Two-time Hugo nominated fanwriter Mark Oshiro (Mark Watches Star Trek), ConQuesT’s Fan Guest of Honor in 2015, has publicly aired on Facebook his grievances about the racism, sexual harassment, and abuse he experienced at the con after working within the con’s complaint process produced no action.
In light of what I’ll reveal at the end, I find it more important than ever to talk about the persistent and pervasive racial and sexual abuse/harassment I was the victim of at ConQuesT because I did everything I was told to do in the event that I was harassed. I reported most of the events you’ll see described below, and I did not do so anonymously. I stuck my name on every incident report, partly because I was not afraid, but mostly because I wanted things to change. If putting my name on a report ensured that a better community could be built from my actions, then I felt it was worth it.
Alas, that does not seem to be the case.
ConQuesT is held annually over Memorial Day Weekend in Kansas City. The three-paragraph Behavior policy in effect at last year’s con began with clear expectations:
Behavior
ConQuesT is committed to offering a convention experience as free from harassment as we can make it for our members, regardless of characteristics such as gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, age, race, religion, nationality, or social class. We do not tolerate harassment of convention participants in any form. ConQuesT attendees violating these rules may be sanctioned or expelled from the convention without a refund, at the discretion of the convention organizers.
Before suffering any violations of the con’s behavior policy, Oshiro’s weekend as ConQuesT 46 Fan Guest of Honor got off to a rocky start because of poor hospitality. He was due a comp room but had to use his own card to register ‘til the committee straightened that out. The room was in the hotel’s secondary tower. He and his friend (now partner) were driven to a restaurant for the guest of honor dinner, but were not seated at the chairperson’s table with the rest of the GoH’s (George R.R. Martin, Nene Thomas, Brandon Sanderson, and Toastmaster Selina Rosen). At the end of the meal they were asked to pay, another mistake that had to be fixed. Oshiro says there were added reasons for his sensitivity about these problems.
As a brief aside, I wanted to provide some emotional context to this. Baize and I were the only people of color in this entire group, and both of us are gay. I’ve struggled my whole life with reading situations to see if I’m actually being discriminated against, and the fear that that had happened to us was particularly strong that whole dinner. We are both part of marginalized communities that had very little representation in this group, and it became impossible not to consider the possibility that we were treated differently because of it.
At Oshiro’s first program item he was sexually harassed – by the con’s toastmaster.
I was moderating a panel titled, “Are Fans More Open Minded?” The panel progressed wonderfully for about ten minutes before it was derailed and then never made it back to normal. Early into the panel, someone in the audience made a joke about the panelist Selina Rosen, who sat next to me on my left and was ALSO a Guest of Honor at the convention. They called her a princess, and in response, she stood up and pulled her pants down to her ankles. For the next few minutes, Selina, wearing nothing but men’s boxers, proceeded to periodically rub her bare leg against mine. At first, I thought she was merely bumping me, but she kept doing it, over and over, and if I looked at her while she was doing it, she would make a face at me.
I texted Keri O’Brien, the Vice Chair for the convention, and told her that Selina had taken off her pants again. (She had done so at ConQuesT 45.) Within a few minutes, Selina had pulled her pants back up and Keri arrived and pulled Selina out of the room. Selina returned, and she made the bulk of the remainder of the panel about how fandom was NOT open-minded because someone had reported her for removing her pants. Multiple things happened in response to this. In a strange sign of solidarity, another panelist, Robin Wayne Bailey, removed his OWN shirt and kept talking about his nice body and his big muscles. Selina tried to grill multiple members of the audience to determine if they had been the ones to report her, even going so far as to yell at anyone who chose to leave the room, accusing them of being a “rat.”
(Tiffany Robbins saw Rosen’s act in 2014 and wrote in ConQuesT 45: 10 Things I Learned From Selina Rosen – “8. Sometimes, it’s okay to pull your pants down to your ankles in a public setting.”)
Then Oshiro described how, later that night at a room party in the main hotel, his partner Baize was sexually and racially harassed. (The full text of Oshiro’s post appears below, following the jump.)
On Sunday he was the moderator on a panel titled, “Erasure is Not Equality” and had this experience:
This panel was specifically about the erasure of people of color in historical fiction, fantasy, and other genres. I was the only person on the panel who was not white. Furthermore, not one person on the panel seemed to understand the point of the panel, which was to talk about erasure. Instead, the conversation teetered between self-righteous back-patting and flat-out racism. Within the first five minutes of the start of the panel, I brought up a topic for us to discuss: how “historical accuracy” is often poorly used as a defense of the erasure of people of color. One panelist, Chris Gerrib, then began to talk about how people misunderstood history. The “Indian” people in Central America were already busy “killing each other” by the time the Spaniards arrived. When I asked for clarification, Gerrib confirmed that he believed that the Spaniards were “unfairly blamed” for the genocide of the indigenous cultures in Central America. I was so horrified by his continued talk of this ahistorical point that, after very little conversation, I asked that we change topic.
This set a tone for the remainder of the panel, which was easily the worst panel I have ever been a part of. All three of the white panelists confidently stated things that were simply not true; each of them kept saying “Indian” when they actually meant Native American or indigenous; every few minutes, more than half the audience was viscerally horrified by what the other panelists said. At one point, Jan Gephardt derailed the panel into talking about women instead of race and said that she was “happy to see any sort of women, like black or white or green.” Gerrib then chimed in with, “Or purple.” She also responded to a lengthy point that myself and an audience member made about the physical and emotional injury that can come from experiencing racism by reminding us that “racism is not real” because race “is just a social construct.” During a different conversation about how many authors mistakenly blur the line between different cultural groups, Chris Gerrib jokingly said, “Did you know that the Japanese aren’t the same as the Chinese?” Jan’s response? The Japanese and Chinese just think they’re different in their heads. She heavily implied that they were mistaken in this belief.
Oshiro told about several other disturbing comments on the panel. And he outlined another harassing experience he had at a fireworks viewing party. That night, he reported all of these incidents to committee members Keri O’Brien and Jesi Pershing.
They were both incredibly professional and sympathetic to myself and Baize, and I have nothing negative to say about that specific experience. They did exactly as they should: they made the two of us feel better, and they were very thorough in getting details about all of the above experiences. I was asked what I wanted done. I did not recommend that anyone get kicked out or un-invited for future years. I simply wanted two things:
1) That those I reported not be allowed on programming that triggered such a terrible response in them. (That was mostly in regards to the “Erasure is Not Equality” panel. A panel about race should not have one lone person of color on it.)
2) That someone tell these people that there’d been a report made about their behavior and that they should not behave in a way to make people feel so upset and unwanted.
I was realistic about what I wanted. You can’t make everything a teaching moment, and some people might not want to learn. But I needed someone to tell each of these people that their actions made someone else feel terribly unwelcome at the convention. I just wanted the conversation to be started.
Oshiro completed about seven incident reports and signed them.
I was told that the concom would discuss them, and that, at the very least, some action would be taken, either a notification about their behavior and a warning, OR people would not be invited back for programming in the future.
Months went by. Jesi Pershing, in her official capacity as part of the concom, would give me periodic updates. Sometimes, if I saw her at another con, I would ask her what the status of my reports were. She had recommended specific courses of action in response to my incident reports, and [convention chair Kristina Hiner] seemed to agree to them. But last month, she finally told me that, nearly eight months after I’d reported multiple people, ConQuesT and Kristina Hiner had done absolutely nothing with my reports.
