Tor Books publisher Tom Doherty issued a statement on Tor.com about Irene Gallo’s Facebook comments, distinguishing them as not representing the company or himself:
The Science Fiction community is populated with engaged authors and fans many of whom have strong and varied opinions on many subjects. Tor supports that diversity of viewpoints by publishing a widely varied group of authors and books through Tor/Forge and by posting a variety of material and reader comment on Tor.com.
Last month, Irene Gallo, a member of Tor’s staff, posted comments about two groups of science fiction writers, Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies, and about the quality of some of the 2015 Hugo Award nominees, on her personal Facebook page. Ms. Gallo is identified on her page as working for Tor. She did not make it clear that her comments were hers alone. They do not reflect Tor’s views or mine. She has since clarified that her personal views are just that and apologized to anyone her comments may have hurt or offended.
The Puppies groups were organized to support a slate of authors for the Hugo Awards, given annually for the best science fiction or fantasy works and achievements of the previous year. Media coverage of the two groups initially suggested that they were organized simply to promote white men, which was not correct. Each Puppies’ slate of authors and editors included some women and writers of color, including Rajnar Vajra, Annie Bellet, Kary English, Toni Weisskopf, Ann Sowards, Megan Gray, Sheila Gilbert, Jennifer Brozek, Cedar Sanderson and Amanda Green. Some of the authors on the Sad Puppy slate have been published by Tor and Tor.com, including Kevin J. Anderson, John C. Wright, Ed Lerner and Michael F. Flynn. Many, many Hugo Award nominees and winners are our authors too, including Kevin J. Anderson, John C. Wright and Katherine Addison this year and John Chu, John Scalzi, Cherie Priest and Jo Walton in past years, just to mention a few.
In short, we seek out and publish a diverse and wide ranging group of books. We are in the business of finding great stories and promoting literature and are not about promoting a political agenda
Tor employees, including Ms. Gallo, have been reminded that they are required to clarify when they are speaking for Tor and when they are speaking for themselves. We apologize for any confusion Ms. Gallo’s comments may have caused. Let me reiterate: the views expressed by Ms. Gallo are not those of Tor as an organization and are not my own views. Rest assured, Tor remains committed to bringing readers the finest in science fiction – on a broad range of topics, from a broad range of authors.
And Irene Gallo added this comment to her May 11 Facebook post:
About my Sad/Rabid Puppies comments: They were solely mine. This is my personal page; I do not speak on behalf of Tor Books or Tor.com. I realize I painted too broad a brush and hurt some individuals, some of whom are published by Tor Books and some of whom are Hugo Award winners. I apologize to anyone hurt by my comments.
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Oops, sorry, extra “there” in there . . .
The apologia for VD going on here is bordering on being as disgusting as the apologia VD himself indulges in.
S1AL, if you can’t see why people are rightly outraged against the stanning of Breivik, something is broken inside you. The fact that you would say such things to the face of someone whose friends were attacked speaks volumes about you.
Steve Moss, your denial of the obvious is truly astounding. VD’s refusal to set foot on US soil says more than you care to acknowledge.
And for the record, the Puppy nominees are subpar. Wisdom From My Internet isn’t even SFF.
History is full of depraved individuals. Civilizations from around the world engaged in ritualistic human sacrifice for centuries or even millennia. Custer was an American hero not so long ago.
That the civilization in which you live is decent and moral now does not mean that it will be in 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, or 100 years.
And yeah, Hitler was on the cover once, Stalin twice. I forgot which as which. But the point is not just that Time placed them there – it’s that they were lauded. People called them heroes. Humanity is foolish and short-sighted.
My issue with it was the claim of “no insider information” followed by an accurate statement that 3/5 novel nominees were puppies.
That doesn’t seem like quite the smoking gun you imagine it to be, given that the ballot as originally announced had 4 out of 5 slots filled by Puppy nominations, not 3. The reason that The Three Body Problem got added to the slate, thus bringing it to 3/5, is that Marko Kloos withdrew his story once the extent of Beale’s involvement became clear (his statement: http://www.munchkinwrangler.com/2015/04/15/a-statement-on-my-hugo-nomination/).
Stop picking on Beale! He never said that women should have acid thrown in their faces. All he said was that if someone threw acid in their faces, it would be a utilitarian good. Why are you horrible people misrepresenting him?
