aka Think Blue, Bark Two
Brad R. Torgersen, John C. Wright, T.C. McCarthy, Michael Senft, Henry Dampier, Lis Carey, Chris Gerrib, Alexandra Erin, Font Folly and Protest Manager are the featured participants in today’s roundup. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Morris Keesan and Craig R.)
Brad R. Torgersen
“Musings, not necessarily sorted” – May 13
Because ultimately this isn’t even about Sad Puppies, or what we said, or did not say, or what we did, or did not do.
This is about the Hugo award, and Worldcon, and decades of seeping stagnation, and the ossification of the mindset of the so-called “keepers” of the field’s self-proclaimed “most prestigious award.” An award that seems to too often deliberately avoid what’s actually happening in the marketplace, has become the personal toy of a self-selected crop of individuals who are happy to play at being large fish in small fishbowls, and does itself and its legacy a disservice by catering to taste-makers and taste-shapers. Both for reasons related to art, and for reasons related to politics. As I said above, the number of people in this group is finite. The actual fans (small f) are legion.
Sad Puppies 3 is an effort to bring fans (small f) to the table. No matter how much people have bashed it, lied about it, or tried to paint it as something it’s not, Sad Puppies 3 is “open source” and egalitarian. We asked for suggestions in the run-up to the formation of the slate, and we encouraged everyone to buy, read, and participate with an open mind. No expectations. No tests. No rules. We demanded nothing. We threatened nothing.
John C. Wright
“On the Unwritten Code” – May 13
A meme currently circulating among the Social Justice Warriors in their relentless attempts to made poor, poor big-eyed puppies sad with their heaping awards upon talent-free uberleftist message fiction is that Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen and Vox Day, merely by asking fans to read and nominate worthy works, have violated the strict and scrupulously observed unwritten code of gentlemen forbidding the crassness of asking for votes in public.
Asking for votes in private, or if you are a Politically Correct leftist in good standing, of course, provokes no furor, as it is evidently not a violation.
I call it a meme because it is a thoughtless and absurd white noise of words, a self replicating sentence phrase that means nothing and says nothing. It is an accusation leveled because the accusers have run out of other, more credible, accusations, and they are not well behaved enough to shut their mouths with dignity after their case has been argued and lost.
Without eventual, organized fan/consumer activism as seen in #gamergate, #sadpuppies will ultimately fail. More thoughts to come.
— Based SciFi (@tcmccarthy_) May 13, 2015
Michael Senft on Relentless Reading (And Writing About It!)
“Marie Brennan and Mary Robinette Kowal talk fantastic women throughout history” – May 13
We also touched briefly on the Hugo controversy, with both authors weighing in, although Mary understandably was reticent to discuss Puppygate. Here are some excerpts from the interview.
Brennan: I sincerely hope that slates will not become the wave of the future, because I find them utterly antithetical to the entire spirit of the Hugos. It is one thing to say “here’s what I published last year” (I’m grateful for that one, honestly, because it reminds me of when things came out, and which categories they fit into, and oh hey I meant to read that story); that doesn’t bother me. Neither does people posting to say “here’s stuff I think is Hugo-worthy” — that’s just fannishness at work. But a named campaign, stretching across multiple years, whose public rhetoric focuses less on the awesomeness of the stories and more on the political message they will send to the “other side”? I’m not in favor. And that would be true even if the slate in question were filled with stories I had already enjoyed.
Kowal: I can’t actually comment on this much, because I decided to try to do something to bridge the gap between the multiple groups of fans and am crowdsourcing a set of supporting memberships for WorldCon. So I’m trying to stay neutral to avoid swaying votes. Which means that I’m declining any Hugo nominations next year (since a supporting membership this year means you can vote next year) and attempting to not express opinions about any of the nominees.
I will say that I’m seeing a lot of people, all around, who are feeling alienated. I think everyone needs to do a better job of listening.
(The principal text of the interview is online at azcentral.com.)
“The stories we have to tell” – May 13
“Moreover, men literally have no clue how much they talk. When Spencer asked students to evaluate their perception of who talked more in a given discussion, women were pretty accurate; but men perceived the discussion as being “equal” when women talked only 15% of the time, and the discussion as being dominated by women if they talked only 30% of the time.”
My conclusion: men think women talk too much because they think women should be silent.
