aka “The Brand and Bark Concerto”
In today’s roundup are Larry Correia, Cedar Sanderson, solarbird, Jim C. Hines, Stefan Raets, Patri Friedman, Allan Thomas, Steven Saus, Amanda S. Green, Sarah A. Hoyt, L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright, Mike Flynn, Tim Atkinson, Lis Carey, Melina D, and Joe Sherry. (Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editors of the day JJ and RedWombat, and Anna Nimmhaus.)
Larry Correia on Monster Hunter Nation
“Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts” – June 18
I’m seeing this narrative pop up that Sad Puppies is calling for a boycott of Tor, but that is simply not true. Speaking as the guy who started the Sad Puppies campaign, I’m not calling for a boycott of anything. I’m not asking anyone to do anything. As far as I’m concerned this mess is between Tor and its customers. I’ve said very little about it so far, but I’ve been clear about that much.
The Sad Puppies Campaign is NOT calling for any boycotts.
[Continues with a discussion of recent history, and outlines Peter Grant’s background.]
After being a soldier, Peter hung up his guns and became a man of God. SJWs are saying that he’s a homophobe because he agreed with Sad Puppies, while in real life he volunteered at a colony for homosexuals who had been forsaken by African society, dying of AIDS. When I first met him, Peter was a prison chaplain, trying to help the fallen and broken, and victims of things you can’t even imagine. Basically, he’s an honorable man who puts his money where his mouth is, and now he’s offended.
Peter asked for a retraction from the Tor editor who flippantly dismissed thousands of fans as unrepentant racist neo-nazis. I don’t believe he’s calling for anything beyond that.
Again, this is between Tor and its readers who feel insulted, not the Sad Puppies campaign or the people who ran it. Yes, those Venn diagrams overlap, but sorry, you can’t blame this one on me. Many normal fans agreed with what Sad Puppies was trying to do, and shockingly enough, they eventually got sick and tired of employees of one of their favorite publishing houses calling them names. I’m not calling for anything, though I can certainly understand why some people are.
If any individual who felt insulted is satisfied with Tom Doherty’s statement saying that his employees don’t speak for his company, good for you. If any individual is unsatisfied and demands further action, that’s also up to you. I’m not going to tell anybody what to think.
For the other side who are saying that Gallo is the real victim here, and she was only speaking truth to power… Yeah, you guys run with that. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see she her comments were nonsense. The only thing she is a victim of is arrogance.
To the SJWs saying Tom Doherty is a hateful misogynist because he isn’t letting his employees libel people on the clock anymore? Double down. There might be some people left out there who haven’t realized I was right about you yet.
To the Tor authors I’m seeing post about this, the Sad Puppies campaign is not calling for a boycott. If you are upset why people are angry take it up with your art director about why she’s insulting your customers.
To the Sad Puppies supporters, do what you think is right. All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements. Stick with the facts. We’ve got the moral high ground, and the great moderate middle of this debate has seen we’ve been telling the truth all along.
Cedar Sanderson in a comment on Monster Hunter Nation – June 17
I have blogged extensively on this, in part because Peter Grant, who I am honored to call a friend, asked me to weigh in as a businesswoman. I have not been calling for a boycott or even a dismissal of Irene Gallo. It is simply a horrible example of unprofessional behavior, and an opportunity for Tor to show that they do respect their customers and vendors even though there is a lot of evidence that certain personnel do not.
solarbird on crime and the forces of evil
“this is just pathetic: puppy boycott, ahoy” – June 18
Anyway, the demands are ludicrous, but to summarise:
- Tor must publicly apologize for writings by Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Moshe Feder, Irene Gallo, and John Scalzi that “demonize, denigrate, slander and lie about the ‘Puppies’ campaigns”
- Tor must “publicly reprimand those individuals for stepping over the line”
- Tor must “publicly indicate that it is putting in place policies to prevent any recurrence of such issues.”
See, this is exactly what you get when you hang one of your own out to dry for making personal comments on their own Facebook page like Tor did. You get escalation. So I’m honestly having a hard time feeling sorry for Tor Books here; it was as predictable a piece of politics as one can imagine. And I’m not just saying that in retrospect; I said so at the time.
