241 thoughts on “Comments for 8/27”

  4. Mike, you picked a time with a lot of distractions to become ill, so some of us are behind the curve on what has been going on with you. How are you? What happened? When will you be back? You are sorely missed! Can you spare us the energy to write a few lines?

  5. @Kip W, does that make Mike Glyer not just Our Generous Host, but “Our Generous Overlord” (‘OGO’)?

    [tick]

    (and apparently, accidental fifth!)

  7. Here comes the old boss, same as the old boss?

    Almost, but not quite, second fifth. So…fifth!

  9. Essay being widely circulated today: “Ageism in SFF”.

    It’s not terribly rampant here, thank goodness, but it manifests in several things discussed here this year:

    Pearl-clutching, which originates from a stereotype of older women.

    The Puppy Wars, which have included the Puppies characterizing the alleged liberal conspiracy around the Hugos as the work of aging hippies who will soon die, resulting in a new era of artistic freedom and tolerance, and many anti-Puppies characterizing the Puppies as the last remnants of an outdated worldview which will soon die out, resulting in a new era of artistic freedom and tolerance.

    The eternal anxiety about “the graying of fandom”.

    The Broken Earth trilogy: N. K. Jemisin has written about trying to make Essun likeable, notably including that Essun is a middle-aged woman and many readers have been trained to be ageist.

  11. @Soon Lee wrote,

    [comment]

    [not-quite-successful attempt at a humorous response]

  12. Fifth and change. Strength and goodwill to all who File and to Outrageously Gracious Heroman.

    Question: so I just read Super Extra Grande, a recent translation of a novel(la?) by Cuban author Yoss, and while that particular tale was ruined beyond recommendation by a “sympathetic” misogynistic protagonist, it has given me a hunger for universes full of diverse-but-similar-enough alien life that humans have to get along with politically and socially. Any recommendations for (preferably recent) stuff along these lines that I should try next? Becky Chambers’ upcoming release is of course on pre order, and I’m also eagerly awaiting N.K. Jemisin’s Mass Effect novel, but those do not solve the problem of the now…!

  13. [ticky]

    That essay from N.K. Jemisin is really good.

    I was wondering…I’m about 3/4 through The Obelisk Gate now. Would it be possible, Mike, to have a spoiler discussion thread about it in the near future? (Maybe after you get home and are on the mend.) Because I would love to talk about it. To me, it is every bit as mind-bending as The Fifth Season.

  14. @Arifel

    it has given me a hunger for universes full of diverse-but-similar-enough alien life that humans have to get along with politically and socially

    Julie E. Czerneda has some series along those lines. I like her Web Shifters, Clan Chronicles and Species Imperative books. She’s a biologist, and her books are heavy on far-out-there but realistic aliens having to coexist with humans.

  17. Yes, I have to admit that I too don’t know the details of Mike’s hospitalization. I thought he was just under the weather or something and then I read this thing about HOSPITAL?

  18. So happy Mike has the New Thing!
    Hospital rooms are really scary, but intensely boring.

  19. I really should not have clicked on those ageism links. I’ve spent the morning struggling against the knowledge of my own worthlessness, and now I have the reminder that yes, the rest of the world agrees with the voice in my head. Ugh.

  20. And here I thought OGH stood for Original Gangsta Here.

    Obdurately grungy halibut.

  21. Nancy Sauer said:

    I’ve spent the morning struggling against the knowledge of my own worthlessness, and now I have the reminder that yes, the rest of the world agrees with the voice in my head.

    I apologize for that but hope that those links do a little bit to change the conversation in the sf community. FWIW, I am part of the rest of the world and think that voice in your head should eff off.

  22. @Petréa Mitchell Re: ageism in SFF

    While I’m now old enough to be discriminated against in some aspects, I consider myself among the “younger” SFF readers, getting only seriously into the field with the 80s cyberpunk wave and having a limited interest in pre-1970 SF. So in my perception, I see quite a bit of “reverse ageism” in fandom.

    I’ve seen quite a few people who ideologically have little in common with the puppies buy into their narrative that today’s Hugo and Nebula winners are a faint shadow of years past. I see lots of people talk un-ironically about the “Golden Age of SF” in the 1940s, while in my opinion, the retro Hugo nominees I’ve read were inferior in every aspect to the (non-slated) contemporary Hugo nominees. I see lots of people buy into the “Appendix N” mentality that a fan needs to have read a lot of 40s/50s/60s canon to be taken seriously, while being undemanding about more contemporary works.