In contrast, at another convention where he experienced a problem, the committee immediately resolved his complaint:
Harassment is unfortunately a part of my experience at SF/F conventions. Not at all of them, but at most of them, something happens to me. I’m an outspoken queer Latinx, and it’s inevitable. However, since ConQuesT, every con staff that I’ve had to make a report to has dealt with my report quickly and fairly. At ConFusion this year, the concom dealt with my incident report in two hours. Meaning they spoke to the person and that person apologized to my face within two hours.
Oshiro recognized that ConQuesT was not going to take action, and decided it was time to go public.
And a month ago, after she told Oshiro about the committee’s inaction, Jesi Pershing left the committee, as she explained today on Facebook:
Shortly after the ConQuesT 2015 ended, I typed up the incident reports I had taken, along with my recommended follow-up for each incident, and passed them along to the chair. My understanding was that she agreed with the actions I recommended, and that the Board did as well. The actions I recommended either needed to come from the Chair or Board, or required certain decisions to be made by the Chair or Board before I could enact them. This is where things stalled out. I heard that the Chair and Board agreed with what I had recommended…and then I basically heard nothing.
I inquired several times, both in email and in person, over the next several months, as to where things stood, whether anything had been done, what the hold up was. At one point, it was expressed to me that the Chair was wondering, since we hadn’t done anything by now (I believe this was about four months after the con), should we even bother at this point? To which I gave an emphatic “YES” and was once again under the impression that action would be taken. It never was.
As Mark relates in his post, he was asking me for updates during this time. I let him know that a course of action had been agreed upon on (early on in the process when I thought that action being agreed upon meant action would be taken), and then, as time went on, I would have to tell him that, no, to my knowledge, nothing had been done. Still nothing. Still nothing.
In January, I had a sudden lightning bolt epiphany that, if nothing had happened up to this point, nothing was going to happen. I let Mark know that, in my opinion, the con was never going to take action on his reports, and that I was stepping down from the committee.
Combating harassment in our community is an issue that is very important to me – I’ve worked on writing and implementing Codes of Conduct at multiple conventions. When I take on a role like this at a convention, I feel that I am making a promise – a promise that complaints will be taken seriously and that, if warranted, action will be taken. I cannot work for a con that has made me break that promise, which is why I stepped down from the committee.
Keri O’Brien, who has stayed on as the 2016 ConQuesT chairperson, made this comment on Oshiro’s Facebook post:
I have never felt comfortable talking from the perspective of a whole group of people. That is not something I think I can easily do here. I am also the current chair of ConQuesT in Kansas City. A good friend of mine, Mark Oshiro, told his story today. This needed to happen I feel. There were some horrible things that happened last year and they did not get the attention they deserved. This post is part apology. Mark Oshiro and Baize Latif White should not have found out 9 months later that nothing had happened. This was a mistake, a terrible one. Caused by a series of miscommunications over the course of those months. The reasons are not as important as the hurt the mistake and miscommunication caused. ConQuesT is a very old convention but has only very very recently instated any sort of behavior policy. ConQuesT 46 was one of the first years that formal reports were taken in under this system. It was not handled well, at all. But this does not mean that it cannot learn from those mistakes. As chair for this year, it is my responsibility to ensure that any reports taken at con are dealt with in ways that respect our membership and our policies. Thank you for taking the time to read this, Keri O’Brien
O’Brien is just one of hundreds of fans who left comments on Oshiro’s Facebook page. Among them was Chris Gerrib who set out to apologize, only getting it right on the second try after Oshiro answered his first attempt, “I don’t se an apology here.” Gerrib wrote in his initial comment:
Since I was mentioned by name in the original post, I feel I should respond. I want to apologize. What I *intended* to say was that the Inca and Aztec empires were unpopular with other native tribes, and that the Spanish used that unpopularity to form an army with themselves at the head. I did not communicate that correctly, and I’m sorry. I don’t recall saying that the Spanish were unfairly blamed for anything, but if I said or implied otherwise I was wrong. Much of the current issues with Central and South America can be traced to bad Spanish decisions and/or conduct.
Then he followed up:
I am sorry you were miserable on the panel, and I’m sorry what I said caused that. My statement at the time was in error.
(Gerrib also discussed this at File 770 and in a similar comment on Vox Day’s post about Oshiro’s revelation.)
Other notable responses include K. Tempest Bradford’s “Expect More From Your Regional Convention”:
Kansas City fans have pointed out that it is the very essence of a local con. Most folks running it and putting people on panels know each other well and know the panelists. Robin Wayne Bailey is a local and, from what I can gather, a regular at that con. Selina Rosen, who pulled down her pants, is apparently a serial pants taker off-er at that very con. Yes, this is a small local con. That means it’s probably even easier for programming volunteers to know that they’ve staffed a panel about diversity and erasure with one person of color and a bunch of problematic white folks who are prone to undressing at the slightest provocation.
And Rachel Caine is calling upon audiences not to let things slide, in “Dear Regional SFF Conventions: Enough Already”
But you know what? It’s not necessarily the fault of the volunteers throwing conventions. Audiences and panelists must hold each other accountable if fandom is going to continue as it began. ConComs are not gods. They can’t vet moderators, they can’t interview panelists about every panel topic to see if they’re qualified. They are organizers of a show for which they don’t get paid, and while they do shoulder the burden for responding to bad behavior, WE are responsible for responding immediately to the bad behavior in the first place. (I have been guilty of letting things slide, of trying to play “can’t we all get along,” of not pushing myself hard enough to be articulate and responsible. And I’m sorry. If you see me falling short or saying dumbass things, stand up and say so. I will learn and grow as a person from that discussion.)
Surprisingly, Oshiro says he’s still going to the Worldcon in Kansas City this year.
¶
Mark Oshiro gave general permission to share his Facebook post; the full text follows the jump.
TRIGGER WARNING: For extended, detailed talk of racism, sexual harassment, abuse
This has not been an easy post for me to write. I’m keeping the introduction of it relatively short because I’ve got a lot of ground to cover. Over the past nine months or so, the events of my weekend at ConQuesT 46 have haunted me, and recent events inspired me to finally talk about my experience. I have spoken to nearly fifteen people, most of whom are a part of the SF/F community, about what happened to me so that I could get some insight. Was what I experienced wrong? Was I imagining the intensity of the weekend? Is it wrong for me to publicly talk about it?
In light of what I’ll reveal at the end, I find it more important than ever to talk about the persistent and pervasive racial and sexual abuse/harassment I was the victim of at ConQuesT because I did everything I was told to do in the event that I was harassed. I reported most of the events you’ll see described below, and I did not do so anonymously. I stuck my name on every incident report, partly because I was not afraid, but mostly because I wanted things to change. If putting my name on a report ensured that a better community could be built from my actions, then I felt it was worth it.
Alas, that does not seem to be the case.
