aka A Puppy Thing Happened on the Way to the INB Performing Arts Center
Although the roundups generally copy little material from the File 770 comment section, it is heavily represented today. The roll call includes: L.E. Modesitt Jr., Lee Wise, Vox Day, Lela E. Buis, Bruce Baugh, Kary English, Lis Carey, Spacefaring Kitten, Laura “Tegan” Gjovaag, Dave Weingart, Christopher Chupik, Declan Finn, Kyra, and a few Shy Others. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Paul Oldroyd and ULTRAGOTHA.)
File 770 Meetup is planned for Sasquan. https://t.co/qRbnBFoCIl
— sasquansf (@sasquansf) June 25, 2015
L.E. Modesitt Jr.
“The Illusion of Social Media” – June 26
One of the great benefits touted by exponents of social media is that it brings people together. It does indeed, but each social media group brings together only those sharing similar views.
A good example of this lies in the “sad puppies/rabid puppies” kerfuffle involving “slate voting” to determine the nominees for the annual World Science fiction awards. The situation continues and appears to be getting increasingly acrimonious, with partisans on each side making declarations and demands, and even threatening the boycott of the books of one major F&SF publisher because of the intemperate comments of two employees on social media.
From what I can tell, this acrimony likely involves at most perhaps several thousand individuals, and probably less than a few hundred who are deeply involved and committed… and who feel that the entire literary “culture” of fantasy and science fiction is threatened in one way or another, with the “liberal” side declaring that “traditional” F&SF is the bastion of old white males who embody all of those stereotypes, and the “sad/rabid puppy” side declaring that the liberals have hijacked F&SF into everything they detest, including novels that focus on multi-culturalism, gender diversity, extreme environmentalism, etc. Each side is industriously employing social media to assail the other.
The truth is that F&SF is big enough for both sides, and in fact is far bigger than either…..
Lee Wise on Lee’s Blog
“They came for the fen…” – June 26
….And then I learned that Gallo and her ilk were claiming that all emails objecting to her libel and that of other senior people at Tor were being generated by bots. Peter Grant requested that people email several people at Tor and their parent company Macmillan, copy to him, to prove that real people were emailing.
So I did. For the first time in my life, I emailed a company. And you know what I got back?
*crickets*
Neither Tor nor Macmillan so much as acknowledges emails on the subject. They could have — and one would have expected them to have — a bot of their own that acknowledged your email and thanked you for your input. It needn’t have any reference to what you actually wrote. But they didn’t even bother with that.
So, Peter Grant called for a boycott of Tor. It will be fairly difficult for me to boycott Tor since they haven’t been publishing much of anything that I care to read anyway. Gallo and her ilk are undoubtedly responsible for this. Still, I’m being careful these days. I spent $66.91 on ebooks last Saturday — pretty standard — but none of them came from Tor.
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“Fire Irene Gallo” – June 26
The continued refusal of Tor Books to hold Irene Gallo responsible for her actions demonstrates that labeling Tor’s customers “racist neo-Nazis” and Tor’s own books “bad-to-reprehensible” is observably acceptable to its management, no matter what feeble protests Tom Doherty may offer.
Lela E. Buis
“No such thing as bad publicity…” – June 25
I’ve read some posts to the effect that this is the most entertaining Hugo season ever. We now see how the bad press is playing out. Because of the brouhaha, many more people now know that there is a Hugo Award for science fiction and/or fantasy. WorldCon is busting at the seams, and supporting memberships are going like hotcakes. People are busy reading and reviewing the nominations. Do you suppose the Nebula’s could arrange for Vox Day to game their system next year? Nevermind, just kidding.
A few blogs back, I did suggest that Day was in marketing mode with this Rabid Puppies scheme. His name has been up there in the lights for weeks now. The interesting thing is, so has the Hugo Awards, WorldCon, Tor Books, Irene Gallo, Moshe Feder and Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden. I’d be willing to bet Tor comes out with a little spike in sales.
Bruce Baugh on Obsidian Wings
“On accusations of *-ism and prejudice” – June 26
[Promoted from a File 770 comment to a standalone blog post.]
….Other people believe that we never altogether escape our legacies, and that they include a bunch of ugly screwed-up stuff as well as good things. We can — and should — aim to do better, but perfection isn’t attainable, and we are likely to do small harms (and sometimes larger ones) all the time. Sometimes it’s through ignorance, sometimes it’s through laziness and unwillingness to change the habits that give hurt, usually it’s a fair dose of both. In this view, dishing out harm is a routine though unwelcome part of life, and it’s no great achievement — but also no great burden, really — to respond by acknowledging it, apologizing, seeing what you can do to repair things, and then working to not do that particular one again. As Huey Lewis put it once, “All I want from tomorrow / is to get it better than today.”
This view is more common among people who are “marked”: those who are hyphenated Americans, who will have to say something to avoid incorrect assumptions about the sex or gender of their loved ones, who can expect to be called a “lady X” instead of just “an X”, and so on. They have more experience of being on the receiving end of a lot of unintended but nonetheless genuinely hurtful junk, and of seeing other deny responsibility for the hurt they’ve given. They see too how even when dealing with their own friends, family, and peers, disparaging attitudes about their kind can slip in and color what they do. (This is what “internalized” bigotry means: believing crap about yourself and people like you, and treating yourself or others like you the way people with social advantages over you are prone to.)
