(1) BAYCON. The Mercury News shared its very positive impression of last weekend’s BayCon: “Bay Area science fiction fans beam up to San Mateo to talk Star Trek, transgender fans and activism”.
…Speakers over the weekend included Brianna Wu, a congressional candidate from Massachusetts who was one of the most high-profile victims of an online harassment campaign aimed at women in the video game industry in recent years.
In conversations with the attendees on Sunday — an intimacy organizer Chris Castro said is a selling point of BayCon over larger conventions — Wu and moderator Gregg Castro discussed activist burnout and creating spaces for people who want to help but may not be comfortable canvassing or making phone calls. Wu also encouraged more women to run for office, calling it “the best job in the world.”
Also presenting at that panel was Sarah Williams, who grew up in Fremont and now lives in Davis. She said discussing social issues and activism is “almost necessary” in science fiction because it’s so forward-looking. The panels are also useful in fans’ personal lives, she said. As a queer woman, Williams said she knew she had to be supportive when her daughter told her she was a transgender girl.
Still, she said, she needed guidance on what support her daughter would need. She could access that through panels such as “Transfans,” a presentation held on Sunday morning about transgender science fiction fans. Williams said she also knew she could look up the speakers and reach out to them for advice.
However, Sumiko Saulson was present at another panel which didn’t reflect that kind of acceptance, and wrote about the experience on Facebook:
I’m reluctant to get into what happened when I was on a panel yesterday because it was fairly traumatic, but the short of it is that a well-known author guest (David Brin) started the panel by saying he wouldn’t trust regular Americans with this but we’re alpha sci fi writers, then went into a very ableist spiel about how we all know some beings – including, specifically certain humans, and he referenced the developmentally disabled – are inferior, people are just too politically correct to say so. Then he asked a moral dilemma question about if it would be more ethical to uplift animals and have them as servants than to genetically alter humans as servants and make them low IQ
Then he got into an argument with a young enby [non-binary] person in the audience who was sitting near Darcy (Chris Hughes) and the rest of the extremely poorly moderated panel included lots of yelling between the audience and panel, as he’d set the tone. He seemed to be intentionally asking baited or loaded questions….
(The report goes on for several more paragraphs in which some panelists’ conduct grew even more disturbing.)
(2) ANIMENEXT UPDATE. As a result of harassment allegations against AnimeNEXT chair Eric Torgersen (see Pixel Scroll for May 22, item #4), he has been suspended while the con’s board of directors investigate. They made the following announcement on Facebook over the weekend:
…as of April 14th, 2019, Eric Torgersen has been suspended from AnimeNEXT staff, pending this investigation, and will not be present at the 2019 event. AnimeNEXT and Universal Animation, Inc. have hired a neutral third party to conduct the investigation.
Additionally, Mr. Torgersen has not been a member of the board since 2018 and has not been Convention Chairman since 2017.
AnimeNEXT and Universal Animation, Inc. want our convention to be a safe and positive experience. As such, we do not condone harassment of any kind. We appreciate your patience and understanding until this investigation is completed.
Sincerely,
The Universal Animation Inc. Board of Directors
(3) ENTERPRISING FANS. Ernest Lilley tells Amazing Stories readers all about the Museum of Science Fiction’s weekend event: “MOSF Escape Velocity 2019 — Dominique Tipper GoH “.
While Amazing Stories editor Steve Davidson was holding down a booth at Balticon, the Capital Region’s largest sci-fi convention, I was an hour away at the Museum of Science Fiction’s annual convention: Escape Velocity 2019.
Escape Velocity is a different sort of con than anything else in sci-fi. Visually it looks like a media con, with lots of large-scale movie props and cosplayers, but behind the closed panel doors, there’s a serious attempt to create a fusion of pop-sci-fi culture, accessible science, resources for educators, and even a few policy wonks talking about the future of space conflict….
(4) PROOF NEGATIVE. Fabrice Mathieu unblushingly presents MOON SHINING » or: How Stanley Kubrick shot the Apollo 11 Mission? — “an imaginative behind the scenes of the Moon Landing of Apollo 11 directed by Stanley Kubrick in 1969!”
(5) MOON COLLECTIBLES AUCTION. And yet people bid millions on Heritage Auction’s Spring Space Exploration Auction #6206
This was the second installment of The Armstrong Family Collection™ (TAFC) and, when the floor sessions were over, the top seven and fifteen of the top twenty sale prices were TAFC lots. A section of Lunar Module Flown Wright Flyer Wing Cloth and a Lunar Module Flown Wright Flyer Propeller Piece tied for top price at $175,000 each. Currently, the total sales are $4.579 million with Post-Auction Buys continuing.