This perception problem isn’t limited to gender issues. Any person in a position of power or privilege thinks that any time someone outside their group talks or is recognized more than a tiny fraction of the time that the others are dominating the situation…..
- And yes, it’s part of the reason that someone like Larry Correia and his cohorts—Brad Torgerson, Theodore Beale (aka Vox Day), and John C. Wright—can see more than one or two women or people of color nominated in a single category for the Hugo Awards and start screaming that science fiction is being taken away from people like them.
“About Progressive Situational Dominance” – May 13
The point of this is to argue that it’s a bad idea to challenge progressives in areas where they have institutional control. You could counter by using the recent example of right-wingers crashing the Hugo Awards, but ultimately, what that was good for was just demoralizing fringe progressives while heartening some right-wing genre fiction fans. The official science fiction author’s groups are, for the most part, still solidly progressive, and will continue to be so. Creating alternative institutions is more important and effective than trying to take over progressive institutions which are only nominally neutral.
The more profound impact on progressive institutions has come from the re-emergence of self publishing and small publishing enabled by Amazon and its eBook platform — a mostly neutral bookstore which has contributed much to the weakening of the progressive critical establishment, which they complain about endlessly. When the opposition complains about something, it’s wonderful, because they’re telling you where the pain is, and if they’re telling you where the pain is, then that’s where you should apply more pressure to cause more of it.
It’s also important to understand that, when making moral arguments in a progressive country, where most people believe in most of the tenets of progressivism, that you have the low ground when making such arguments. It’s futile to criticize progressives on moral grounds which they don’t accept, and which the majority of Westerners tend not to accept. You have to shore up the alternative moral institutions to provide those opposing sources of authority in order to create a self-sustaining resistance
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“Championship B’Tok, by Edward M. Lerner” – May 13
Paragraph by paragraph, this story is decently written. Character development hovers in the vicinity of competent. The plot, unfortunately, wanders all over the place, and doesn’t go anywhere really interesting. It’s possible this is a piece of a larger whole, and I can easily conjecture a larger whole in which this piece would make more sense, and being doing some important work for the larger story. Sadly, that is in no way indicated, and it’s nominated as a novelette.
Chris Gerrib on Heroines of Fantasy
“Wednesday Review: A Sword Into Darkness” – May 13
There’s an ongoing debate in Science Fiction at the moment. One very loud faction says people are abandoning SF because all our stories are “social justice novels” and we’re handing out awards not for good work but to hit a racial / ethnic / gender checklist. Since I vote on one of the awards (the Hugos) I found that argument rather unconvincing. One of the gentlemen on the other side, I discovered, had penned an SF novel entitled A Sword Into Darkness [by Thomas A. Mays]. The ebook price was right, so I bought it and read it. Overall, it’s a pretty good book – I’d give it three stars.
“Celebrating What Is Best In Science Fiction: Foundation” – May 12
Over the past month we here in the Sad Puppies Revolutionary Vanguard Party Ministry of Truth have received a number of questions about which classic works of SF do and don’t exemplify the goals of the Party. While our cohort John Z. Upjohn has done a fantastic job identifying SJW-infused works, we do not wish to present ourselves as wholly negative, so today we’re going to talk about one of the all time great works of SF, a classic of yesteryear which could never win a Hugo today. Yes, Isaac Asimov’s Foundation.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“Sad Puppies Review Books: IF YOU GIVE A MOUSE A COOKIE” – May 13
After a few hours of study, it seemed obvious to me that there must be an agenda at work, and as soon as I knew there was an agenda I could see it everywhere. It’s so easy to see agendas I’m surprised more people don’t do it.
The reason that SJWs have arranged for this hollow mockery of a book to be praised by all quarters is that it is basically a modest proposal for welfare benefits to immigrants. It starts by asking you the reader to imagine a mouse just shows up on your door unannounced and says he’s hungry, and then suggesting that you feed him. The words like “if” and “might” make this sound so polite, so reasonable. The rhythm of the book is I believe intended to lull the reader into a daze where you will nod along. “Makes sense,” you will say to yourself. “If a bunch of hungry vermin want to invade my home, why shouldn’t I give them the food off my table?”