  23. SFWA vice president M.C.A. Hogarth:

    I am all for a more civilized fandom. I am all for us being kinder to one another, and striving to understand each other’s viewpoints, experiences, and beliefs. I give people the benefit of the doubt, and because of that, I’ve enjoyed friendships with a broad gamut of people, all of whom have taught me a great deal and brought me a great deal of joy. But if we’re going to slap people on the wrists for microaggression, can we please start playing fair? Can we go after the person at the con who made knowing comments to the audience about flyover states? Can we talk to the person who was preaching radical feminist philosophy as if it was the only sensible philosophy until I said, quietly, “I’m sorry. I’m not on board with most of that.” Can we stop the toastmasters wishing that half the population would die in a fire (and leave their wealth to them)? Is my excessive discomfort also important? What about all my conservative or religious friends, and the fans who have quietly told me the only place they feel safe is in my social media spaces? What about the fans who have even more quietly told me they don’t feel safe ever?

  24. @Nancy Sauer:

    I don’t know you personally, but I will say I’m pretty damned sure you’re not worthless. I’m sure I have some entrenched ageist beliefs that I haven’t examined, but I hope people call me on them if they pop up.

    I think that voice in your head is a jerk.

    (BTW, I recently reread Paladin of Souls and how weird was it to realize that the Dowager Royina Ista was basically my age.)

  25. @microtherion: “I see lots of people talk un-ironically about the “Golden Age of SF” in the 1940s”

    Huh? That’s just a commonly understood term for that period of time – it doesn’t mean that all of those people think everything written in the ’40s was golden. There’s a similar historical shorthand in comics, where referring to “Golden Age”, “Silver Age”, etc. is common regardless of whether you think the implied value judgment is literally true.

    It was a period of unprecedented interest in the genre, which produced tons of significant writers, and it’s stylistically distinct from other periods. I’m fine with it getting its own name even if that name is a little hyperbolic.

  26. As someone who lived for several years in Indiana and Illinois, and who has large numbers of family members currently living in rural Indiana, Illinois, and Kentucky, I’m not inclined to take seriously the complaints of someone who thinks the term “flyover states” is a problem.

  28. @Aaron – I spent the first half of my life living in a flyover state and have been known to use that term and worse regarding my home state, but I’ve been trying to stop using it. It’s very, very difficult, because I still have a lot of anger and resentment about the culture I grew up in (where I am regularly called a “libtard” in a kind of offhanded way during pretty much any political conversation). But I don’t think it’s a useful term to use in public discourse. I’ve spent years hacking away at the massive chip on my shoulder regarding Christianity; the flyover state thing is another big chip I’m trying to be rid of. I just don’t see any good coming out of that kind of dismissal.

  29. Petréa Mitchell: The Broken Earth trilogy: N. K. Jemisin has written about trying to make Essun likeable, notably including that Essun is a middle-aged woman and many readers have been trained to be ageist.

    I am frankly finding the more recent fiction featuring protagonists in their 30s to 60s (Bujold, Page/Lake, Jemisin, etc) quite refreshing. When I was a teenager, sure, it was neat to read about teenagers who were utterly lacking in life experience or wisdom saving the world. Now, it just seems so unrealistic and ridiculous to me, that it pretty much makes a novel or story unpalatable.

  31. @JJ – Having just reread “Steel Magic”, I completely get that. The entire future of this magical land that is inextricably linked to this, mundane world was dependent on the decisions of four kids younger than 18. I know it’s part of the genre, but I would definitely feel a lot safer knowing the golden warrior chosen by fate to defeat the forces of darkness is at least in her 30s.

  32. Wow. Kansas City had 4.5 inches of rain over a 24 hour period yesterday. The streetcar service was suspended, highways near downtown were closed, and about 10 high water rescues. Fortunately for them, it was nowhere near as bad as Louisiana, and the flooding has basically receded.

  33. kathodus: feelings about flyover states and Christianity

    Thank you for articulating so beautifully what are my own thoughts. I didn’t put those chips on my shoulder, lots of other people did — but I’m doing my damndest to be a bigger person and take them off again.

    Most of the similar people I encounter these days are not the ones personally responsible for those chips. I try to keep reminding myself that holding those chips against them, anyway, just because they have a great deal in common with the people who are responsible, is not helpful to a meaningful dialogue.

  35. @Aaron — some people, including some who have lived in Asian countries or have family there or otherwise have some connection to them, aren’t inclined to take seriously the complaints of someone who thinks the term “Oriental” is a problem.

    The point is, the term is offensive to some folks, and if you say it publicly, the odds are good you are offending someone in your audience. If you are dismissive of that offense, it compounds the problem.

  36. I grew up in Indiana; the majority of my family lives in western Kansas. And yet I still find much value in Maggie’s piece. YMMV.

    To me it seems that dismissing concerns like Maggie’s out of hand might be part of what she’s talking about. From my perspective, I find conversations with Maggie always useful and usually illuminating. At any rate, they remind me that F&SF fandom is not as uniform as people often assume.