(6) WHO’S TOXIC? Marvel’s Captain Marvel is coming out on Blu-Ray, heralded by the release of an extended version of a scene from the film. It’s caused an uproar.
Stylist takes this side: “Why Captain Marvel’s deleted scene on toxic masculinity has angered trolls”.
… Captain Marvel counters with a handshake and introduces herself. The man tells her: “People call me… The Don.”
Releasing an unimpressed “wow”, Captain Marvel then unleashes her superhero powers on the man, sending electrical pulses through her hand, forcing the man to his knees in pain.
“Here’s a proposition for you,” she says. “You’re going to give me your jacket, your helmet and your motorcycle, and in return, I’m going to let you keep your hand.”
He quickly hands over his keys, and Captain Marvel lets go, adding: “What, no smile?”
In just a minute-long scene, Captain Marvel sums up what’s wrong with men telling women to smile, and unsurprisingly, that’s made some men angry.
…The men criticising the scene — and attacking Larson — are missing the point, and being purposefully obtuse as to its message.
Yes, it shows Captain Marvel using her powers to harm someone else, but plenty of superheroes before her have done exactly the same, and gone much further than she did. That Captain Marvel is called out for behaviour that male superheroes have got away with for decades is sexist.
And saying the scene will hurt “feminist causes” is a fundamental misunderstanding of what feminism is about — women want equality, and that partially means dismantling the idea that the only good women are nice women.
Max Florschutz takes the other side in “The Captain Marvel Kerfluffle”.
…. Both sides have, as you can predictably guessed, gone up in arms. Both make some good points, and both make some bad points.
However, the reason I chose to take some time out of my crunched day to post about this was because at its core, the argument Disney’s marketing team and the writers of Captain Marvel have claimed is … well, wrong.
Vers isn’t a hero in that scene. Not by any definition of the term. And to see people so aggressively defending Vers actions as “heroic,” even the writing team? Well … I think that’s in part why the Captain Marvel had the problems it had.
See, the problem isn’t that the scene exists, but that people, creators included, are insisting that it is “heroic.” And it isn’t. It’s far from it, in fact, unless you’re aiming to redefine “heroism” as something completely different. Which I don’t think the writers are trying to do … They just genuinely don’t seem to know what heroism is.
Already there are people defending the “heroism” of the scene online by saying that naysayers are only unhappy because it’s “a woman,” declaring that no one had issues with a male character doing similar in Terminator 2.
No. Because in Terminator 2 the T-800 is nota hero. He’s an anti-hero. If someone declares that heroic, than they’re wrong. Flat out. He threatens physical harm to innocents because he doesn’t care, and has no morals. Classic anti-hero trait.
Vers threatening a slimy guy past simply shutting him down isn’t heroism with the goal of stealing his possessions isn’t heroism. It’s the mark of an anti-hero, just as it was with the T-800….
(7) DOGGONE IT. This week New Zealand’s Stuff showed that a problem persists: “Game of Thrones fans buying huskies from unregistered breeders”.
…A New Zealand husky rescue charity that has dealt with hundreds of abandoned dogs after Game of Thrones ramped up the breed’s popularity is pushing for reform outlawing “backyard breeders.”
Michelle Attwood, who founded the Canterbury-based charity Husky Rescue NZ in 2009, said that hundreds of huskies had been abandoned to her charity every year since Game of Thrones launched – their TV connection clear through names like Ghost, Nymeria, Stark and Snow.
Huskies have become a real “status symbol,” she said, with Thrones fans driving a vicious cycle.
Peter Dinklage publicized the problem in 2017:
At the time he released a statement:
‘Game of Thrones’ star Peter Dinklage is asking fans to stop buying huskies as pets just because they resemble the fictional direwolves in the blockbuster HBO show. The actor warns fans the pups still need constant care after the novelty wears off. “Not only does this hurt all the deserving homeless dogs waiting for a chance at a good home in shelters, but shelters are also reporting that many of these huskies are being abandoned,” Dinklage said Tuesday in a statement released by PETA.
(8) TODAY’S BIRTHDAYS.
[Compiled by Cat Eldridge.]
- Born May 28, 1908 — Ian Fleming. The James Bond novels of course which are no doubt genre but also Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang which originally was published in three volumes and became a much beloved film. Like Heinlein, he would do a travelogue, this one called Thrilling Cities. (Died 1964.)