Now mind you, this “boycott” is pretty must sad-trumpet amateur hour for several reasons, not the least is probable inability to make visible economic impact. As Vox himself admitted, he hasn’t bought anything from Tor in years, and I doubt all that many of the others who are going to sign on to this thing have either. A few, sure, absolutely – with the hilarious side-effect that means the writers they might be able to hurt are the ones on their side.
I think Mike Glyer has done an admirable job keeping up on the Hugo discussion, but I wonder if it's time to stop those round-ups.
— Jim C. Hines (@jimchines) June 18, 2015
https://twitter.com/sraets/status/611547350243217408
Patri Friedman
[Seasteader, son of David, grandson of Milton…]
“Being intolerant of people you don’t like because they’re intolerant” – June 18
So, there is some kerfluffle about Tor books, because one of their employees (Irene Gallo) said on her personal Facebook page that the sad puppies (conservatives fighting a culture war to make SF less SJW-influenced) were racist, homophobic, neo-nazis. Sad puppy supporters like SF author Peter Grant, who has literally exchanged gunfire with neo-nazis in South Africa were understandably outraged at this characterization. And (not so understandably, to me) calling for firing/resignation/public abasement of these employees. Which is where I have a problem. This sounds a lot like:
“Your business must publicly apologize for the hateful speech of your employee which has offended a small minority of listeners by publicly abasing yourselves, and promising not to do it again. This will show the world that hate cannot be tolerated; the strong cannot abuse the weak; and (incidentally) that our tribe is powerful and can grind your tribe under our boot if you dare offend us.”
Which is what anti-SJWers complain about the left doing. Sorry guys, but it’s bad when SJWs do it; and it’s bad when anti-SJWs do it, because, well, it’s bad. As I’ve previously posted, ideological diversity is important, and ideological intolerance is the enemy of ideological diversity and the progress that comes from having many opinions and beliefs working in parallel. Making people suffer professionally for their personal political opinions is stellar example of harmful ideological intolerance.
Allan Thomas on LewRockwell.com
“The High Church of Science Fiction and Tor” – June 19
I had heard, from several reliable sources, that it was next to impossible for a libertarian science fiction writer to break into the field. I absolutely refused to pretend to be non-libertarian just to get published, and so I followed Larry Correia’s Sad Puppies campaign with interest. Brad Torgerson and Vox Day were able to gather a core following of 360 voters and completely sweep the Hugo award nominations. Yes, it only took 360 science fiction fans to completely overwhelm the existing system.
The fallout from that event still has not settled, and the awards won’t even be announced until August. But the reaction makes it obvious that there is a sizable percentage of science fiction fandom that is “not satisfied with the products and services being offered.” Entrepreneurs have a name for this situation–”market opportunity.”
However, to date, it appears that only Castallia House is focused on providing science fiction for this segment of the market; they have even signed a new deal with legendary writer Jerry Pournelle.
For their part, Tor Books seems content to continue to ignore this dissatisfied segment of science fiction fandom. And, in fact, Tor employees are content to insult them.
Steven Saus on ideatrash
“The Topical Changes In Science Fiction And Fantasy Has Nothing To Do WIth Sad Or Rabid Puppies” – June 18
The change in science fiction and fantasy over the last sixty years little to do with politics, and a lot more to do (ironically) with technology.
The current state of sf (science fiction) and f (fantasy) has a small vocal portion of its readership bemoaning the loss of “traditional” science fiction and fantasy. An oft-repeated quote is paraphrased as “Back in the day, when you bought a book with an astronaut on the cover, you knew what you were getting.”
The historical accuracy of this impression, like much nostalgia, is debatable. But more importantly, it is irrelevant.
To understand why, we must look to the Ferris Wheel….
Amanda S. Green on Nocturnal Lives
“Time to take a deep breath, stop and think” – June 18
… I’m going to part with one last comment. When I was growing up, I loved SF/F because there was a place for everyone, at least that is the way it seemed. Looking at it now, it feels like a house divided where those on the inside are doing their best to bar the door to everyone else, including a large faction of the reading public. That has got to stop and now.
L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright interviews Mike Flynn on Superversive SF
”Interview with Hugo Nominated Author: Mike Flynn!” – June 18
7) How did you come up with the idea for your current nominated story?
A supporting character in Up Jim River had a backstory in which he had journeyed across the face of his home world before making contact with an interstellar trade ship. That gave me the notion of telling his story. The idea is that as he travels east he encounters progressively more technologically advanced cultures. “In the Stone House” was the second of these stories and was originally was the first half of a longer story the second half of which (“Against the Green”) appeared in the succeeding issue of ANALOG.
