Update 02/20/2024: Joe Yao of the Chengdu Worldcon committee has provided new information: “The Panda Study Trip has NOTHING to do with Chengdu Business Daily, it is a local travel agency who generated this product. There is NO leader from CBD who posted this information on their social media platforms.”
Zimozi Natsuco reports they received an ad about a commercial study trip from China to the Glasgow 2024 Worldcon, which features these graphics:
(The H Book Club blog has pointed out on X.com that the cityscape in the second panel is of London.)
Natsuco sent an inquiry to Glasgow 2024 chair Esther MacCallum-Stewart asking whether the company organizing the trip has contacted the convention.
Honorable chairman,
Today, I received an advertisement for a commercial study trip. The trip will be organized by Panda Study Trip, a related company of Chengdu Business Daily (CBD). The leader of CBD posted the advertisement in his WeChat Moments.
In this advertisement, the company claims that it will bring children to join the Glasgow Worldcon. Children will work as volunteers during the conference. They will join several panels held by the company and hold personal sci-fi art exhibitions during the Worldcon. They will also join the Hugo Award ceremony. Before the trip to Glasgow, the children will receive professional training in science fiction under the guidance of a Cambridge Ph.D. The cost for the whole summer camp is over 68888CNY, about 7500 pounds, which is much higher than a regular trip from China to Glasgow.
I wonder if the company has set up connections with the Glasgow committee and if there is any fund support. Also, I wonder if it is possible under the law of WSFS to organize this kind of business trip. Also, I’m looking forward to an official announcement from Glasgow.
Glasgow 2024 chair Esther MacCallum-Stewart replied in File 770 comments:
This is not affiliated with us in any way. We have had no correspondence on this matter with anyone from Chengdu. Children are not permitted to volunteer at our convention for multiple reasons including health and safety and child protection. There are no panels of this nature being organised by Glasgow 2024 and there is no other way to host panels at Glasgow 2024 other than through our own programme team.
Natsuco followed up:
Though the advertisement came from WeChat Moments of a leader of Chengdu Business Daily, I believe this plan will be officially announced. And I am willing to share the details in my email, which has been sent to your committee.
Also, maybe this is an experiment to test the reaction from the fandom. But I think as a huge commercial plan, it is difficult to be cancelled. It showed the ignorance and disregard of the WSFS constitution in CBD.
This plan is set up for those parents who do not have enough knowledge of science fiction and Worldcon. It describes Worldcon as a chance to fulfill the children’s experience and education. It takes advantage of poor information and the lack of promotion of Worldcon in China.
Arthur Liu / Heaven Duke offered this comparison point about the price of the trip.
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So, it looks like they want to continue to hijack WorldCon.
I would personally welcome Chinese fandom to any Worldcon, but this seriously sounds like CBD expects control over some part of the convention, and that will never happen, especially in light of recent events.
Is that the London Tower Bridge in the last image?
I wonder if what’s actually planned is to rent a separate facility in Glasgow for this “summer camp”, with panels put on by CBD and art exhibitions for the kids and letting the kids volunteer to help with that, and to pretend that it is part of the Glasgow Worldcon. Because a whole lot of parents would be very upset when their kids came back and told them they did not get to do any of the promised things.
Also, I can only imagine the riot that would occur among Worldcon members if numerous Chinese minders showed up with 60 kids and expected them to be let into the Hugo Award ceremony, when it is likely that there will not be sufficient capacity in the 3,000 seat theatre for everyone who wants to attend.
Memberships? Adults? Do they even have a clue?
Natsuco: “Also, maybe this is an experiment to test the reaction from the fandom. But I think as a huge commercial plan, it is difficult to be cancelled.”
This sentence is the most intriguing part of the whole affair. The second sentence in this quote from Natsuco may suffer in translation, but it sounds like a threat. Why would Glasgow 2024 care what Panda Study Trip does? Is Natsuco actually involved in this plan and is pushing Worldcon to let Panda have their way? Hopefully, this is a mistranslation rather than some sort of nefarious plan.
