Penguin would still republish a bunch of classics every year.

    Connections, acquaintances, and friendships would survive or be rearranged or be replaced. Heck, you’d probably see some new Cons, some new trade events… WorldCon might have once been pretty central to the coordination of the SFF publishing community, back before email and easy national transportation and Star Wars bringing SFF into the mainstream of the whole of the United States and most of the Western world.

    As for Turncoat – no, really? You mean the story that has a title referencing an individual changing sides is a conversion story? Man, I am super impressed that you managed to puzzle that out on your own. Without a reference to a Bible verse I’m not sure any of us would have gotten that…

  27. S1AL: “But saying that some of the novels in one of the categories are inferior to a single work in that category does not automatically mean that ALL of the puppy nominees in ALL of the categories are inferior to ALL other potential nominees.”

    That you have to resort to imputing a logical fallacy to me that I didn’t commit makes for a very weak answer. Yes, I am sure there were stories published in 2014 that were worse than some on the slate. How does that help your case? It’s not an award for being marginally professional.

  28. S1AL – Relative to what? I can’t make comparisons unless I know which works and categories you are referencing.

    Short story, Novella, and Novelette.

    Anderson’s Novel nomination is also one that is worse than many books. Skin Game is debatable, I enjoyed it but it wasn’t even the best Dresden book nor in the top ten of 2014 books I’ve read though I can see why others liked it. Still neither of those two I’d put in the same league as Tigerman, The First 15 Lives of Henry August, Station Eleven, Cibola Burn, A Better World, City of Stairs, etc.

    If the slated works in the Hugo packet were among the best things you’ve read released in 2014, well damn, that’s just sad.

  29. Are you done trying to diagnose me with sociopathy and/or extreme anti-social tendencies?

    You keep displaying them, right here, for everyone to see.

    You don’t seem to understand that WorldCon is tiny.

    You don’t seem to understand that the number of people who attend has next to nothing to do with its importance. You seem to think that numbers of attendees is the sole measure that matters, and it isn’t. When you figure that out, you’ll be ready to join the grown-up table.

    You mean the story that has a title referencing an individual changing sides is a conversion story?

    Its a Christian conversion story. There’s a difference, and an important one. It is message fiction at its most blatant.

  30. S1AL:

    Are you for REAL trying to say that Breivik is a hero for many norwegians?? You are desillusional. He’s only a hero for neo-nazis and only other neo-nazis would get the idea of anything else.

    Out of respect for Mike, I will not publish the words you are worth.

  31. If it collapsed, GoT would still be a TV show. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 would still get made. Tor would still publish books. Orbit would still publish books. Baen would still publish books.

    You don’t know what works would be produced and what SF/F publishers would exist without the influence of long-running fandom institutions such as Worldcon.

    The assumption that Game of Thrones didn’t need fandom would likely be disputed by George R. R. Martin, whose love for the community is as great as any pro’s.

    Marvel Comics almost died in the ’90s and was extremely dependent on hard-core fans. I was in comics fandom back then and they did a lot of marketing aimed directly at us.

    Tor, Orbit and Baen all market to fandom and support fandom institutions. I doubt this is all meaningless to their bottom line.

  32. rcade –

    1) Good job ignoring the comparisons I made with regards to Breivik. I could go on citing even more unsavory individuals who have been lauded as heroes (Cromwell? Mao Zedong? Guevara? Julius Caesar?). History can speak for itself. Vile people have been regarded as heroes with consistent regularity – I’m sure that the Viking warriors who raided, pillaged, plundered, and kidnapped their way across the coasts of Europe were often seen as heroes by their own people.

    2) Once again, you’re confusing the personal with the general. I signed up as a Supporting Member for the packet and the chance to vote. As such, I am invested in WorldCon at present. Therefore it has some importance to me, personally. It’s also interesting to me to see why people think the things they do, and why this so easily became such a hot issue in certain circles.

    That doesn’t mean I’m going to make the mistake of expecting that importance to translate to the population at large (meaning wider fandom).

    3) Read Wine, wasn’t impressed. I’ll read the rest of them that I can find, but if that’s your opinion of a superior work, I doubt we’re going to agree.

  33. Read Wine, wasn’t impressed.

    Wine, by itself, is superior to every Puppy nominated novelette combined.

  34. @Christian

    “Tom Doherty’s statement is a valiant attempt to rise above the conflict, reprimand Irene Gallo, and at the same time refute puppy dogma.”

    No, it wasn’t. It was a craven, sniveling attempt to placate the horde of howler monkeys and it failed miserably.

  35. @Steve Moss

    “Why does this argument even make sense? TB/VD was a member of a band that had multiple Top 40 hits. He made a video game that sold more than a million copies.”

    This is disingenuous/wrong. He was a ‘member’ of Psykosonik for only one of their records and he didn’t actually /play/ or /sing/ anything. And his video games were, as far as I can tell, miserable failures. The PC version of Rebel Moon Rising mostly made it to users by being a thrown in to the Creative Labs 3D Blaster PCI package.

    As usual, VD is mostly a legend in his own mind.

  36. @S1A1

    “The concept that Anders Breivik might be regarded as a hero in Norway isn’t even remotely far-fetched, especially after a clash of civilizations. It takes an extreme ignorance of history to not grasp that fact.”

    Possible. That doesn’t change the fact that anyone who DOES regard him as a hero is beneath contempt.

  37. Hampus Eckerman – I’m not sure what the issue is here, but I said “could be.” Future potential. History has demonstrated that it is a particular vice of humanity to laud as heroes the violent and vile. Remember: there are Neo-Nazis now because the Nazis were popular at one time in the past. Hitler was Time‘s Man of the Year. Twice. Don’t be fooled into thinking that such a thing can never happen again. History is not mono-directional.