In my view, the second approach is vastly more realistic. We do all screw up a bunch all the time. Nobody can go through life constantly apologizing…but we can go through life recognizing that we do things worth apologizing for all the time, and try to do better. We can be humble about our limitations….
Kary English in a comment on File 770 – June 26
[“Kary’s apology” included at her request.]
I also wish people like Brad, Larry and other SP notables would come out and say “Hey, this* isn’t what we intended or what we hoped would happen. We’re sorry the whole thing has become such a mess.” (*where “this” means locking up the ballot and shutting out other works)
I don’t consider myself a spokesperson for the SP, or even an SP notable, but I’ll say it. I never got involved in this with any idea that I’d even make the ballot, much less that VD would run his own campaign or that there would be a ballot sweep. If I’d known that, I wouldn’t have participated. To the extent that I’ve been part of that, even unknowingly, I apologize.
It seems I can’t say anything remotely in that vein without someone saying that if I truly thought that, I would withdraw. I’ve already given my reasons for not withdrawing, but I’ll mention again that a large part of it is not giving Vox Day the satisfaction.
All that stuff about nominating liberals just to watch them self-flagellate and see how fast they withdraw? I’m not his marionette, and I won’t dance to his tune. He set us up to be targets, just like he set up Irene Gallo. I’m not giving in to Vox Day.
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form 2015 Hugo nominee
Captain America fights Hydra and confronts the deadly Hydra agent the Winter Soldier, who turns out to be [spoiler]….
The level of violence was too high for me to fully enjoy the Neat Superhero Stuff, though.
Overall, not really my cup of tea.
Reading SFF
“2015 Hugo Awards Reading: The Parliament of Beasts and Birds – John C. Wright (Short Story)” – June 26
Concerning the story: I was not impressed. It seems to be a religious (christian) parable of some kind and, adding to the annoyance over the vocab, I have the distinct impression that JCW is showing off how smart he is. I bet there are a bunch of references that I do not get because of how dumb and uneducated I am and didn’t do my bible studies diligently enough. (Or ever 😉 ). So now everyone knows that JCW is able to actively use a lot of randgruppen** words, knows his christian mysticism and is so very educated.
As you can see, the story’s prose and style annoyed so much that I barely was able to follow the actual story. Can’t be much good then. I didn’t like it.
TPI’s Reading Diary
“My Hugo award votes 2015 part 3 – Novellas” – June 25
[Reviews all five nominees.]
“Pale Realms of Shade”, John C. Wright (The Book of Feasts & Seasons, Castalia House) The story starts as a sort of supernatural thriller. A detective has been murdered and his ghost has been waked up. His wife wishes that he should reveal his murderer and rule out the suicide in order to release the insurance compensation. (I wonder how the suicide is even suspected as apparently the victim was shot several times). He then meets temptations before finally he gets an atonement. The first few chapters offered some promise – the writing was slightly clumsy, but the premise as itself seemed interesting. Alas, the story went from below average to mediocre and eventually to ridiculously bad. The writing was clumsy, there were sentences like this: “Sly had come across the dead body of a man who had — let’s be frank with this now — I rode him pretty hard some times.”. What does that even mean? The plot went from allegorical to pounding heavy-handed religion with a sledgehammer. What we learn from this story: a freethinker is about same thing as a devil worshipper. One of the worst things I have read.
Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring, Happy Kittens
“Groundhogs in Battle Armor: Edge of Tomorrow” – June 26
Edge of Tomorrow, adapted from Hiroshi Sakurazaka’s novel All You Need Is Kill, may not stand a change in the Hugo race, because Interstellar was made the same year — and that’s arguably one of the best (if not the best) SFF movies of all time. Still, it’s an enjoyable science fiction film with good storytelling and interesting characters.
Laura “Tegan” Gjovaag on Bloggity-Blog-Blog-Blog
“Hugo Reading – Graphic Story” – June 26
[Reviews all five nominees.]
The top spot has to go to either Saga or Sex Criminals. I’m more impressed with what Saga managed to do in what is clearly a single volume of a long ongoing story, so I think I’ll probably give the top spot to Saga and the second to Sex Criminals. The clear third-place winner is Rat Queens, which is much more amusing than the top two, but just not quite as good. The Ms. Marvel volume is solidly in fourth place while Zombie Nation will take up the rearguard of the five nominees. If I wasn’t a charitable sort, I’d leave Ms. Marvel and Zombie Nation off the ballot entirely. But I’m inclined to include them.
"This is the worst thing I've ever read" — comment on one of the RP nominees. #HugoAwards #Fandom #archipelacon
— Jewish Space Laser K2FI Parody Account (@filkerdave) June 26, 2015
https://twitter.com/ProtestManager/status/614612193351479296
Christopher Chupik in a comment on “How Authors Get Paid Part 2” at Monster Hunter Nation
Sad Puppies Monthly? I’d submit to that. It could be more hated among the SJW crowd than Baen in no time.
https://twitter.com/APiusManNovel/status/614672171386937345
[Declan Finn is a man of great simplicity of mind.]
Kyra in a comment on File 770 – June 26
… Well. Now that I’ve managed to stop crying with joy about the Supreme Court decision for the moment, a brief word about short stories:
A is for Asimov, yes I’m his fan, especially for Bicentennial Man.