Sarah A. Hoyt on According To Hoyt
“Of Pigs, Fights and Life” – June 18
When I said that I couldn’t mention the letters “H-u-g- and o” in the same paragraph without getting linked, I was right. Or I might not mention the Hugos at all, or only in passing on the last paragraph. But if the post supports the narrative the puppy-kickers are building, sure as shooting it will get linked. Like my post about a new Golden Age, which got linked because in their blinkered little minds we’re calling for pulp. (Sometimes one wonders about the minds that build this narrative. You are aware someone who grew up on pulp would be 100, right? You are aware that Heinlein not only wasn’t pulp, but was in many ways the anti-pulp. I mean, I read Burroughs, but mostly Tarzan, and it wasn’t my favorite. I read him because grandad had him, so I read him by 5 or 6. Books were expensive and we had those. But his technique was outdated by then.)
But it supported the narrative, so it got linked. The same way that its subsequent “Oh, for the love of frack, no one wants pulp” follow up wasn’t. The same way my friend Sanford’s post over at Otherwhere Gazette, exploding their nonsense wasn’t. The same way my post pointing out that I felt they were linking me to homophobia and how stupid this was wasn’t.
Oh, it’s very carefully done. There is an image being built, and he links to those posts that support it. Then when caught it’s not his fault and he can’t control his commenters, and he can’t see everything.
And, as I said, I have been conversant with these techniques since dealing with the cobbler’s son next door, while growing up. (Weirdly he didn’t become a communist politician, and has instead racked up several jail terms.)
So Mike Glyer is smarter than the average bear, and much better at Alinsky techniques, and I’m an idiot to fall for them and come out swinging, which meant I had a spanking coming.
Tim Atkinson on Magpie Moth
“Kevin J Anderson’s The Dark Between The Stars: control, not mastery” – June 18
I also hadn’t realised – according to Wikipedia – that KJA has written more than 50 best-sellers. It’s easy to be sniffy about writers who tend to work in already established universes, but you don’t keep getting those gigs unless you are good at what you do.
So, before I talk you through The Dark Between The Stars, it’s hats off to an author doing very well for himself at the commercial end of the market.
Dark is more of what Anderson does – space opera on an epic scale – only in a sandbox of his own devising to play in. And what an elaborate, detailed, techno-baroque sandbox it is too, taking in psychic empires, gas giant mining, insectoid robot, gestalt forests, plague collectors and colours from out of spaaaaaaaaaace.
This world-bling – to borrow a phrase from China Mieville – is one of two main admirable qualities the novel has, the other being the plotting. Anderson juggles a huge cast and multiple plot-lines without breaking a sweat, like the hugely experienced pro he is.
But I’m essentially praising Dark as a feat of literary engineering rather than as a novel. These are virtues of control rather than mastery. The array of characters I found unengaging and rather one-dimensional, the action curiously flat. And the sheer size of the book and number of stories spreads Anderson too thinly, so that no single thread truly breathes in its own right.
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“The Deaths of Tao (The Lives of Tao #2), by Wesley Chu” – June 18
Wesley Chu is a nominee for the 2015 John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer.
…All in all, I nearly bounced off this book.
And then, thirty or forty pages in, the characters started to matter to me, and their problems became interesting, and a bit further in, I stopped caring that this is a story type I normally find really dumb and annoying. What can you do? I kept reading. Best New Writer? That seems a fair conclusion, even with the slates this year having possibly kept other good candidates off the ballot….
Melina D on Subversive Reader
“Hugos 2015 Reading: Novellas” – June 18
[Reviews all five nominated novellas.]
So today I got the Hugo Packet and decided I would start to read some of the fiction. I haven’t completely decided how I’m going to arrange my votes around the slate, but I was curious about why certain fiction was chosen to be part of the Sad/Rabid Puppy slate. I gave myself permission to give up on short fiction after at least 6 pages if I wanted to. But when I began reading the novellas, I started to get angry. Really bloody angry. So, of course, I decided to blog about them.
The novella category is one of those which was completely stacked by the puppies. I was expecting fiction which wasn’t my usual cup of tea, but still well written examples of fiction I might not usually choose to read. But, honestly, the writing was shit. I’m going to go into more detail on each of the novellas, but 4 out of the 5 of them shouldn’t have been published with such low quality of writing. The 5th was competent – which was a relief – but nowhere near award nomination quality….