Robert Thornton: Is Natsuco actually involved in this plan and is pushing Worldcon to let Panda have their way?
No, Zimozi is saying that now that CBD has announced this trip, it is very unlikely that they will cancel it.
Zimozi is not affiliated with CBD. They have been a valued member of the File 770 commenting community for many months now. A lot of the information we know about the Chengdu Worldcon — especially some of the items showing dubious integrity on the part of the organizers — was supplied by Zimozi.
@ JJ
Fair enough. I sincerely apologize to Zimozi and I humbly beg their pardon. As you might guess, I just started posting after a long hiatus and I am behind the times. Thanks JJ for giving me the opportunity to apologize.
Rob
Well, Chengdu is the gift that keeps on giving. Good luck, WSFS and Glasgow.
@Robert Thornton
Considering that Zimozi Natsuco’s other comments here have indicated that they do not look at all favorably on CBD, I think you are misconstruing that sentence.
eta: ah, already explained while I was typing.
Wow. What’s the Chinese word for “chutzpah”?
oh, my poor English!
So I need add some words. The test means that the leek of the advertisement is used to see if Chinese and western fandom will welcome it. If there are too many objections the plan might not be mentioned again just like it has never happened. However, CBD is a company, it is impossible for them to do this kind of reckless business plan.
As to me, I strongly disagree with the plan. They might take control of the memberships of the children, which will cause new disasters in Hugo Award and business meeting. It is too expensive and it’s unfair to the children’s family. Also,if this kind of group travel doesn’t look for communication with Glasgow ahead of time and is announced and promoted, it will also lead to disasters in the panels, parties and ceremonies. We can imagine if a member in Glasgow committee or a sf writer is invited to make a photo with the children, he or she might be described as a honor guest who supports the plan.
Sounds to me like CBD figures they “own” an ongoing right to WorldCon now, or at least their interpretation of it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they keep using the term as part of their event branding around the world whenever it makes sense to their own internal logic.
If the Uganda 2028 bid falls through I bet they can get CBD to partner with them and throw a Uganda WorldCon and business development event in Kampala, no problem
@Robert Thornton–No. That second sentence is Zimozi saying that having announced it, China Business Daily, will not cancel it lightly. Zimozi is a fan like us, and has done an amazing job reporting from China on the Chengdu bid and con, including the shady stuff.
I had an erroneous impression earlier of the age range of the children in question, probably because in colloquial English “children” when not specifically referring to one’s offspring tends to mean people younger than teenagers. In my informal experience, these youngsters might better be called teenagers or minors.
Be that as it may, WorldCons are not set up for teenagers any more than they are for younger children. In fact, it’s an ongoing low level crisis how little there is for teenagers to do at literary sci fi conventions.
I don’t see how this group can possibly make the extravagant promises they are making without the knowledge and cooperation of the Glasgow WorldCon team. Any attempt to pressure Glasgow into compliance with a fait accompli is just going to cause trouble and upset for the young people involved and everyone else having to deal with this situation.
This whole thing sounds very strange.
Zimozi Natsuco: They might take control of the memberships of the children, which will cause new disasters in Hugo Award and business meeting.
Hopefully, the Teen membership badges at Glasgow will be distnctively different from the adult badges, so if a bunch of adults wearing teen badges show up at the Business Meeing, it will be obvious.
One thing that was touted during the Smofcon 40 panel on Chengdu was how great it was to see so many children attend. They arrived in huge groups from schools in groups and were allowed in for free.
I can see why that happened at the Chengdu Worldcon because a flashy new science fiction museum was an obvious draw for schoolchildren.
I can’t see how a normal Worldcon would be so attractive to children that an expensive trip like this from China would make any sense at all.
This seems like a racket.
Do teen members have equal status to adults in the business meeting?
