214 thoughts on “SFWA Denies A Membership Application”

1. And I saw the Djunglebook yesterday! It was so well made. Great animation, a wonderful Sherekhan, Kaa was perfect. Beautiful djungle. If I had seen it as a kid, I would have played djungle for a week. Not happy with King Louie, but I can live with that.

2. While we’re on book recs, I just finished Zoe Quinn’s Crash Override, and it’s certainly worth the time. Despite having followed the Gamergate mess closely for a while, there was a lot I didn’t know–just how far Gamergate went with harassment, doing whatever they could to damage people connected to Quinn (father, boyfriend, etc.), as well as Quinn herself. It’s horrifying stuff, how much damage Gamergate was doing in the real world to Quinn, Sarkesian, their allies, and innocent bystanders, in addition to the online harassment and sabotage.

   The second half of the book looks at various solutions and make suggestions. Some of them are good advice for anyone online, such as separating and protecting various online accounts with a pretty modest augmentation of security habits. And there’s a lot of food for thought about how to be an ally, asset, or sympathizer when someone is experiencing harassment, cyberstalking, dogpiling, etc.

   The book also changed some of my opinions about online interaction. To give just one example, I have for years, for example, been opposed to people using anonymous handles online, and I dislike sites that allow it. It has always seemed to me to provide a cloak for trolls and harassers, people who don’t want to take responsibility in real-world terms for their appalling behavior. But Quinn’s book made me realize that many non-abusive people want or need online anonymity for a host of reasons I had never considered. (Similarly, I’ve always thought the best goal for my own online interaction is to spend LESS TIME ONLINE and more time being present in my own life. That is also how most of my friends feel. (But being online is fun and addictive, after all.) I realized while reading Quinn’s book that I feel this way because I like my life and have a lot of choice about how I live; for people who are stuck in unhappy or strained situations, the online world is a lifeline, and it’s insensitive and unhelpful to suggest those people should “just get offline” if they encounter harassment, trolling, and abuse.)

3. For the record, here’s the killfile instructions “from way back when”. I’d already plonked Jo because she repeats the same nonsense over and over while pretending to be polite – a true sea lion in every sense. As Kendall pointed out, the plonk “address” is b6e9f407e84bafead2b0e4f248703265.

   I appreciate the book recommendations, though, and love how the negative turns to positive when folks post them.

   Hampus – I’ve continued watching The Flash, but you’re right. For a show about a speedster, the plots develop excruciatingly slow. It’s best to watch while browsing the web or doing something else.

4. @Hampus: “Two days after christmas, I was told by my doctor that I had high blood pressure and might have to start taking pills for it. Which would affect my evaluation for ADHD and medication for that.”

   Ooh, I’m dealing with that. Dr. cut my ritalin prescription in half and put me on just one long-acting dose per day, so only about 8 hours of coverage instead of 12 as before. I hates it.

5. Aaron:

   [Comment from Jo about leaving school early]

   That would explain why your analysis is so very juvenile.

   I get where you’re coming from and I agree 100% with your conclusion here, but tying it to someone’s level of formal education isn’t a good argument, and crosses into rather unpleasant territory. I’m certain there are people with limited formal schooling who could engage with the substance of this conversation without resorting to misrepresentation and repetition, and a distinct but overlapping subset who wouldn’t defend the behaviour of a deeply unprofessional serial harasser over a fictitious version of events…

6. Jo, whether or not he used it in a response to an insult, Del Arroz’s use of an obnoxious term for a person with autism is not acceptable to me. It’s a matter of where a person goes when they want to be vile. I’ve seen where he goes.

7. Just strongly seconding Arifel’s comment.

8. For everyone that is isisting that there is a witchhunt against conservative writers:
   Why are the only victims Vox Day and Jon del Arroz?
   Are they the only not moderate writers in the medium who aren’t superfamous?