Actually, numb nuts @woodenking one of our favorite #SadPuppies editors is a woman
— Protest Manager (@ProtestManager) May 13, 2015
And I don’t know whether I’m emotionally ready for this, but it is rather stfnal….
“So once again, I’ve said aloud what you think I should keep secret, out of fear of enraging people who will get all stroppy about it. Maybe you should caution them to be polite …”
Before Steve Moss continues the tone argument, he should post a link to where he’s ever counseled Correia, Day, Torgersen or other Puppies to mind their manners.
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little, I love the idea of a dinnerware-based review system. Metacrockerycritic.
Maximillian: “That was a very well written and intelligent book… But I *hated* it.”
Interestingly, I loved it for (maybe) the same reasons you hated it. I’ve been an atheist since birth, having been raised in no religion at all; so religious cultures — especially formal and rule-bound ones like Catholics and such (sorry if I’m getting Catholics wrong!) — these religious cultures have always struck me as very much like alien (SF alien) cultures.
So, you know, a SF book about this religious (alien) culture going out to study this other alien culture (really two alien cultures) was so interesting to me, especially since it seemed like it had been written from the perspective of someone from one of the alien cultures. (IDK if Russell is actually an alien, I mean a Catholic?)
I also liked the bits about the Jewish character, since I married someone Jewish. That’s an alien culture I know more about now.
If what you say is true for then American military, then I kind of feel sorry for them. It is kind of an amusing to consider that the ‘troops’ over here have a smaller chance of their pants catching on fire.
As for Navy over there not having fire retardant uniforms, one way to a typical uniform fire retardant properties is to wash or spray them with specific chemicals. Chemicals which might cause allergic reactions or possibly long term harm, which in the US could lead to a lawsuit for damages, and ever worse; negative publicity that harms enlisting.
@Danny Sichel https://file770.com/?p=22515&cpage=10#comment-262323
It was mentioned by Darrell somewhere, but I cannot shake off the idea of a spacecraft being destroyed because of a teacup. It is utterly comical, yet technically possible. Pride goes before a fall, after all.
But anyhow. I guess that’s about it.
For someone who can’t be arsed to actually read the SFF he wants to argue about, you sure spend a lot of time posting on here.
Why not take that time to go read some of the works instead so you can talk intelligently about them? Rather than handwave aside how much hard work and time it would take to read them while you post, and post, and post here.
So you don’t have any actual rebuttals, just pity for any military that needs fire retardant underwear?
Who in your military is FIGHTING FIRES without PANTS ON?!
@Junego: “I found this story by Elizabeth Bear. I think it’s pretty darn good. It certainly did all the things I expect from a short story.
So I’m kinda using this as a benchmark for excellent quality for last year. If a Hugo nominated work can’t, at some level, sit in the same bleacher section with this one, it doesn’t even get ranked after NA.”
I just checked out one of the Nebula nominees – “When It Ends, He Catches Her” by Eugie Foster. It gave me chills – in a good way. That a fairly average story like “Turncoat” got nominated and “When It Ends” didn’t is a travesty. It’s not that Foster’s story is better-written, although it probably is (I’m not a very good critic of prose). It’s that “Turncoat” had no emotional impact on me.
But “When It Ends” is about ballet, and therefore has girl germs or something.
@Peace => Reply to your comment: https://file770.com/?p=22515&cpage=7#comment-261905
@alexvdl, because you have not actually throw a proper rebuttal in my direction yourself. At this point, I do not consider this to be a debate of any kind, not even an argument, it is just discussion on how the world is different.
As for people fighting without their pants on, it is actually more about battlefield conditions and what migth happen. For example imagine that one reason or another the pants cinder to point where the heat and flames reach ‘cotton’ underwear. Something less fire retardant. Same goes with t-shirts, and other shirts worn under the jacket.
@Cpaca: the classic in that genre was a review in Field and Stream magazine in June 1959…
Oh, that’s a classic. Metacrockerycritic (thanks Bruce Baugh!) awards it a humorous milk jug in the shape of a cow (with apologies to Terry Pratchett).
