629 thoughts on “Measuring The Rabid Puppies Slate’s Impact on the Final Hugo Ballot”

1. I’m still wondering in what sense Dinosaur is ‘politically correct’.

   I am of the opinion that If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love is a mirror. How you perceive it depends on what kind of person you are. If you are an empathetic person who feels for someone experience loss and grief, you will sympathize with the narrator. If you are a terrible bigoted person, you will feel that the story is attacking you and is “politically correct”. In effect, I think a person’s reaction to the story tells us far more about that person than it does about the story.

2. As Michael Corleone said, “Keep your friends close but your enemies closer”. Once the SFF community ostracized VD, they lost any influence on his behavior. He no longer has to make nice.

   The good news is that it takes a lot of energy to continue to play the mustache-twirling villain, and I don’t see anyone else stepping into the role once VD moves onto other things in a few years.

   Identity politics in SFF will, however, continue as a source of controversy. The Puppies will pass, but some other organized force (probably not in the form of Hugo-slating) will arise to take their place.

3. There’s certainly a degree of mirror visible in things like the way La Hoyt infers a whole diatribe against manual labourers.

4. In effect, I think a person’s reaction to the story tells us far more about that person than it does about the story.

   nails it …

   humans are evolving I think … culturally certainly; but also I think in other ways. Nature vs. Nurture has always been a thing and now I think we’re seeing that nurture CAN change nature given enough time and exposure. Not sure if the human race can survive this evolution however … as it will eventually cause one side to attack and attempt to wipe out the other. But hey I’m getting old and won’t be around to see it (I hope). But I do feel bad for my kids and grandkids.

5. @Peace is my Middle Name: EPH remains the last chance to salvage the Hugos for honest SF lovers.

   I’m already feeling deep sympathy for whoever runs the business meeting this year. It’s going to be packed, and there’ll probably be a whole bunch of Puppies there, trying to disrupt proceedings. It’ll take a huge amount of effort to keep it from being a madhouse.

6. we could of course … just let them win. Give in .. don’t campaign against the ‘bad’ stuff. Don’t react to their provocations. Let them have a few Hugo’s … they will eventually run out of steam, get bored, go away. Keep celebrating the authors we like, keep buying their books and stories …

7. Pingback: The Hugos Turn Rabid – Feminist Fiction

8. @Rose Embolism I’m already feeling deep sympathy for whoever runs the business meeting this year.

   I believe it’s Jared Dashoff this year. Kevin Standlee will be in the back assisting on the video. I hope this isn’t Jared’s first time running the meeting.

   On a semi-related note I haven’t checked lately to see if MACII has their weapons policy up yet…

   ETA: Nope they still don’t have a weapons policy. This would concern me if I were attending given some puppies have stated intention to bring guns and how they’ve reacted online to NA in past years.

9. cliff — and then we’ve lost something important to a lot of us. Letting the Hugos become the personal plaything of a fascist troll with deep pockets is an utterly repugnant idea.
   We *need* to pass EPH.

10. @clack

    The only identity politics that have been present in the Hugos are the ones the Puppies brought with them. The only time I’ve seen a lot of people in a flutter over whether the nominations are decided by who’s in the right group have been Larry, Brad, and the rest of the MGC crowds near-erotic persecution fantasies, and thus the perceived need to Make The Hugos Great Again for white conservatives.

11. @Vasha

    My personal policy (and I have absolutely no problem with whatever other people choose to do) will be to vote any work below No Award if I think it’s on the ballot only because of the Puppies.

    The only problem I have with that is that I think What Price Humanity? by David VanDyke, which appeared in “There Will Be War X, ” is actually the best novelette on the Finalists list. I have a hard time voting a genuinely Hugo-worthy work under No Award–no matter where it came from.

12. and then we’ve lost something important to a lot of us. Letting the Hugos become the personal plaything of a fascist troll with deep pockets is an utterly repugnant idea.

    I don’t disagree … but playing his game … plays his game. The Hugos will always be important to US. It was never important to VD other than as a way to stick it to people who recognize him for what he is. So long as he can gloat about sticking it to us, he wins.

13. I sympathize immensely with the narrator of If You Were A Dinosaur, My Love, vengeance and all. I just think it’s a very slight story at best, despite my feelings. Sentimental sentiment is sentimental.

14. @NickPheas:

    There’s certainly a degree of mirror visible in things like the way La Hoyt infers a whole diatribe against manual labourers.