S1AL: Custer was an American hero “not too long ago” largely as the result of an intensive propaganda campaign led by his widow and supported by the US military and government for reasons of their own; the general public were lied to, more or less (and yes, I know it’s more complex than that, but still). This example implies that the general public is often wrong about contemporary figures and then history teaches them the truth . . . so, do you believe (as VD seems to) that the contemporary vilification of Breivik is possibly an error, and he will be vindicated by the truth of history?
Given that I’ve seen at least three people in the last twenty-four hours so far say that they’ve changed their minds and are No Awarding all the Puppy picks now, I wonder if VD would have served his cause better by waiting until after the Hugo voting closed to pitch a fit about Gallo.
Mind you, if he was struck by lightning he’d spend his last breath gasping that the storm played right into his hands, so it’s probably a waste of energy to speculate.
I hope Gallo’s holding up okay. I don’t know her personally, but her name comes up a lot in the Spectrum annual, usually associated with really cool work.
do you believe (as VD seems to) that the contemporary vilification of Breivik is possibly an error, and he will be vindicated by the truth of history?
I suspect that S1AL doesn’t know, because Beale hasn’t told him what to think yet.
XS – Are you going to be equally insulted on someone else’s behalf when I say that Osama bin Laden was a hero to many people? That there were monsters on both sides of the crusades who were considered heroes? Heck, the controversy over Christopher Columbus, also lionized as a hero.
Are you going to be equally insulted on someone else’s behalf when I say that Osama bin Laden was a hero to many people?
Yes. By murderous thugs and sociopaths. Do you mean by this comparison to say that Beale’s stanning for Brevik means that Beale is a murderous thug or sociopath?
Day is actively trying to destroy Irene Gallo’s career.
Have any of his pals among the Sads or Rabids raised objection to this?
Mary Frances – I suggest you make a note of Oliver Cromwell’s standing in Britain during and after his rule, both immediately after and now. Perhaps the contemporary and historical views of William Wallace would serve equally well. Napoleon’s legacy is also interesting. Genghis Khan is another one.
I could add thousands of names to these lists. I don’t pretend to be clairvoyant: history will make a judgment. What it will be, I do not know. Breivik is a monster and a murderer, but he’s hardly alone in his views. One large war between Europe and an Islamic power is all it would take to create favorable conditions for Breivik.
That’s the danger of allowing history to make a judgment: history is often wrong.
Another supportive post for Irene Gallo, from Jessica Price.
http://jessicalprice.tumblr.com/post/121118147583/i-stand-with-irene-gallo
Jeb Kinnison: The ever-present specter of Vox Day poisons almost all discussion, but “neo-Nazi” is just over-the-top.
You are either advertising your sloppiness or your lack of good faith in making this statement. Gallo did NOT call VD a “neo-Nazi”, she called him a “neo-nazi”.
The difference is significant, given the number of his toadies trying to distract by yelling that he doesn’t actually belong to any neo-Nazi organizations.
From what I’ve seen, calling VD a “neo-nazi” is both fair and defensible.
Steve Moss: There is no evidence linking VD/TB to his father’s activities, other than a statement that on of the four sons of Robert Beale aware is their father’s accounts are empty.
S1AL @ 3:02 pm: I’ve got a fairly good idea of Oliver Cromwell’s reputation, then and now, thank you. Ditto William Wallace’s. I’ll assume you mean Genghis Khan as a parallel. What all three of your examples have in common, I believe, is that they all had fairly lengthy, complex careers–which Breivik did not. For better or for worse, Breivik will be known for a single murderous act.
Are you really saying, as you seem to be implying, that a possible future war between Europe and Islam (which, by the way, was not the only enemy Breivik was seeking to attack) will lead that single murderous act to be one day judged as heroic? As an “opening shot” in a future war? Because if so, you’re postulating something that Josephine Tey dubbed “Tonypandy,” in The Daughter of Time (Francis Bacon, “Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority”). I’d kind of trust the eventual judgement of history, myself.
In any case, the point is now become irrelevant, because I don’t see how you can argue that VD believes that the judgement of his hypothetical future Norwegians praising Breivik will be false. Just the opposite, I’d say–he seems to me to be saying that the future or Europe will justify Breivik’s actions, revealing him to be a genuine hero. I won’t ask if you’d agree or not, since you’ve already said that you find Breivik’s actions to be vile. Unless–do you believe that there will be a future war against Islam, far-right Zionism, and feminism that will justify Breivik’s actions? Do you believe that Breivik was/is prescient? Or that Day is? Because if so, I don’t agree.
S1AL:XS – Are you going to be equally insulted on someone else’s behalf when I say that Osama bin Laden was a hero to many people? That there were monsters on both sides of the crusades who were considered heroes? Heck, the controversy over Christopher Columbus, also lionized as a hero.