   Anyone who wants to add Mike Resnick and Barry Malzberg they had a writing gig ended not the same. (Mike Resnick is still a member of the SFWA)

9. Oh, and this is somewhat tangentially related (though perhaps evidence that it’s harassment, not politics, that matter), but recently I’ve seen a few non-sci-fi folk on twitter quote Sriduangkaew approvingly. Has she changed?

10. Aan’s script is still working for me. I’m using it with Stylus now instead of Stylish.

    I just added Jo to the one I set up on Userstyles; it’s easier than starting from scratch on my mobile devices. I’m sure I’ve missed some deserving energy creatures while I’ve been mostly AFK, but it’s a usable starting point.

11. My general reaction is about as it was for when Worldcon 76 made a similar decision.

    I understand completely why the decision was made. I think the decision was the right decision. But the decision (or at least the root cause for the decision) makes me sad. It could so easily have been avoided, by simply not being an antagonistic arsehole on-line.

12. Jo says whineingly Calling SFWA a leftist organization is like calling the ocean damp. These folks are one step away from full on reverse McCarthyism. “Have you or anyone you’ve ever known voted for Trump?”

    And why the Hell would someone like JDA wish to join an organzarion whose politics, if they were like that, and be part of? Seriously WTF? SWFA is a community of writers which exists to provide support in their efforts to male a decent living from writing stories that will hopefully appeal to as many folks as possible.

    JDA wanted to join you his own repeated admissions to cause trouble by making folks uncomfortable. Communities within the genre, be they SWFA, WorldCon or even a local book club don’t exist to make folks uncomfortable at the level JDA wanted to do.

13. @Shao Ping–

    Oh, and this is somewhat tangentially related (though perhaps evidence that it’s harassment, not politics, that matter), but recently I’ve seen a few non-sci-fi folk on twitter quote Sriduangkaew approvingly. Has she changed?

    I think it’s more likely that she’s playing her tricks in a new community where they’re not familiar with the Requires Hate debacle.

14. @Lis Carey: That makes sense (and admittedly a few tweets isn’t necessarily evidence of anything).

15. I’m certain there are people with limited formal schooling who could engage with the substance of this conversation without resorting to misrepresentation and repetition, and a distinct but overlapping subset who wouldn’t defend the behaviour of a deeply unprofessional serial harasser over a fictitious version of events…

    Sure. Jo’s lack of education is an explanation for her lack of ability to reason and make a cogent argument in support of her position, but it isn’t a condemnation of all who lack an education.

    Realistically, people online are who their commentary show them to be, and one’s education (or lack thereof) is not relevant to the discussion. A lack of education is not a guarantee of poor arguments, and it is certain that having an education isn’t something that will make you competent at supporting your position (I mean, we all know how lousy JCW and his spouse are at making cogent arguments, and they both have fancy college degrees and everything).

    That said, there are tendencies. An education helps, but is not necessarily required for being well-informed and being able to organize one’s thoughts. There are, of course, autodidacts who are every bit as well-informed as people who have had the benefit of formal schooling, but they are relatively uncommon. There are, of course, people who have degrees who are complete buffoons (which is actually distressingly common, and a condemnation of a portion of the higher education system).

    But in Jo’s case, we have evidence that she simply has no clue about what she is opining upon, and given her statement about her lack of education, we can identify the likely source. It is certainly possible that even had she had more formal schooling she would still be a clueless clown, but I would suggest it would be less likely.

16. @Aaron I’ll try and be clearer: I don’t think any of what you’ve written above, or any of Jo’s track record – as ridiculous as it has been, and as much as it may cause us to doubt whether individual statements are genuine – justifies shaming someone over a vulnerability they have shared.

    I have no interest in speculating about who Jo, or anyone, might have been if their opportunities or life path had been different, or by implication making them feel unworthy simply because they haven’t had the access to education which you or I may have.

    I appreciate and support the unwillingness to suffer fools among many of the regulars here, but the line you’re taking turns that into privilege punching down, and that’s a conversation I fundamentally object to.