*
I was invited to be the Fan Guest of Honor at ConQuesT 46. (From here on out, GoH will stand for Guest of Honor.) I was thrilled to take part in it, not just because I’d attended ConQuesT 45, but because George R.R. Martin and Brandon Sanderson would be guests alongside me. Hey, for my first GoH gig, that’s a pretty spectacular line-up! I arrived to Kansas City on the Wednesday before the convention, and my friend at the time (now partner) Baize was my guest. We headed to the con hotel and, upon check-in, discovered that we were placed in the secondary tower of the hotel, not the main one; the room was also not paid for, so I had to put my own card down. This was fixed by the time dinner was over, but it was a disconcerting start to a bad weekend. On Thursday evening, I was driven to Jack Stack BBQ for the guest of honor dinner, which Baize and I were quite excited about. We are both fans of the Song of Ice and Fire books and the show, so it felt like a very special occasion. We were ten minutes or so late due to going to the wrong location first. When we arrived, all of the guests of honor were present with their own guests, and they were all seated at the table. There were two open spots next to George R.R. Martin, so I gestured to them as I arrived, and Baize and I moved to sit in them.
The con chair, Kristina Hiner, stopped us. She told us the seats were for her and her husband. She then gestured behind us to an empty table two tables away from the main one, and told us we could sit there. By ourselves. I am certain she saw the glare of anger on my face and the confusion on my guest’s. We were so shocked that we couldn’t even say anything. She then quickly suggested that we sit at the table with the staff members, and we took the only two spots left at said table. They were literally the farthest point away from the Guest of Honor table. If it were not for our friend Jesi and two other staff members who briefly greeted us, not one person at that table would have ever said a word to us. We were ignored and segregated from the main table the entire time. (As a brief aside, I wanted to provide some emotional context to this. Baize and I were the only people of color in this entire group, and both of us are gay. I’ve struggled my whole life with reading situations to see if I’m actually being discriminated against, and the fear that that had happened to us was particularly strong that whole dinner. We are both part of marginalized communities that had very little representation in this group, and it became impossible not to consider the possibility that we were treated differently because of it.)
At the end of the meal, I was asked to pay for mine and my guest’s meal, unlike the entire guest of honor table. This was rectified after I told the server to please tell Kristina to include us on the main bill, which had nearly been paid for without us on it. After the meal, Kristina finally spoke to me after our initial confrontation, and I told her that we were in the wrong hotel, that my room had not been paid for, and that I felt weird about the evening. She assured me that everything would be taken care of and that my guest and I would be treated well.
I’m including this at the start of this because I want everyone to have context. While I didn’t make a report about this or opening ceremonies, I thought it relevant to include it here. It is necessary to help explain the atmosphere of this convention. When it wasn’t outright hostile to Baize and I, we were utterly invisible. Mistakes happen at cons, and by no means do I think that ConQuesT or ANY convention should never have anything go wrong ever. However, this was the start of an unnerving pattern.
By the time I got to programming on Friday afternoon, I felt deeply uncomfortable about my experience at ConQuesT thus far. I had two panels that I was on prior to Opening Ceremonies. I was moderating a panel titled, “Are Fans More Open Minded?” The panel progressed wonderfully for about ten minutes before it was derailed and then never made it back to normal. Early into the panel, someone in the audience made a joke about the panelist Selina Rosen, who sat next to me on my left and was ALSO a Guest of Honor at the convention. They called her a princess, and in response, she stood up and pulled her pants down to her ankles. For the next few minutes, Selina, wearing nothing but men’s boxers, proceeded to periodically rub her bare leg against mine. At first, I thought she was merely bumping me, but she kept doing it, over and over, and if I looked at her while she was doing it, she would make a face at me.
I texted Keri O’Brien, the Vice Chair for the convention, and told her that Selina had taken off her pants again. (She had done so at ConQuesT 45.) Within a few minutes, Selina had pulled her pants back up and Keri arrived and pulled Selina out of the room. Selina returned, and she made the bulk of the remainder of the panel about how fandom was NOT open-minded because someone had reported her for removing her pants. Multiple things happened in response to this. In a strange sign of solidarity, another panelist, Robin Wayne Bailey, removed his OWN shirt and kept talking about his nice body and his big muscles. Selina tried to grill multiple members of the audience to determine if they had been the ones to report her, even going so far as to yell at anyone who chose to leave the room, accusing them of being a “rat.” Near the end of the panel, an audience member asked the panel if fandom could be considered open-minded when it clung to so many of its own racist/sexist/homophobic heroes uncritically. Specifically, I addressed this in the context of the World Fantasy Award and brought up the fact that many people do not think we should criticize H.P. Lovecraft. Robin Bailey then responded by saying that anyone who spoke about Lovecraft’s racism should be considered “human garbage,” and said that Lovecraft was just a product of his time.
Following this panel, I went to opening ceremonies, where I once again felt invisible when Selina Rosen skipped introducing me. It was not until people in the audience yelled this out that they came back to me.
On Friday night, at a room party in the main hotel, my partner Baize was sexually and racially harassed by someone attending the same dance party: Liz Gooch. At multiple points during the evening, she gestured behind him as if she were going to grab his butt. She kept referring to it as his “juicy booty.” She danced around him and told me to “not let this sweet piece of chocolate go.” Despite that our body language clearly showed discomfort, Liz would not stop harassing either of us. We had to move to another side of the room, and we eventually told the person running the party what she was doing. We both considered that perhaps she had been so forward and gross because she was drunk, but I had multiple interactions with Liz Gooch when she was sober following that night. The next morning, she was leaving an elevator as I was getting in a different one. She turned around and made a number of sexual gestures while pointing at Baize, which including kissing faces, winks, and licking her lips in an exaggerated manner.
On Sunday afternoon, I was the moderator on a panel titled, “Erasure is Not Equality.” This panel was specifically about the erasure of people of color in historical fiction, fantasy, and other genres. I was the only person on the panel who was not white. Furthermore, not one person on the panel seemed to understand the point of the panel, which was to talk about erasure. Instead, the conversation teetered between self-righteous back-patting and flat-out racism. Within the first five minutes of the start of the panel, I brought up a topic for us to discuss: how “historical accuracy” is often poorly used as a defense of the erasure of people of color. One panelist, Chris Gerrib, then began to talk about how people misunderstood history. The “Indian” people in Central America were already busy “killing each other” by the time the Spaniards arrived. When I asked for clarification, Gerrib confirmed that he believed that the Spaniards were “unfairly blamed” for the genocide of the indigenous cultures in Central America. I was so horrified by his continued talk of this ahistorical point that, after very little conversation, I asked that we change topic.
This set a tone for the remainder of the panel, which was easily the worst panel I have ever been a part of. All three of the white panelists confidently stated things that were simply not true; each of them kept saying “Indian” when they actually meant Native American or indigenous; every few minutes, more than half the audience was viscerally horrified by what the other panelists said. At one point, Jan Gephardt derailed the panel into talking about women instead of race and said that she was “happy to see any sort of women, like black or white or green.” Gerrib then chimed in with, “Or purple.” She also responded to a lengthy point that myself and an audience member made about the physical and emotional injury that can come from experiencing racism by reminding us that “racism is not real” because race “is just a social construct.” During a different conversation about how many authors mistakenly blur the line between different cultural groups, Chris Gerrib jokingly said, “Did you know that the Japanese aren’t the same as the Chinese?” Jan’s response? The Japanese and Chinese just think they’re different in their heads. She heavily implied that they were mistaken in this belief.