    Aaron – Turncoat is no more a “Christian” conversion story than Supernatural is a “Jewish” urban fantasy series, and there are a LOT more references in the latter than the former.

    This is especially true if the verse was used in a heterodox fashion. Do you not get the implication there?

    I’m not assuming that there wouldn’t be any ripple effects if WorldCon collapsed. I am assuming, based on observable evidence, that it would have almost no effect on wider fandom and long-term production. This isn’t 1970. Fandom is huge. The WorldCon institutionalized fandom is not what it once was. SFF is established. It’s here to stay. WorldCon is scaffolding, not foundation.

    Mike Glyer – The original statement was that the slate filled the shortlist with “inferior works.” Are you saying that the statement was only that the slate works were inferior to a few specific pieces in each category, or that they were inferior to any other significant works in those categories, or that they were inferior to a LOT of other works in those categories? It appears to me that it’s either the middle or the latter. If it’s exclusively the former, then it’s largely irrelevant because pretty much everyone has noted that very few people think the “best” work of the year wins the award.

    So, what are you actually saying? I don’t know, but the statement that a single work is viewed by Vox Day as superior to his original choices is largely meaningless.

    Matt Y – I haven’t read even most of the slated works at this point… probably about half. I’m asking for alternatives so I can see if there’s an actual difference in quality or if it’s a matter of taste. So far, every time I’ve asked for alternatives the ones I’ve read haven’t impressed me at all, so I’m thus far unconvinced.

  38. I am assuming, based on observable evidence, that it would have almost no effect on wider fandom and long-term production.

    You are assuming, based on not understanding fandom, the industry, or Worldcon itself. Given that your ability to parse fiction seems to be lacking, it is no wonder that you don’t understand Worldcon or its importance.

  39. Inferior to what, exactly?

    Both Skin Game and The Dark Between the Stars were inferior to The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August and The Peripheral, two novels I nominated but which didn’t make it to the ballot.

    Zombie Nation is inferior to She-Hulk Volume 1: Law and Disorder, one of my nominees. Admittedly, that isn’t to the taste of most Hugo voters, but I find Zombie Nation to also be inferior to a substantial portion of qualifying works released last year, from superhero to literary to webcomic.

    Mea culpa, but I didn’t nominate short fiction or related works. I will say that this year’s selections were, with perhaps one or two exceptions, inferior to what I’ve read over the past few years in my Hugo packets. This comparison includes If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love and Ponies, two stories I strongly disliked and placed below No Award. As irritating as I found both of them, they’re still better-written and better-conceptualized than what the puppies had to offer. And I think that is a relevant comparison, because if there were no better works in those categories this year, that strongly supports my vote of No Award.

  40. FWIW, Beale has been living abroad since 2000 with no visible means of support other than family money. Whether some of that comes from unknown Swiss bank accounts is uncertain, but not out of the question given that his father, Robert Beale, did have at least two accounts there that came to light in the years leading up to his arrest and subsequent conviction on tax evasion charges.

    FYI, Theodore Beale did wage a PR campaign back in 2003 against the Minnesota Department of Revenue over his father’s tax evasion, but with no success obviously. Truth be told, it was pretty embarrassing and a waste of money. But I guess there was money to waste at least.

  41. Good job ignoring the comparisons I made with regards to Breivik. I could go on citing even more unsavory individuals who have been lauded as heroes …

    Why is this the hill you’re choosing to die on? What aspect of Breivik’s massacre of all those teens do you think might be regarded someday as heroic, and what kind of people would regard it as such?

  42. ‘Hampus Eckerman – I’m not sure what the issue is here, but I said “could be.”’

    Oh you sea-lion you.

  43. rcade – People. Ordinary, everyday people. Why? Because he took a stand and took action for something he believed. Regardless of how horrific or how immoral his actions were, if there is a clash of civilizations… well, far worse people have been idolized. I hope that it never happens, but history tells me that it really wouldn’t take all that much.

  44. Frankly, after reading Tom Doherty’s statement, it looks to me like he’s campaigning for this year’s Neville Chamberlain award.

    He’d have been better off keeping his mouth shut.

    I’ve gone back to my ballot, and de-listed every puppy slate item from below “No Award.” I have no desire to have them even appear on my ballot. (And yes, I know it won’t have any effect on the Dramatic Presentation nominees, but I’m doing it anyway.)

  45. S1AL: Hitler was Time‘s Man of the Year. Twice. Don’t be fooled into thinking that such a thing can never happen again.

    Time selects a Person of the Year as the individual who had the greatest impact on that year–for better of for worse. The selection of Hitler as Man of the Year for 1938 (I don’t believe he was selected twice) does not mean that the magazine’s editors considered him a hero. You’re undercutting your own argument again, I’m afraid–and it does seem like a fairly silly argument to begin with, to me. If VD really does believe that shooting unarmed schoolchildren will one day be regarded as the equivalent of heroically repelling invaders . . . then he’s saying that the future will be filled with people who believe really stupid lies/inaccuracies about historical events, and there, I’m sorry, but there is no way I can parse his comment as meaning something like that.

  46. Regardless of how horrific or how immoral his actions were, if there is a clash of civilizations… well, far worse people have been idolized.

    There is no one so evil that no other evil or depraved people would claim them as a hero.

    Do you think Day is saying Breivik might be a hero someday, but only because some people in the future will be depraved enough to laud him?

    Of course not.

    He’s saying that there’s something in Breivik’s actions he finds heroic.

    Ordinary, everyday people. Why? Because he took a stand and took action for something he believed.

    Heroism is meaningless if all it takes is for someone to qualify is “take a stand” for “something he believed.”

    Timothy McVeigh believed something. Adam Lanza believed something. Ordinary people do not regard them as heroes. Depraved people do.

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