Joe Sherry on Adventures In Reading
“Thoughts on the Hugo Award Nominees: Novelette” – June 18
The best of the bunch here is Rajnar Vajra’s “The Triple Sun: A Golden Age Tale”, though I’m really not sure what the “Golden Age” part of it is all about. Is it a suggestion that the story harkens back to the golden age of science fiction or is it part of a larger Golden Age milieu that Vajra is working in. If the second, I can’t find any other Golden Age tales. Regardless, “The Triple Sun” is a story with some space exploration, adventure, sass, and all in all good fun.
My Vote
1. The Triple Sun: A Golden Age Tale
2. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Earth to Alluvium
3. Championship B’Tok
4. The Day the World Turned Upside Down
5. No Award
6. The Journeyman: In the Stone House
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@rrede:
QFT. If nobody actually tells us (privileged white dudes), “Not cool.” we sure as shit have no reason to think we should stop. And the people we hurt keep hurting.
I had no plan to post tonight, but I have to thank Bruce Baugh. I’d say more, but I ran out of spoons hours ago and typing this is probably more than I should do. The bill will come due tomorrow. My thanks again, good sir.
@Peace, @Al;
“What’s your name, young man?”
“Ficus Pandurotta, sir.”
“Ah, that’s OK, you’ll grow out of it.”
Ann Somerville:nightengale: “I liked Midnight Riot but I hope in later books that the hero stops being such a Nice Guy(tm) to his female colleague in the hopes that she’ll sleep with him.”
Um, how many of the books have you read? Because that’s really not gonna happen (for reasons). I didn’t get so much of a Nice Guy vibe as much as a “damn it she’s my colleague” vibe, but I understand why you did.
I can’t help but be skeptical of every Nice Guy warning these days because it gets thrown around so much to the point of scaring writers/readers off of even trying to do unrequited love at all or certain kinds of flawed characters. But on the flipside when actual Nice Guys show up it is infuriating.
*wishes Nice Guys had a less confusing and more descriptive name too*
idontknow: I can understand that–change is never fun even when it’s change we want to experience. And when it’s not change we wanted, or change that we can see immediate benefit from, then it’s very bleak.
But if you realize that the nice safe world you had was built on exclusion and marginalization–and despite believing your group and your friends were inclusive and supported each other, I think the sf world was exclusive like all other white and male dominated spaces in the US–and if you realize that change always involves destruction as well as rebirth, then maybe it won’t seem like the end of all things.
And just because women are present in a male-dominated space, because ethnic minorities are present in a culture dominated by one numerical minority group, because GLBT* people are present in safe spaces, even enjoying and participating in group activities, their presence doesn’t mean that the space is not X-ist! We are always already here despite the perception of some who think we’re just now invading (we’ve been just now invading in the US since the freaking 1920s).
Women were always present in SFF fandom–the problem is that their presence is often erased/marginalized/ignored/downplayed. The same is true of other marginalized groups. What has changed recently is a greater presence, more possibility of communication and coalition because of the internet (along with greater possibility of hate and harassment, sigh). I see it as improving, and try to cheer myself up with the hope that the current imbroglio over the Hugos is like the earlier Racefails and some related events, are in response to changes that can grow and be maintained over time:
As Gandhi said in regard to progressive movements, First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Michael Eochaidh@ rrede:
Hmmm. I wound up buying Nicola Griffith’s Hild thanks to certain File 770 commenters…
It keeps happening!
Geez, I go away for a lunch meeting with the co-director of the Safe Spaces Ally project on campus and meet with a grad student on her project, and do a few errands, and walk dogs, and ZAP. I’m sooo far behind.
Mike, adding to what others have said. I think that what you are doing here is important: sf fans document sf fannish history.
Even the bad parts. Now I go walk dogs again!
Coda to my earlier post. Here’s why I didn’t get further on turning Jamie into an RPGer: Ferguson.
I was in Chicago for four months last year. I started GMing a small campaign for local friends (retirement-community superheroes using Fate Accelerated Edition). Then Ferguson happened, and Jamie felt a powerful duty to give her weekends to protests and protest-support a 12-hour bus ride away. (I do have an excuse for not also going. I was in Chicago for cancer treatment.) And there went our gaming schedule.