  37. JKT: I took Mike his new play thing [Kindle Oasis donated by Filers and FoM] this morning.

    Wonderful! Thanks to everyone who so generously made that possible!

  38. The point is, the term is offensive to some folks, and if you say it publicly, the odds are good you are offending someone in your audience.

    If there had been systemic institutionalized oppression of people in “flyover states”, I might be inclined to agree with you on that. When white straight Christians mutter about how oppressed they are in a nation and culture that have been historically structured to cater to them specifically, the only thing you can do is roll your eyes.

  39. I’ve lived in multiple US regions and also have spent a lot of time overseas, but I was born and raised in the MidWest, and it has also been my home for most of my adult life.

    I have no problem with the phrase flyover country, which I find amusing. I view it as a comment on the parochialism that can exist in the supposedly sophisticated big cities of the coasts, rather than a comment on us. (I remember going East as a young woman and meeting many people, my age and older, who were surprised that a girl or young woman from Ohio spoke well, was well-read, was familiar with ethnic food and foreign films, etc. This was most common with people from the NYC area. I didn’t see this as insulting to me or my region, but rather as an amusing example of how narrowly they viewed the world.)

  40. @kathodus

    Edward Eager dealt with this in one of his books, where [SPOILER for a chapter or so] one of the young sisters gets angry at Lancelot’s arrogance and beats him in a joust, leading to joyous cries from his foes: “Lancelot’s a chur-rul! Beaten by a gur-rul!” Things get worse and worse, till Merlin intervenes and uses the talisman to undo the damage. There’s a lesson here for young fantasy adventurers. Perhaps.

  41. Months ago, someone somewhere–and I think it was here on File 770–recommended a couple of books to me: MEDIEVAL CUISINE OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD by Lilia Zaouali and MY BOMBAY KITCHEN by Niloufer Ichaporia King, both published by the U of California Press.

    I have since bought them, and these are the coolest books for a history-loving foodie with a cooking hobby. They are history, social history, culture, food lore, and recipes. So I’ve put a bunch of other U of CA food books on my wishlist now. I BLAME YOU–whoever it was who suggested these books to me.

    I think the recommendation came up when I recommended Mary Taylor Simeti’s POMP AND SUSTENANCE (subsequently republished under the title SICILIAN FOOD), which is a similar book. it covers about 2500 years of Sicilian food history, and includes recipes. One of my favorite cookbooks, having lived in Sicily (and had the pleasure of spending a day with the author, shopping in Palermo’s ancient food markets).

  43. If someone says “this give me offense” (as in the case of people who don’t care for “flyover states”), it seems to me that a better default position is to try and avoid giving them offense. Even if you think they are wrong for feeling that way.

  44. But will just add this point to the “flyover” discussion. The great state of Ohio has given 8 Presidents to these United States. So who’s your daddy now?

  45. @Petréa Mitchell: Thank you for your kind words. I want to make clear that I hold you harmless: I looked at the name of the link, knew it was going to be bad for me, and clicked on it anyway. (Self-care is something I encourage my friends to do. Me, not so much)

  46. James Davis Nicoll: A word on WFC, routed via my LJ because not everyone is on FB. If the screenshot is unreadable, text is provided in comments.

    If you are on Facebook, you can read it here — complete with Didi Chanoch’s comment as an enlightening counterpoint.

  47. Laura Resnick: But will just add this point to the “flyover” discussion. The great state of Ohio has given 8 Presidents to these United States. So who’s your daddy now?

    That’s just because they were on the Puppy slate. 😉

  48. @Laura Resnick

    Thanks for adding to my TBR. The cookbooks look perfect for my husband and our Shabbos crew who love to cook, try new foods, and learn about history and culture. They’ll be able to cook, eat, and read while arguing over the Shabbos table. I can’t think of a better gift for a bunch of Jews. 😉

  49. But will just add this point to the “flyover” discussion. The great state of Ohio has given 8 Presidents to these United States.

    I will point out that as the phrase is commonly used, Ohio is not really a “flyover state”. The formulation is most often used in Presidential politics, with the states of middle America being “flown over” by candidates on their way to places where electoral votes are more plentiful (and, in most cases “in play”). There is almost no reason for a candidate of either party to stop in the “flyover states”, because they reliably vote one way or the other (although mostly Republican). Romney, for example spent almost no time in Kansas and won the state by twenty points.

    Ohio, as a “swing state”, isn’t really flyover country in this sense. Neither is Colorado, although it is surrounded by flyover states.

    Also, the phrase was originated by a resident of Montana who had been born in Michigan as a self-description of the region.

  50. Laura Resnick on August 27, 2016 at 12:58 pm said:

    I think I’m the guilty party. (I’m fond of cookbooks. And Middle Eastern food – Persian is especially fine, if you’re not allergic to any of the ingredients. It’s related to everything from India to Greece.)

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