- Born May 28, 1951 — Sherwood Smith, 68. YA writer best known for her Wren series. She’s also co-authored The Change Series with Rachel Manija Brown. She also co-authored two novels with Andre Norton, Derelict for Trade and A Mind for Trade.
- Born May 28, 1954 — Betsy Mitchell, 65. Editorial freelancer specializing in genre works. She was the editor-in-chief of Del Rey Books. Previously, she was the Associate Publisher of Bantam Spectra when they held the license to publish Star Wars novels in the Nineties.
- Born May 28, 1977 — Ursula Vernon, 42. She is best known for her Hugo Award-winning graphic novel Digger which was a webcomic from 2003 to 2011. Vernon is also the creator of The Biting Pear of Salamanca, a digital work of art which became an internet meme in the form of the LOL WUT pear.
- Born May 28, 1982 — Alexa Davalos, 37. Her first genre role i think was Gwen Raiden on the fourth season of Angel. She‘s Juliana Crain currently on The Man in the High Castle. And she was Andromeda in the remake of Clash of the Titans.
(9) HUGO AWARDS ON JEOPARDY! TOMORROW.For once you get the news before the show is aired. Kevin Standlee says, “The Hugo Awards will be featured in a category on Jeopardy! on Wednesday, May 29.”
(10) DARKNESS FALLS. Fantasy Book Critic weighs in on “Necromantica by Keith Blenman (reviewed by Lukasz Przywoski)”.
…Necromantica is, essentially, a love story. You feel it in the way Lama speaks to Mornia. You see it in Mornia’s behavior. Remember, they’re not sharing a drink. They’re in the midst of the battle and they slaughter enemies. Call it a dark fantasy romance. I mean, you don’t write a story called Necromantica without it being dark, right?
Lama and Mornia share heart-wrenching stories. Mornia used to live a free, spiritual life and wanted to grow into a healer. By the time the story begins, her life has been robbed from her and ell her loved ones killed. She survived, but she’s broken. Whatever magic she possessed, she used for revenge. Instead of healing people, she focused on black arts and necromancy. …
(11) BY THE HAIR ON THEIR CHINNY-CHIN-CHIN. SYFY Wire’s “Fangrrls” column has published a “scientific” study entitled “A very serious cultural study on beards and which dudes look hotter with them.”
To beard or not to beard, that is the question.
Last year, when the Avengers: Infinity War trailer revealed that Chris Evans’ Steve Rogers had grown a beard, the internet went wild. How is it possible that Evans, this hunky cinnamon roll of a golden retriever boy scout bro, could get even hotter? It was almost unfair, yet there it was. We mourned the loss of Cap-beard for an extended period of time on SYFY FANGRRLS, but it also got us thinking as to what it was about some well-organized facial hair that had us all aflutter.
It turns out that there’s a scientific reason for that. It’s not just pure shallowness! According to a study in 2013 on the subject, facial hair acts as a major influence in shaping people’s ideas about what we expect from men in society. The study revealed that “women judged faces with heavy stubble as most attractive and heavy beards, light stubble and clean-shaven faces as similarly less attractive.” For men, it was the opposite case, with full beards as the most attractive. Those conducted for the study also revealed that full beards were judged as an excellent sign of parenting ability and healthiness, so all your daddy Steve Rogers jokes paid off in a big way.
They go on to judge the beard-appeal and stylings for Jason Momoa, Chris Evans, Henry Cavill, Chris Hemsworth, John Krasinski, Rahul Kohli, Keanu Reeves, and Jason Mantzoukas.
(12) LOVE THAT MECHA. Future War Stories tunes into Japanese TV in “Future War Stories From the East: Armored Troopers VOTOMS”.
…Many of the more famous anime and manga is often defined and remembered because of a certain iconic character, unique setting, or piece of machinery (which is often Mecha). Some imported Japanese animations or comics are lucky enough to be imported wholly to the West along with other associated products like models, video games, or toys. Others were not so lucky and came over to our shores in pieces and over a great length of time, forging fans along with way….
…What is “Armored Trooper VOTOMS”? VOTOMS is the brainchild of Fang of the Sun Dougram creator Ry?suke Takahashi and despite being developed in 1983, VOTOMS is still an on-going Japanese military science fiction franchise encompassing anime TV series, OVAs, video games, models, and toys. At about the time that Fang of the Sun Dougram was ending its run on Japanese television, Takahashi and Nippon Sunrise animation studio would continue the mecha-centered war stories with the VOTOMS 52 episode television show that aired on TV Tokyo from April 1st, 1983 through March 23rd, 1984….
