aka Think Blue, Bark Two
Brad R. Torgersen, John C. Wright, T.C. McCarthy, Michael Senft, Henry Dampier, Lis Carey, Chris Gerrib, Alexandra Erin, Font Folly and Protest Manager are the featured participants in today’s roundup. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Morris Keesan and Craig R.)
Brad R. Torgersen
“Musings, not necessarily sorted” – May 13
Because ultimately this isn’t even about Sad Puppies, or what we said, or did not say, or what we did, or did not do.
This is about the Hugo award, and Worldcon, and decades of seeping stagnation, and the ossification of the mindset of the so-called “keepers” of the field’s self-proclaimed “most prestigious award.” An award that seems to too often deliberately avoid what’s actually happening in the marketplace, has become the personal toy of a self-selected crop of individuals who are happy to play at being large fish in small fishbowls, and does itself and its legacy a disservice by catering to taste-makers and taste-shapers. Both for reasons related to art, and for reasons related to politics. As I said above, the number of people in this group is finite. The actual fans (small f) are legion.
Sad Puppies 3 is an effort to bring fans (small f) to the table. No matter how much people have bashed it, lied about it, or tried to paint it as something it’s not, Sad Puppies 3 is “open source” and egalitarian. We asked for suggestions in the run-up to the formation of the slate, and we encouraged everyone to buy, read, and participate with an open mind. No expectations. No tests. No rules. We demanded nothing. We threatened nothing.
John C. Wright
“On the Unwritten Code” – May 13
A meme currently circulating among the Social Justice Warriors in their relentless attempts to made poor, poor big-eyed puppies sad with their heaping awards upon talent-free uberleftist message fiction is that Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen and Vox Day, merely by asking fans to read and nominate worthy works, have violated the strict and scrupulously observed unwritten code of gentlemen forbidding the crassness of asking for votes in public.
Asking for votes in private, or if you are a Politically Correct leftist in good standing, of course, provokes no furor, as it is evidently not a violation.
I call it a meme because it is a thoughtless and absurd white noise of words, a self replicating sentence phrase that means nothing and says nothing. It is an accusation leveled because the accusers have run out of other, more credible, accusations, and they are not well behaved enough to shut their mouths with dignity after their case has been argued and lost.
Without eventual, organized fan/consumer activism as seen in #gamergate, #sadpuppies will ultimately fail. More thoughts to come.
— T.C. McCarthy (@tcmccarthy_) May 13, 2015
Michael Senft on Relentless Reading (And Writing About It!)
“Marie Brennan and Mary Robinette Kowal talk fantastic women throughout history” – May 13
We also touched briefly on the Hugo controversy, with both authors weighing in, although Mary understandably was reticent to discuss Puppygate. Here are some excerpts from the interview.
Brennan: I sincerely hope that slates will not become the wave of the future, because I find them utterly antithetical to the entire spirit of the Hugos. It is one thing to say “here’s what I published last year” (I’m grateful for that one, honestly, because it reminds me of when things came out, and which categories they fit into, and oh hey I meant to read that story); that doesn’t bother me. Neither does people posting to say “here’s stuff I think is Hugo-worthy” — that’s just fannishness at work. But a named campaign, stretching across multiple years, whose public rhetoric focuses less on the awesomeness of the stories and more on the political message they will send to the “other side”? I’m not in favor. And that would be true even if the slate in question were filled with stories I had already enjoyed.
Kowal: I can’t actually comment on this much, because I decided to try to do something to bridge the gap between the multiple groups of fans and am crowdsourcing a set of supporting memberships for WorldCon. So I’m trying to stay neutral to avoid swaying votes. Which means that I’m declining any Hugo nominations next year (since a supporting membership this year means you can vote next year) and attempting to not express opinions about any of the nominees.
I will say that I’m seeing a lot of people, all around, who are feeling alienated. I think everyone needs to do a better job of listening.
(The principal text of the interview is online at azcentral.com.)
Font Folly
“The stories we have to tell” – May 13
“Moreover, men literally have no clue how much they talk. When Spencer asked students to evaluate their perception of who talked more in a given discussion, women were pretty accurate; but men perceived the discussion as being “equal” when women talked only 15% of the time, and the discussion as being dominated by women if they talked only 30% of the time.”