If I need to underline the point, it’s that genuine oppression impinges on fans from less-privileged groups in a way that some of us never have to deal with, at a whole other level than feeling a crowding in one’s nerdspace.
XS, my feeling about Peter is that he’s just a normal, bright young man who likes pretty women and knows he’s good looking, so he’d try it on with Lesley if it weren’t completely inappropriate. On the other hand, he has a healthy respect for boundaries and consent and isn’t nice to women just because he wants to get into their knickers, but because it’s how he was raised and it’s how he’s been trained for the job.
As I said before, I had some real issues with how the author treated the female characters, but Peter himself doesn’t bother me. Whether that’s because I expect no better from men, or I’m inured because of fifty three years of being a woman in this world, or because there really isn’t a problem, I can’t tell. I’ve read and enjoyed so much worse – I mean, I’m watching Archer and enjoying it 🙂
Robert, I’m really happy to have passed along a useful term. And best wishes for mending.
Peace Is My Middle Name says:
Baker’s Doctor is even better in the Big Finish audio dramas.
True.
Ok, Morpheus is ignoring me yet again, though I must admit that acquiring lots of new books doesn’t bode well on the insomnia front.
However, on the theme of dreadful and awe inspiring failures by writers to get the geography and/or culture right, I thought I should act in the spirit of open hearted generosity to people who would like to get it right.
The Lord Mayor of the City of London has the right, dating from the 12th century, to drive a herd of sheep across London Bridge. It’s been going on and off for 800 years, and I anticipate it continuing for many centuries. So, should you get stuck and need plot possibilities, remember those sheep!
Your readers will thank you for it, even if you do use the sheep as a means of smuggling in advanced weapons grade nanotechnology, leading to the Lord Mayor and his trusted colleagues dying in agony in another page or two, followed shortly thereafter by the death of 90% of the citizens of the City of London, though this time please get the location of Barts right, and St Paul’s, since everybody will either be in hospital dying, or in St Paul’s praying.
Which a good place to leave them; I’ll try sleeping again…
mcjulie, I plan to pick you up after Bikram yoga.
This isn’t just me trying to hijack a thread. It is my contention that Mike’s efforts on file770.com are so rewarding that this is the first place you’ll see the message.
@Ann
Yeah, that character doesn’t sound so bad with that context.
And Archer is such an odd case. For all the lines it crosses multiple times, the lead character has not only actually grown up a bit* but he’s actually less skeevy than Cyril.
That and it really does have a great ensemble cast.
*Emphasis on bit
Iain Coleman
I prefer the concern trolling when Brian Z does it, he at least comes up with interesting filks and has arch-enemies.
@ Ann Sommerville
The story’s worth it.
Idk, I would totally love to see your Bark Knight idea happen. I had a vision of selina’s cats hissing at krypto at the funeral.
As for Tor, I didn’t change my buying habits today (yet), but am reading A.M. Dellamonica (Indigo Springs), with Randy Henderson’s Finn Fancy Necromancy in cue. Tina Conolly after that. Also, I bought Redsirts a while ago, and lost the copy. So I will buy it again.
Gabriel, “Trader” is worth it? I’d hope so. But I wasn’t in a good place for something that wasn’t cheerful when I started reading, so I put it aside. I have to do that a lot.
XS, no one is skeevier than Cyril. Except maybe Krieger 😉
@ Ann
Yeah, Trader isn’t cheerful. Grab one of the Newford story books for happier fare.
I failed to sufficiently sanitize my long reply to many folks but meanwhile here some shorter points:
Jon @ 3:39pm:
That explains why John C. Wright is no longer a Puppy.
Matt Y,
There may be an opening, and I’m accepting applications!
“Trader isn’t cheerful.”
now you tell me!
“Grab one of the Newford story books for happier fare”
I thought it was one of the Newford books. Oh well.
Ann Somerville:XS, no one is skeevier than Cyril. Except maybe Krieger ????
“I trust he’s hard at work[disposing a body]?”
“He might literally be.”
Brian Z –
I’m not sure I have the appropriate costume or experience for it and besides in any lyrical face off you’d hand me my ass. I shall leave it to someone more passionate to apply.
@ Ann
Oh gosh, yes. Trader takes place in Newford, you are right. Dreams Underfoot (which is all short stories that happen in Newford) was what I was thinking, also The Ivory and the Horn, Moonlight and Vines, and Tapping the Dream Tree,, all short stories.
