72 thoughts on “Panda Study Trip Bringing Children to Glasgow 2024?”

1. Joe Yao of the Chengdu Worldcon committee has provided new information which I have used to update the post:

   Absolutely fascinating to see a Chengdu counterpart respond to activity occurring on File770. This should weigh heavily against the ‘focus on the west’ thesis, since the counterparts are both aware and capable of replying to the issues that have been raised.

2. @Andrew Porter: “being refused entry to the UK and being put on the next plane back to China ”

   Assuming they had their visas in order, why would the UK border control want to get involved?

3. Absolutely fascinating to see a Chengdu counterpart respond to activity occurring on File770.

   Right? Especially from Dave’s Hugo team counterpart. Absolute crickets in regard to the 2023 Hugo stats stuff for a month now and almost immediate response on this.

4. @Jake–The organizers are saying the teenagers are going to “work” on the convention. Which everyone volunteering on a convention is warned not to say when crossing an international border is warned not to say. Because yes, it will get you denied entry.

5. The H Book Club blog has pointed out on X.com that the cityscape in the second panel is of London.

   And while we’re at it, pester 4 is Tower Bridge, also in London, and Goddess only knows what planet number 3 is from, but I’m pretty sure that’s not Glasgow.

6. Absolutely fascinating to see a Chengdu counterpart respond to activity occurring on File770. This should weigh heavily against the ‘focus on the west’ thesis, since the counterparts are both aware and capable of replying to the issues that have been raised.

   Because it comes from China. I have pointed out that they can do nothing with the criticism from the West. However, if any Chinese fandom casts doubts, they can use their resource to extinguish them easily. They can pretend they did nothing and ask Chinese students to shut up. This power cannot walk across the Pacific. I have expressed my great anger to this in my guest article.

7. A group of 60 Chinese 10-18 year-olds showing up at a Worldcon wanting to read you their stories? For cryin’ out loud, hold a session for teen storytellers and go listen to them. See if there’s any Glaswegian teacher who wants a teen rountable on World SF. Show some Chinese anime and let the kids explain it to us. It sounds great.

   Assuming this company actually goes through with it and contacts Glasgow, tell them kids can’t volunteer and if they want organize any activities of their own they’ll have to do them off-site.

   Re. the high cost of the tour, post an announcement in Chinese social media: you are invited to Glasgow Worldcon, here are some estimated costs, we can send you a letter if needed for a visa application, you are welcome to bring your kids. Then let the free market decide.

   But build some bridges.

8. @Brian Z.: Running a Worldcon is a lot of work already. I don’t think you should be voluntelling the people who are running the Glasgow Worldcon to do additional unpaid work for the benefit of a company that is charging a very high price for its tour.

   There are people whose job it is to help would-be visitors and tourist agencies arrange visits, including hotel information. Their job is to build that sort of bridge; if you want to do it free, go ahead, but it’s a lot easier to say “why don’t you?” than to do the work yourself.

9. I agree, there’s plenty for teenagers to do, if they’re fans.

   On the other hand, I think Glasgow might consider speaking to at least the Scottish equivalent of the US State Dept, and have this responded to, and squashed, hard. Don’t let them get ideas that they can take over/buy in, etc.

10. Vicki Rosenzweig on February 21, 2024 at 3:08 pm said:
    @Brian Z.: Running a Worldcon is a lot of work already. I don’t think you should be voluntelling the people who are running the Glasgow Worldcon to do additional unpaid work for the benefit of a company that is charging a very high price for its tour.

    There are people whose job it is to help would-be visitors and tourist agencies arrange visits, including hotel information. Their job is to build that sort of bridge; if you want to do it free, go ahead, but it’s a lot easier to say “why don’t you?” than to do the work yourself.

    Sure, I’ll help. Getting teens to Worldcons is important.

    But you mischaracterize what I said. I mean if they’re really bringing the teens, then take advantage of it in ways that make the Worldcon better. I suggested just three sessions – teen writers, World SF rountable with Glasgow and China teens, and Chinese anime. It could be something else. But do something that enriches the con.

    Volunteer work, activities for this group – obviously none of that is Glasglow’s problem. The tour company will have to organize all that and find their own venue.

    About the price, if that wasn’t a price point at which many Chinese parents are willing to pay, they wouldn’t have put it on the poster. Since it’s double compared with a normal guided tour, they’re going to have to justify that. I saw they’re buying out entire floors of nice hotels for the children only to stay, and will have staff and teachers monitoring them. They’re doing an education program with “Cambridge Ph.D.s”, who probably charge more than an average tour guide. I’m not sure it’s our job to police whether that’s an appropriate price. But do distribute information on how families might come just by buying a membership – and if anyone does want to do it that way, write them a really good letter of support for their visas.

11. There’s a lot of negativity here. I’m with Brian for the most part. Make sure that the parents buying this package tour know that “working at the con” is not guaranteed, that’s the big thing. There damn well should be YA streams already part of the con. Probably any kids wanting this kind of holiday will speak better English than most of the residents of Glasgow, or at least, closer to “standard” English.
    A couple of coachloads of young fans won’t damage the con.

