Lou Antonelli poses with sign outside Hugo, Oklahoma.
This BOLO story is not about sentient tanks.
Those who listened to last week’s Superversive SF Hugo livestream already know, but the rest of the world has just learned that online discussion featured Lou Antonelli’s claim to have written a letter to the Police Department of Spokane, Washington, telling them to be on the lookout for someone who may incite violence — Sasquan guest of honor David Gerrold.
Lou J. Berger asked Antonelli if he really wrote the Spokane PD. Antonelli answered –
I said I thought Gerrold’s on-line comments were so intemperate they were an incitement to violence, which is what I believe. I wanted them to know in case there were any disruptions at the convention….
I just suggested they (the PD) be aware of the controversy and possibility of people getting, uhh, maybe too enthused.
I verified Berger’s report with Antonelli myself who agreed, “That’s the way I recalled it. If I said anything stronger than that, I don’t recall and I must have been drinking some beer at the time.”
Now Jim C. Hines has published a transcript of Lou’s quote:
I’m referring to your quote at 1:00:28 in the video linked below:
“I really didn’t know much about [Gerrold] before the Hugo nominations came out. Following his discourse and his level of discourse as a result, I personally wrote a letter addressed to the police chief in Spokane and said I thought the man was insane and a public danger and needs to be watched when the convention’s going on, and I mean it. I attached my business card. I said this guy’s inciting to violence. Somebody—a weak-minded might attack somebody because of his relentless strength of abuse. I think, honestly, I think he belongs in a secure psychiatric facility.”
Update: Lou Antonelli subsequently responded to Jim C. Hines’ Facebook post with an apology for his actions.
Thanks for your polite request for an explanation. I’ve thought about what to say, which is painful to admit.
It’s become public that on July 1st I wrote a letter to the chief of the Spokane Police Department expressing some concerns over potential security issues at the upcoming Sasquan.
I’m sorry for what I did. Without looking at the big picture I reacted in a manner that I thought I was being treated. It was stupid and wrong. My subsequent participation on a podcast was also a mistake because the environment further fueled my fear and I lashed out again.
I’m sorry I bothered the Spokane PD. They probably are ready to throw the butterfly net over ME when I enter the city. And I’m sorry and apologize to David Gerrold. He probably understands why I did what I did better than I do.
I need to ponder the hurt I have caused. To give me time to think, after Sasquan I am taking a half-year hiatus from attending any conventions and/or submitting any fiction.
I think I’ve become my own crazy uncle…
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@Jim –
Jim, by quoting this inflammatory rhetoric, you are fanning the flames!
Well, it’s good to see that flames have been quenched, and we can all sleep peacefully in our cabins with only the prospect of tomorrow’s hike around Patmos to worry us.
It’s fairly hot in Greece at the moment; climbing up to the Meteora monasteries and convents was certainly sufficient to remove any desire to engage anybody about anything other than the mutual support needed to get to the top, and, equally importantly, down again the slow way. The fast way would be fatal …
Dr. Mauser: Gerrold already has deleted intemperate posts from his timeline on this issue, like the one where he told Larry Corriea and Brad Torgersen that they “were going to have the doors of the industry slammed in their faces.” So, as I suggested, it wouldn’t be the first time.
1) Gerrold never said that. What he actually said was:
2) He did not delete that post. It’s still out there. You can read it yourself. Here’s the Google cache of it.
Stop lying and claiming that Gerrold has “deleted intemperate posts”. Or else provide screenshots of said posts, proving your claims.
Bruce Baugh: Dr. Mauser, I’ve no idea what you’ve done to your Facebook settings, but those posts are world-accessible. They’re marked as “Shared with: Public”.
Yes, they are. If you can’t see them, Dr. Mauser, it’s because Gerrold has blocked you from his Facebook wall. He doesn’t block people for no reason. So apparently you’ve said something which made him feel such a blocking is warranted — and to me, this makes any comments you make about Gerrold totally lacking in credibility.
Dr. Mauser on August 8, 2015 at 5:17 pm said:
……
where she was using her FB page to promote TOR books.