    I can live with the Sad Puppies. I try not to think about the Old Yeller solution for the Rabids, because metaphor can only take you so far before it leads you into temptation and delivers you unto evil. But I’ll be damned if I know what to do with the SAH Puppy. Read her books, I guess, and look for something not to hate.

15. @Hampus Eckerman

    Is EPH enough? Clearly not if nominations also should be seen as an honour. Also not for the smaller categories. I would endorse something like Kevins, that the attending members of Worldcon2 can disqualify a candidate by a pre-vote.

    I think people are going to have to see how well EPH works in practice before they’ll be willing to consider something like Kevin’s proposal.

    @Andrew Hickey

    We might get one rabid pick per category next year, and frankly there’s *always* one or two things in each category that are utterly dreadful. If Vox can persuade a few hundred people every year to pay twenty-five quid to get a single piece of crap onto the ballot, so it can lose, he’s welcome to as far as I’m concerned…

    Except it’s not likely to work as well as you think. EPH should prevent sweeps except in the most extreme cases (where the lowest slate vote is more than 5x the highest organic vote), but that’s the most you can expect in many categories. We’ll see one or two non-slate picks per category–not the other way around.

    Or at least that’s what I estimate from playing with the data we’ve got. I’ll be very interested to see what the Finalist list would have looked like had EPH been in effect this year. (And not counting people who declined or withdrew.)

    Now it may well be that if they can’t sweep then they won’t play. But, as Hampus points out, they really like advertising that their favored works were “Hugo Finalists.” If that persists even after EPH, I expect there’ll be a lot more appetite for some mechanism for fans to disqualify works.

16. clif — He “wins”, in his head, no matter what he does, and frankly I don’t care what he thinks.
    What we need is to ensure that the list of Hugo awards does not include Vox Day and his friends, thus devaluing the award, benefiting him financially, and encouraging other people to do the same. And we need to close the loophole that has allowed him to wreck them two years on the run.
    He will then run around saying he’s won, and it was a brilliant Xanatos Gambit, and we all fell into his cunning trap — just like he will no matter what else we do. But since my only concern about what he does or says is when he affects my life in any way, and since the only way he has so far managed to affect my life is by ruining the Hugos for a couple of years, he’s welcome to do that.

17. It’s going to be packed, and there’ll probably be a whole bunch of Puppies there, trying to disrupt proceedings.

    That didn’t happen last year, so I don’t know why it would this time. It’s a lot easier to be a troll disruptor on the Internet than in person. An Attending Membership in Worldcon currently costs $210.

18. Greg — I think the higher nomination rates and greater pre-nomination discussions (and possibly 4/6 as well) will make next year’s patterns different enough that EPH will do the rest.

19. Airboy:

    “It is also encouraging that at least some people are able to differentiate between the Sads and the Rabids this year.”

    If there was a difference, you wouldn’t be here applauding the rabid takeover.

20. I try not to think about the Old Yeller solution for the Rabids, because metaphor can only take you so far before it leads you into temptation and delivers you unto evil.

    that metaphor is an apt one … but I think the way it will likely play out is one side defending themselves from the ‘Old Yeller solution’ … to put it into blunt words, I suspect that the United States is headed for a second Civil War. Crazy conservatives led by a defeated Donald Trump will attempt to overthrow the gov’t. They DO have the guns after all .. and a whole lot of anger and resentment to drive them. To avert this scenario would require proactive behavior (ala the solution you suggest above) and liberals are just too much “live and let live” … until pushed, but then it’s too late.

21. clif:

    “I don’t disagree … but playing his game … plays his game. The Hugos will always be important to US. It was never important to VD other than as a way to stick it to people who recognize him for what he is. So long as he can gloat about sticking it to us, he wins.”

    Since when do we care about if Beale thinks he wins? He is not important to us.

22. How the hell did you get from the Hugo awards to a second civil war?

23. clif: Membership Benefits

    Well right off the bat, I can see a couple of nominees I will be delighted to vote for and others I will cheerfully vote down. Still, once the voter packages come out, hopefully we’ll get some item by item reviews again to help avoid prolonged exposure to obvious drek, and Hey! No John Wright this year! That’s a bonus, eh?

24. … to put it into blunt words, I suspect that the United States is headed for a second Civil War. Crazy conservatives led by a defeated Donald Trump will attempt to overthrow the gov’t. They DO have the guns after all .. and a whole lot of anger and resentment to drive them.