My conclusion: men think women talk too much because they think women should be silent.
This perception problem isn’t limited to gender issues. Any person in a position of power or privilege thinks that any time someone outside their group talks or is recognized more than a tiny fraction of the time that the others are dominating the situation…..
- And yes, it’s part of the reason that someone like Larry Correia and his cohorts—Brad Torgerson, Theodore Beale (aka Vox Day), and John C. Wright—can see more than one or two women or people of color nominated in a single category for the Hugo Awards and start screaming that science fiction is being taken away from people like them.
Henry Dampier
“About Progressive Situational Dominance” – May 13
The point of this is to argue that it’s a bad idea to challenge progressives in areas where they have institutional control. You could counter by using the recent example of right-wingers crashing the Hugo Awards, but ultimately, what that was good for was just demoralizing fringe progressives while heartening some right-wing genre fiction fans. The official science fiction author’s groups are, for the most part, still solidly progressive, and will continue to be so. Creating alternative institutions is more important and effective than trying to take over progressive institutions which are only nominally neutral.
The more profound impact on progressive institutions has come from the re-emergence of self publishing and small publishing enabled by Amazon and its eBook platform — a mostly neutral bookstore which has contributed much to the weakening of the progressive critical establishment, which they complain about endlessly. When the opposition complains about something, it’s wonderful, because they’re telling you where the pain is, and if they’re telling you where the pain is, then that’s where you should apply more pressure to cause more of it.
It’s also important to understand that, when making moral arguments in a progressive country, where most people believe in most of the tenets of progressivism, that you have the low ground when making such arguments. It’s futile to criticize progressives on moral grounds which they don’t accept, and which the majority of Westerners tend not to accept. You have to shore up the alternative moral institutions to provide those opposing sources of authority in order to create a self-sustaining resistance
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“Championship B’Tok, by Edward M. Lerner” – May 13
Paragraph by paragraph, this story is decently written. Character development hovers in the vicinity of competent. The plot, unfortunately, wanders all over the place, and doesn’t go anywhere really interesting. It’s possible this is a piece of a larger whole, and I can easily conjecture a larger whole in which this piece would make more sense, and being doing some important work for the larger story. Sadly, that is in no way indicated, and it’s nominated as a novelette.
Chris Gerrib on Heroines of Fantasy
“Wednesday Review: A Sword Into Darkness” – May 13
There’s an ongoing debate in Science Fiction at the moment. One very loud faction says people are abandoning SF because all our stories are “social justice novels” and we’re handing out awards not for good work but to hit a racial / ethnic / gender checklist. Since I vote on one of the awards (the Hugos) I found that argument rather unconvincing. One of the gentlemen on the other side, I discovered, had penned an SF novel entitled A Sword Into Darkness [by Thomas A. Mays]. The ebook price was right, so I bought it and read it. Overall, it’s a pretty good book – I’d give it three stars.
Sad Puppies
“Celebrating What Is Best In Science Fiction: Foundation” – May 12
Over the past month we here in the Sad Puppies Revolutionary Vanguard Party Ministry of Truth have received a number of questions about which classic works of SF do and don’t exemplify the goals of the Party. While our cohort John Z. Upjohn has done a fantastic job identifying SJW-infused works, we do not wish to present ourselves as wholly negative, so today we’re going to talk about one of the all time great works of SF, a classic of yesteryear which could never win a Hugo today. Yes, Isaac Asimov’s Foundation.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“Sad Puppies Review Books: IF YOU GIVE A MOUSE A COOKIE” – May 13
After a few hours of study, it seemed obvious to me that there must be an agenda at work, and as soon as I knew there was an agenda I could see it everywhere. It’s so easy to see agendas I’m surprised more people don’t do it.