(13) NOVELLA NOTIONS. Garik16’s Hugo finalist reviews continue with — “Reviewing the 2019 Hugo Nominees: Best Novella”.
Hugo Award voting just opened at the start of May and continues through the end of July. For those of you new to the Science Fiction/Fantasy genre, the Hugo Award is one of the most prominent awards for works in the genre, with the Award being given based upon voting by those who have paid for at least a Supporting Membership in this year’s WorldCon. As I did the last two years, I’m going to be posting reviews/my-picks for the award in the various categories I feel qualified in, but feel free to chime in with your own thoughts in the comments….
(14) COLLECTIBLE HARDCOVERS. Gizmodo/io9: “Folio Society Is Doing Special Editions for All of A Song of Ice and Fire…If It’s Ever Finished”.
The Folio Society recently announced that it was releasing a special collector’s edition of A Game of Thrones, the first novel in George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series. Now, on the cusp of the series finale for HBO’s Game of Thrones, it looks like we can expect even more—the entire A Song of Ice and Fire, including those famously still-unwritten books. Of course, that all depends on whether Martin ever finishes them.
In a statement to io9, the Folio Society’s representative confirmed that it was following up its A Game of Thrones hardcover edition with other books in the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The publisher says the project is a collaborative with Martin, who’s been involved “every step of the way.” The first book is available for preorder, and is set to come out on July 16.
(15) [PROCESSOR] POWER TO THE PEOPLE. “The tablet computer pulled by donkey” – BBC has the story, and a photo:
Back in 2016, mobile technology the like of which had not been seen before rolled into the remote community of Funhalouro, in Mozambique.
Pulled by donkey, the container consisted of four LCD screens, powered by solar panels.
It was a mobile roadshow, starting with music to draw a crowd and then switching to a three-minute film on the biggest of the screens.
While the topic – digital literacy – was not the most entertaining, it was engaging for the audience, many of whom had never seen a screen or moving images before.
After the film, the audience was invited to use smaller touchscreen tablets to answer a series of questions about what they had seen.
There were prizes of T-shirts and caps for those with the highest scores.
For those who couldn’t read, the questions were posed in diagram form….
(16) VIDEO OF THE DAY. In “The Shocking Truth of Lightsabers vs. Lightning,” on YouTube, Martin Archer, a physicist at Britain’s Queen Mary’s University, says that if lightsabers are made of plasma, having two of them blast each other is a bad idea and having lightning bolts sent toward a lightsaber is a really bad idea.
[Thanks to Martin Morse Wooster, Mike Kennedy, JJ, Chip Hitchcock, Cat Eldridge, John King Tarpinian. Carl Slaughter, and Andrew Porter for some of these stories. Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editor of the day Kurt Busiek.]
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First!
Deep in Hugo reading – am enjoying revisiting Jo Walton’s Hugo history (which I followed back when it was on Tor).
(1) Okay, I gotta say it.
What the heck is wrong with Brin? How does a smart guy manage to be that stupid?
(6) That guy trying to harass Vers and discovering he’d bit off more than he could chew wasn’t an innocent, by any stretch of the imagination. That Max Florschutz thinks he is, is an excellent example of the problem.
(7) A. Stop buying, adopting, or otherwise acquiring huskies because they look sort of like the dogs on Game of Thrones. They are lovely, sweet, high-energy, strong-willed dogs, who need a lot of exercise, who “sing” in a way that will drive your neighbors bananas and quite possibly force you to move–or surrender them to a shelter, if you weren’t prepared with a plan for training and exercising them, and the commitment to stick with it. Also, for readers/viewers in warmer climes, these are dogs that can legitimately be kept as outside dogs in places with snow on the ground. Under no circumstances do they belong in places where a dusting of snow is a rare and nearly catastrophic event.
B. Fuck PETA. Stop citing PETA as a source on animal welfare. They are not an animal welfare organization. PETA’s goal is the extinction of all domestic animals. They want zero contact between humans and animals. They don’t state that clearly in their public campaigns, usually, but read their damned website and other materials. They advocate killing every cat, and every dog that can be described as a “pit bull,” on intake into a shelter, and that’s only because those are the animals they think they can get away with advocating “kill on intake” for.
(8) Happy birthday Oor Wombat!