    Americans will never revolt as long as there’s something to watch on television.

25. How the hell did you get from the Hugo awards to a second civil war?

    if we look at the Hugo’s and the controversy surrounding it as a smaller version of what’s going on in the US …

26. Americans will never revolt as long as there’s something to watch on television.

    I do hope you are right.

27. But I’ll be damned if I know what to do with the SAH Puppy. Read her books, I guess, and look for something not to hate.

    I have a quicker solution. Don’t read her books.

28. Clack —

    He no longer has to make nice.

    Snort. He wasn’t especially nice before; that’s why he got kicked out of SFWA. Neither did anyone have any influence on his behaviour before. Being horrid is just what he does, and why should anyone want to have anything to do with that?

29. Does anyone know why Daily Science Fictiion is on Beale’s list — are the editors friends of his at all? They do a good job with the very challenging task they’ve set themselves, coming up with a readable small story every single day. True, most of what I read in that venue last year merited a shrug at most, but they have a hit often enough to make it seem like a good addition to the number of zines. To name a few somewhat-above-average pieces, there was “This Is the Humming Hour” by Kate Heartfield; “The Alien Came Over the Hill” by Karen Heuler; “The Fox Bride” by Mari Ness; “You Have Always Lived in the Castle” by Cat Rambo; “The Sorcereror’s Unattainable Gardens” by A. Merc Rustad; “A Promise Kept by Candle Flame” by Kelly Sandoval; or “Unconventional Advice for the Discerning Reader” by Sophie Wereley.

30. @Andrew Hickey

    Greg — I think the higher nomination rates and greater pre-nomination discussions (and possibly 4/6 as well) will make next year’s patterns different enough that EPH will do the rest.

    Maybe, but that’s not the result I get when I run the numbers myself. However, we have such limited information that I have to make assumptions, and some of them might be wrong. We’ll see what actually happens.

31. @Andrew HIckey – hear hear! well said.

    I’m also thinking (though it is probably a long shot), that maybe enough people will get sick of seeing Space Raptor Butt Invasion and SJWS Always Lie and Safe Space as Rape Room on the long list of Hugo Finalists that we might pass a motion to have them removed and replaced with an asterisk.

32. FTR, I only nominated things I read and thought were worthy…..and none of them were finalists. So good news/bad news!

    Also, I went into vapor lock in several categories as I couldn’t pick just one episode to nominate. But them’s the rules and on we go.

    FWIW, I won’t repeat last year’s mistake of focusing/prioritizing on the sub-novel length categories for reading.

    @TYP

    If you’re Sara “Icky transfolk are icky” Hoyt, similar.

    This came through via email subscription the other day. I’m not sure that it supports your implication about her position very well….or at all.

    Regards,
    Dann

33. (The following is a version of a comment I also posted on the Hugo discussion thread at Making Light.)

    Being a data-driven person, I threw the finalists into my Hugo 2016 spreadsheet, did some initial analysis of what I’m willing to consider voting for and came up with the following.

    Items/people I nominated are finalists in 5 categories, with a total of 9 items. Given my eclectic tastes, this is probably similar to the rate in a non-slate year. (And Novel was not one of these categories, FWIW.)

    There is something/someone I’m willing to vote for over No Award in 11 of the 16 categories.

    There are four finalists (in four categories) where one of my nominations also happened to be on the Rabid Puppy slate. Note that this is nearly half of the set of my nominations that were finalists. As I ignored the slates when drawing up my nominations, this seems a perfectly reasonable basis for ignoring the overlap when voting.

    The startling thing is how little effect the RP slate had on the potential that I could vote for a finalist that I nominated.

34. @Vasha

    Does anyone know why Daily Science Fictiion is on Beale’s list

    Part of his strategy this year seems to have been to put a qualified work in every category. I would guess his plan was to declare victory if the fans voted a qualified work below No Award (because we destroyed our own awards) and to declare victory if any of his nominated works won a Hugo. It’s a strategy that depends on him sweeping the categories. Otherwise fans would just vote for an organic work and skip the slated ones.

35. @steve davidson

    I’m also thinking (though it is probably a long shot), that maybe enough people will get sick of seeing Space Raptor Butt Invasion and SJWS Always Lie and Safe Space as Rape Room on the long list of Hugo Finalists that we might pass a motion to have them removed and replaced with an asterisk.