Holly Messinger, a ConQuesT staff member, was also on the panel. She spent a great deal of time talking only about her own work, repeating the message that she had read “five books on Indians” and that she had written her first black character, who kept the white character “sane.” She stated at one point that she was “terrified” about the response her book would get because people would get “mad” about her writing an “Indian” character. When I asked for clarification – specifically, was she worried about getting representation wrong? – she told the room that she had no concern about that. She’d read five books about “Indians.” She was concerned that people of color would misinterpret her.
There were many more incidents on this panel, and I could not recount them all here. The panel ended on a sour note, too. Baize spoke up and pointed out that part of the problem with erasure was that there was only one person of color on a panel about race. Holly Messinger shot back, “Well, we’re in the Midwest.” I left the panel feeling drained and numb. If you were at ConQuesT that weekend and you wondered why Closing Ceremonies started late, it’s my fault. I dashed up to my hotel room to cry because I felt so triggered, rejected, and alone. I’ve been on uncomfortable panels, but this was unique. The entire panel was argumentative; my questions as moderator were constantly avoided or ignored; anything I tried to state was fought or dismissed or contradicted. It was exhausting.
Sunday night, at the viewing party for the fireworks display, someone accidentally sat on a remote and turned off the live news broadcast. A man behind Baize and I yelled out, “Cocksucker!” at whomever made the TV go off. We were both holding hands at the time, and while we didn’t think the expletive was directed at us, we still turned around and glared at the man. After the fireworks, I left the room quickly because… well, I’d heard so much nonsense all weekend that I needed to get out of that space before I lost my temper. The man sent his friend after us – some young woman whose name I did not get – who then harassed us for nearly a minute by repeatedly telling us that her friend was sorry and that we “needed” to know that he was a nice person and not a bigot. When I told her that I didn’t care, she actually said, “But I need you to know he’s a really nice guy.” It took me telling her, “Please leave me alone right now” for her to leave the hallway.
That night, I reported all of these incidents in one long session with Keri O’Brien and Jesi Pershing. They were both incredibly professional and sympathetic to myself and Baize, and I have nothing negative to say about that specific experience. They did exactly as they should: they made the two of us feel better, and they were very thorough in getting details about all of the above experiences. I was asked what I wanted done. I did not recommend that anyone get kicked out or un-invited for future years. I simply wanted two things:
1) That those I reported not be allowed on programming that triggered such a terrible response in them. (That was mostly in regards to the “Erasure is Not Equality” panel. A panel about race should not have one lone person of color on it.)
2) That someone tell these people that there’d been a report made about their behavior and that they should not behave in a way to make people feel so upset and unwanted.
I was realistic about what I wanted. You can’t make everything a teaching moment, and some people might not want to learn. But I needed someone to tell each of these people that their actions made someone else feel terribly unwelcome at the convention. I just wanted the conversation to be started.
*
I moved on. It’s now been nearly nine months since this happened. Why did I wait so long? Why didn’t I say anything earlier? Initially, it’s because I believed the process would work. I completed about seven incident reports total, as far as I can recall. I put my name on them, and I signed them. I was told that the concom would discuss them, and that, at the very least, some action would be taken, either a notification about their behavior and a warning, OR people would not be invited back for programming in the future. Months went by. Jesi Pershing, in her official capacity as part of the concom, would give me periodic updates. Sometimes, if I saw her at another con, I would ask her what the status of my reports were. She had recommended specific courses of action in response to my incident reports, and Kristina seemed to agree to them. But last month, she finally told me that, nearly eight months after I’d reported multiple people, ConQuesT and Kristina Hiner had done absolutely nothing with my reports.
I’ll reiterate that. No one was contacted. No one was spoken to. As far as I know, none of these people even know that they harassed me or my partner. Neither Kristina Hiner nor any of the Board ever took the steps to make any sort of follow-up happen. When Jesi realized that there was not going to be any movement whatsoever on this, she decided to step down from ConQuesT as a staff member. She could not, in good conscious, continue to work for an organizing that refuses to take action.
Harassment is unfortunately a part of my experience at SF/F conventions. Not at all of them, but at most of them, something happens to me. I’m an outspoken queer Latinx, and it’s inevitable. However, since ConQuesT, every con staff that I’ve had to make a report to has dealt with my report quickly and fairly. At ConFusion this year, the concom dealt with my incident report in two hours. Meaning they spoke to the person and that person apologized to my face within two hours. At that point, it almost seemed comical that over half a year had passed, and both ConQuesT and Kristina Hiner did nothing at all.
That’s why I’m talking. I did what I was supposed to. I kept quiet, I trusted the system in place, and it completely failed me. I will not be attending ConQuesT this year or for the foreseeable future. (I’m going to WisCon for the first time instead!) I don’t feel safe there, and ultimately, that’s why this bothers me so much. There are people who are part of that community who were actively hostile to me, and when I reported them, the message was sent loud and clear:
We don’t care about you. At all.
You have my permission to share this post on your own pages or outside Facebook.
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I have sort of stayed out of this but there’s one thing I wanted to ask about: Oshiro describes himself as a person of color. From the pictures I’ve seen e.g. here I wouldn’t have pegged him as that. (Not more than for example certain Iberian or 1/16 Cherokee canines.) Is there something obvious I’m missing?
@Johan P
Latinx.
JohanP. : He identifies as Latinx, and his appearance is consistent with that ID as well. Specifics are hard to determine from photographs, too; colour is tricky, especially out of context (blue or white? Gold or black?)
But he was also present, as I understand it, with a black man, then friend and later partner, as his personal guest, and even if people took him for white (before the panel on race), they would also take him correctly for gay, and racism could rear up in seeing a mixed racial couple.
“I think “took off her pants” is getting a lot of screen time because it is quick to type, sounds funny, and obviously transgresses social norms, rather than because Rosen’s was the only behavior worthy of note.”
This. The other stuff is worse in the sense of being more insidious and also more overtly hostile, but it is–unfortunately–also stuff I’ve heard of before in one context or another. Whereas taking off your pants in public has the “…wtf?” factor: like, are you *six*?
(Also the Rosen v. Wayne Bailey issue: taking off your shirt in that particular scenario in that particular way is obnoxious, but most of us are indeed used to seeing shirtless guys in a number of public places, especially during the warmer months. Whether “guy takes off shirt” should be a bigger deal than “anyone takes off pants” is another issue, but…social norms are what they are, transgressing them communicates certain things, etc.)
If Oshiro’s account is true, the way she acted at the panel after she was informed that her pants-dropping offended someone was overtly hostile. She even yelled at people leaving the panel and suggested they might be the “rat.”
The Phantom wrote: “Behold, the tolerance of fandom. I’d chew off an arm to avoid being stuck in a room with this kind of tolerance.”
The exit door here is only a click away, y’know? No arm-chewing needed.
Also of note: guy took off shirt in direct response to woman removing trousers (and haranguing the audience). Any bets on whether Bailey would have done it absent Rosen’s antics?
The person who starts something tends to get more flack than the person who follows their lead.
(Another one who didn’t bother to look at photos of anyone in advance, and only knew that Bailey self-describes as muscly from Oshiro’s report — which I thought sounded horribly obnoxious and narcissistic, not ‘conventionally attractive’. Oshiro said not one word about Rosen’s appearance, and I was mentally picturing a moderately built person.)
@rcade: Oh, true. I was mentally lumping that in with “other stuff” and failed to make that clear.
@Lenora Rose: Also a good point!