You bet your ass I will, sociopath.
XS – If the observation that human beings are fallible creatures who often laud murderers and monsters makes me a sociopath, so be it. I would rather recognize the world and its inhabitants for what they are than continue in the bliss of ignorance.
Mary Frances – You know what, here’s a link to what Vox Day had to say about Breivik: http://voxday.blogspot.com/search?q=breivik – VD refers to him as a “lunatic” and a “Christian in the sense of Christendom, not Jesus Christ.” I don’t know where you got the idea that VD thinks the man is a hero – well, I have an idea of where that originated, but unlike some people I’m not interested in armchair psychology.
Again, I’m not saying it will or won’t happen. I’m not prescient. But I *do* recognize the possibilities inherent in such a situation. It’s fortunate that I believe in a Judge, because I find history to be a poor substitute.
In the course of Cromwell’s life he’d been fairly well respected parliamentarian and puritan prior to the english civil wars, he then formed and ran the New Model Army (one of the most significant military organisations in british military history), he defeated the cavaliers in TWO back to back civil wars, got a king arrested, charged, arrested again, convicted and then executed for treason, then went on to defend england from a european invasion by beating the dutch at sea in 16X3 (as the monty python song puts it), committed one of the worst genocides in the entire history of the british isles during his invasion of Ireland whose shockwaves and repercussions are stilling being felt to this very day.
Then he returned to england and kicked out a military dictatorship that had banned christmas and gin, and thereafter kept a fairly decent and peaceful reign as Lord Protector by comparison to his predecessor and ancedents who called themselves “king” – england would have to kick out the stuarts AGAIN a king or two after chromwell because of bullshit they pulled after the protectorship.
I guess what I’m saying is, he wasn’t just a Call of Duty playing loser who shot a load of children in the face because of the jeeewwwwwwwws.
Cart off that corpse of a comparison of yours: The argument that carries it has no legs.
@Steve Moss: If Beale isn’t profiting from his father’s tax evasion, then why isn’t he suing the people who say he is for libel or defamation of character? Beale throws around threats of libel lawsuits like Shriners throw candy at a parade, but I’ve never heard him once…well, I’ve never actually heard of him filing a lawsuit, which indicates to me that he’s making idle threats because “I’ll sue you for libel” is big and scary sounding. But in this case, people are making a specific, factual assertion that he is engaged in an ongoing illegal activity to defraud the United States government. That would be both libelous and defamatory, unless true, because truth is an absolute defense against libel. The fact that Mister Libel Threat doesn’t file should tell you something.
Fred Davis – None of that in any way contradicts what I said: monsters are regularly treated as heroes. I gave historical examples, not comparisons. Grapes and watermelons are equally fruit.
CPaca: I consider you and Steve Moss to have balanced the books on the Robert Beale discussion now. What relevance does it have to Vox Day’s role in the Hugos or the sf field generally? Before you answer, consider — if some relative of Eric Flint, Jim C. Hines, John Scalzi, or anybody else you’d like to name had a comparable problem, would you treat it the same way?
@XS
“The apologia for VD going on here is bordering on being as disgusting as the apologia VD himself indulges in.”
This. God. Everything ranging from weak euphemisms:
“He has interesting ideas”
“He’s an agent provocateur”
“He has said things that SOME find offensive”
To deflection:
“The obsession with him is misguided”
To outright apologia:
“Who cares if he champions Breivik? Hitler was championed by a lot of Germans. Breivik took a stand and took action for something he believed in.”
Mike Glyer: What relevance does [Robert Beale] have to Vox Day’s role in the Hugos or the sf field generally?
Well, if Theodore started Castalia House with funds that Robert squirreled out of the US, that’s a biggie.
Mike Glyer said: “What relevance does it have to Vox Day’s role in the Hugos or the sf field generally? Before you answer, consider — if some relative of Eric Flint, Jim C. Hines, John Scalzi, or anybody else you’d like to name had a comparable problem, would you treat it the same way?”
Well, I think the serious question being asked is whether Beale profited from his father’s tax evasion, whether he is using the illegally-gained money to support his lifestyle as Professional Asshole, and (as a lesser but still vaguely relevant concern) if this is the reason that he never shows up at cons and has to confine his dickery to the Internet. I would say that this is a relevant topic for conversation, as I think Beale loses some of his moral high ground if he’s a fugitive from justice. 🙂
The question of his father, I’ll agree, is both not relevant and entirely settled.