12. There’s a lot of negativity here.

    There should be. People who are capable of running a $10,000-a-student trip to Worldcon know how to go through proper channels to make it a mutually beneficial experience for themselves, their travelers and Worldcon.

    One of the fears expressed during the site selection vote won by Chengdu was that China’s record on IP protection would lead to Worldcon- and Hugo-related marks being used without permission by entities that won’t follow our rules.

13. I think that we can expect more of this in the years ahead.

    If panels on global aspects of SF and fandom are planned, please don’t forget that “global” means more than Scotland and China. It certainly includes the US and Canada. China was only the fourth non-English speaking nation to host a worldcon. Japan was the Asian site of one. Egypt, France, and Saudi Arabia were bidding for 2026. Israel is bidding for 2027, Brisbane and Kampala for 2028. If a fandom is vibrant enough to have recently run a worldcon, to have bid, or to be bidding for a future one, it certainly would entitle representatives from those nations’ fan (and pro) communities to be represented in any “global” discussion.

    A second point is what will these kids and their parents be expecting, what will they feel that the tour company AND the worldon has “promised” them? Will they expect meaningful positions in the planning and running of the convention when all they should be getting is entrance level gofer jobs? Will they expect the con to provide space for panels they want to run, spaces where they can display their art and read their stories? And when they don’t get these things, what sorts of pressure and how much pressure and what sorts of pressure will they apply?

    My final concern is what sort of memberships will these kids have? Part of the extra cost of this tour is probably due to inclusion of a worldcon membership fee. If they don’t have them, they can’t get on site. Will they — or the tour organizer — expect some sort of group discount?

    The age of majority, in this case, the age at which they are eligible to vote in the site selection and Hugo pollings, is 18. What will be done to ensure that those below that age don’t vote (or have their ballots marked “None of the Above)? If the tour will be bringing kids as low as age 10, will the youngest ones be impacted by rules about unattended children? Finally, where are these kids to be housed? Are reservations made? Are they staying at con hotels and, if so, at con-negotiated rates?

    A lot of questions, but what are the answers?

14. @Brian Z, NickPheas, and Lew Wolkoff

    All three of you seem to have ignored the part where a travel agency that is in no way affiliated with the 2024 worldcon, is making promises on behalf of said worldcon, while also charging parents out the wazoo.

    It’s as if I I promised a group of people that if they showed up at your house, you’d bake them cookies, read and critique their stories and then let them crash in your basement. Then I charged them $10k each for this package, expecting you to deliver.

    Shouldn’t I get you on board first? Are you the bad guy if you fail to fulfil my promises–for my own profit–made without your consent?

15. @Lew Wolkoff: From what I can see at Glasgow 2024’s membership page, it is specifically contemplated that anyone 11 years or older who has an attending membership must also have a WSFS membership, which would allow them to vote in the Hugo Awards and attend and vote at the Business Meeting (and in site selection, too, if they pay the site selection fee).

    For that matter, it appears that children 10 and under are eligible to purchase WSFS memberships too, but they aren’t required to have a WSFS membership to attend.

    The WSFS Business Meeting continuing resolutions say that “there are no age limits on membership in the society” (CH-1990-1) and “While a Worldcon may establish discounted memberships that do not include WSFS voting rights, any person of any age holding a class of membership that includes voting rights may exercise those rights” (CH-2015-03).

16. Also nitpick:

    have their ballots marked “None of the Above”

    The option you’re looking for there is “no preference”. “None of the above” is a vote. But as long as they are a “natural person” with a WSFS membership, they may cast a preferential ballot.

17. Further nitpick: @Lew Wolkoff is assuming both that there is a minimum voting age at the WSFS Business Meeting, and that the minimum age is 18, probably because that’s the current minimum voting age in the United States.

    The United States is not the entire world. Glasgow is in Scotland, where the voting age for both local elections and the Scottish Parliament is 16.

18. Joshua is right. If a 12-year old with a WSFS membership wants to come to the business meeting and participate in debate and vote, they are allowed (they might need to be escorted by an adult to the meeting, depending on convention rules, but they are allowed to participate). Voting age for local political elections is not relevant to WSFS business.

19. I’m reminded of an anecdote I once read. Supposedly, in the late 1940s or early 1950s, a college student fan wrote in a fanzine that he was planning, at the upcoming Worldcon, to start organizing a national association for young science fiction fans. The response he received was unenthusiastic, but he didn’t know why.

    Then when he arrived at the Worldcon, he finally understood the problem with his proposal. Most of the convention committee that year were younger than he was.

    (Confirmation of the accuracy or inaccuracy of this story will be willingly accepted; I don’t even know where I read it.)

20. Joshua K.: I wouldn’t discount that story, however, I will add there was an organization via correspondence started as early as the late 1920s.

21. This is going to a great PR stunt for the corporation that’s behind it.

    “We promised all of this, but those dishonest people at Glasgow took it away from your children!”

22. Pingback: Chengdu SF Museum Statement About Proposed “Panda Study Trip to Glasgow” - File 770

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