Umm, I can’t believe this is an actual topic of conversation. China exists on US ships and submarines and is in daily use without too great a danger. Should these services someday field vessels of war in space, some analog of china may indeed exist. In a freefall environment, no variety of plate is too practical. If some means of artificial, spin, or thrust gravity is prevalent, “china” may indeed be used, though whether it will be the breakable porcelain we refer to will likely come down to a weight vs. utility argument. If boosting mass into orbit is no longer a concern, actual china may be used. In the event it breaks, sweep it up. In the event it breaks in freefall, and becomes an inhalation hazard, that’s what breathing filters and air filters in the HVAC system is for, which would likely be mandated until cleanup is completed. In terms of worries about relative hazards in a space battle, freefall bone china dust ranks pretty low, at least below lack of air/explosive decompression, acceleration injuries, physical shock injuries, fire, electric shock, radiation or thermal injuries, drowning in air, injury by unsecured debris (including broken or whole china), post traumatic stress, and worrying about my bank account while my significant other has access to all my funds. Given every single other thing to worry about in AJ/AS, this is what you guys key on?
As for underwear and fire retardancy, yes, the military has learned and re-learned that natural fibers or special fabrics, or treated fabrics are best, but the lesson is continually forgotten until some poor sap goes to save his buddy and ends up with his uniform melted to his skin, exacerbating his already significant injuries and requiring extensive skin grafts to survive. It was noted that the new Navy Working Uniform (or blueberries as they are known) is the MOST FLAMMABLE of all the services’ BDU type uniforms, so they’re use was . . . de-emphasized while underway with fuel oil systems operational. They promised to remember fire retardancy on the next iteration (though most of the time specially treated fabrics are just a nod to this requirement, since the fire retardant chemicals wash out of the uniform long before the end of their useable lives).
This PSA is brought to you by a USN Commander, mil-SF author, a recently labeled against my will Puppy, and someone who didn’t mind Ancillary Justice at all.
alexvdl @3:55 am- I wasn’t around for SP1 (and was barely aware of SP2), but here is a Larry Corriea post as to who SP1 successfully got nominated as part of SP1:
So maybe you should take your own advice and just stop talking?
@alexdvl “Who in your military is FIGHTING FIRES without PANTS ON?!”
Brave men, Alex. Brave men.
@delurking – I believe that Russell had converted to Judaism, but I don’t know where she converted from.
@Thomas A. Mays https://file770.com/?p=22515&cpage=11#comment-262544
Yes… Because I happened to mention how I started reading the free preview, and stopped reading when it came to the first mentions fine china. A concept that greatly annoyed, so I asked how the rest of the book went and it turned into a discussion about teacups in space.
And I guess I have to admit. I am incredibly intolerant towards having tea cups in space. *Imagine some chuckles mixed with coughs here.*
Thomas A. Mays
That we have had an earnest multi-day discussion on the flammable properties of underwear in the modern military and the potentially devastating effects of broken china on a civilization with the technological wherewithal to field FTL starship with artificial gravity is one of the signs that a seal from the Book of Apocalypse has been broken. Look it up, it’s right there in the KJV.
@Darrell, actually this is just fan talk. Passionate discussion on minute aspects often viewed with insignificance.
@ Thomas Mays – “Given every single other thing to worry about in AJ/AS, this is what you guys key on?”
Well, to be fair, there was just one poster who thought that was an important thing to bring up. As far as we can tell he does not actually read SF at all, but he feels very strongly that the puppies are correct.
You are even the second USN type to correct him on the dangers of dishes.
On the ‘blueberry’ uniforms, are those the ones that people say we’re specifically designed to make it impossible to spit people if they fall overboard? That never seemed like a good idea.
No, it is one of the signs that an apocalyptic seal has been broken. Look it up. It’s right there in the Bible. There is a whole paragraph about flame retardant underwear. You’ll note that we should be wearing boxers and not briefs. I know there are some people that believe the original Greek says otherwise but I trust the KJV transliterators.
@Darrel, the Bible is not really within my preferences when it comes to fantasy literature. Sure, great source for quotes, but… it is just not my cup of tea in space.
I don’t see how that has any relevance to the relevant biblical passage where it mentions china and flame retardant boxers. I wonder if that passage also predicts the Boxer Rebellion? I mean 19:01 can’t just be a coincidence, right?
I wonder if we have any experts on the prophesies of Nostradamus to cross reference that.