The reason that SJWs have arranged for this hollow mockery of a book to be praised by all quarters is that it is basically a modest proposal for welfare benefits to immigrants. It starts by asking you the reader to imagine a mouse just shows up on your door unannounced and says he’s hungry, and then suggesting that you feed him. The words like “if” and “might” make this sound so polite, so reasonable. The rhythm of the book is I believe intended to lull the reader into a daze where you will nod along. “Makes sense,” you will say to yourself. “If a bunch of hungry vermin want to invade my home, why shouldn’t I give them the food off my table?”
https://twitter.com/ProtestManager/status/598362225460391936
And I don’t know whether I’m emotionally ready for this, but it is rather stfnal….
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Top 10:
“The Madness Season” C.S. Friedman
“God Stalk” PC Hodgell
“Bridge of Birds” Barry Hughart
“Raising The Stones” Sheri S. Tepper
“The Hero And The Crown” Robin McKinley
“Perdido Street Station” China Mieville
“Always Coming Home” Ursula K. LeGuin
“Small Gods” Terry Pratchett (and the witch books, as a group)
“Tailchaser’s Song” Tad Williams
“Snow Crash” Neal Stephenson
I’ll toss in a vote for “A Game Of You” from Sandman, for related graphic novels, and a “Best Media Tie-In” split between Duane’s “The Wounded Sky” and Kagan’s “Uhura’s Song” as well.
@Nick -“Also, it’s pretty silly to claim that you’re silent on the subject because you fear that the authors will be harassed. It’s a transparent joke.”
Well, remember, this is the same person who is still insisting that anyone who isn’t a puppy does not realize that different people can have different opinions and who keeps returning to drop his bombs of misunderstanding each day and then leaving, to ignore all of the responses.
The gravity disappears and the shattered fine china floats freely within a confined space.
Too bad no one has ever invented the technology of a cabinet to store things in.
Darrell,
I loved Hyperion and it’s sequel a lot more when I realized it was Chaucer IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
@alexvdl, okay one more comment.
I did mention chemical or mechanical reaction, as who knows how air filtering is handled on any possible speculative fiction airship. For example it could be a biological membrane of some kind. Or how it could have a protective layer of any kind to prevent the transfer of chemical or biological agents througout the ship. Hence for example a piece of fine china could me misunderstood as such attack by the vessel’s automated defense systems, which leads to adherance of preset protocols, and that in turn might make one disaster much worse.
Autopilot, human pilot, and something gone wrong… can lead to an even bigger disaster. I’d rather not go into the specifics of real world plane crashes. It is not my favourite topic to discuss.
Tuomas: “Change your account to stop harassment” only works for people for whom a public identity means nothing. People who wish to remain connected to friends and family can’t do that. People who are marketing their own work inline can’t do it. People whose livelihoods are online can’t do it.
This is the logic of the anon culture, where anyone who stands out from the crowd is asking for whatever abuse anyone sends their way.
You think that ships don’t have floor vents?
I’m not sure that you’ve ever been on a ship, and certainly not in the HVAC portions.
Like…. you have the actual physical filters, then you have ionic filters that trap all of the really small stuff. Keeping debris out of the filters isn’t really a concern. That’s their job. They filter stuff. I mean, the liquid in a ship is more of a concern than the freakin’ china. Do you think they don’t have LIQUID in space?!
The china question is a great one—why do people have freestanding bookscases in California, though when the Big One hits they may be crushed by a falling bookcase?
Because when the Big One hits, there will be other things to worry about, like exploding gas mains and crumbling bridges.
Same here. What if The Meanies attacked the ships during a diplomatic dinner, when the china was out and in use and not in the cabinet? Well then, not only would the china shatter, so too would a lot of the other stuff in the ship, and a Meanie Fleet that would attack a diplomatic dinner means that the china in the air vents is actually less important than the Meanie Menace generally.
Steve Moss:
“Will McLean @ 3:16 pm- It is mean spirited. Which is why I’m only considering it. But I would note voting No Award for everything on a slate is equally mean-spirited. And what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.”
I disagree, courteously. Voting no award for everything on a slate is a misguided attempt to discourage slate voting by draconian punishment. I believe this is a minority view, and I hope this is true.
Voting everything not written by Jim Butcher below no award is even worse, in my opinion. Because he may write well, but others write better.
I think that if we have the capability to prevent “China from harming the filters” now, they can manage it in the future where they have GIANT SPACE SHIPS WITH FTL AND ANTIGRAVITY.