B is for Bixby, I read him and squealed; read It’s A Good Life (or end up in the field.)
Collier, genius that nobody knows, I treasure my copy of Evening Primrose.
Delany’s unique, with no mimics or clones; he saw Time As A Helix Of non-high-priced Stones.
Ellison, man of cantankerous bent, knew even a Harlequin has to Repent.
Foster just left, but we haven’t forgot her, and now that it’s Ended, I hope that He Caught Her.
G is for Gaiman, a winner because he scores with as few words as Nicholas Was …
Heinlein’s the standard by which some judge worth; my personal favorite? Green Hills Of Earth.
(I didn’t read any I’s, so I’ll just go with Ing, whose Devil You Don’t Know I guess was a thing?)
J’s for Dianna Wynne Jones, I’ll decide – just take any section out of her Tough Guide.
Keyes left us little, but each word we crave, we all lay our Flowers on Algernon’s grave.
LeGuin has so much that it’s hard to pick one, but I’ll go with Intracom just ’cause it’s fun.
M is for Merrill, who wrote like no other, her work is loved (and not Only by her Mother.)
N is for Niven, grandmaster for real, whose Woman of Kleenex met a Man of Steel.
O is for Orwell, a heck of a fella — and Animal Farm’s, technically, a novella.
Padgett, the union of Kuttner and Moore, who wrote The Proud Robot, which I just adore.
(Quaglia I’ve not read, but now Q’s represented; I’ve heard that his writing is good but demented.)
R is for Russ, and will not be exchanged; when she started writing, well, that’s When It Changed.
Sturgeon’s law states that most everything’s crap, but his Baby is Three neatly sidesteps that trap.
Tiptree, oh Tiptree, the greatest indeed; I ask, Houston, if you’ve skipped her, Do You Read?
U is for Utley, another departed, but Shattering came out as strong as he’d started.
Varley, most everyone knows, is top rank, you just can’t Overdraw from his Memory Bank.
Weinbaum was right there when all of this started and his Martian Odyssey’s still well-regarded.
(X is unknown, but don’t mock it or scoff, put here all the many I had to leave off.)
Yolen’s output is both varied and vast; The Devil’s Arithmetic showed us the past.
Zelazny is here as the final contender; how fitting for Camelot’s Last great Defender.
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Msb,
Thanks for the advice. We are all fen talking on a venerable fan blog, so I see some value in throwing in idiomatic fannish catchphrases like “all fandom was plunged into war” and idiosyncratic vocabulary along the way. We should try to have a little fun with this. However, I will try to be aware of your point as well.
@Meredith
If you can’t try it out beforehand but if you’re willing to gamble a bit of money getting one and since you have someone to help warp, then I think I’d recommend getting a 10″-15″ rigid heddle. They look a bit easier to handle than the larger ones(lighter and less bulky and less warping to do), and they’re still pretty versatile. I watched bunches of youtube videos before I bought mine, so that might give you a better idea if it would suit your needs.
I’m glad you can still sew, though! I’m not so great at it. Straight lines are hard! Otherwise, I’d probably be quilting in addition to all the other fiber crafts I dabble in. Still, I somehow manage to collect fabric almost as quickly as I do yarn.
“I think when there has been civil and constructive dialogue, it has gone pretty well.”
Nothing constructive about someone repeatedly posting distortions of what’s been said to him, and failing to listen to repeated complaints about those distortions.
“a fan who deep down wants what is best for the genre, just like we all do”
I think this time, the ‘we’ does not include ‘I’, Brian. Because your hundreds of comments add up to what would make the genre suck.
@Brian – “For evidence of such a thing prior to Larry Correia declaring war on arugula, I’m aware of Doctor Who from 2006 to 2012. I don’t know if less blatantly obvious slates…”
I read the link, and it just shows that there are a lot of people who like Dr. Who. It doesn’t say anything about organized voting or slates or secret cabals.
Brian, I have to ask, why do you do this? It has to have crossed your mind at some time that if you have to lie in order to prove your point, perhaps the point you are arguing isn’t correct.
Ann Somerville: I really thought I would get away with saying “we” love the genre. What a pity.
Maximillian, I didn’t say there is anything wrong it. I love Doctor Who. I said that it kind of looks like a bunch of people got together and said, let’s nominate for Hugos and nominate all our favorite episodes, because we love them. Which I think is a good fannish thing to do. And in my view, at least part of the motivation behind SP3 was that it was a good fannish thing to do. So I’m bringing up a comparison with Doctor Who for discussion. Not saying I have the final word or that my interpretation is the only correct one.
Fans will vote for things they like. The only prior organization needed for Doctor Who to win repeatedly is for Moffat or Davies to ensure there was one really stand-out episode in that year’s series. Even with the 2012 win they had to pull out the big guns and use Neil Gaiman as a not-secret weapon.
Unlike other TV shows* Doctor Who can pretty much have an episode that does anything it likes. That makes it a lot easier to have a single episode that is unlike anything else on offer.
[*except Adventure Time obviously]
I do remember “Blows Against the Empire” and “Don’t Crush That Dwarf” losing, and at the time I and most of my friends attributed this obvious injustice to the damn right-wing fascist Analog fans who (we thought) dominated the Hugos at the time.