Lis Carey: Max doesn’t think he’s an innocent, he thinks Vers’ treatment of the guy is unworthy of the character.
@1: given past instances, I wouldn’t be surprised at Brin being sexist; I hadn’t heard that he’d branched out into other isms.
@8: I remember Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang being a relatively modest-size novel; how did they break it into 3 books? Or was the version I read in 1965 trimmed to fit in one? I’d call the movie marmite rather than much-loved, but I haven’t sat through more than scraps.
@14: at least beards are mostly harmless; the BBC reports that men who put too much … energy … into looking studly can affect their fertility.
@Lis: Florschutz calls Vers’s victim a “slimy guy”; “innocent” is in the previous paragraph, referring to some of the victims of the Terminator. (edit: @OGH has said what I continued with, more compactly.)
Edit: Fifth!
Vers’ victim was engaged in harassing her, and Max thinks she should have been nicer to him. No, she shouldn’t have been. He needs to be thinking about Vers, next time he’s thinking of harassing another woman.
No actual harm done, so it’s all cool, right? What’s he got to complain about?
And that scene establishes that she didn’t steal the bike from an actual innocent.
(It’s possible you don’t quite get how enraging instructions to smile from random guys are. Even when not wrapped in a demand for unearned gratitude for unwanted “offers of help.”)
6) Have to agree it is not heroical, but hey, it is a power fantasy. They aren’t limited to boys. This is a standard trope that has been used forever with regards to male heroes.
(1) My own BayCon experience moderating a panel (not the one mentioned) on which Brin declined to acknowledge the existence of the other panelists left me bewildered by why any convention would invite him.
Is it not heroic? I mean, what percentage of the population would cheer? (If provided a safe venue to offer their true feelings.) I suspect it’s quite high. And isn’t that, in some sense, a measure of whether something is heroic?
(We’ll ignore the classical definition of heroic, since that often involves straight-up villainy.)
(1) Baycon was hella (as we say in Northern California) fun from my POV. I missed that particular panel (exhausted from my book launch party) but saw some good ones and bought a print of armor-clad rabbits.
(6) I’m thinking of the scene in Blazing Saddles where the defeated gunfighters were not just asked to smile, they were encouraged to applaud. That “thank me for the abuse you just received” trope has been corny for a long time.
At the time Carol takes the guy’s bike, she’s an alien (so far as she knows) warrior on a mission; she has no clear identification with Earth. She’s not a superhero, she’s a soldier. She needs clothes and transport, and this guy annoying her has both.
She also swipes clothes from a store display, and nobody’s hyperventilating that that’s theft, despite the store owner being presumably more of an innocent than the biker jerk.
I think it’s just fine for her character as it stands at that point; she might not do it later, but it works there. On the other hand, she might do it later; she’s not Captain America, and not all superheroes are the same.
I don’t think anyone would have blinked if Hawkeye or the Black Widow* had done something like that. Indeed, Hawkeye commits much more serious crimes in the next movie, and everyone wants to track him down and make sure he’s okay. I don’t think we’re going to see him being prosecuted in the upcoming Spider-Man movie.
*well, maybe the Black Widow. Despite being a ruthlessly trained ex-assassin, as a woman, many audience members expect her to be nice.
Vers is more like Tony Stark than Steve Rogers, with a similar swaggering verging on overconfidence in her own abilities. I find it telling that the qualities admired in a man is derided in a woman.
Dear Chip,
The thing I truly don’t get in l’affaire Baycon is how David ended up being the moderator on ANY panels! I’ve heard people talk about this being an example of the failure of the “whisper network,” but among con folk, David’s nature is as widely known as Harlan Ellison’s was. I’m sure many readers and convention attendees might not know this about David (as they might not about Harlan), but it was no secret among those who run such things.
One can argue whether someone as problematical as Harlan (or David) should be invited to be a convention guest of honor. That’s another debate. But no one in their right mind would ever make Harlan the moderator of a panel, knowing who he was.
David, even more so. Regardless of what he may think he is doing, he regularly insults people at a level that is truly stunning. (I have been present for one of his escapades and been left literally at a loss for words. So has Paula Lieberman, on a different occasion, with the same reaction. How often have you known EITHER of us to ever be at a loss for words?!)
David acts as though he thinks he is the smartest kid in the room and the greatest thing since sliced bread and is entitled to be the center of all attention. By no stretch of the imagination is someone who behaves that egocentrically suitable to be a panel moderator. One of the reasons we have strong moderators is to control people like that!