I do wish folks would know how to properly spell the name of that publishing company. It’s: Tor. Not TOR.
Nick. I get it. On the Internet, no one knows you’re a dog.
The thing is, that holds true if you have a real name. There are lots of puppies with real names making ridiculous, self-aggrandizing claims and appeals to authority that their arguments can’t cash (to use half a metaphor).
The “controversy” (for me, anyway) is the amount of penalty you appear to assign to pseudonymous posters’ statements*. You seem to have gone beyond “take it with a grain of salt”.
I have been an editor (academic stuff, mainly) and a writer (tech docs/SF aspirations). But because I won’t point you to the specific books I’ve worked on (assuming that info is even online, which I doubt), you think I cannot — may not — participate on those topics (and let my arguments stand or fall, same as yours)? That seems too limiting.
A real name is just data. In specific circumstances, maybe it lends some credibility to some claims. But so does a history of rational comments** from a “pseud”.
*discounting drive-by flouncers and Internet bullies.
**I’m not claiming this.
No, you can make any comment you like. There is just no reason to believe the comments that are based on claims of identity or experience.
And it is pretty easy in 2015 to confirm a claim with a name attached. Any college journalist can do it.
sez JJ on August 9, 2015 at 9:56 am:
That, or Mauser was dispensing truthy truthy bullshit, or even flat-out lying about Gerrold.
No, you can make any comment you like. There is just no reason to believe the comments that are based on claims of identity or experience.
So long as you recognize that, beyond bare facts, this also applies to you, Nick — real name and all — I agree!
PS: believe it or not, I am on a beach, so I will have to sign off for a while. Hope everyone’s day is as sunny as mine (allegedly) is. 😉
Then we don’t agree, since you can actually do things like check out and confirm where I am from (New York), whether I have military experience (I do not) etc. You, on the other hand, can make up any story you like and we have much less of an opportunity to confirm.
Sorry bloodlust, you don’t get to have all the advantages of pseudonymity and real-name identification without any of the disadvantages of either just because you want it that way.
When considering Mauser’s opinions about Gerrold’s alleged intemperance, it’s probably a good idea to remember his worldview is likely to be very similar to people who consider gay marriage and insurance-covered contraceptives to be religious persecution. I’ve been following Gerrold on FB since this nonsense blew up and he often expresses anger at right-wing shenanigans. To the far right, disagreement with their worldview is borderline violence and definitely threatening. And of course any abuse and threats they deal out are justified by their constant victimization at the hands of the SJeWs (got that clever acronym from one of VD’s totally not neo-fascist, utterly non-racist minions. Get the joke? Clever, eh?).
Which is to say, Mauser’s statements may be completely honest and at the same time utterly full of puppy poo.
Andy Porter’s been banging on about online pseudonyms and cowards for several years; it’s a hobby horse that I doubt anyone’s going to convince him to quit riding.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/#comment-118174
Thanks, Nightengale, it’s good to know when one’s tilting at windmills.
I don’t read a lot of blogs — I guess I’m wrong about the habits of posting story acceptances. The ones I have read have all posted when the story publishes.
Sorry about the mistake. And sorry for last night’s intemperate post, as well.
And yes, I do have good reasons for posting under a psuedonym.
I always get a good laugh when white men criticize others for using pseudonyms.
Because why would anyone who has the courage of their convictions need to use a pseudonym? Just because there are crazies on the Internet who think it is acceptable (even impressive) to doxx you, send you abuse or death threats, show up at your home or work and threaten you, your family, and/or your property physically, or try to get you fired — simply for having an opinion which is different from theirs?
It’s very easy to “have the courage” to use your own name online when you’ve never been threatened or stalked, and are not in a vulnerable target group.
Women/PoC are more likely to be threatened and stalked. But neither whiteness nor maleness immunize one from being threatened or stalked.
I’ve received a number of threats over the years. (A number came from writing and publishing this article this article, for example: http://inthesetimes.com/issue/26/23/news1.shtml) and had to alert BayCon in 2005 after an exchange on the old nightshadebooks.com message board led to someone (now an occasional commenter on VD’s blog) declaring that I had better stay out of his way at the con if I wanted to avoid trouble. Luckily, my friend was a GoH so they took the complaint seriously. There’s also a steady background of anonymous threat-comments on my blog, most of which I screen unless the IP seems to be local.