@ Brian Z
But more likely what happened is that a bunch of DW fans(of which there are many, and worldwide) got their Hugo ballots and nominated the best episodes of the season without having to “get together”, because the best episodes are usually pretty self-evident* and Whovians didn’t actually need to form any voting blocs, informal or otherwise.
*Until this season, but that’s because the “best” of a god-awful season doesn’t necessarily mean the episode itself is good, just better than bad. And so, this particular Whovian is putting “Listen” below No Award.
Nicholas Whyte:
Argumentum ad ignorantiam? Really Nicholas?
Sorry Brian but the analogy makes no sense. The fans don’t need to get together. Take ‘Listen’ – as soon as the episode was finished it was obviously going to be a contender for a Hugo. I wouldn’t need to speak to any other people who like Doctor Who and say “gosh, which episode do you think we should all vote for?”. Same goes for ‘Blink’.
The SP3 slate shows no such indication of people voting en-masse for things they liked or had been praising independently.
JJ: “That was back in 1953. 62 years ago. Strangely, there were no more public calls for slate voting after the first year. Probably because everyone realized that it was a huge act of bad faith against the spirit of the Hugo Awards.”
Have you read all Worldcon publications since 1953?
Because until I read the 1953 progress reports this year I had never even heard of the first example. It begs the question to tell Brian anything about the other years unless you have done the research.
Right? I love Who, but that episode? Pure fanservice. I’m embarrassed for the people who like it. Even if you enjoy being pandered to so shamelessly, have a little self-respect and keep your guilty pleasures private.
Scoring the 8:35 entry:
That’s Not What I Meant:
I’m sorry that you feel I’ve wasted your time. It is admittedly buried in the middle of my response, but I did say I have sympathy with one of your arguments.
Sneaky Passive Voice:
Can we come away from this realizing that we found some common ground?
Scoring the 8:39 entry:
Wounded Innocence:
Sorry to take up your pixels. I felt Nicholas Whyte and Steven Schwartz made good points, which is why I replied to them.
Scoring the 8:52 entry:
That’s Not What I Meant:
Of course I understand that bloc voting for five things which swept the final ballot is what was considered unacceptable enough that there are demands to change the rules.
Words Mean What I Say They Mean:
That’s why I’m more (but not entirely) sympathetic to 4/6.
Bats Are Bugs:
Well, it was the subject of his long blog post of March 30, the previous day, which is why I thought it was related.
Scoring the 9:14 entry:
Irrelevant “facts”:
The original EW article… The earliest BoingBoing reference
Scoring the 9:33 entry:
Smarm:
Camestros, to quote Mike Glyer, “I think you might be on to something there.”
Scoring the 9:33 entry:
I’m Not A Puppy:
Politics and reading taught me about empathizing with people who hold different views than I do and trying to understand their perspective.
Scoring the 11:43 entry:
Concern Trolling:
I don’t know if less blatantly obvious slates or people organizing themselves to vote in blocs existed back in the old days
Both Sides:
though I suspect they probably did
Words Mean What I Say They Mean:
or more recently, such as the hypothetical Tor slate that was alleged to exist in some precincts of puppydom (I’m not alleging this, just reminding you that some fans thought so)
Do My Homework For Me:
If you could comment on my questions about voter strategy, I’d appreciate it.
Scoring the 11:51 entry:
More Concern Trolling
I believe everybody who cares about this kerfuffle at all must obviously be a fan who deep down wants what is best for the genre, just like we all do. That’s one reason I wanted to see more discussion of EPH (and 4/6) on File 770 – so everybody can talk about their concerns and hopefully find common ground.
Scoring the 11:55 entry:
More I’m Not A Puppy:
We are all fen talking on a venerable fan blog
Words Mean What I Say They Mean:
so I see some value in throwing in idiomatic fannish catchphrases like “all fandom was plunged into war” and idiosyncratic vocabulary along the way.
Speaking For Others Here:
We should try to have a little fun with this.
More Wounded Innocence:
However, I will try to be aware of your point as well.
Scoring the 12:13 entry:
Yet More Wounded Innocence:
I really thought I would get away with saying “we” love the genre. What a pity.
Scoring the 12:20 entry:
That’s Not What I Meant:
I didn’t say there is anything wrong it.
Both Sides:
I said that it kind of looks like a bunch of people got together and said, let’s nominate for Hugos and nominate all our favorite episodes, because we love them. Which I think is a good fannish thing to do. And in my view, at least part of the motivation behind SP3 was that it was a good fannish thing to do. So I’m bringing up a comparison with Doctor Who for discussion.
@Brian “…I said that it kind of looks like a bunch of people got together and said, let’s nominate for Hugos and nominate…”
Well, it really doesn’t look like that, though. It looks like there are a vast number of Who fans who all nominate or vote for their favorite episodes. You implied that they had been working together behind the scenes in a conspiracy, and implied that the link you provided supported this, but it did not.
You have shown absolutely no evidence for a conspiracy. Don’t duck behind ‘I didn’t say that conspiracy was bad’ (paraphrase mine). That presumes that you have already proved that one exists.
Camestros, I agree, but weren’t there a lot more than a single standout Doctor Who episode on those final ballots? Wouldn’t one episode making the ballot be a better characterization of the pattern for, say, Battlestar Galactica?