@IDK- in that case, apologies, and let me withdraw that phrase.
The rest if my point regarding your response still stands.
@XS: I’m afraid revisiting old threads would bankrupt me.
Greg and Nick,
I still think it is a four-year trend, albeit with roots in a certain venerable 2005 self-pimpage.
Bruce Baugh on June 19, 2015 at 5:51 pm said:
Would you mind expanding on this? The internet forum where I’m primarily active is a (lovely) nest of progressivism. On those (increasingly rare) occasions where someone says something creepy and offensive, they tend to get dogpiled. There have been some fairly nuanced discussions about whether the dogpile is the best way to achieve various goals, but I believe the loose consensus is currently that while the dogpile isn’t great for getting people to change their minds, it is great for establishing social norms and, as we’ve seen over three years or so, dramatically reducing the amount of racist, sexist, homophobic etc bullshit that gets said. But one thing missing from our discussion is concrete info. That is, we know enough sociology collectively to know that reasonable discussion is not, in the main, what causes people to change their minds, but beyond that? Nah. So if you could elaborate, I would very much appreciate it.
Touched by continued kind words from Doctor Science (wow!) and others, I did the natural thing, and revised my Roosh V filk and posted it on my internet-web “blog”. It’s now properly called “The Tracks of my Drawers“. I am so proud and/or sorry.
Oh right, Thorsday: picked up Indigo Springs, My Real Children, and Halo: Glasslands (I really enjoyed Traviss’s Wess’har and Republic Commando books, and I’m not proud).
In non-Thor news, I also pre-ordered Cherie Priest’s second Elizabeth Borden plus Cthulhu book, which I didn’t realize was going to exist until amazon recommended it.
Apologies for the wall-o-text but I’m trying to catch up…
Regarding Jim Hines’ tweet: I think that Mike is doing important work with his roundups. By their own words shall we know them be they Puppies or non-Puppies, and having different points of view collated at one site is a huge time-saver. Truth is important to me, and if people didn’t post boneheaded articles with fact-free claims, it wouldn’t concern me much. Also, Mike has been excerpting honestly (compare that to how some of the Irene Gallo remarks have been misrepresented) and been scrupulous about linking to the original text too and I really appreciate that.
But given the number of claims that have been debunked, it’s important to scrutinize any new claims, and File770 does essential work bringing those to the attention of fandom.
The end of the roundups a.k.a. So Long and Thanks for All the Fuss: I expect it’ll end after the Hugos are awarded and the post-Hugo analysis winds down. Since April, a community of sorts has accreted here (I recognize some commenters from other online hangouts) and I’d like to see it continue in some fashion.
Laura Resnick on June 19, 2015 at 5:57 am said:
I know this one. Going online looking for reasons to be outraged can get addictive and I can understand the attraction (anger is an energy), but it’s easily destructive. So while I got angry initially, I’ve moved on and have tried to channel that energy in more constructive ways: I’ve been moved to commit filk for the first time (left the last line out in error: “So carefully carefully with the slates!”), and I’m putting my name to the “E pluribus Hugo” proposal.
@idontknow:
I’m an non-USian, been to a handful of cons and just one Worldcon, but I can relate to growing up with a tight group of geek friends who did not care about race or orientation. I had that experience. In general, fandom is a welcoming place but anyone who claims it’s nerdvana is unrealistic. I’ve been to cons where I’ve been the only Asian & had a great time, but there is a sense of being surrounded & outnumbered because I look ‘different’, and any small incident can get magnified because of that. So I can understand & believe when others report incidents that left them feeling less than welcome; get a large enough group of people together and you’ll experience a wide range of behaviours. You may not have witnessed incidents with your friends, but that doesn’t meant they didn’t happen. I also like to think that I’m more mindful than the average person about how minorities are perceived & treated, being one myself. The thing is, I try to take a sensible approach to it; still go to have fun but stay aware of my surroundings for my own sense of safety.
Re: Space Opera
It was a derogatory term but got rehabilitated with the “New Space Opera” which was basically Space Opera ‘done right’, but recently the “New” has been dropped in casual usage which I suspect is the reason for the slight confusion.