One reason I have a dog now and practice martial arts is because of these threats.
In my case, I use the nym “Cubist” because way back when, O best beloved, back in the Dawn of Time, when first I fired up my steam-powered Macintosh 512KE to log onto America Online, my real name—”Quentin”—had already been claimed by someone else. You must understand, O best beloved, that in those halcyon days of yore, AOL enforced a strict seven-character upper limit on its subscribers’ screen names, which is why I could not simply append my last name and use that. And it so happened that a number of variants on my real name were, likewise, unavailable by the time I got there. So I finally went with “Cubist”, a reference to my ability to solve Rubik’s Cube, and I’ve kept on being “Cubist” ever since.
I have also studied martial arts, Nick. I have a shotgun, and a large dog.
I’m still using a pseudonym.
I’m glad you feel safe. You do you.
Well delurking, here we go again: I have no reason to believe that you have a shotgun or a dog or have studied martial arts. (The last is especially ripe; there are entire websites dedicated to exposing people who falsely claim to have studied this or that martial art, or who have achieved a certain rank.)
I certainly have no reason to believe that you’re in the SF industry if you’ve never seen someone blog about an acceptance or a sale. It literally beggars belief: tables of contents for anthologies are released months early and widely propagated by contributors and by the publishers themselves. There are daily announcements of individual short story sales—I literally have seen two on my FB timeline this *morning.*
You get to hide your identity, absolutely. I get to not believe anything you say about your identity. And when you make an obvious blunder, there’s certainly no reason to take your self-claims seriously.
Delurking — most of the authors I follow mention when a story they’ve been working on sells, and when they expect it to be published. I wasn’t aware that this could be considered unusual behavior. As I’m retired, and on a fixed income, those announcements allow me to modify my budget so I can buy the book when it is published.
I guess I’m weird.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the editor of Lakeside Circus reports getting rape and death threats in her e-mail since her announcement. https://twitter.com/CarrieCuinn/status/630254247200862209
If Cuinn didn’t think Antonelli was someone it would be dangerous/stupid to be involved with in any way before, she certainly thinks so now. Any other publisher out there watching this is probably going to steer clear of him as well… all because of his so-called “fans”.
The worst part is that Antonelli doesn’t deserve this after the apology. He deserved to be given another chance. But his “fans” are going to make it nearly impossible for him to come back from this.
For the benefit of
@Dr. Mauser
David Gerrold has posted an update on his Facebook page:
Yes, Gerrold has noted a Facebook feature that allows one to see all the edited versions of a post.
If Antonelli had the brains God gave a goat, he’d be on his FB, Twitter, and any other social media telling his fans, his “fans” and his fellow Puppies to knock this shit with the rape/death threats off,period, end-of-discussion, don’t- give -me- any- “but they did thiiiis!” bullshit.
If Antonelli had the brains God gave a goat, he’d be on his FB, Twitter, and any other social media telling his fans, his “fans” and his fellow Puppies to knock this shit with the rape/death threats off,period, end-of-discussion, don’t- give -me- any- “but they did thiiiis!” bullshit.
It’s really his only option if he wants a professional writing career in the future. While he can’t stop people from saying what they want to say, he really ought to be out there telling them that if they care about his writing in the slightest, they should not be jeopardizing his writing career in this way. It’s the old “With friends like these, who needs enemies” thing.
And he should also urge his “fans” to follow his example and apologize for anything they’ve already sent. It’s amazing how little some of them learned from him having the grace and strength to humble himself and realize he made a mistake.
@Quinchan
If Antonelli had the brains God gave a goat, he’d be on his FB, Twitter, and any other social media telling his fans, his “fans” and his fellow Puppies to knock this shit with the rape/death threats off,period, end-of-discussion, don’t- give -me- any- “but they did thiiiis!” bullshit.
To be fair, Antonelli has always had an extreme view of what’s considered an acceptable response, but as he appears ready to reconsider his past behaviors maybe it’s not fair to pile on him just yet.