Steve:
>> First- The issue is not whether Jim Butcher wins or losses the Hugo, it is whether he places below No Award. Simply losing to another author, that’s the breaks. Placing below No Award, that’s insulting.>>
No, it really isn’t.
>> The error that you are making is that if a small, minute fraction of Butcher’s fans, say 1% of a 100,000+ take it amiss, then fandom has a serious long term problem. Heck, if 1/10 of 1% take it amiss, then fandom has a problem.>>
Speaking as one of them, I don’t think they will.
>> Double those numbers next year. Maybe more. All because some can’t resist pouring gasoline on fire.>>
I don’t think voting according to one’s taste, ethics and conscience amounts to doing that, and people who think it does aren’t likely to be reasonable anyway. I think it’s a way of justifying bullying — do what we say or it’ll be your fault if we do more of it.
I think that if people don’t vote as they see fit, then it doesn’t matter if the Puppies do more of it, because they’ll already have done the damage. So I’d suggest that people vote as they see fit rather than surrender to vague threats about Jim Butcher fans getting medieval on the Hugos. I don’t think Butcher fans will.
For one thing, I think most of them are smarter than the current crowd of would-be intimidators, and for another, I think they’re more relaxed.
>> They really are in a win-win situation. And those who supposedly love the Hugos are charging over the edge of a cliff like a bunch of lemmings.>>
If they are, then it doesn’t matter, since they’ll win either way. So people might as well vote as they see fit.
But I don’t think things are as apocalyptic as you do, and repeating your doomsaying doesn’t make me think it’s truer than the last time I saw it.
>> Want to avoid alienating fans and further diminishing the Hugo in their eyes? Don’t insult their favorite authors.>>
Anyone who thinks their favorite author has to be judged Hugo-worthy or they’re insulted isn’t being rational to begin with.
Your drumbeat cry of “Surrender! Surrender! We’ll be meaner if you don’t surrender!” is just silly. You’re trying to act as if you’re a big threat and everyone should bow to the big threat, but you’re just not managing to sell it.
alexvdl on May 14, 2015 at 4:37 pm said:
“junego, I gotta say, I don’t know how you read more than one novel at the same time. I gotta do the one at a time thing. IF I pick up a second, I’m probably never going back to the first.”
It’s probably a shortened attention span defect on my part. :-p
My father did it, I do it, my son does it, his son & daughter do it. Nature or nurture? Alien mind control would be cool, too!
@Steve Moss: Want to ensure that SP/RP can’t do this again, year after year? Well, you can change the rules to make it harder for slates to rule.
I think that’s a good idea. I’m familiar with one pretty good proposal to that end, and I’m sure there are others. With luck, this year’s stunt won’t work in 2017.
That will take time, during which fandom should avoid cutting its’ own throat. And this will actually help the SP/RP long term stated goals as it will also minimize log-rolling, etc. So I don’t think they’d care and would even support it.
It might address their stated goals–given the frequency with which these change, it’s bound to sooner or later–but it’d be a deadly threat to their real goals. In 2014 they got several works nominated, all of which were hooted down in humiliating fashion. Their response: Give the voters nothing but puppies to vote for. Genius! “Now they have to give us our prizes! There’s no other choice!” Of course, there is, and the squealing when any non-puppy talks about that remedy is a pretty clear indicator that the puppies know it too.
I’m utterly unmoved by dire threats about what will happen if the puppies get No Awarded again this year, because if Noah Ward does have a big night, that shows that you have no ability to make good on your threats. This is, I expect, as strong as you get. Your nomination-round stunt worked because (a) very few people could be arsed to nominate, and (b) the rules permit a tiny but organized bloc to capture every nomination. Condition (a) won’t hold next year, and condition (b) likely won’t survive the year after.
Long-term, the best the pups can hope for is a repeat of 2014. If you want a picture of the future, imagine Ted Beale, finishing behind No Award, forever.
They really are in a win-win situation.
No, actually they aren’t. The Puppies lose no matter what happens.
If the Puppy works place behind “No Award”, then they’ve lost. Their attempt to get second-, third-, and fourth-tier works awards will have failed.