@Aaron
You’re right, something doesn’t have to be completely new to be challenging or enlightening, but if it’s going to re-hash old ground, then it needs to do so in a way that is either new or otherwise interesting and previously not done or at an absolute minimum not done with any frequency or regularity. The fact is, Firefly didn’t meet that criteria. Nothing Firefly did was new, nothing it did was groundbreaking and none of the presentations of the issues and themes was done in a way that was particularly thought provoking or upsetting of the status quo with respect to science fiction. I asked you for examples, and all you could provide me was a list of broad themes that firefly covered, themes which are quite familiar to anyone with even a passing interest in science fiction and fantasy. The best example you came up with was the sex-worker positive tones, which as others have pointed out was incomplete at best.
Again, however I feel you misunderstand my point. I do not argue that firefly was “almost exclusively simple entertainment” (and please note what I actually said, you have treaded dangerously close to once again putting words into my mouth) as an insult to or a disservice to Firefly. Indeed my point is an has always been that such “simple entertainment” is perfectly capable of being quality award winning work and that viewing it as somehow lesser or not rising to the level of award eligible simply because it is “simple entertainment” is doing a disservice.
Being simple entertainment is not and should not be a bad thing for science fiction and fantasy. And the mind set that says it is then requires us to engage in mental gymnastics in order to justify wanting to award quality simple entertainment (like Firefly) rather than simply acknowledging that it’s good, quality, entertaining and well written fiction that engages us. And that is a disservice to all of us, fans and creators alike.
And here you have crossed that line. I never said the only issue people had with the movie was the motherhood themes. I said that we are in a world were people are seriously taking issue with the motherhood themes, despite the fact that said arc largely parallels the arcs that the lead male characters in the first two films went though. You said we were not, I linked you to an article in a national paper which spends 64% of it’s time decrying the motherhood themes and only 10% discussing any other issues. Once again, you’re putting words in my mouth. As such, our conversation is over. Perhaps some other day we can have a discussion in which you will address the things I say, and not the things you imagine me to say.
MaxL, there are two fronts I have in mind.
First is very personal and pragmatic: What have you, J. Random Participant, tried saying in what manner? And how has it worked for you? What changes do you notice in others because of your engagement? Are these what you want? If so, carry on! But if not…what have you reconsidered? Have you compared your results with those of others using different rhetorical tactics? And so on.
Second is broader scale: What do we in general know about effective communication? What do we know about how people react to various styles of communication, and why? What turns out to be persuasive, and how can you, J. Random Participant, incorporate that into your own style?
Of course, a lot of the time, the answer is “Nothing much you say or do will actually matter, because the people you’re talking to aren’t engaging with you but with a mental model not guaranteed to resemble you at all.” Then side questions come up like, “Are there bystanders who may be influenceable?” and such.
And there are times when priorities lead in different directions. These days I’m kind of big myself on the important of maintaining places people of like mind can deal comfortably with each other, particularly when they’re on the social outs like serious progressives. Balancing that out with outreach concerns and such is…well, there’s no valuesometer to show what the correct priority for any given place should be, at least that I know of. 🙂
I gotta get out of here, tomorrow morning is Sour Cherry Season.
Yeah, central NJ is really at the edge of sour cherry’s range — we don’t get a crop every year, there’s too much of a chance that frost will kill the blossoms. The orchard opens officially for cherry-picking at 9, we’ll be there at 8:30. The season is often over by noon. In a good year, though, we can get enough cherries to have pies for every birthday or holiday until Valentine’s Day.
@Bruce Baugh – Thank you for the nod. I’ve no doubt you get it, for reasons already stated, but it sounds so bizarre that it’s worth amplifying: “This shit really does happen to us. Truly.”
And I could almost try to cover up my typo by saying “it happens so often that I predict it will happen on Christmas 2015” – but no, it was 2014. Though I have cause to hope Randy Jackson will make Christmas shows at Hurricanes a tradition.
—
@P J Evans (to somebody calling himself GK Chesterton despite assuredly not having written The Man Who Was Thursday) :
Hi there!
(Geaux Saints)
—
@clif:
Speaking as a long-time Slactivist semi-regular, I’d just like to say that you are appreciated.
I picked up Homeland by Cory Doctorow, Ashes of Honor by Seanan McGuire and pre-ordered The End of All Things.
I’ve read about science fiction quite enough for the day, time to go read some science fiction.
“The Girl-Thing Who Went Out For Sushi”, Pat Cadigan.