Nice work, JJ. I’m adding your new category
Irrelevant “facts”
to the “official” card.
@Camestros Felapton
I’ll actually agree with this, despite my statement that I’m putting it below No Award. It was exactly the kind of episode that most Whovians love. I thought it was a bit too tonally derivative of Moffat’s other best episodes, especially Blink, but I also know I’m in the minority on that. I, personally, would have swapped it out for the people-graffiti episode(can’t remember the name), if pushed, but most of this season was just sub-par for me and I feel like there must have been better SFF tv out in 2014 that didn’t make the ballot. Outlander? Legend of Korra? Person of Interest? Steven Universe(totally going on my ballot for next year, and Lion 3 would have been great for this year)?
Laertes:
Also Speaking For Others Here. 😉
…maybe? “Speaking For Others” is basically “I’m one of you” which is tough to distinguish from “I’m not a Puppy.” What do you think?
@ Brian Z
That’s just it. It’s just you. The rest of us expressed our concerns, then examined the evidence that was offered and, for the most part, that evidence allayed concerns and we quit flogging it.
This is your dead horse. You’re doing the “we” thing again when you say “everyone can talk about their concerns.” They’re perfectly capable of doing that all on their own, if they want to. And since they’re not, you should probably conclude that you’re not speaking for anyone else and should stop trying.
Also: I changed the name of the game from “Brian Z Bingo” to “Puppy Bingo.” It’s maybe a little nasty to name it after one person, and we’ll want to play when other trolls show up.
Laertes: …maybe? “Speaking For Others” is basically “I’m one of you” which is tough to distinguish from “I’m not a Puppy.” What do you think?
Nah, I think it is its own category; even if he was not a Puppy (ha), it still wouldn’t be okay for him to speak for others here.
Added
🙂 NEVER! I shall flaunt my pleasures! [cue flaunting]
“Now go away or I shall flaunt at you a second time!”
I haven’t seen Outlander and I suspect Korra has suffered from comparison with Avatar. I do think ostensibly kid’s shows are pushing boundaries – mind you Who also sort of fits in that category.
Next year? I’d nominate at least one episode of Daredevil but the better episodes are the least SF in style.
So has anyone proposed “Melancollie and the Infinite Sadpupies?”
Too obscure?
Anyway,
Dr. Who: I think the basic argument here is between top-down and bottom-up nominations. Brian believes that there was some cabal or single leader selecting a dr. Who episode, and getting the fans to rally behind it, as opposed to a bunch of fans liking and nominating a popular episode on their own. The thing is, fans do discuss episodes on various venues, and a consensus can quickly emerge, especially among an enthusiastic fanbase. There’s no need for someone to give orders.
For what it’s worth. I consider a number of other programs to be better than recent Dr. Who. A couple episodes of Korra 3rd season, for example. And for next year, there’s going to be very strong episodes of The Flash and Daredevil- hell, I’d consider Steven Universe to be putting out far more dramatic and well-written episodes.
@NelC:
Kill Six Billion Demons is massively cool, with some of the most incredible artwork I’ve seen outside of 1980s European comics. As for the title, I thought it had been revealed: Vg jnf gur anzr sbe gur cebgntbavfg Nyyvfba’f tbq-frys, nf erirnyrq va gur cebcurpl.
Really, this is a golden age of webcomics: aside from K6BD, there’s comics like Namesake, Blindsprings, Ava’s Demon, Single Female Protector, Miamaska…there’s plenty of worthy webcomics for consideration.
So: five short stories, chosen semi-randomly:
1. Harlan Ellison: Repent Harlequin Said Ticktockman
Because this was the first short story I heard read by the author. And Ellison’s narration made an already excellent story incredible.
2. Norman Spinrad: “It’s a Bird, it’s a Plane”
Because it was the first fanfic I read- and it was better than the actual Superman comics at the time.
3. Raymond F. Jones: “A Bowl of Biskies Makes a Growing Boy”
Aside from the dystopia, it was the first story I read that had an ending where the heroes completely lost. Teenage me had a lot of trouble comprehending that idea.
4. John Chu: “The Water That Falls on You from Nowhere”
Emotionally complex, and a perfect example of SFF: changing something, and then extrapolating from it.
5. Rachel Swirsky: “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love”
It made me cry, OK?
My bookshelf: I haven’t counted, but if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say in some order such as:
Diana Wynne Jones – I also went to the most trouble finding her stuff.
Terry Pratchett – I may actually have more of his stuff than I do of DWJ.
Andre Norton
Roger Zelazney
Jim Butcher…sadly, the only one alive on this list. And I’m thinking of selling his novels off.
Camestros, I just had a glance. A steady three episodes reached the final ballot each year from 2006 to 2014, with the exception of two in 2009 when whatever “episode number 3” was didn’t survive the triple whammy of Lost, BG and Dr. Horrible.
A pattern?