If a Puppy wins a Hugo, then they will find that fandom simply walks away from them. And the Puppies will have lost again. I don’t think you understand that awards are only valuable if they are seen as valuable, and if a Puppy wins with the kinds of works that have been nominated fans will simply look to other awards as indicators of quality. Why do you think people have been paying more attention to the Locus and Campbell shortlists this year?
If the Puppies come back with SP 4 next year, that’s still a loss for them, because it will once again prove that the Puppies’ work is mediocre to shitty enough that it can’t get on the ballot any other way. Every Puppy campaign is an admission on the part of its creators and advocates that the works being touted are simply not good enough to get on the ballot on their own merits. The Sad and Rabid Puppy campaigns themselves are a loss for those placed on the slate.
Nick,
It’s not even a diplomatic dinner! Officers eat off the china at EVERY meal. Well, maybe not midrats. It’s this formal ritual where no one sits down until the CO does, and then they have to wait for the CO to start eating before they can eat. AND they have to pay for that privilege! For some reason Officers have to pay for their meals, even underway.
@Tuomas Vainio : “okay one more comment”
You, sir, owe me a monitor.
Tuomas Vainio
For the love of God, would you please find a discussion point other than broken china and filters? I can understand someone writing a post about how Ann Leckie may have overlooked the possible dangers inherent in having fine china on a starship. I really can. Maybe you could go to her blog and ask if she’d consider china’s devastating impact in her next book? But I think that I can speak for everyone here when I say that we fully and completely understand your point even if we don’t agree with it.
I know that it is a mite selfish of me but how about channeling your energy into putting together a top ten list of SFF that you enjoy and posting that?
junego on May 14, 2015 at 5:24 pm said:
alexvdl on May 14, 2015 at 4:37 pm said:
“junego, I gotta say, I don’t know how you read more than one novel at the same time. I gotta do the one at a time thing. IF I pick up a second, I’m probably never going back to the first.”
It’s probably a shortened attention span defect on my part. :-p
My father did it, I do it, my son does it, his son & daughter do it. Nature or nurture? Alien mind control would be cool, too!
(Looks around embarrassedly)
I am these days generally reading a half dozen books at a time, novels and nonfiction alike. It slows my average book finishing time down, but something about having all those different thought-spaces to work in helps me play with ideas.
>> Too bad no one has ever invented the technology of a cabinet to store things in.>>
Or, failing that, doors to shut the dining chamber off from, say, the bridge.
There’ll be broken china everywhere when the artificial gravity fails!
Of course, the Radch have been around a long time and if this was an issue that had any likelihood of happening, would have adapted to it. Since they still use fine china, we can probably assume that their artificial gravity is sturdy, their cabinets hold things securely, their dining halls have doors, and all the other obvious remedies.
I’m kind of surprised he isn’t going on about how they’d need to drink from bladders, or eat only paste, because cups and silverware.
Those Locus and Campbell shorlists look great! So much excellent and interesting work.
Mr. Busiek,
Any chance you’ll be attending Phoenix Comic Con this year?
@Will McLean
“I disagree, courteously. Voting no award for everything on a slate is a misguided attempt to discourage slate voting by draconian punishment. I believe this is a minority view, and I hope this is true.”
Nope. Not winning a Hugo is not a punishment. I know that Larry Correia is deeply insulted that he was nominated for a Campbell but the vast majority of works are never even nominated and normal people would consider even a nomination to be an honor (though perhaps not this year since things have gotten so twisted.) “No Award” simply means that you think either the work is not up to Hugo standards or that the award got on the ballot through unacceptable means. I like Butcher, I could be counted as one of his fans, and his work is going under “No Award” on my ballot. You don’t get a ribbon just for participation and you don’t get my vote for a Hugo just because you gamed the system. That isn’t an insult, that’s just an honest protest against the Puppies who want to suppress work they deem politically unacceptable.
>> Any chance you’ll be attending Phoenix Comic Con this year?>>
No, but I’ve agreed to attend in 2016.