Holy Christ and all the saints, Michael Z Williamson posted something on Facebook about Charleston that is…I mean… @eilatan on Twitter has screenshots, not linking directly because…just…dude. I don’t have enough trigger warnings in the world.
Yeah, I’m out for the night. Forget the Hugos, I am starting to wish the Puppies had never happened just so that I didn’t have to know these people were in my industry.
If somebody tells me I’m supposed to hug this guy into decency, fair warning, I’m gonna seriously flip my shit.
Hi there!
(Geaux Saints)
Niner fan, but I’ve rooted for the Saints. (And for Green Bay.)
Nothing Firefly did was new, nothing it did was groundbreaking and none of the presentations of the issues and themes was done in a way that was particularly thought provoking or upsetting of the status quo with respect to science fiction.
Now you’re shifting goal posts. You said it wasn’t “challenging or enlightening”, but now when it has been pointed out that something doesn’t have to be new to be either, you’re shifting to say that the problem is that it wasn’t new or groundbreaking. First, something doesn’t have to be new or groundbreaking to be something greater than just escapist entertainment. Nothing Shakespeare ever wrote was new or groundbreaking. His plays were rehashes of older pieces, and played on well-worn themes.
Second, by the standard of “new and groundbreaking”, there’s nothing that will be anything but escapist entertainment, because there’s no story that is new or groundbreaking. Every story that you can come up with in science fiction over the last seventy years is a rehash of something that came before it. One final thing you seem to be overlooking is that if an issue was enlightening or challenging when it was brought up in a previous story, there is a very good chance that it still is. Just because The Twilight Zone tackled issues of racism, classism, and sexism doesn’t mean that those issues weren’t still enlightening or challenging when Star Trek covered them. Or when Firefly dealt with them.
I said that we are in a world were people are seriously taking issue with the motherhood themes, despite the fact that said arc largely parallels the arcs that the lead male characters in the first two films went though. You said we were not,
For someone who whines about people “putting words in your mouth”, you seem to like to do it quite a bit. I never said no one was complaining about that story line. I said if you think that was the only thing that people were pointing out that was sexist in the movie, you weren’t paying attention. And then you pointed to an article that had a whole collection of complaints that had nothing to do with the motherhood issue as if it proved your point, when it proved the opposite.
The other element you are missing is that the way the story line is handled in the new movie is very different from how it was handled in the first. Neil’s character wasn’t portrayed as a bad person because he didn’t like or want kids. He wasn’t portrayed as being some sort of freak because he was good at his job and not good with children. Claire, on the other hand, is. The entire treatment of Chase in Jurassic World is only “parallel” to Grant’s in Jurassic Park such broad strokes that there’s nothing left of either but “goes from not liking kids to liking kids”. How a story is handled matters as much as what the story is, and Jurassic World handled the story in an incredibly sexist manner.
Holy Christ and all the saints, Michael Z Williamson posted something on Facebook about Charleston that is…I mean… @eilatan on Twitter has screenshots, not linking directly because…just…dude. I don’t have enough trigger warnings in the world.
There are no words.
I’m reading Saga vol. 3 and I just got to page 48 in the Hugo packet and had to stop for a bit until my case of the sniffles went away. Right in the feels. I’m glad I went back and read volumes 1 & 2 first.
@TM
I think the “uptight career woman who needs a fun loving guy to loosen her up and make her want children” is a sexist trope. It can be done well, I’m sure, but its been repeated to the point of nausea. If we had more variety in story arcs for women it probably wouldn’t be sexist, but we don’t, and it is.
Similarly: Rape as origin story. It can be done well! But gawd, at this point I hesitate to look up female comic book characters. I’d rather not know, and it happens way too often.
Yeah, Williamson’s tweet is drawing shock and horror from a lot of people in my feed. I couldn’t believe it myself.
I haven’t read it…but Wisdom from my Internets doesn’t have anything like that in it, does it?
@redwombat, what aaron said.
I am shocked to my core that anyone could be so heartless.
@RedWombat
That actual piece of shit.
On the same day the families of the victims came forward and forgave their murderer, this asshole decides to make light of it?
@RedWombat 🙁
Ah, Williamson defended it thusly:
“Fascinating, though, that none of the 100 previous cocktails, about Fred Phelps, the Malaysian Plane Crash, etc, earned ire.”
Paulcarp, sweetie, I saw your message on the bus on my way home. Which is where I am now.
Huh, this is getting weird. .