As I am not a fan of Antonelli, I would not do this, but an actual fan of his who wanted to let Cuinn know that she “made a mistake” would have pointed her to Antonelli’s apology, talked a little about the quality of his work and why they love it, and asked her kindly to give him another chance in the future. Any other response is counter-productive and basically would help destroy his writing career.
Rape and death threats to a publisher who has decided that a writer is too dangerous to publish only confirms that publisher’s fears and drives other publishers away as well. It’s like his fans are attempting to make sure he can never be published by a legitimate publisher ever again.
Honestly, some days I do not know how the world got to this point. This is…I don’t have strong enough words for what this is.
@JJ
Everyone posts from their own experience. Having never been under threat it’s easy for folks to not understand some of the dangers of posting a real name.
I’m not claiming that experience for myself (thanks be!) but I have seen instances of it. At one employer, for regulatory reasons, employees were required to wear ID with first and last name. Male customers used this bare bones info to track down female employee’s personal info. This would then be used for anything from creepy cold calls at home asking for a date to, at the extreme, outright stalking. It took a couple law enforcement involved incidents before the regulatory agency changed the policy to only require displaying a first name for non-managers.
It’s hard to believe in that kind of bad behavior though if you haven’t seen it.
The number of circular arguments going on on this thread certainly makes for amusing reading.
Brian must be on a mandated break, with Dr. Mauser filling in (Troll-r-Us must have a strong union).
I use my own name here and when I use what everyone here refers to as a “pseud”, I generally apply my real name to everything I type. I do not care whether anyone uses or doesn’t use their real name, as it’s not my decision or my life. You can use a userid and still be credible and I don’t automatically doubt your convictions. Your behavior is what I go by, not a word or words on a screen.
Contrary to what some might think, being a white male is not a “golden ticket” which insulates one or confers automatic advantage. In my place of birth, there are neighborhoods where being a white anything automatically puts a target on your back. I’ve been beaten up by girls, when I was in the seventh and eighth grade. Being a white male offered me little protection then and would afford me not much more now. Life is generally what happens to individuals, not classes of people.
In an attempted reply to Mr. Mamatas, if I read you correctly, your view of “pseuds” is that anyone can choose to you one and you in turn can choose to discount what they say to whatever degree you deem appropriate. You haven’t tried to say they shouldn’t use one or have no valid reason for doing so.
As regards Mr. Antonelli’s behavior, apology and so on, Mr. Gerrold’s public acceptance of said apology ends the matter so far as I’m concerned. Everyone else here will make their own determination as they see fit.
Assuming I ever manage some degree of success at this business, I sincerely hope I never acquire any “fans” of this stripe. Barring that, I hope someone calls my attention to them the moment they clear their throat so I can very publicly come down on them like a ton of bricks.
Robert Reynolds: No, I’m busy filking.
Ha ha! Making fun of my “pseud” name! Awesome riposte, Nick. I suppose the fact that I’m anonymous means I don’t get to return the favor (hmm, if only something rhymed with Nick). RNHIP, obviously.
Which one of these statements is automatically more credible coming from you vs. delurking just because you post under your real name (assuming I don’t have your bio memorized or feel a burning need to vet your credentials)?
1) I do martial arts.
2) I’ve been threatened due to Internet drama.
3) I own a dog.
4) Sorry, I didn’t know something.*
Good for you in your journalistic endeavors. Different format, different standards, different support structures, etc., but definitely praiseworthy. Truly.
However, I think you have taken healthy comment section skepticism and followed it over a cliff.
I think we are officially at the “talking past each other stage,” but I’ll read your last licks if you want to get them in.
*trick question; only delurking did that one.
“Appalling” is inadequate. Likewise “trolls” makes it sound less awful than it is. I do think there are people out there (possibly not even Rabid Puppies per-se) who just feed on the bad blood and want all concerned to feel as shitty as possible.
The worst part is that Antonelli doesn’t deserve this after the apology. He deserved to be given another chance.