The programming people at Baycon are neither stupid nor ignorant nor inexperienced. How David ended up in the role of moderator is currently beyond my fathoming.
(Note to people who aren’t familiar with convention running — the duties and perks of being a Guest of Honor at a convention do not usually include being a panel moderator. I mean, they can be one, but it doesn’t come with the territory.)
– pax \ Ctein
[ Please excuse any word-salad. Dragon Dictate in training! ]
======================================
— Ctein’s Online Gallery. http://ctein.com
— Digital Restorations. http://photo-repair.com
======================================
(6) Who’s toxic? The Don is.
Apart from fourthing Lis Carey and Kurt Busiek and Soon Lee, I note that this kerfuffle is playing out on the usual lines. Many note that invading a woman’s space and demanding a smile (or a date, a view of her breasts or sex) happens a good deal in real life, and men getting a refusal from such women may respond with acting offended, verbal abuse, assault, rape or murder. In this sense, the scene establishes Vers’ physical power on Earth and plays into the old trope of “the biter bit”. But the shorter version of the scene, actually used in the movie, does this, as well.
Much of the outrage about it that I’ve seen is bad-faith posturing, but there is also some incomprehension from (largely male) commenters who simply don’t know that The Don is a threat: strangers don’t “ask” them for smiles and/or sex and do not back requests with physical force. As a very mild example, I’ve been on the receiving end of some bone-crusher handshakes, designed to prove male dominance, so I knew what I was seeing and I did not feel sorry for “The Don” at all.
It’s not heroic. Vers discovers that she isn’t a hero. Captain Marvel will be.
Yeah, sorry Max. The problem isn’t with Captain Marvel, it’s with you.
(6) I think the scene works better as abbreviated in the theatre, but the longer version is a more direct callout to The Terminator.
And yes, this is assault and robbery and illegal, so she’s a criminal at this point. Duh – her day job is murdering Scrulls.
“Sure, we’re criminals”, you said. “We’ve always been criminals”. “We have to be criminals”.
People cheer for all sorts of reasons. In this case for a character doing what everyone have wanted to do at sometime. It is like the scene in Groundhog Day where Bill Murray socks the annoying insurance salesman and everyone cheers.
8) Sherwood Smith has also written the Inda Quartett, which is (non YA) high Fantasy. I’ve only read the first one (the local online book shop had only book 1 & 3 stocked), which is a great coming of age story and one of the best examples of omniscient narrator that I’ve seen.
Endorsing all the other comments.
1. Vers isn’t a superhero at this point yet
2. It’s all part of a Terminator homage
3. There are very different standards across MCU characters of acceptable behaviour (even so flippin’ STEVE ROGERS does some major violence to innocent police officers in Civil War who were just trying to do their job and arrest an apparent terrorist assassin)
4. The guy was an arse
5. It’s a DELETED SCENE, aside from it being fiction, it didn’t even happen within the bounds of that fiction
6) Make a remark, get a beatdown. Sounds like toxic masculinity to me.
John A Arkansawyer: Make a remark, get a beatdown. Sounds like toxic masculinity to me
First of all, that wasn’t “a remark”. It was harassment. A lot of people don’t recognize it as such, because they grew up being taught that harassment was perfectly acceptable behavior coming from men.
Would what she did be okay in real life? Of course not. But every woman who has endured dozens, or even hundreds of incidents like that — being told to smile by some asshole as if she’s a performing dog who is obligated to entertain him, being on the receiving end of, then being expected to show gratitude for, “favors” which are neither needed nor wanted, and which sometimes make things worse for the woman rather than better — undoubtedly stood up and cheered when they saw it. Some of them, like me, probably played it more than once, just to finally see some smug bastard getting what he deserves.
Because, of course, we don’t get to give men hard rejections in real life. If we do, we get assaulted or killed for having the temerity to say “no”.
Guys think “hey, it’s just an offer, what’s the harm?” What they don’t realize (or possibly don’t care about) is that the woman might be on the receiving end of such encounters several times a day, and many times a week. She’s being continually harassed, but the guys don’t consider themselves to be harassers, because for them it’s just a one-off. (Of course, it’s not a one-off, because a guy who does this to one woman is doing this to a lot of women.)
Anyone defending the toxic dude in this scene gets a hard side-eye from me.
@John A Arkansawyer Sounds like toxic masculinity to me.
Register another man who feels threatened by even the hypothetical thought of consequences for bad behaviour. And let’s not have any illusions about where the discomfort that drives all these hot takes about “heroic behaviour” is coming from.