I don’t particularly wish to talk *to* Phantom, because trolls, but I will note that the “you are so oppressive by expecting people to follow nominal standards of behavior” attitude is one of the main reasons I’m wary of going to cons.
Pingback: Problematic conventioners, take two | Font Folly
Bailey has been a competitive body-builder iirc
Well, Curt, and Laura, and rcade, why do you suppose that is? Could it be that I’ve seen the type of endless, limitless revilement visited upon those who are just a little different, who perhaps hold views that vary from the Party Line?
I figured it was for the drama of it all.
Phantom: Now you’re just being a concern troll. Frankly, you don’t sound like a person with a disability to me; you sound like a predator who has figured out how to USE people with disabilities as human shields to game the system. Which is despicable, but unfortunately common.
Curt Phillips and a few others: Enough already with the online-nick bullshit. “Curt Phillips” could just as easily be a pseudonym, and how would we ever know? If you’re banned from a discussion under your soi-disant “real name”, you could just as easily come back as somebody else, with a name that sounds “real”, and start making the same worn-out, invalid arguments. Phantom is in fact posting under a consistent identity-label that ties his comments together, no matter how obnoxious they are.
Barry Deutsch: You’re right that Rosen’s disrobing has gotten much more attention than RWB’s, and you may be right that institutionalized fat-shaming is playing a part in it, but I think there’s another factor involved as well. Rosen dropped her pants. RWB took off his shirt. For a whole slew of cultural reasons, a man’s bare torso is more socially acceptable in public than either male or female underpants. If RWB had dropped his pants as well, I think you’d be seeing a lot more opprobrium being aimed in his direction. Not that this makes it right, but it’s something to consider.
NowhereMan: Yeah, I found that one by following solarbird’s pingback. There were multiple levels of fail involved there, but certainly “no consequences for bad behavior” was a major factor.
.
@ Bruce Baugh: “It sounds like it was something genuinely new in many of our experiences, and we are a crew who’s collectively seen a lot of weird stuff. If she hadn’t been on the panel, then Bailey’s disgusting behavior would have gotten more of the spotlight.”
What you said. I’ve been speaking on convention panels for over 25 years, have been around writers most of my life… and I’ve never heard of anyone doing this. It was indeed new.
Obviously, that doesn’t mean it’s never happened (after all, Rosen did it at ConQuest 45, so it’s obviously happened before ConQuest 46), but it’s certainly something I’ve never heard of a writer doing during a discussion panel before.
I would think, at the very LEAST, a speaker intending to do that should communicate with the moderators and other speakers before the panel to say, “I want to take off my clothes during the panel. [Insert reason here; Attention-seeking schtick, exhibitionism, inability to hold an audience’s attention by merely talking, FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM, whatever.] Is that okay with you?” I think it’s too weird and disruptive and unprofessional a thing to do without, at the very least, getting consensus from the people sharing the program hour with you.
(And I would be a party pooper who’d say, “No, don’t do that during our panel. Save that shit for your reading or a private party or some other event that’s on YOUR time rather than on OUR time.”)
Josh: The last time I attended ConQuesT, which as I recall was 6 or 7 years ago, RWB and SR displayed the same behaviour. It weirded me out, as I am not from the area and do not know them. Watching them was uncomfortable.
So apparently they are mainstays of the con, and this is a traditional type of behavior at this regional convention?
Perhaps the conrunners need to realize that they’re not just their own little in-group any more (if ever they were), and that they and their attendees need to comport themselves in a manner which is more appropriate for a convention than for a private party.
On the other hand, if stuff like this keeps happening at their con, eventually word will get around, and it will end up being a private party because no one else will want to attend. 😐
@ Tasha, re Marrks account:
and
Yes, I was aghast when I read this. WHO BEHAVES THIS WAY? Another total “WTF???” moment–of many, in reading Mark’s post.
And he did try to put a stop to it. He says that at the party where Gooch commenced this behavior:
He didn’t just grin-and-bear it. He didn’t refrain from indicating he didn’t want to be treated this way. And yet it remained a problem–behavior that Gooch continued the next time she saw the couple.
And… I’m right back, WHO TREATS SOMEONE THAT WAY, to begin with? Aiyeeeee!
Tasha: Does anyone know what the weapons policies of the hotels and the convention center are? That might also have a bearing on the situation.
Barry Deutsch: Now I need to apologize for having responded to your original comment before I got to the page with your clarification. Didn’t mean to keep flogging a dead horse, sorry.
Phantom: Behold, the tolerance of fandom. I’d chew off an arm to avoid being stuck in a room with this kind of tolerance.
So… why are you here? And don’t pull any “speaking truth to power” bullshit, because truth is one thing I haven’t heard from you yet. Oh, and if racism and other forms of bigotry are “things which seem self-evident” that you casually mention in passing, then indeed you are the kind of person we don’t want in our physical spaces.
Tasha: Yes, the treatment to which Baize was subjected was horrible, and had the genders been reversed I suspect it would have gotten a lot more attention. By the time I got to that point in Mark’s post my jaw was already on the floor and didn’t have room to drop any further, but you are absolutely right that it needs more focus than it’s been getting here. What the flaming HELL!!
RE the discussion about what Rosen and RWB look like and whether there is fat shaming involved in this, etc. I don’t know what they look like. I did look them up on Wikipedia, though (where there are entries but not photos), specifically because I was curious about their ages.
I wondered if “Selina Rosen” and “Robin Wayne Bailey” were 22-year-olds with no idea how to behave in a public appearance, or something like that. The young people I know are all too mature to behave this way–even the teenagers–but they’ve all told me stories about problem people on campus or in their high schools, and when I was in grad school 12 years ago I often saw people of about 20 who were so drunk they were disrobing in bars or falling down and sleeping in the middle of a public street, etc.
So I looked them up on Wikipedia to see how old they are, wondering if there was some sort of “young and dumb” explanation for what struck me as really bizarre behavior on that panel. Like I said, no photos on Wikipedia, but birthdates and brief bios.
I was surprised to see they’re both older than me, which really hadn’t occurred to me. My own preconceptions shining through.
I was also surprised to realize I’ve met Robin Wayne Bailey. At least once, maybe several times, at various conventions. (My memory is vague, but I recall him as a cordial professional.) And he’s a past president of SFWA. But, obviously, since I didn’t even immediately recognize the name, I wouldn’t say I “know” him. And it might be more than 20 years since I’ve seen him–so, no, I still don’t know what he looks like, since we all change at least a bit (sometimes drastically) over the years.
@Laura Resnick And… I’m right back, WHO TREATS SOMEONE THAT WAY, to begin with? Aiyeeeee!
Too many people in our society unfortunately. Given stuff that’s happened to me or stuff I’ve seen I’d say people in the USA.
It would be nice if they’d start being told their behavior is unacceptable by the people around them. If they continue doing it they should face consequences which include protecting others from being harassed by them in the future.