“In fact, it’s an ongoing low level crisis how little there is for teenagers to do at literary sci fi conventions”
Apologies for going off on a tangent, but are teenagers nowadays just a completely different species? When I was a teenager attending Worldcons (ages 14-15-16-19) I went to panels and readings, got autographs, shopped in the dealer’s room, watched the masquerade and Hugos, enjoyed the art show, went to room parties of various sorts, watched Doctor Who videos all night, did Regency dancing, started making and wearing costumes, talked with lots and lots of people, took photos, did a little gaming, swam in hotel pools when they had them, and (at 19) started volunteering. And once I got wildly drunk.
As far as I know, all these options are still more or less available and nothing is stopping teenagers from doing any of them. Is it that there is “nothing for teenagers to do” or is it that Worldcon/lit cons are a minority interest for teenagers, just as they were when I was one, albeit from the completely opposite direction?
@bill: Yes; see ruling CH-1990-1 in the Resolution and Rulings of Continuing Effect (overruling a point of order against an eleven-year-old seconding a motion on the grounds that there are no age limits on membership in the Society).
However, there are limits on other things underage members can do; hence the need for distinctive badges. They’re not allowed to volunteer for the con. They are limited in what alcohol-licensed areas they can go into.
@Susan, underage members would definitely not be allowed at room parties now. Everyone is IDed at the door.
Glasgow has not published their policies yet, and obviously this is a different country, but these were Dublin’s policies in 2019:
https://dublin2019.com/about/important-information-for-members-under-18-years-of-age/index.html
Also, membership for children 10 and under at Glasgow does not include WSFS membership, so they could be at the Business Meeting, but not allowed to participate or vote.
@JJ:
Other than the after-10pm limits, the 15-17 rules are not drastically different than my experience. I didn’t have to provide contact info for a responsible adult. As far as I recall I had a regular membership, no special badge or anything. And I’m entirely unclear how one stops any group of people from going back to a hotel room and having a (quiet) private party.
But the increasing helicopteriness of society is not really my point. If most teenagers are not interested in the things Worldcons/lit cons do well…then perhaps they are not the place for most teenagers? I mean, they’re not something most adults are interested in, either. The end result (few teenagers) may be the same, but correctly identifying the problem impacts how to address it.
As a teen of the ’80s I think we were different than the teens of today. The ubiquitous Internet and all the ways you can be social on a glowing screen has changed a lot of childhood. I don’t think they have massive boredom as a strong motivator to get out of the house, make social connections, date and discover incredible things like conventions. There’s also so much more in the world to make them anxious, stressed and pessimistic.
There are still teens who find their way to cons and fandom. I went to a new con in Tallahassee and there was a nice-sized crowd of people under 20, mostly cosplayers. But things we loved as teen fans in the time of the ancients are a harder sell today.
@bill:
It sort-of depends. I don’t think it is unheard-of for parents to just buy a “full” membership for their child(ren) who are on the older side rather than messing around with the different badge types to save a few bucks.
Joe Yao of the Chengdu Worldcon committee has provided new information which I have used to update the post:
“The Panda Study Trip has NOTHING to do with Chengdu Business Daily, it is a local travel agency who generated this product. There is NO leader from CBD who posted this information on their social media platforms.”
The only thing I can say is it’s very easy to delete the list and ask staff to shut up.
Maybe we can stop the huge commercial plan?
Zimozi Natsuco: Maybe we can stop the huge commercial plan?
It seems to me if you post a link on your social media to this article and say something like “Looks as though they are promising something they can’t possibly deliver” it might get back to them. Or at least the parents and students who might otherwise get sucked into it might realize it’s a scam.
That works great right up until badge claim requires an ID and they either don’t have one or only have one that says they’re still a kid.
If I was the Chair of Glasgow, I’d get to the nearest University and try to hire someone from the Foreign Languages department to write a response stating the usual “Oh HELL NO!” Statement, disavowing any of those promises, and then start emailing them out. Perhaps Dave and Ben might have some addresses that would be appropriate.
@Ja more like what’s the Chinese word for fraud?
@Ed Green
Maybe Ben. Asking or involving Dave in ANYTHING at this point would be extremely contraindicated.