    Think that’s all I have to say on the subject…

17. Thank you for saying it Arifel. I too was getting a little pissed off.

18. justifies shaming someone over a vulnerability they have shared.

    It wasn’t a vulnerability that Jo shared. It was a blatant attempt to generate sympathy by claiming to be disadvantaged. I don’t actually believe anything Jo has said about herself for a single second – she started her tenure here by spouting bullshit, and there’s no reason to take her “woe is me” pity story seriously.

19. OK, well, you have no way to verify that belief, but I see no value in a back and forth over the probabilities there. I will point out again that regardless of whether you believe what Jo shared is true, there’s a very good reason to not take a swipe based on that particular statement, which is that it relies on punching down. If you think that’s justified then all I can do is shrug and walk away, and remind myself never to show any personal vulnerability if I ever openly disagree with you on something more substantive…

20. @Aaron: If you don’t believe her, that seems to me even more reason not to claim she argues poorly because she only went to school until ninth grade.

21. there’s a very good reason to not take a swipe based on that particular statement, which is that it relies on punching down.

    It’s only “punching down” if you think education is an up and lack thereof is a “down”, which kind of undermines your position that they are the same.

22. If you don’t believe her

    One can simultaneously not believe someone and also engage with the claims they have made as if they were true.

23. @Aaron I have not claimed it is “the same”. I’m saying having access to education confers privilege and not having it is an axis of marginalisation. That statement is completely independent from any claims you want to make (I don’t care to make any right now) about correlation between a person’s ability to argue and their level of education.

24. @Aaron

    Well, look at it as a matter of pure tactics then. Jo has provided copious material to show why no-one should take her seriously – avoiding evidence provided, dodging the point, condoning JDAs harassment, general sealion-ish behaviour etc etc.
    With all of that to work with, adding in a point that allows her to claim she’s being subjected to rudeness, disbelief or whatever is unnecessary and potentially counter-productive.

25. One can simultaneously not believe someone and also engage with the claims they have made as if they were true.

    One can, and that makes your comments gratuitously insulting to Jo and people with a “lack of [formal] education.”

26. @Aaron

    I don’t say this lightly, because I value your comments for the most part. However, I do believe you have crossed a bit of a line here.

    I only have an 8th grade education myself (though I subsequently got my GED and have taken some college classes). I have never mentioned it before because 1) it’s no one else’s business; and 2) it does not, and should not matter, for the purposes of commenting here, writing my blog, or anything else I do on the Net.

    As far as I know, no one has accused me of trolling and/or sealioning (and if anyone thinks I have done so, please let me know immediately). That’s because I don’t believe I have exhibited trolling/sealioning behavior. My education, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with the behavior I put forth.

    Jo, on the other hand, has exhibited such behavior (although my, and kathodus’s, requests that s/he respond to specific linked examples of JDA’s harassing seems to have scared her/him off).

    So now I would make a request of you, and please think about it. Please do not bring Jo’s (or my) education into your comments. Their behavior here has done quite enough to condemn them.

27. Aaron: I’m with Arifel.

    It’s exactly like trying to fat-shame Trump: not only is it actually irrelevant in any way to the ways in which he is a horrible president and a terrible human being, the splash effects hurt other people with the same disadvantage. Fat-shaming Trump makes your own overweight friends feel hurt. Sneering at Jo’s education is not only irrelevant to the ways she keeps trying to defend a serial harasser (when she could be talking about books!) it makes other self-educated people feel shame.

    Short version: Don’t mock an enemy for a thing you wouldn’t mock in a friend.

    Alas, I haven’t finished any new books since I last posted about current reading. Am working on Lord of the Two Lands by Judith Tarr, a magic-tinged historical, a re-read of Megan Whelan Turner’s the Thief (book 1) and A Conspiracy of Kings (Book 4 – I reread and remember books 2 and 3 much better) in advance of reading book 5 in the series, and Tremontaine Season one.