It occurs to me that part of the reason asshats are having trouble with the motorbike scene is that they also seem to have this entirely fanciful idea that there is no character growth within the movie. I don’t know what movie they saw, if they saw it, but as Kurt says, this is Vers before she becomes human, becomes a hero. I guess if you buy into the no growth idea then this is also Captain Marvel at the end of Endgame. And you’re an asshat.
6) As noted above and elsewhere, this feels like toxic masculinity to me.
Hampus Eckerman on May 29, 2019 at 12:36 am said:
People cheer for all sorts of reasons. In this case for a character doing what everyone have wanted to do at sometime. It is like the scene in Groundhog Day where Bill Murray socks the annoying insurance salesman and everyone cheers.
Or the scene in the diner at the end of Superman II. I remember it getting a big cheer in the theater back in the day, and Clark totally picked that fight.
(And it doesn’t need to be said that this wasn’t a deleted scene–it was right there in the final cut for everybody to see.)
@Acoistic Rob: Have you forgotten those same guys had brutally beaten up a powerless Clark Kent in an earlier scene? The audience was applauding payback.
@JJ: I think that means we agree that verbal assault doesn’t justify escalation to physical assault, no matter how satisfying the physical assault might be to watch.
@Sophie Jane: “Register another man who feels threatened by even the hypothetical thought of consequences for bad behaviour.”
Or maybe I’ve seen up close and personal the sort of thuggish macho one-upmanship you praise coming from a woman. One guy is a dick; the next guy is a bigger dick. Yay for the bigger dick! May the biggest dick win! Have you ever had someone crush your hand when you thought it was going to be shaken? It’s a dick move even done to a dick.
“Do Be A Dick Day” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Pixel scroll, pixel scroll, eat them up, Yum!
John A Arkansawyer: I think that means we agree that verbal assault doesn’t justify escalation to physical assault, no matter how satisfying the physical assault might be to watch.
Sure. Now all we have to do is figure out how to agree on the difference between “a remark” and “harassment”.
@Steve Green–
This was payback, too.
For about a billion women, minimum.
Every woman, and many men, watching that scene, knows it. The men who don’t are guys I would not choose to be in an isolated place with.
@John A. Arkansawyer–
Please, do enlighten us poor, ignorant wimmins what Vers should have done in response to Biker Guy’s threatening behavior? Should she have smiled? Apologized for not immediately accepting his help? Gone off on his bike with him?
And why no concern about her stealing from the shop owner, who actually was innocent? Just concern that she was “a bigger dick” to the guy who harassed and threatened her?
I go with those who say the Captain Marvel scene was part of a character arc. Apparently, it’s easier to accept an arc if a character has the right chromosomes to start with.
Pix-Lax: The Intergalactic Laxative’ll get you from here to Mars.
It was definitely payback. And it was definitely great to cheer along, whether or not it was the goodie-two-shoes thing to do. Max Florschutz seems to be hinging his argument on the fact that it was behaviour unbecoming a hero. (He further seems to think she has no character arc where she becomes a hero, and therefore the writing is bad. There may be a hint of an implication here that he would have done a better job, if only they would have given him the chance.) He says at several points that the writers have claimed that this particular incident we’re discussing is heroic. Have they? I’ve googled and googled and haven’t been able to find a quote by the writers (or marketers) concerning this specific clip. Does such a remark exist?
I guess it’s time to admit that yes, I do in fact find my developmentally disabled sister to be superior to myself and other NTs in many ways. She is unfailingly compassionate to others and to herself, she understands that love is more important than money, she has baller fashion sense, and she never puts anyone down for falling short even though they tried their best. She’s also never advocated for slavery or eugenics. I’ve kept quiet about this until now because it’s so politically incorrect to say that people of average and superior intelligence are the cause of most of the world’s problems.
I’m glad that David Brin has helped me see past this hang up.
@John A Arkansawyer Or maybe I’ve seen up close and personal the sort of thuggish macho one-upmanship you praise coming from a woman.
Isn’t it interesting that the first time I can remember you speaking out against toxic masculinity is when you can accuse a woman of perpetuating it, though?
And, similarly, isn’t it interesting that so many men here are having very earnest conversations about heroism and justification and character arcs that I don’t remember happening with, say, Guardians of the Galaxy?
@Mike
Sorry to bother you, but is it possible to change my display name on the above to “Sophie Jane”? Autofill caught me out and I’d rather not have that name permanently up in public here.