“Lee” writes:
“Curt Phillips and a few others: Enough already with the online-nick bullshit. “Curt Phillips” could just as easily be a pseudonym, and how would we ever know? If you’re banned from a discussion under your soi-disant “real name”, you could just as easily come back as somebody else, with a name that sounds “real”, and start making the same worn-out, invalid arguments…”
Ah… I forgot that most of you are probably a good deal younger than I am. I’ve been around fandom for a while and have done a few things. I’m an old-style traditional fan who’s a lot more comfortable with writing for paper fanzines and talking with other fans at conventions than I am in trying to figure out the social land-mines of on-line fandom. (I hope I’m not *too* old for the rest of you to want to bother with. I *am* trying to learn how fannish communication is done here, and believe me, it’s not quite the same as it was 40 years ago…) Mike Glyer – who owns FILE 770 – knows me as do some of the other fans whose hair is a little grayer than it used to be. But sure, on the Internet there isn’t really much that’s certain, is there? Except that many of us aren’t as well behaved on-line as we perhaps should be. I don’t think my comments are invalid. They certainly aren’t invalid just because you disagree with them – I think you know that – and in any event they were not “arguments”. They were me trying to clarify my thoughts on the matter to an audience that represents itself to be fannish. Ok, maybe you don’t care about my thoughts on the matter, particularly. Well, if that’s how it is, then that’s how it is. If I knewhowto make myself more interesting I’d already be doing it… 😉
” Phantom is in fact posting under a consistent identity-label that ties his comments together, no matter how obnoxious they are.”
You just invalidated your own argument. How do you know that “Phantom” is posting under a consistent identity-label? How do you know there haven’t been a dozen people using the name “Phantom”? You can’t – unless you happened to be “The Phantom” yourself, that is…
“online-nick” is a phrase I’m not familiar with. Is that a typo for “online-name”, or some regionalism that I’ve just not encountered before?
@Lee Tasha: Does anyone know what the weapons policies of the hotels and the convention center are? That might also have a bearing on the situation
I just did another look all over the convention center website and couldn’t find a weapons policy anywhere. I’m not going through each of the hotels. The puppy leaders were talking about guns at Sasquan. They reiterated it for this year, if my memory is correct, as soon as NA swept the Hugos. Bids are made years in advance. This stuff should be thought about and planned for.
I’m pretty sure the local liason (maybe not) or hotel liason should have access to the information. Maybe someone here knows if hotels/convention centers include clauses related to weapons in their agreements with conventions?
No one has to design a weapons policy from scratch. A number of cons have good policies. If you ask around (hey SMOFS are a network) you can get pointed in the right direction. Plus Google works.
Yes you still need to make sure your policy is acceptable in the city & state your in; as well as the hotel(s)/convention center. Another reason to work on it earlier rather than leave it last minute. Plus it doesn’t piss off all your conceal carrying gun owners who’ve spent a year intending to be armed at your convention. Yes the state does allow private places and events to limit/not allow guns. Law was checked and confirmed back around the NA swept Hugos by someone(s) here on file770.
@Phantom
And I’d run like hell away from people who thought this was tolerance. What makes your feels any more or less important than mine?
While you’re thinking that through, also consider why having a defined set of standards, a “code of conduct” if you will, may be useful when a difference like this arises.
@Curt Phillips
40 years ago I was 9 so yeah a little bit younger than you. But I think you might be overplaying the I’m an old geezer card. Just because you personally can be vouched for doesn’t mean everyone you talk to on the Internet who uses what looks to be a real name is using a real name. Our brains default to real person vs Pseudonym but that doesn’t mean our brains are right. So making a big deal out of those posting with first and last names versus those not is… Disingenuous I guess? I know who some Pseudonyms are in real life and they have very good reasons for not using their real name (stalking ex, rape, death threats). I also know people using first & last name aren’t using their real name because I know their real name.
You are welcome to continue ranting every time the topic comes up. But keep in mind “Jane Smith” might be “Jim Jones”. So while you are putting “Annie” down for not being “brave and honest” and praising “Jane Smith”. Jane is a lie and Annie might be in real fear of her life. Do you really want to be that person?
If they are a dozen people they use the same gravatar login* and use the same language and writing style and constantly harp on the same themes. It’s possible but unlikely given the Gravatar login. Understanding technology is useful in our time.
*Internet identification
Tasha Turner:
He will. He’s been doing it for years now. Assuming, that is, that the “Curt Phillips” here is the same “Curt Phillips” from the SouthernFandomClassic yahoo group.
Exciting announcement thanks to Chris Meadows posting the link on Pixel Scroll 2/22/16
For the Record: A Statement from the KaCSFFS Board of Directors
The Kansas City Science Fiction and Fantasy Society, Inc. (KaCSFFS) is the sponsor of ConQuesT, the oldest convention in the central states region. The KaCSFFS Board of Directors oversees ConQuesT, but the day-to-day operations of the convention are done by the volunteer chairs and convention committee, who change from year to year.
In light of recent issues we feel that more oversight of the convention committee as a whole is necessary by the KaCSFFS Board of Directors. This is being addressed by the current Board of Directors as we speak.
KaCSFFS is profoundly sorry that these issues arose, and the policies in place were not followed through to completion. We are taking steps to ensure that future complaints are addressed appropriately and in compliance with current policies and procedures in place.
Posted by Jan Gephardt
BTW the board consists of:
KaCSFFS Board of Directors
Margene Bahm, President
Earline “Cricket” Beebe, Treasurer
Kristina Hiner, Secretary
Jan Gephardt, Communications Officer
Keri O’Brien, ConQuesT Chairperson for 2016
Diana Bailey, Registered Agent
Tasha Turner: For the Record: A Statement from the KaCSFFS Board of Directors
Well, that’s just woefully inadequate.
Especially when I see the list of the Board Members’ names.
Ah, right then. One of those people who makes me think, “I’m WAY too young for this crowd” even when I’m one of the oldest people there. (A phenomenon which has been occurring with increasing regularity over the last decade or so.)
ETA: And here I thought that “nick” was itself an old-fashioned term dating from the days of APAs and Usenet.
Geeze,Tasha; I really wasn’t trying to play any card at all. I was trying to be polite and at least reasonably respectful in a conversation where I’ve started to feel like I’m getting smacked around a little bit myself. It’s *really* difficult to try to talk with folks here when everyone’s trying so hard to “one-up” each other,you know? And you folks circled the wagons on the name/pseudonym topic so quickly that I guess you’re either sick of seeing it discussed or resentful of anyone suggesting that maybe there’s a better way than what you’re doing now. Ok; I get the message.
“So while you are putting “Annie” down for not being “brave and honest” and praising “Jane Smith”. Jane is a lie and Annie might be in real fear of her life. Do you really want to be that person?”
*blink*, *blink*… *Me*? I put someone down over the name thing? I was only raising the question, and I don’t think I was out of line with anyone! I certainly tried hard not to be. If simply raising the point is rude, than clearly I’m talking with people who are far more sensitive than I was aware of and I’d better stop.
“Ranting” seems rude to me. Is that because I’m an old geezer and too out-of-touch with the way you young whipper-snappers talk these days, or is it just another way to discourage me from having an opinion that differs from the other wolves in this pack? Of course, stripping at a convention panel and howling comments like “human garbage” on a panel seems rude to me too… (See how I brought us back on-topic, there?
Honestly, some of you folks enjoy slamming each other around a little too much for my taste. I’m used to a fandom that treats each other like brothers and sisters rather than like used inflatable sex-toys. Suddenly I feel as though I’m sitting at the head table in a convention panel, looking around and thinking to myself “I have no idea why I’m sitting up here…”
For what it’s worth, I’d never heard or seen the phrase “gravatar login” anywhere in my life until you used it above and explained that it meant. Thank you. My degree in Electronics Engineering clearly didn’t fully prepare me for all of the challenges of today’s modern world. Maybe I should go back to school and pick up another degree or two before I venture into a fannish discussion again…
Folks, try to be a little nicer to each other, won’t you? It won’t kill you, really it won’t…
I’m not sure where to start with what’s wrong with the statement from the board. What they got right was not calling it an apology.