    Mt. TBR’s most likely list currently includes Nisi Shawl’s Everfair, JY Yang’s Black Tides of Heaven, Seanan McGuire’s Every Heart a Doorway, Turner’s Thick as Thieves, and Paul Cornell’s Witches of Lychford.

28. Don’t mock an enemy for a thing you wouldn’t mock in a friend.

    I’m not sure how you get “mockery” out of what I said about Jo. I said it provided an explanation – I didn’t mock her for a lack of education.

29. It was rude and unnecessary, in my opinion.

30. It’s jarring to me to see Gareth-Michael Skarka feuding with someone who isn’t one of his Kickstarter backers.

    Well, I say “see,” but as Skarka has me blocked on most social media, all I can see are people quoting him. Sometimes. I’m one of those Kickstarter backers I mentioned above.

    I find myself hoping that both of them pull permanent Twitter bans.

31. When Jo admitted to less education than you have, you pretty much said “That would explain why your analysis is so very juvenile.”

    If that ISN’T mockery, what is it?

32. If that ISN’T mockery, what is it?

    Explanation.

33. It was rude and unnecessary, in my opinion.

    Rude? Probably.

    Unnecessary? Nah.

34. For the record, as I mentioned later on Twitter, I hadn’t considered the volunteer labor factor (brought to my attention by Elizabeth Bear, among others) — and, as I said to her and Scott that I see that giving JDA propaganda-fodder was the “least worst” option SFWA had — they had no good ones.

    And Eric — I have no problem with my Kickstarter backers. Yes, my project is horrendously late — for which there are myriad reasons, including nearly dying, a return-to-cancer scare and several other things. It’s still coming out, and the overwhelming majority of my hundreds of backers understand that.

    My problem is with an extreme minority, of which you are a part, who, despite having already been issued refunds, engage in Del-Arroz-esque harassment of me via social media. That’s why you’re blocked, Eric. I urge you to LET IT GO. Stop this bizarre focus on me.

    To everyone else: I apologize that this was dragged into File770’s space.

35. Aaron, in what way was it necessary to aim a cheap shot, one you yourself admit was probably rude, at someone you are perfectly free to engage substantively with or else ignore?

36. @Aaron:

    I’m not sure how you get “mockery” out of what I said about Jo. I said it provided an explanation – I didn’t mock her for a lack of education.

    Now you’re minimizing. The phrase “so very juvenile” is insulting and mocking, not neutral. Do you really believe that only formal education can result in mature analysis, as opposed to actual maturity regardless of education?

37. And this is why you don’t feed the energy creatures. They win when they bait someone into being intemperate, and they get the fun of watching the community turn on itself.

38. @Eric Franklin

    I believe that after Mike went to press with this article Skarka ended up agreeing with people in that thread that it was the least-worst option.

39. Do you really believe that only formal education can result in mature analysis, as opposed to actual maturity regardless of education?

    If you had bothered to read any further in the thread you’d know the answer to this already.

40. The above having been said — I don’t think Jo has been unintelligent, ignorant, or juvenile in analysis. Self-educated or formally-educated, typical vocabulary and syntax have been cogent and advanced. Whoever Jo is, she’s no Donald Trump.

    I do think that Jo has been deeply disingenuous and dishonest. I strongly suspect that Jo is a crafted persona; a sockpuppet, and that the “details” of “her” life are part of a false flag. (Why would someone who lives in a city use hotel wifi from the outside, rather than going into public libraries, coffee shops, or even large stores? It’s almost as if “she” is going on memories of when free wifi was rare…)

    And the following seems relevant for some reason:

    Jonah Yu: It’s all just a stupid mistake!
    Nick Zerhakker: “Never attribute to stupidity what can adequately be explained by malice.”
    JY: You got that quote backward.
    NZ: Nah. Your way around is stupid.
    JY: Or malicious?