Okay, I clicked on the link and read. VD also said, on May 5, 2012: I note that the French election results tend to support my assertion, in the immediate aftermath of the Utoya shootings, that Breivik’s actions would be seen as an early harbinger of popular nationalism rather than a tactical blunder that increased popular support for the multiculturalists.
And later, on August 10, 2013: You may recall that after the mass shooting of dozens of larval Labor politicians in Norway, there was a discussion of whether this would turn the Norwegian electorate to the right or to the left. Many predicted an anti-nativist backlash that would strengthen the ruling Norwegian Labor party and support its vision of a multicultural, multiethnic Norway. I, on the other hand, predicted that Breivik’s action would eventually be seen as a harbinger of Norway’s belated move towards the ethnic nationalism that is sweeping across most of Europe.
” . . . an early harbinger of popular nationalism?” ” . . . the mass shootings of dozens of larval Labor politicians in Norway“??? You know, I really don’t think I can stomach any more. I’m sorry. The second quote is referring to the upcoming Norwegian election, during which (so far as I can tell from a quick google) every political party denounced Breivik. I don’t know enough about Norwegian–or indeed European–politics to judge whether or not the eventual election results constituted a turn to the right and anti-immigration, as VD apparently believes, but I really don’t want to try to investigate VD’s beliefs any further. If he doesn’t see Breivik as a hero, or potentially a hero, he does seem to see him as someone, I don’t know . . . in the forefront of historical events? Potentially a hero, when people realize that immigration needs to be stopped? Or will inevitably be stopped, by violence if by no other means? Something like that.
S1AL, your argument just doesn’t make sense to me. If VD sees that Breivik is in the forefront of a national movement but also sees Breivik as a lunatic, then presumably VD should be condemning that national movement as one supported by lunatics and arguing in favor of stopping or mitigating it. If he genuinely believes that Breivik is a lunatic but believes that European multiculturalism is doomed and that anti-immigration movement is a Good Thing, he should be trying to disassociate the movement he supports from the lunatic. And if he doesn’t seem Breivik as in the forefront of a national movement, then why on earth is VD saying these things?
I, personally, do not believe that multiculturalism is doomed, or that being anti-immigration is good (I’m a child of immigrants, after all), but if I did, I certainly wouldn’t want to claim someone I believed was a lunatic as a forerunner!
Glenn Hauman: “Well, if Theodore started Castalia House with funds that Robert squirreled out of the US, that’s a biggie.”
Narrative is all it is. We’ve got half a dozen people here making up speculations they admit to having no facts to support, apart from Robert’s own troubles. It can’t be a biggie if nobody knows it’s true.
And while you’re busy with your fantasy source-and-application of funds exercise, maybe you should think about the money Vox may have made from those records, or that game. Why is it the only possible source of money for Castalia House must be illicit untaxed gains?
Mary Frances – Yeah, the whole situation is ugly. But from a purely practical statement, I suspect that VD is at least half correct. Anti-immigration stances have been adopted by more and more political parties throughout Europe. At this point in time, every single major British party is at least moderately anti-immigration.
Multiculturalism is, frankly, amongst the shoals. That’s just a simple observation, not a verdict. What Vox Day thinks the future holds, I do not know, but I’m not to keen on it at this point.
Mike Glyer: CPaca: I consider you and Steve Moss to have balanced the books on the Robert Beale discussion now. What relevance does it have to Vox Day’s role in the Hugos or the sf field generally?
Mike – second to last paragraph of the story I quoted is directly relevant to the quote from Steve regarding “evidence linking VD/TB to his father’s activities”.
Thanks, Mike. Beale is enough of a vile despicable person *without* having to Make Shit Up about him with no evidence.
Yeah, I think the narrative about the stolen tax money needs to be dropped unless someone shows actual evidence for it. Vox is a huge asshole, but he seems to have done well moneywise in his various jobs before he became a writer/publisher, and it’s not like Castalia is a huge venture, so he could plausibly fund it with his own money.
@S1AL
The SNP aren’t anti-immigration – and it’s one of the more admirable features of their approach. It doesn’t seem to have harmed them in Scotland.
Except, for example, in a little town called London, where it works rather well. The right wing have spent an immense amount of time demonizing multiculturalism as part of their fantasy of return to the days when the white man’s fart ruled the world, but there’s no reason to think that anyone except their more despicable followers actually believes the bigoted nonsense they spout. Demographically the racists are losing more ground with every passing year, both in Britain and the US. That’s reflected in the slow but sure change for the better in such things as the Hugos, which brings us back to the reason that the Puppies collectively got involved in their little exercise in rabid hysteria: the days of being mediocre but successful just because you were a white man are passing away. That’s a good thing for humanity at large and I believe that the long-term future is brighter because of it. Yes, there will be some raging and roaring from the right wing crazies like the Puppies, with help and cover from the occasional well-intentioned person who should know better, but it’s strictly a short-term phenomenon, nothing more.