On the board is Kristina Hiner, Chair of the concom where Mark Oshiro and Baize were harassed.
On the board is Jan Gephardt At one point, Jan Gephardt derailed the panel into talking about women instead of race and said that she was “happy to see any sort of women, like black or white or green.”
On the board is Keri O’Brien
I texted Keri O’Brien, the Vice Chair for the convention, and told her that Selina had taken off her pants again.
And
That night, I reported all of these incidents in one long session with Keri O’Brien and Jesi Pershing.
So we knows at least half the board was involved in the convention where the incident happened. But you wouldn’t know that if you don’t have the additional information as they try to distance themselves in the statement.
The board does not actually apologize to Mark or Baize. Lack of responsibility by the board.
No details, links, nothing about what those policies and procedures are.
I’m not impressed.
LauraH on February 23, 2016 at 4:37 pm said:
Tasha Turner:
You are welcome to continue ranting every time the topic comes up.
“He will. He’s been doing it for years now. Assuming, that is, that the “Curt Phillips” here is the same “Curt Phillips” from the SouthernFandomClassic yahoo group.”
He won’t. You’ve read my last “rant” here.
Best wishes to all,
Curt Phillips
@Curt Phillips
I’m sick of it being discussed. The example I used might seem extreme to you but it’s all too common in the real life I live in.
Your the one that started off with the I’m older than all of you here bullshit.
I’ve seen you start this discussion before. When someone wanders around the Internet repeating the same point over and over again I call that a rant. You don’t listen to anyone who explains why people don’t use their real names. You’ve been doing this for years.
Fandom 40 years ago let a pedophile run free in Worldcon. Fandom 40 years ago thought sexual harassment was ok and women kept their mouths shut. Fandom 40 years ago was even less accepting of POC and LGBTI than it is today it was just quieter about it all. Polite isn’t always better.
Sorry if you don’t feel I’ve been polite enough. I find your telling people what names are ok to use and which aren’t (sorry your bringing up the point/question) derailing a conversation about sexual harassment and racism to be offensive.
ETA: I’m done
“Lee” wrote:
“Ah, right then. One of those people who makes me think, “I’m WAY too young for this crowd” even when I’m one of the oldest people there. (A phenomenon which has been occurring with increasing regularity over the last decade or so.)”
Sorry about that Lee. Believe me; I’d *like* to be younger…
“ETA: And here I thought that “nick” was itself an old-fashioned term dating from the days of APAs and Usenet.”
Well, I pre-date Usenet by a good many years. Never saw that term used in any of the apas I’ve been a part of (former member and past OE of MYRIAD, PEAPS – the Pulp Era Amateur Press Society, and FAPA – Fantasy Amateur Press Association, and past member of SFPA – Southern Fandom Press Alliance, and FLAP. Maybe some others that I’ve forgotten along the way. (shrug…) Some things in fandom overlap, and some don’t. Always something new to learn.
Disclaimer: the above was not a rant… 😉
And Diana Bailey is RWB’s wife.
Tasha, may I offer you a hug? You said what I wanted to, and better.
Oh, the karma of Curt not feeling welcome in an online fannish space.
Lois Tilton wrote: “Bailey has been a competitive body-builder iirc”
He’s also, iirc, mentioned performing in the past as part of a Chippendale’s-style men’s group. So I would expect a stronger reaction than most people if he thought someone was being body-shamed. Especially a friend. (This 2012 interview with RWB mentions he’s known Rosen a long time, and that several collections of his short fiction have been published by Rosen’s Yard Dog Press.)
I’m a bit surprised that so many people have said “I’ve never heard of RWB.” While not a major author, he’s been around for years, been active in SFWA, and several of his books have lasting reputations. (FROST, from 1983, is a book I still see people reccing every now and then, and I can give my own recommendation for 1991’s SHADOWDANCE.) (Googling, I find they’re both available in ebook and audiobook now.)
Full disclosure: The very first fan letter from another writer about one of my own short stories came from Robin Wayne Bailey.
Bruce Arthurs: I’m a bit surprised that so many people have said “I’ve never heard of RWB”
I’ve read his Wikipedia entry now, and I can see why people who are SFF writers or aspiring writers might know who he is — he’s been quite active with SFWA, including a stint as president. But his only award nom was for a Nebula for a Novelette back in 2007 which (while not a children’s story) featured 3 children as the main characters. He had a novel trilogy published by Simon & Schuster more than 10 years ago, but in the last 10 years, he’s only published two collections of short stories through a small press.
So I don’t think it’s terribly surprising that people who aren’t part of the SFF writing community don’t know who he is.
And now that I know some things about him, I don’t really care to learn any more.
@LauraH
Thanks for your comments and information and the hug. Glad I could entertain. Some days I have little patience.
The true fault here lies with the committee which could not confront their own local con-goers with the fact of the complaint.
That process failed.
Mark’s complaint was the result of the totality of his and his partner’s experience at the convention.
I am not comfortable with the focus on singling out of a number of people in the complaint who never had to opportunity to apologize or consider their behavior before being judged in a public forum with only one side of a story. It seems unfair.
To me it misses the larger and more important point that a convention with a policy failed to implement it in any actionable way.
I hope the people named in Mark’s complaint have the opportunity and the grace to proffer their apologies where merited.
@Shambles
When it comes to sexual harassment and racism I have no problem judging based on the person reporting. Something this country needs to do is start believing people when they say they’ve been harassed.
I’d think they are aware now. At least one has done a non-apology/argue and have his comments deleted from the FB conversation as the thread was getting ugly.
I believe all the people named can apologize. There are multiple ways to contact Mark Oshiro. A blog post apology.
I remember reading and liking Shadowdance (it was also Gay/bi friendly IIRC, though I leave a caveat that my reading was a long time ago.)
Curt Philips, internet anonymity and pseudonymity have indeed been longstanding topics of great tension and aggravation, and you did indeed hiit a nerve. Although, someone else said, you’ve been there and done that for these discussions before and not learned, which may make this pointless, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and explaining a little further why.
There’s a reason doxxing is considered such a terrible behaviour; people have very good reasons sometimes to use pseudonyms and divorce internet identity from real world identity, ranging from job security to life endangerment. (None of those reasons as yet apply to me, but I still don’t use my legal surname except on Facebook. (But since Lenora Rose, as well as being myy legal first and middle names, is my nom de plume and nom d’art and how I am known at Conventions, there’s no confusion of identity.)
The “how do I know you’re really the same person?” and related queries are long since a solved problem, too, because community cannot grow in anaonymity. Pure anonymity is discouraged virtually everywhere; what you see here is mostly pseudonymity, where people consistently use the same moniker (‘online-nick’ or nickname) regardless of whether it’s their legal name. The difference is crucial. Most people use the same name in most places, or at worst ones easy to connect (“RedWombat” is UrsulaV on livejournal and Ursula Vernon on her books and podcasts {I have never and would never concern myself with whether it’s what’s on her driver’s license} but if you click the link the connection isn’t secret. I use Lenora Rose virtually everywhere; occasionally when commenting outside my usual haunts and on contentious topics like anti-vaxxers or abortion, I have used a different, but consistent name — Invented in high school but applied to the ‘net in the immediate wake of 9/11 to try and speak up against the anti-Muslim tide)
Pseudonyms can be confirmed numerous ways, besides usage elsenet; the Gravatars mentioned above, which are where people get the pictures by their names. Behind that is a whole ID set-up process.