2006:
Doctor Who – “The Empty Child”/”The Doctor Dances” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by James Hawes; Written by Steven Moffat
“Jack-Jack Attack” (2005) [Disney/Pixar Animation] Written and directed by Brad Bird
Doctor Who – “Father’s Day” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by Joe Ahearne; Written by Paul Cornell
“Prix Victor Hugo Awards Ceremony (Opening Speech and Framing Sequences)” (2005) [Interaction Events] Written and performed by Paul McAuley and Kim Newman; Directed by Mike Moir & Debby Moir
“Lucas Back in Anger” (2005) [Reductio Ad Absurdum Productions] Directed by Phil Raines; Written by Phil Raines and Ian Sorensen
Battlestar Galactica – “Pegasus” (2005) [NBC Universal/British Sky Broadcasting] Directed by Michael Rymer; Written by Anne Cofell Saunders
Doctor Who – “Dalek” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by Joe Ahearne; Written by Robert Shearman
2007:
Doctor Who – “The Empty Child”/”The Doctor Dances” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by James Hawes; Written by Steven Moffat
“Jack-Jack Attack” (2005) [Disney/Pixar Animation] Written and directed by Brad Bird
Doctor Who – “Father’s Day” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by Joe Ahearne; Written by Paul Cornell
“Prix Victor Hugo Awards Ceremony (Opening Speech and Framing Sequences)” (2005) [Interaction Events] Written and performed by Paul McAuley and Kim Newman; Directed by Mike Moir & Debby Moir
“Lucas Back in Anger” (2005) [Reductio Ad Absurdum Productions] Directed by Phil Raines; Written by Phil Raines and Ian Sorensen
Battlestar Galactica – “Pegasus” (2005) [NBC Universal/British Sky Broadcasting] Directed by Michael Rymer; Written by Anne Cofell Saunders
Doctor Who – “Dalek” (2005) [BBC Wales/BBC1] Directed by Joe Ahearne; Written by Robert Shearman
2008:
Doctor Who “Blink” Written by Steven Moffat Directed by Hettie Macdonald (BBC)
Doctor Who “Human Nature’ / “Family of Blood” Written by Paul Cornell Directed by Charles Palmer (BBC)
Battlestar Galactica “Razor” Written by Michael Taylor Directed by Félix Enríquez Alcalá and Wayne Rose (Sci Fi Channel) (televised version, not DVD)
Torchwood “Captain Jack Harkness” Written by Catherine Tregenna Directed by Ashley Way (BBC Wales)
Star Trek New Voyages “World Enough and Time” Written by Michael Reaves & Marc Scott Zicree Directed by Marc Scott Zicree (Cawley Entertainment Co. and The Magic Time Co.)
2009:
Doctor Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog Joss Whedon, & Zack Whedon, & Jed Whedon & Maurissa Tancharoen , writers; Joss Whedon, director (Mutant Enemy)
“Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead” (Doctor Who) Steven Moffat, writer; Euros Lyn, director (BBC Wales)
“Turn Left” (Doctor Who) Russell T. Davies, writer; Graeme Harper, director (BBC Wales)
“Revelations” (Battlestar Galactica) Bradley Thompson & David Weddle, writers; Michael Rymer, director (NBC Universal)
“The Constant” (Lost) Carlton Cuse & Damon Lindelof, writers; Jack Bender, director (Bad Robot, ABC studios)
2010:
Doctor Who: “The Waters of Mars” Written by Russell T Davies & Phil Ford; Directed by Graeme Harper (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who: “The Next Doctor” Written by Russell T Davies; Directed by Andy Goddard (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who: “Planet of the Dead” Written by Russell T Davies & Gareth Roberts; Directed by James Strong (BBC Wales)
Dollhouse: “Epitaph 1? Story by Joss Whedon; Written by Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon; Directed by David Solomon (Mutant Enemy)
FlashForward: “No More Good Days” Written by Brannon Braga & David S. Goyer; Directed by David S. Goyer; based on the novel by Robert J. Sawyer (ABC)
2011:
Doctor Who: “The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang,” written by Steven Moffat; directed by Toby Haynes (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who: “Vincent and the Doctor,” written by Richard Curtis; directed by Jonny Campbell (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who: “A Christmas Carol,” written by Steven Moffat; directed by Toby Haynes (BBC Wales)
Fuck Me, Ray Bradbury, written by Rachel Bloom; directed by Paul Briganti
The Lost Thing, written by Shaun Tan; directed by Andrew Ruhemann and Shaun Tan (Passion Pictures)
2012:
Doctor Who, ”The Doctor’s Wife”, written by Neil Gaiman; directed by Richard Clark (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who, ”The Girl Who Waited”, written by Tom MacRae; directed by Nick Hurran (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who, ”A Good Man Goes to War”, written by Steven Moffat; directed by Peter Hoar (BBC Wales)
Community, ”Remedial Chaos Theory”, written by Dan Harmon and Chris McKenna; directed by Jeff Melman (NBC)
“The Drink Tank’s Hugo Acceptance Speech”, Christopher J Garcia and James Bacon (Renovation)
2013:
Game of Thrones, “Blackwater”, Written by George R.R. Martin, Directed by Neil Marshall. Created by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss (HBO)
Doctor Who, “The Angels Take Manhattan”, Written by Steven Moffat, Directed by Nick Hurran (BBC Wales)
Fringe, “Letters of Transit”, Written by J.J. Abrams, Alex Kurtzman, Roberto Orci, Akiva Goldsman, J.H.Wyman, Jeff Pinkner. Directed by Joe Chappelle (Fox)
Doctor Who, “Asylum of the Daleks”, Written by Steven Moffat; Directed by Nick Hurran (BBC Wales)
Doctor Who, “The Snowmen”, written by Steven Moffat; directed by Saul Metzstein (BBC Wales)
2014:
Game of Thrones: “The Rains of Castamere”, written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by David Nutter (HBO Entertainment in association with Bighead, Littlehead; Television 360; Startling Television and Generator Productions)
Doctor Who: “The Day of the Doctor”, written by Steven Moffat, directed by Nick Hurran (BBC Television)
Orphan Black: “Variations under Domestication” written by Will Pascoe, directed by John Fawcett (Temple Street Productions; Space/BBC America)
An Adventure in Space and Time, written by Mark Gatiss, directed by Terry McDonough (BBC Television)
The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot, written & directed by Peter Davison (BBC Television)
Doctor Who: “The Name of the Doctor”, written by Steven Moffat, directed by Saul Metzstein (BBC Televison)
Which supports it just being fans voting for stuff they liked. If it was a coordinated campaign they would either all vote for one episode or ensure there was only Who on the ballot. Three Who episodes (or related to Who) is a really bad voting tactic.