Is that a book that you actually have? If yes, then fly to it man and see what you can find out. Please take your time in poring over the text. While an answer is important an informed answer is more so. If however, as I expect, you do not have Nostradamus’ prophesies located on your dusty book shelves then perhaps you could do me the favor and search for it at a local library. You do, I trust, have libraries wherever it is that you are?
Thomas A Mays
Awesome post; thank you so much! I shall now drift off to sleep, secure in the knowledge that they will have to forcibly remove my teacup from my cold dead hand…
well, “Tuomas” and “Vainio” are Suomi names, so my guess is he’s in Finland.
Darrell, I wondered for experts for I admit not to be one in regards of prophesies.
I take this as admission that you lack said book on Nostradamus (which as you might recall I already suspected as likely) but since neither lack of book nor paucity in your familiarity with a subject has disuaded you from holding forth in the past I must wonder, why now? Surely you have a studied opinion on . . . well, everything. So please, I await your enlightenment.
@Tuomo: Sure, great source for quotes, but… it is just not my cup of tea in space.
OK, I’ll admit it – I LOL’d. Nice one.
@ Whym on May 15, 2015 at 2:46 pm said:
Good story. Normally I don’t care for zombies or most horror but I think this is well written, feels elegant. I’m not any kind of literary critic, either. This one is definitely better than the one or two I’ve read from each of the short Hugo categories so far.
That post by Larry is most entertaining when he whines that his buddy Sanderson won’t win a Hugo because of those damn SMOFs.
I urge you to see who won the Hugo for Best Novella that year. I’ll give you a hint, I have a signed copy of it on my bookshelf.
the blueberry’s might be flammable as hell but they’re a lot more comfortable than ACU’s. I don’t understand why the Army still has a damn button fly. If it’s because you can’t field repair it, then they can explain to me why the blouse has a giant zipper. And it has elastic waistband!
Damnit, I miss my NWUs.
You need to have china on a spaceship, because thats the correct container to drink tea from. And without tea, where should you dip the long dangly bit from the impropability drive to get it working?
Yeah! I can be comfy while sipping tea before my imminent immolation. Yeah, I remember getting fitted for ACUs prior to heading to Iraq as an EW officer (yes, CHENG, we realize you have no relevant experience, but you’re a warm body with rank, so …..). Those uniforms just ain’t right.
Personally I prefer my flame retardant coveralls. Most comfortable uniform ever. Makes you really appreciate eating off all that blue anchor china.
There’s really just something about being able to roll out of your coffin rack, hop into your uniform, slip on some sneakers, and bam, you’re good to go on watch.
That post by Larry is most entertaining when he whines that his buddy Sanderson won’t win a Hugo because of those damn SMOFs.
Its also kind of interesting because Correia seems to be claiming credit for things he didn’t really promote. Here’s his original post that kicked off the whole thing. Notice the lack of suggestions for most of the people he claims “Sad Puppies” got on the ballot?
One might also note that Correia claims credit for winning an Audie. Except he didn’t win an Audie. Audie’s are awarded to the narrator of a audible book, not to the writer.
>> I suspect that the Radchaai would disdain non-brittle porcelain. I can’t point at anything which would back this up (I’m not saying there isn’t a justification from the books, but nothing springs to recollection)>>
No idea if anyone’s reading this any more, but in SWORD, she drops a tea bowl and it shatters.
There is no subsequent gravity- or filter-related disaster that snowballs through the fleet, requiring the intervention of the kilted firefighters.
Yeah, but doesn’t that scene take place planetside?
At the beginning of Sword, the new lieutenant is observed selecting a fragile and valuable tea service for the ship. Thus, while that scene may take place planetside – I haven’t reached it yet – it is canon that ships routinely carry breakable china. It is, in fact, a sign of low status for them to rely on standard mess dishes. (It is also canon that artificial gravity exists and is used on both stations and larger ships, but not on shuttles.)
And yet, the ship we’re most familiar with lasted two thousand years under such horrific conditions. One can only imagine how terrifying shipboard conditions must have been by then. 🙂
Rev. Bob: “At the beginning of Sword, the new lieutenant is observed selecting a fragile and valuable tea service for the ship. Thus, while that scene may take place planetside – I haven’t reached it yet – it is canon that ships routinely carry breakable china. It is, in fact, a sign of low status for them to rely on standard mess dishes.”