There are also special Moderator powers: Mike can look at the sources of comments and compare IPs and other such things to confirm whether a given commentor is indeed consistently the same user, or whether multiple new commentors are the same person under different names (sock-puppetry). In the interests of viable and consistent conversation, moderators tend to discourage, and fix, Identity Confusions.
Last, but maybe should be first as it’s actually usually the first one people notice, people have opinions, attitudes and writing tics that reveal them. I guarantee that if you stripped the names off and shuffled all the last month’s comments by RedWombat and Tasha Turner (Never mind someone with as strongly differing opinions from either woman as The Phantom) anyone trying to sort them by user would have a pretty high success rate. At one point in the Sad Puppies kerfuffle on Making Light (I don’t remember anymore whether SP2 or 3), someone started popping in and leaving random Puppy-supportive comments under the names of regulars and semi-regulars. Long before the moderators stepped in and changed the names back, everyone else knew the encroacher wasn’t the people it claimed to be.
So.In short; solved problem. Long debated and discussed. Not quite a dead horse but it’s not too hard to see why some people can get short and bristly about it.
Ah. And it may well be that ConQuest didn’t have a strategy for handling a complaint that named the spouse of one of its BoD members. It’s the sort of thing that we were discussing earlier, about committees envisioning code-of-conduct policies being enforced against strangers who invade the con, but probably/perhaps not preparing themselves for fielding formal complaints about longtime attendees, volunteers, club members, personal friends, well-known editors and writers, etc.
@ Bruce Arthurs:
I don’t think it’s at all surprising. The sf/f field is very crowded, and names don’t stay indefinitely in one’s head–or even enter one’s head–unless there’s a good reason for it. There are lots of names any given sf/f fan or writer wouldn’t recognize. (Come to think of it, when my father was Guest of Honor at WorldCon in 2012, I daily met many people at that very con who’d never heard of him. So I’ll bet there were also plenty of people at Sasquan who’d never heard of David Gerrold and had no idea he was GoH at the con they were attending.)
@Tasha
I wish the convention board had that attitude towards taking complaints seriously and I am curious how their own mechanism for reporting harassment ended up being useless in practice.
Tasha Turner, I’m sorry. I honestly haven’t meant to make you angry with my comments, though clearly I have, and I offer my apologies for that. You’re right; I have indeed raised the name/pseudonym topic in years past on other on-line fannish forums. I don’t remember having done so here on FILE 770 before (or have I?), and I’ve been thinking of this forum as separate from others where I’ve written before. Most of the names (and pseudonyms…) I see here are unfamiliar to me – including yours (have we talked before these past couple of days?) – so like a poor speaker who retells all his old jokes every time he gets up to speak I’m probably guilty of rehashing my old topics. I’m sorry for aggravating you with that. I’ll try not to raise that topic again, here or elsewhere.
What pedophile did fandom let “run free at Worldcon”40 years ago? I’m not aware of this. If you’re talking about the Breen Affair, that was more than 10 years further back in the early/mid 60’s. Was there another incident in 1976? Mike Glyer, do you know about this?
“Fandom 40 years ago thought sexual harassment was ok…”
No, fandom certainly didn’t and you are wrong to say that it did. Did sexual harassment happen back then? I’m sure it did, but fandom did *not* condone it as you suggest. Sexual Harassment was just as wrong then as it is now and we knew it.
“… and women kept their mouths shut.”
I ‘d suggest that you ask some female fans who were around in 1976 about that, because your statement doesn’t match my memories of that time. You’re probably right that fandom was much less accepting of the LGBT community back then. That area of social progress was still in fandom’s future in 1976 (as I remember it) just as it was in society at large, but we had started the conversation about why there were so few “People of Color” in fandom by 1976, and we were talking honestly about how we could fix that issue. All progress has to start somewhere and sometime and by 1976 we had at least started to address that one. And that conversation *then* is one of the ancestors of the one we’re having today.
I don’t think I told anybody “what names are ok to use and which aren’t”; I think I only questioned the practice in general. Since I’ve promised not to raise the topic again though, I have to leave it at that.
Yes, but it’s been awhile. Many subjects recur here without being exhausted.
I joined LASFS in 1970, and as I learned about fanhistory, the Breendoggle was one subject covered because Bruce Pelz was among those who had been an advocate of having Breen banned from the 1964 Worldcon. I’m not aware of a 1976 incident, or whether Breen attended the 1976 Worldcon. (I would not yet have recognized him on sight then anyway.) All I can say from personal experience is I saw him at a 1987 Westercon.
Shambles: Have you given any thought to the idea that perhaps the people who are named in Mark’s post had the chance not to do the things that got them called out, but chose to do them anyhow? And that if they hadn’t done those things, there would be no need for them to make an apology?
I mean, we’re not talking about little things that could easily be a matter of misinterpretation or miscommunication. We’re talking about stuff like:
– A convention GOH being forced to sit at a separate table at the official GOH dinner, and then almost being required to pay for his own meal.
– Said GOH being made into the “token PoC” on a panel about minorities in science fiction.
– Multiple instances of OVERT physical sexual harassment, targeting both said GOH and his official guest.
These are not trivial issues. These are things that anyone who’s been involved in con-running for any length of time ought to know better than to do, and in the last case, something that anyone who is capable of functioning in everyday society ought to know better than to do.
And yet they did.
At that point, my sympathy for “oh, they were never TOLD they did something wrong until they got name-and-shamed for it publicly” becomes severely limited. Getting cut slack on shit that a con-runner — or a civilized adult — should already understand not to do, just because the convention administration failed to live up to its own stated policies, isn’t a useful suggestion.
@Laura Resnick
At Nolacon II in 1988, Justin Leiber was on a panel and suddenly took off his clothes.
Remind me again why anyone would want to be involved in running a Convention? It seems the rewards are diminishing and the chance to be run out of town on a fiber optic cable is increasing.
Remind me again why anyone would want to be involved in running a Convention?
Running a convention is generally not a problem for people who treat doing so like adults, and expect others to behave accordingly. Does this seem like an onerous burden to you?
The Phantom:
Actually, that only says that you are an anonymous troll that has been behaving as an asshole for over 10 years, still trying to avoid accountability by using your own name.
Curt Phillips: I‘d suggest that you ask some female fans who were around in 1976 about that, because your statement doesn’t match my memories of that time.
Well, as you are a straight white male, that’s hardly surprising, is it? So I don’t suppose you ever heard about all the ass-and-tit grabbing for which Asimov was famous, or the public joke about procuring women for him to fondle the year he was guest speaker for the Masquerade, or the way that Randall Garrett said to every woman he met, “Wanna fuck?”
No, I don’t suppose you really had any awareness of any of that.
Well, here you go.
The Phantom:
Actually, that only says that you are an anonymous troll that has been behaving as an asshole for over 20 years, still trying to avoid accountability by using your own name.