At this point I will pay good money for a short story by Ann Leckie where a Radch fleet is wiped out in a domino like effect while one of the opposing fleet’s admiral’s looks on. As ship after ship explodes the admiral will say to an aide standing next to her, a slight curl forming at the corner of her lips, “Looks like one of those bastards dropped a teacup.”
Gah! I can’t truthfully limit myself to a top any number of favorites. It changes from moment to moment. But I’ll throw in some of my toppish of list that I haven’t seen posted, yet. (I have very low, pulpish tastes. Don’t say you weren’t warned)
Fahrenheit 451 – Bradbury
Stranger in a Strange Land – Heinlein
40,000 in Gehenna – Cherryh
A canticle for Leibowitz – Miller (yikes, had to look author up!)
Grass – Tepper
Beggars in Spain – Kress
Doomsday Book – Willis
Paladin of Souls – Bujold
Pip & Flinx books – Foster (I wanted a flying poisonous snake sooooooo much)
Just like everyone else, I could go on & on & on.
@Darrell
Brilliant.
alexvdl: It’s true you’re in the minority for disliking Blade Runner, but you have some excellent company. Ursula Le Guin regards it as a complete betrayal of Dick’s fundamental message, and even though I like Dick’s work very much and like the movie very much, I have to agree. One of Dicks’s most important themes is that there is something about humanity that no machine can ever have, while of course Blade Runner is precisely about machinery becoming human. She was friends with Dick and really dislikes the idea of his work being used basically as cover for selling something so antithetical to his views.
So carry on, and don’t let the rest of us stop you. 🙂
Thanks, Bruce. That’s sorta cool to know
Kurt, awesome. Hopefully I can get out there next year too.
Oooh, we’re posting top tens now? Cool.
For series I love, I’ll just put the first book down.
1. Patrick Rothfuss – The Name of the Wind and sequel
2. Ken Scholes – Lamentation and sequels
3. Joel Shepherd – Crossover and sequels
4. Nancy Kress – Beggars in Spain and sequels
5. Joe Haldeman – The Forever War
6. Martha Wells – The Cloud Roads and sequels
7. Robert A. Metzger – Cusp
8. John Scalzi – Old Man’s War and sequels
9. Kim Stanley Robinson – Red Mars and sequels
10. Samuel R. Delany – dhalgren
This was incredibly hard to make, and it probably wouldn’t come out the same way twice. Most of these choices are pretty obvious, except for Shepherd and Metzger. Cusp is an incredibly underrated book – it kept surprising me with new conceptual twists right up to the end. And I love everything Joel Shepherd writes.
I had to whittle that list down from an initial list of eighty-odd books and series.
Darell
*slow clap*
Bruce Baugh:
You are of course correct that Blade Runner was false to the original novel. But “human is as human does” was a recurring Dick theme, and the movie was true to that.
Darrell – If I were to list my favorite Simmons novels they would be (in order): The Hyperion Cantos, Carrion Comfort, Ilium, and Summer of Night. Still I don’t think there are any Simmons novels that I don’t think are at least average.
Pretty much the same. The Abominable was a little too much him showing off his research skills, but I loved Drood. The recent 5th Heart book was okay but the premise was more interesting in the description than the book itself. The best thing Dean Koontz ever did was help him get published.
Hampus Eckerman @ 5:14 pm- It’s not reverse psychology. I’ve stated before I had three major reasons (now four) to get involved in this mess and debate, as opposed to simply reading and voting. One was Jim Butcher. I really am a fan and think he’s a Hugo worthy author.
The second was curiosity. It’s fairly obvious what the VD/RP are up to. The RP theory is that a portion of fandom always react emotionally and predictably; that they’ll rationalize their emotional response so they delude themselves into thinking they are being sensible. That they can be stampeded into acting a certain way, which they VD/RP can piggy-back onto to achieve their goals. I initially thought VD/RP couldn’t possibly be right. After have been engaged for a month, I now know VD/RP are not idiots but that doesn’t mean they’re right. But it’s beginning to look that way, at least on this issue.
The two issues became intertwined to a degree.
Regardless, thank you for reading Jim Butcher before deciding how to vote.