    Does the business meeting actually have the power to do that?

36. So long as he can gloat about sticking it to us, he wins.

    He will gloat no matter what, but that’s just winning at being an internet troll, and if that’s where your choices have led you, you have lost at life.

37. They DO have the guns after all .. and a whole lot of anger and resentment to drive them.

    Unless a reasonable proportion of the military sides with those launching a revolt, all of the guns in private hands will be almost completely irrelevant.

38. There are no sad puppies … only Zuul.

39. Does the business meeting actually have the power to do that?

    The business meeting can change the WSFS constitution itself. Other than the reluctance of the voters to actually do it, what would be the impediment to making any change?

40. Unless a reasonable proportion of the military sides with those launching a revolt, all of the guns in private hands will be almost completely irrelevant.

    you are aware of the multiple campaigns within the military to ensure exactly that? I have no actual links to back up this assertion … but a whole lot of anecdotal data. I suppose links could be found if one was willing to look …

41. I’m only getting e-mail notices about some comments. I kept seeing people quoting comments I didn’t recall seeing, so I came here to look. No way did I get e-mail notices for some of these.

    @Mike Glyer, FYI.

42. As far as I can see there is no procedural way to prevent a certain level of vandalism, other than empowering someone to screen nominations and reject some of them, which I think most people still agree would be undesirable. So as long as Beale continues to get whatever it is he gets out of this, and his followers or hirelings or whatever they are continue to do his bidding, the Hugos are likely to be vandalized annually.

43. In this context, the “Old Yeller solution” is physically non-violent. It means making people socially dead, shunning them, acting as though they do not exist. The opposite of love is indifference, not hate. I hesitate to treat people in this manner no matter what the provocation. It’s still too much like violence to treat lightly.

    I should not have used such a loaded metaphor in such troubled times, but what’s done is done. (Unless it’s undone, to which I would not object.)

    After all, every dog has his Day. This particular dog is not mine to shoot.

44. P.S. And to forestall the obvious – no they’re not in my spam filter. It looks like maybe half the comments are sending me e-mail notifications.

45. What’s done is done, and now that it’s done, I find myself remarkably at ease with the idea that the championing of Space Raptors Butt Invasion for the Hugos will be remembered as Beale’s lasting legacy to science fiction. He will now be forever associated with Chuck Tingle, while Tingle is almost certainly the only person on the slate who is utterly immune to being pounded in the butt by any negative associations with Beale.

46. you are aware of the multiple campaigns within the military to ensure exactly that?

    Yes, there are people who want to encourage military personnel to commit treason. The effectiveness of such efforts is highly questionable. In any event, the “guns in the hands of conservatives” won’t really matter one way or the other if there is a civil war: Its outcome will depend almost entirely on decisions made by those within the military.

47. StephenfromOttowa — the “certain level” matters though. One or two terrible choices on the ballot in each category? We’ve always had that, and occasionally they’ve even won. Stick them at the bottom of the ranking, no harm done. (And *because* no harm’s been done, Beale will probably give up).
    The majority of the categories with four or five choices made by one man with no motive other than malice and personal gain? That’s a different matter. Changing the rules will, hopefully, allow us to go from one situation to the other.

48. @Nigel

    What’s done is done, and now that it’s done, I find myself remarkably at ease with the idea that the championing of Space Raptors Butt Invasion for the Hugos will be remembered as Beale’s lasting legacy to science fiction.

    At a minimum, it means they’ve forever surrendered their argument that the point of the puppies was to promote excellent works that were overlooked merely due to the politics of their authors. Whenever any puppy tries to make that argument in future, all anyone has to say in reply is “Space Raptor Butt Invasion.”

    Much more effective than “Wisdom from My Internet.”

49. Andrew Hickey – I agree that one malicious finalist per category is probably survivable. If that is the effect of EPH, great, it’s highly desirable.

50. @clif

    I’m sure your anecdotal evidence is VERY convincing to you, but uh… no. There are not multiple campaigns to get a reasonable proportion of the military to side with people who try to secede from the union.

    That idea is as ridiculous as thinking that a failed presidential candidate is going to get a civil war going.

    @Aaron,

    The US military doesn’t fight on US soil. The National Guard would be called upon, and they answer to the Governor of the state that they are attached too.

    FURTHERMORE, I think that this line of discussion is ridiculous considering we’re on a thread about a Science Fiction/Fantasy award

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