The lack of any connection suggested elsewhere, that it’s an initiative or scheme by a local travel agency and unconnected with CBD, suggests it might be a flash in the pan and not even worth a response. But it bears watching.
Mark William Richards: Maybe Ben. Asking or involving Dave in ANYTHING at this point would be extremely contraindicated.
I don’t think you’ve been paying attention. Yalow is guilty of plenty here — guilty of some different things from McCarty, perhaps, but nevertheless he’s still up to his neck in this, and he shouldn’t be allowed to be involved with a Worldcon ever again, either.
There are plenty of native Chinese speakers in Glasgow, and for that matter in fandom.
Worldcon doesn’t (traditionally) require that children receive child memberships.
A child membership is a special, discounted membership that does not include/require a WSFS membership, but a child cho purchases orhaspurchased forthem an full attending membership will receive one (but still be subject to any policies afffecting their age group).
Mark William Richards said
My sarcasm font wasn’t engaged. I apologize. And I agree with your sentiment.
It would be interesting to find out whether Francesca Myman, Jeremy Szal, and Pablo Vazquez know that their images are being used to promote a scam.
https://wx3.sinaimg.cn/mw690/006fwGbmly1hn17oa36rsj30u01p2n60.jpg
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan said:
There are indeed. I was trying to suggest that that response would need to be written in a concise and precise manner.
I would say more, but I have an appointment at a nearby University to hire someone to translate my English into English.
@JJ
I just get a 403 error for that link.
Laura: I just get a 403 error for that link.
Interesting! It still resolves for me.
But try this one:
https://imgur.com/a/veI6y5Z
@JJ
That worked. And really? Adults at some convention…(is it a Worldcon? or another con)…doesn’t exactly say youth education trip.
Laura: And really? Adults at some convention…(is it a Worldcon? or another con)…doesn’t exactly say youth education trip.
That’s what I thought was really bizarre. If you’re promoting it as a great opportunity for Chinese teenagers, why wouldn’t your promotional posters show Chinese teenagers at a con???
I suggest a few panels. Have them in Mandarin and English. Panel 1. English Common Law, the Saxon heritage of law, the Magna Carta and the evolution of the Constitution of the United States of America. (I actually saw part of this in Salsbury one year at the Cathedral, they had a copy of the Magna Carta. I thought cool. This is interesting. As I went through the exhibit I noticed quotes from not only Winston Churchill but Abraham Lincoln. It ended with the US Constitution. Must have been dust in the air, my eyes were getting teary. Panel 2 The Rule of Law as demonstrated in the United Kingdom. 3. The rights of subjects of His Majesty Charles III to dissent. 4. How the Parliament works. These are just beginner panels.
I seem to recall these things did happen at Chengdu with the local school:
Whoever this is trying to make it seem like that’s a regular Worldcon thing.
This Chinese teenagers at Glasgow thing is probably run by the same people that are running the “pay Trump’s legal bills” GoFundMe.
(snark, of course, but one scam deserves another)
Someone should contact British authorities to alert them and make sure that this commercial venture does not happen. If this venture goes forward, being refused entry to the UK and being put on the next plane back to China should send a clear message to the trip’s organizers.
Laura: Whoever this is trying to make it seem like that’s a regular Worldcon thing.
I think it far more likely that this person doesn’t have a fucking clue what Worldcons are actually like, and is just assuming that what was done at Chengdu is done at all Worldcons.
Hoo baby, are they going to get a rude awakening when they try to get Glasgow on board with their wild promises. I’ll bet the smoke will be visible in North America. Possibly even in Chengdu.
Yes, but the question is how many of these (preferably with some translation training/experience) the concom has on retainer.
That’s true.
If their plan is more than take the money and run.
@Andrew Porter: Would British authorities really deny entry to a tour group just because the organizers made promises about certain activities that the organizers could not actually arrange for the group to participate in?
That would be an unusual level of consumer protection; I’m sure that the students would rather get into the UK and participate in some of the activities they were promised rather than being sent home and participating in none of them.