So either:
1. Who fans are appalling voting tacticians or
2. they didn’t collaborate
Now excuse me I haven’t finished flaunting…
Mike,
Argumentum ad ignorantiam?
More of an argumentum ex silentio, relying on your own excellent detective work, but also the surprised reaction from all quarters when you uncovered the 1953 document!
But the more important point is that there is no evidence of bloc-voting in 1953, even if someone on the committee thought that it might be a good idea, and it’s up to those who want to believe in a long history of bloc-voting to find evidence for it, not up to me to disprove their bad history.
Camestros, if your hypothesis 1 is true and there was “collaboration” of some form, why do you say that would make them appalling tacticians? If they had taken all five slots, shutting out even Lost and Joss Whedon specials and what have you, then they would have been appalling tacticians.
There is no evidence for anything more than “an awful lot of Hugo voters like Doctor Who”.
I challenge you to find me a post, any post, on a Doctor Who message board which tells fans which episodes to nominate for the Hugos. You won’t; because Doctor Who fans, like most other fans, don’t like being told what to do.
An additional data point about a presumed Doctor Who slate: Looking at the detailed nomination breakdown, there’s a large variation in number of nominations for different episodes of Doctor Who, both between the episodes who reached the final ballot and the ones that placed below the top five finalists.
This is what we can expect if the Who domincance is simply a result of Doctor Who having lots of fans, but those fans disagree a bit on which episodes where best. The numbers certainly doesn’t fit a theory of Who fans organizing to get exactly three episodes as finalists.
Lis, I am so very, very sorry for your loss.
Because three nominees would be less effective than one nominee even with an AV system.
Brian Z
Please stop being deliberately obtuse. It’s fairly obvious that the best way to collaborate and win a category is to either concentrate your large group’s voting power on one candidate or to lock out all the nomination slots.
To be fair to Brian, it isn’t quite as obvious with instant run-off voting. However the way to make use of the preferences would be to have also nominated non-Doctor Who things that were less likely to win but likely to attract voters who would put Who down as a lower preference.
Not that happened.
And why am I being fair to Brian anyway?
@Brian Z, three episodes out of five slots would be terrible tactics because it neither puts one outstanding episode on the ballot for Whovians to concentrate their votes on, nor takes up all five slots, guaranteeing Dr. Who a Hugo. It risks pissing off fans of other shows while giving them the chance to hit back.
Slightly alarmed footnote: My spell checker recognizes Whovians as a valid word.
Also I forgot to mention that the Whovians had already hacked everybody’s spell checker’s so why bother with a slate?
Brian Z is doing the same thing Brad Torgersen did: see a pattern & conclude that it must have been due to nefarious activity.
Please repeat after me:
“Correlation does not imply causation”.
“Sometimes a cigar is juts a cigar”
Do you have any actual substantiated evidence for bloc voting in recent years apart from the Puppy movements? If you do, please share, because so far all you have is vapor.
Re: Whovians
Is there any evidence for anything other than Who fandom being enthusiastic and well-represented at Worldcon? Where is the smoking gun?
@Lin McAllister
Circular needles are a bit easier, but its still very slow-going. The biggest problem (aside from the pain) is remembering to write down how many stitches I did because doing a whole row at once is a bit much, and if I don’t write it down the knitting very quickly goes haywire.
@Kimberly K
Well, I didn’t say I was any good at sewing. 😀 Its not instantly painful but I definitely wouldn’t call myself skilled in any way. I’m working on it. 🙂
I’ve been watching weaving videos but its a bit tricky to judge without getting my hands on one. Before smartphones were a thing I once ended up with a phone that was unusable because I couldn’t use the buttons – my hands are pretty finicky. Thanks for the tip on what to try out first, I’ve been researching but its always good to hear directly from someone.
Also the nefarious actions of Brian Z’s imagined Who conspiracy was to nominate episodes of an award winning SF show. The well documented nefarious actions of the Puppies was to nominate “Wisdoms from My Internet” – a collection of troll comments.
Meredith: Is there any evidence for anything other than Who fandom being enthusiastic and well-represented at Worldcon? Where is the smoking gun?