This isn’t Antonelli’s first go around with this sort of thing. How many chances does one give him before deciding he’s not worth the headache? He has apologized to Gerrold, which is good. But the apology doesn’t change the fact that he is the sort of person who thought taking the initial action was a good idea. To forgive does not always mean to forget.
Also, for Nick, I hold a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. This is verifiable as I do not use a pseudonym.
@ Red Wombat
Me, neither. Jeez …
I took Tae Kwan Do for a month in ninth grade, but had to give it up because my mom couldn’t afford the lessons. You monsters. *sniff*
@Jim Henley:
Actual lol. Well, a snort.
I have a balck blet in typographical errors – this is verifiable regardless of my hanlde.
sez Robert Reynolds on August 9, 2015 at 1:28 pm:
Whether you realize it or not, you’re arguing that white male privilege does not exist. You are wrong. It is true that white male privilege does not confer absolute 100% immunity to hardship in absolutely 100% of all circumstances, but that doesn’t mean white male privilege is nonexistent. Loaded dice don’t give you the result you want 100% of the time, either; rather, loaded dice skew the probabilities away from a ‘flat’ distribution. The analogy to white male privilege is left as an exercise for the reader.
IIRC we went round with RR on white male privilege before and he was as resistant to the idea then.
Did anyone try Scalzi’s “playing the game of life on the lowest difficulty level” analogy on RR?
@Richard Brandt on August 9, 2015 at 12:01 pm said:
Argh. I hope Lou does what he can to derail this as soon as possible by calling out to his supposed ‘fans’ to stop this and quash it.
He is creating the situation he wanted to ‘warn’ about.
Not unlike the puppies ‘saving’ the Hugos this year I suppose.
Laura “Tegan” Gjovaag : Rape and death threats to a publisher who has decided that a writer is too dangerous to publish only confirms that publisher’s fears and drives other publishers away as well. It’s like his fans are attempting to make sure he can never be published by a legitimate publisher ever again.
Yeah, what Laura said.
Lou shouldn’t be worried about publishers withdrawing from deals citing his comments now. He should be worried about publishers who simply send back stock rejection letters or never bother to return his calls rather than deal with his and his fans’ drama.
Is it too late to get in on the Dog and Martial Art Show? I’ve got both!
‘Course, the dog is an ancient beagle and my martial art was iaido, but if a crazed internet stalker shows up, I can do a helluva kata while the dog pees on the floor.
I could confirm the existence of the beagle, but the iaido–that was in another county, and besides the wench is dea–badly out of shape.
This whole “Sad Puppies/Puppy Kickers-whatever” is getting really stupid now. It just goes to show how deeply divided we are on social/political issues. There’s been wrong done and said on both sides, no one’s innocent, but, hopefully, everyone’ll wake up soon and see how needless this crap is.
@RedWombat
Never underestimate the power of slippery floor! You and the beagle need only retreat to tile or hardwood and let nature take its course. Think of it as canine urinary aikido… 😛
I have a Welsh corgi named Fenway, and I am a Master of the Marital Arts. Or at least I used to be. Now that the kids are teenagers, they take out the trash and empty the dishwasher.
I own two dogs. I also own a shirt that reads, “I OWN TWO DOGS.” I am not making this up. But one of the two dogs I own is not one of the two dogs I owned when I got the shirt.
QED!
sez Joseph Rubas on August 9, 2015 at 2:54 pm:
Okay, I’m calling bullshit on you, Rubas.
First: There are no “Puppy Kickers”. There’s the Puppies, and there’s the entire rest of SF fandom, a motley, disorganized lot.
Second: So there’s “wrong done and said on both sides”, is there? I note the isotopically pure absence of specifics in your assertion. Care to pony up a concrete example of “wrong” which you conceive to have been done by the non-Puppy majority of fen?
Third: “everyone’ll wake up soon and see how needless this crap is”? Dude. The non-Puppy majority of fen have always recognized “how needless this crap is”. It’s the Pups who, in your terminology, need to “wake up… and see how needless this crap is”. Alas, the Pups show no sign of waking up.
Fourth: If it weren’t for false equivalence, you wouldn’t have any equivalence at all, would you?