6) I agree that the biker deserved what he got. In retrospect, Vers was actually quite merciful considering that her fellow Kree warriors would have probably killed him outright.
(6) interesting that the discussion here is divided along the same lines as the one I saw earlier on The Mary Sue (only with better grammar and analysis – thanks, Filers). Whyever could that be?
6.) Just adding my voice to those who found that particular scene from Captain Marvel to be somewhat…satisfactory, shall we say? And perhaps a wee bit of foreshadowing of the last scene with Yon-Rogg? The Don was an example of toxic masculinity on the hoof, and I’m sure that Carol Danvers had plenty of exposure to such treatment long before she became Vers. Even if she didn’t directly remember it, that’s the kind of experience which does linger.
1) Some of these kinds of questions David Brin was throwing at the audience were put into a story by Piers Anthony, called “In the Barn” that appeared in DANGEROUS VISIONS 1966. Ought to check it out.
The Incel Song Of J Alfred Prufrock:
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-incel-song-of-j-alfred-prufrock?fbclid=IwAR2C6iQgySdXJbs1On-gfh3jMVJmcLz1wvG5IYMApD822uYQsAbN7ITcdj0
@Sophie Jane: “Isn’t it interesting that the first time I can remember you speaking out against toxic masculinity is when you can accuse a woman of perpetuating it, though?”
Interesting in what sense? Please explain.
@John A. Arkansawyer–
You don’t find toxic masculinity objectionable. You only find dickhead men getting pushback from women who turn out not to be fragile flowers objectionable.
Definitely a guy women need to avoid being in isolated situations with.
Come on, tell us how YOU think Vers should have handled that situation. What would have been “right” in your mind?
(1) I’m surprised the topic of finding a “cure” for homosexuality never came up. It’s a complex issue, though. (E.g. Why am I offended if someone suggests I should look into a cure for being gay, but it’s fine for someone to suggest I look into laser eye surgery for nearsightedness?) Probably best discussed in-person over a beer though–not online or on a panel.
What would have made it more interesting (strictly from the perspective of an SF story) would be if they’d discussed a world where you could change but also change back. So an autistic person could try being non-autistic for a month, say, and then switch back if he/she didn’t like it. Baseline people could even try being autistic for a while, if only to get a better understanding.
Or, in the case of sexual attraction (gay or straight), think what a change it would make if someone could say, “I don’t really think of you that way, but you’re a really nice person, so I’d be willing to split the cost of a realignment and see how it goes.”
Or, “We’re committed to monogamy, so every year on our anniversary we get a couple’s tuneup so we’re not attracted to anyone but each other.”
Or even “Thanks for the offer, but I turned off my sexual response completely until I finish my dissertation.”
A conversion technology that’s only used to make everyone more like the baseline is ultimately unimaginative.
Liz Carey says And why no concern about her stealing from the shop owner, who actually was innocent? Just concern that she was “a bigger dick” to the guy who harassed and threatened her?
I got an implied rape possibility in that scene if she she didn’t cooperate with him. That she didn’t do more harm to him is more a matter of filming restraints than anything else.
Three thin volumes with cliffhanger endings aimed at a younger audience. The wikipedia entry says that Vol. 1 had 46 pages. (The omnibus edition from the same publisher is about 126 pages.)
I wonder if reaction to the movie is in part determined if you read the book first. (Or had the book read to you as it was in my case.) I found the movie a real disappointment, but then I’m not sure if I would have liked it had I never read the book.
Has anyone read the more recent sequels by Frank Cottrell-Boyce?
Scroll me some pixels and file hacks, I don’t care if I never get back
@Cat Eldridge–
As did I, but John A. Arkansawyer assures us it was just “a remark.” Honest! (And how do we do the eyeroll emoji?)
@Greg: Much of what you’re talking about is a major feature of Delany’s Trouble on Triton. Delany depicts most people as doing pretty well with that degree of choice, with the notable exception of the main character.
I was going on the various descriptions of the scene rather than watching it myself. Now I have. I don’t hear the cracking bones others heard in the scene, which makes it more acceptable to me, as this guy doesn’t deserve maiming. Some comeuppance? Sure. If someone’s bike has to get stolen, why not his?
@ Greg Hullender: I’m reading a lot of Greg Egan at the moment (his forthcoming Best collection–yowza!), and your post rings various Eganian bells. Also some Varleyish chimes.
And who knows what any of us might be in a thoroughly different (that is, differently encumbered) cultural context, eh?