41. Other uses for the Stylish File770 killfile: Putting people on “timeout” who have suddenly, inexplicably turned into jerks who double down on their jerkiness even when half the regulars are telling them “Dude, you’re being a jerk, stop it.”

    I can always squint at the grayed-out text to see when they’ve stopped being jerks. But in the meantime, I just don’t need the feelings of hurt and betrayal involved with someone who’s supposedly on my side suddenly starts acting like a jerk.

    In other words, I co-sign everything that Arifel and, well, everyone else, said.

42. @Aaron: Avoiding acknowledging that “so very juvenile” is mockery is disingenuous.

    Being disingenuous is not necessarily so very juvenile, but it can be.

43. @Aaron

    So, JDA is getting to make hay out of this thread:

    https://twitter.com/jondelarroz/status/955491483187949568

44. So, JDA is getting to make hay out of this thread

    He’d make hay out of anything. That’s his M.O. Worrying about what JdA is going to do is a suckers game.

45. I don’t think Jo has been unintelligent, ignorant, or juvenile in analysis.

    She’s been all three. Her recounting of events has been childish at best, her assessments of what constitute harassment have been both unintelligent and ignorant. Her knowledge concerning legal matters has been completely uninformed. Her understanding of the issue presented has been infantile at best. Her knowledge about the specifics of JdA’s behavior has been woefully lacking.

46. Being disingenuous is not necessarily so very juvenile, but it can be.

    Since you clearly haven’t bothered to read much of anything that I’ve written here, why should I care what your assessment is?

47. @owlmirror —

    “Why would someone who lives in a city use hotel wifi from the outside, rather than going into public libraries, coffee shops, or even large stores? It’s almost as if “she” is going on memories of when free wifi was rare…”

    Depends on the size of the city, the time of day during which they are posting, and their ability to pay to sit in a coffee shop or avoid being thrown out of stores.

    Case in point: I live in a rural area outside a town small enough to not have a mall. Not a tiny town, not a real “city”. My only access to wifi is through the hotspot on my iphone, and the reception is sometimes unreliable. So occasionally I’ll drive into town to surf some faster wifi sources when I want to download lots of gbs of whatever.

    We just this past summer got our first Panera, so now when Panera’s open that’s my choice for convenient wifi. When Panera is closed, the local McDonald’s will do — though the late-night manager has tried to throw me out just for sitting there, even though I had purchased food. I refused to be thrown out and won, but a homeless person could easily have gotten the boot. And though Walmart has free wifi, I can’t picture them being happy with someone sitting in their store for long periods of time commenting on message boards. Oh, and the local library closes early, and though they have a couple of computers, I’m not sure they even have free wifi.

    So that leaves hotel wifi. Been there, done that, especially before Panera came to town.

48. @Aaron

    Yes, JDA is going to do his thing no matter what. The article we’re commenting below is basically about how to get the least-worst outcome out of his insistence on doing his thing. Handing him and his ilk easy wins doesn’t do that.

    I don’t intend to persist in trying to persuade you of this, but please think about it. You’d made every point you needed to, and very well too, and then one more that undermined the whole lot.

49. Aaron, I’ve read all the comments and believe I have a fair understanding of the situation. I don’t usually offer advice, but I think this would probably be a really good time to let this go and go do other things.

50. Handing him and his ilk easy wins doesn’t do that.

    No one handed him an easy win. Notice that his tweet is simply a lie. No one has attacked Jo for being homeless. Jo’s comments have not been “maybe Jon isn’t that bad”. This entire thread could have been nothing but discussion about knitted tea cozies and Jon would have made something up. Its what he does.

    If your takeaway from this thread has been that I am attacking people with limited education, I don’t think you read what I wrote accurately, but that’s probably my fault for not writing better. If you felt attacked, then I apologize for that.

    I don’t believe anything Jo has said about herself, because her track record thus far has been essentially nothing but lies and disinformation. There is no real reason to expect her to be truthful about facts that no one can check on when she has been so willing to lie about things that people can check on.

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