S1AL:XS – If the observation that human beings are fallible creatures who often laud murderers and monsters makes me a sociopath, so be it. I would rather recognize the world and its inhabitants for what they are than continue in the bliss of ignorance.
No, what Beale did and what you’re excusing was more than noting that humanity can be fucked up and you damn well know it. He was painting the victims as villains in the making. He’s claiming that Breivik will be hailed a hero by a Norway that shall never be.
Go back to you cave and take your wishful apocalyptic fantasies with you. The rest of us have a future worth looking forward to and fighting for.
Aaron @ 1:02 pm-
Given that the IRS would very much like to have a talk with him should he set foot in the U.S., it explains why he’s in Europe and not North America.
What is the basis of your assertion that the IRS would like to speak to TB/VD? Or are you making things up?
Considering that both Finland and Italy have extradition treaties with the USA, I suspect that if the IRS thought TB/VD had committed a crime, they could put their hands on him. They haven’t.
Glenn Hauman @ 1:38 pm- The word “presumably” is a kicker, as the elder Beale was also earning millions.
rochrist @ 1:54 pm- Fair enough. I’m not a gamer so can only go by units sold.
XS @ 2:38 pm- There is no “apologia” going on for VD/TB. I am protesting, and feel much contempt for, those who accuse TB/VD of crimes (such as being an accessory to his father’s tax evasion) with no evidence. Relying on rumor, speculation, etc., to accuse someone you disagree with of a crime is indicative of a petty, pathetic soul, or a weak mind, or both, in my opinion.
There are currently over 6 million US citizens living abroad. Tens of thousands of US expatriates leave the US never to return. Are they all criminals also?
If you want to crucify TB/VD for his ideas, go for it. There is much to criticize and/or debate. But to accuse someone you disagree with of crimes is worse than pathetic.
rcade @ 3:01 pm- Are you seriously suggesting that those whom Irene Gallo described as either extreme right wing or neo nazis should rally to her defense?
CPaca @ 3:30 pm- And this means TB/VD is a criminal, why exactly? Robert Beale has 4 sons.
John Seavey @ 3:42 pm- I don’t know why TB/VD isn’t suing. You’d have to ask him. My suspicion is: 1) lawyers cost money and many with valid claims don’t sue for that reason; and, 2) the accusations are fairly recent, so he has plenty of time if he is so inclined.
I do believe that he sued a video game company once, and won, but I don’t have a cite for that.
And you are correct. An allegation of a serious or heinous crime, or dishonesty in business dealings, is defamation per se. Opinion is no defense, only truth. I’m no expert on defamation law, but alleging that he is complicit in tax fraud and threatening a judge, the gains of which he then used to fund his publishing business, probably fits 1 or 2 categories of defamation per se. I suspect many on here don’t understand the thin ice they are skating on.
Steve Moss: Considering that both Finland and Italy have extradition treaties with the USA, I suspect that if the IRS thought TB/VD had committed a crime, they could put their hands on him. They haven’t.
You’re assuming he’s in either of those countries. According to his LinkedIn profile, he’s in Switzerland.
Considering that both Finland and Italy have extradition treaties with the USA, I suspect that if the IRS thought TB/VD had committed a crime, they could put their hands on him.
Glyer has asked that this be dropped, so I will. I will just note that extradition treaties are not nearly as far-reaching or absolute as you seem to think they are.
I suspect many on here don’t understand the thin ice they are skating on.
As an actual practicing lawyer, my opinion of this statement is that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Steve Moss:Relying on rumor, speculation, etc., to accuse someone you disagree with of a crime is indicative of a petty, pathetic soul, or a weak mind, or both, in my opinion.
Good thing we’ve got solid evidence in the form of VD’s monstrous character then!
I assure you, the words of a VD defender mean so much regarding the nature of one’s soul and mind.
CPaca @ 3:30 pm- And this means TB/VD is a criminal, why exactly? Robert Beale has 4 sons. </i.
It's interesting you know this since it's not in his Wikipedia profile. And we know VD uses sockpuppets when he wants to steer conversations away from uncomfortable topics.
So – toadie or sockpuppet?