Not to mention that, by its nature, the Dramatic Presentation Short Form category is going to have less people submitting full or partial lists of nominees than the novel category, which means it takes fewer nominations for something to make the ballot.
@Lis Carey:
Oh my gods, I am so very sorry for your losses.
…
Is anyone else skeeved out that in all those long posts and arguments, Brian Z seems not to even have noticed Lis’ distress nor the many posts of condolences?
Peace, he offered condolences. Then went right on wanking
Nicholas Whyte,
Nicholas,
I don’t know how you got from “a pattern” to that I must think someone told Doctor Who fans what to do. Certainly posts on a message board is one possibility. But my purpose was not to find a sinister conspiracy. It was to find out whether fans have voted in blocs, as you challenged me to find. So, my question is, did a number of Doctor Who fans all vote for the same three episodes? (or four, or five?)
Johan P
OK, now this is getting interesting. For Loncon there are only a total of five Doctor Who episodes nominated, with 35 votes for Doctor Who: The Time of the Doctor, 37 for Doctor Who: The Night of the Doctor, 38 for Doctor Who: The Name of the Doctor, which made the top five, 47 for The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and 312 (41%) for Doctor Who: “The Day of the Doctor.”
When I get time I’ll go hunt down earlier years. You don’t have them handy do you?
My question is how these votes might turn out differently under 4/6 or EPH, and could voters understanding how it would change things lead to changes in voting strategy.
I forgot to add that of course “Day of the Doctor” was the 50th anniversary special.
Here are the nomination totals back to 2006 (Doctor Who started being produced again in 2005).
In 2013 (this was Renovation, not Loncon), there might be a slight case to be made for a voting bloc. However, if that genuinely occurred, the Doctor Who fans would have shot themselves in the foot by including Game of Thrones and Fringe in their bloc, rather than 5 Doctor Who episodes — and indeed, Game of Thrones ended up winning. So it’s pretty unlikely that the close totals were the result of a bloc vote (if there was a bloc, it would have been much smaller than the final total).
The rest of the years, the totals are so spread out, it’s clear that if there were any sort of Doctor Who bloc, it was so small that the additional popular vote separated the episodes out by a fair to large number of votes.
2014
312 DoctorWho: “The Day of the Doctor”
193 Game of Thrones: “The Rains of Castamere”
127 DoctorWho: An Adventure in Space and Time
47 The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot
38 Orphan Black: Variations Under Domestication
38 DoctorWho: The Name of the Doctor
2013
95 Game of Thrones, “Blackwater”
91 Doctor Who, “The Angels Take Manhattan”
93 Fringe, “Letters of Transit”
93 Doctor Who, “Asylum of the Daleks”
93 Doctor Who, “The Snowmen”
2012
162 “The Doctor’s Wife” (Doctor Who)
76 “The Girl Who Waited” (Doctor Who)
73 “Baelor“ (Game of Thrones) [Ineligible – Nominated in Long Form]
60 “The Pointy End“ (Game of Thrones) [Ineligible – Nominated in Long Form]
53 “Remedial Chaos Theory” (Community)
49 “Fire and Blood“ (Game of Thrones) [Ineligible – Nominated in Long Form]
38 “The Drink Tank’s Hugo Acceptance Speech”
36 “A Good Man Goes to War” (Doctor Who)
2011
120 Doctor Who: “Vincent and the Doctor”
85 The Lost Thing, written by Shaun Tan
55 Doctor Who: “A Christmas Carol”
53 Doctor Who: “The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang”
50 Fuck Me, Ray Bradbury, written by Rachel Bloom
2010
86 Doctor Who: ‘The Waters of Mars’
35 Dollhouse: ‘Epitaph 1’
26 Doctor Who: The Next Doctor
24 Doctor Who: ‘Planet of the Dead’
24 FlashForward: ‘No More Good Days/Pilot’
2009
134 Doctor Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog
91 Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead Doctor Who
56 Turn Left Doctor Who
36 Revelations Battlestar Galactica
35 The Constant Lost
2008
119 Doctor Who “Blink”
68 Doctor Who “Human Nature’ / “Family of Blood”
48 Star Trek New Voyages “World Enough and Time”
35 Battlestar Galactica “Razor”
24 Torchwood “Captain Jack Harkness”
2007
64 Doctor Who: “Girl in the Fireplace”
25 Battlestar Galactica: “Downloaded”
24 Doctor Who: “School Reunion”
23 Doctor Who: “Army of Ghosts’ / “Doomsday”¹
22 Stargate SG1: “Episode 200”
2006
72 Doctor Who “Dalek”
49 Doctor Who “Father’s Day”
38 Battlestar Galactica “Pegasus”
37 Doctor Who “The Empty Child” & “The Doctor Dances”
21 Prix Victor Hugo Awards Ceremony (Opening Speech and Framing Sequences)
21 Jack Jack Attack
21 Lucas Back in Anger
@Brian “But my purpose was not to find a sinister conspiracy. ”
Okay, I think we’ve reached one of those points where literally every person who read your posts thought that you meant something else, in this case that you were trying to imply that here had been Dr. Who slates or intentional bloc voting.
If you were instead trying to agree with us that ‘no, there are just a lot of Dr. Who fans voting’, you could have saved us all a lot of time and said that in the beginning.