This is where Tuomas’ insistence on relating Radch military traditions to 19th-20th-century human naval traditions let him down completely.
The emphasis on the importance of the drinking tea and having rare, delicate, and valuable china tea sets is not a Radch military tradition. It is a Radch cultural tradition which is, of course followed by those in the military, as well as by Radch who are not in the military.
In other words, Tuomas has admitted to not reading Ancillary Justice because it didn’t conform to his preconceived notions of what the book and culture described in it should be about.
[rolleyes] Presumably, those preconceived notions came from looking at the cover. [/rolleyes]
junego: “Anyway, I was noodling around just checking out what shorts were available in 2014. (I’ve always read *after* the awards were given and the ‘best of’ picked.) I found this story by Elizabeth Bear. I think it’s pretty darn good. It certainly did all the things I expect from a short story.”
Covenant by Elizabeth Bear was on my list of Hugo nominees (I read the anthology Hieroglyphy, which contains it and a number of other top-notch stories). It’s a fantastic story. It’s too bad the Puppy tantrum deprived it of its opportunity to be recognized, by instead substituting nominees which are at best mediocre.
And yes, Totaled is a decent story, but when compared to Covenant the difference between Hugo-nomination-worthy and not is pretty apparent.
Gah. That’s Hieroglyph. It’s a fantastic anthology.
>> Yeah, but doesn’t that scene take place planetside? >>
No, it’s when the get to the Athoek system, and the other ship suddenly gates.
They’re definitely in space, far enough from the closest civilization that it would take days to get there without gating.
. . . along with my dream of non-brittle porcelain. Alas!
No doubt this will show up in Ancillary Fanfic, v. XIII
“I suspect that the Radchaai would disdain non-brittle porcelain. I can’t point at anything which would back this up (I’m not saying there isn’t a justification from the books, but nothing springs to recollection)”
Porcelain dishes are a status symbol in the Radch empire (not just in their military). I’ve just re-read both books, and I can’t be arsed to go find it, but there is definitely a point where Breq says something about how the more fine and delicate porcelain tea sets are, the more expensive they are and the more highly they are prized. Complete sets of the most fragile stuff which are centuries old are considered priceless.
That bit’s in Sword, along with the documented breaking of three separate tea cups/bowls… which doesn’t have even the slightest effect on the ship’s systems. They’re just cleaned up and disposed of, like they would be planetside.
@ JJ on May 16, 2015 at 5:04 pm said:
I’ve put “Hieroglyph” on my list to buy when the paperback ebook price kicks in. I’m already blowing my budget between Hugo nom buys and all the other recommends from this group. Thanks all, I’m broke, but what an entertaining poverty!
I don’t mean to beat up on English, she’s a newly published author and will more than likely improve with time. (And she’s not exactly bad now, just learning her craft.) But, yeah, it isn’t fair to put her in the position of kicking something like this off the Hugo ballet. The comparison doesn’t help the old ego, I’d imagine.
junego: “But, yeah, it isn’t fair to put her in the position of kicking something like this off the Hugo ballet.”
To my mind, that crime of the Puppies’ is almost as bad as the fact that they gamed the nominations to begin with: that the unwitting human shields on their slates are now faced with 1) possibly placing after “No Award” as a casualty of the discouragement of slates; 2) seeing the final totals after the ceremony and finding out what they kept off the ballot; and 3) wondering for ever after if they could have gotten onto the ballot on their own merits.
Hell, even the 3 non-Puppy entries in the Novel category are going to know that, if they win, it wasn’t by competing against a full slate of their real competition.
It is a cruel thing the Puppies have done to those people.
CPaca: You do know that Field and Stream was consciously joking when they printed that review, right? Just to mention one detail, there is no such book as Practical Gamekeeping.
Kurt Busiek: For my money, you are easily the best writer working in comics today.
(With the caveat that I don’t consider Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman to be writers working in comics nowadays. But I hope and believe that you will not take offense at being ranked lower than those two.)
Bother. Forgot the </a> tag. Add my voice to those calling for a Preview function.
This thread may be dead, but I’m going to add a list–more of a top ten among things I read recently, rather than all-time top 10.
The Just City
The Grass King’s Concubine
Steerswoman series, books 2-4 (didn’t much like the first, but kept on, and really loved the 2nd book onwards)
Zero Sum Game