Will McLean @ 5:23 pm- We agree in part, disagree in part. I can’t speak as to three of the novels as I haven’t read them. But Skin Game is better than The Goblin Emperor. This is purely my opinion and I understand that we can disagree without making it personal.
I will read the other three and then decide.
Kurt Busiek @ 5:24 pm- We agree that there is nothing apocalyptic about the current situation. It is a vote on who wins a shining new trophy. It has no significant practical effect on the real world.
There is no drumbeat of “Surrender”. Vote No Award if you like and if you think it merited. But the desire of some trumpet their No Award votes to the sky is not particularly bright. We are now into our third year of SP. Each year they’ve come back stronger than before. It surprises me that people who want to allegedly protect their Hugo can’t figure out how to defuse the situation.
Laertes @ 5:27 pm- “This is, I expect, as strong as you get.” If by “you”, you mean SP/RP, then I think your mistaken. They’ve done everything right in order to grow their ranks as a practical matter. But we’ll see come August.
Aaron @ 5:28 pm- I don’t think fandom is a concern of fans. And as long as their readers buy their books, I doubt the SP/RP nominees will care.
As to the allegation that “the works being touted are simply not good enough to get on the ballot on their own merits”, that is mistaken. No one is forcing SP/RP to sign up, pay and vote. At least as to SP, they’re doing it because they like the work and they’re getting it on the ballot. RP is a different story, at least in part.
But we can disagree on the point.
I loved Simmons until about halfway through Olympos, when he was overcome by his hatred of muslims and let it completely take over. One page I’m reading a masterpiece, and the next I’m reading an idiot wingnut chain email.
Puppies whine about “message-fic.” You know what message-fic is? A story built around the idea that muslims want to re-establish the caliphate so they can build a submarine that will suicide-bomb the entire planet into a black hole.
Tuomas: ” Commenters here demanded a list of Hugo winning books that were according to the ‘puppies’ simply ‘crap’ – because the idea that someone might not like what you liked appears to be completely alien to the majority of commenters”
Bull. I refer you to my post: https://file770.com/?p=22401&cpage=4#comment-259061
Relevant portion: “…what I have are either Nick Mamatas request:
name
“a. one work of fiction
>b. that won a Hugo Award
>c. while foregrounding a left message to the extent that the story was ruined or misshaped
>d. per set of winners since 1995.”
(as quoted by you in https://file770.com/?p=22363&cpage=4#comment-258259)
To which you provided further details here, from your curated one-star amazon list: https://file770.com/?p=22363&cpage=5#comment-258300
Which, among others, contains crtiques of The Yiddish Policemen’s Union for “not being SF” (it’s a goddamn alt-history book) and of Rainbows end as a “It just boring ad for new technology”
Dude. Many of us understand the concept of subjective preferences. What I at least object to is the notion that I (and by some extension, the rest of the Hugo Cabal (TiNC)) have been prioritising lefty message-fic over good stories. So show us winners or examples where the message over-rode any such writing qualities.
It’s asking for criticisms from a specific type/ nature. What you’ve given are general dislikes, which would be useful if anyone was arguing with you that Hugo winners are universally loved and lauded.
No one is.”
@bbz:
I have nebulously pleasant memories of The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer – enough to remember enjoying it, but nothing more. Thanks for the reminder! Sadly, it is apparently not available as an ebook…
It surprises me that people who want to allegedly protect their Hugo can’t figure out how to defuse the situation.
It surprises me that you’d think there’s a way to come to an agreement with those who make baseless accusations against the Hugos, Worldcon and their voters that they can’t back up but continue to sling them. I hope they choose an author you like next year as well since so far you appear to be more Pro-Dresden than a Sad Puppy. And Mouse was never a sad puppy. If not you can find join us in complaining that the books you thought were good were instead shut out for Kate The Impaler’s friends and colleges instead of the best work while she talks about how it’s what the proles wanted.
Laertes
I’ve found Simmons, an atheist, to be mildly anti-religious and strongly anti-fundamentalist in several of his novels–though Simmons does seem to have an affection for Jewish characters. For whatever reason this has never really bothered me in his novels though I like Ilium more than Olympos, which I’d expected more from.
I don’t think fandom is a concern of fans. And as long as their readers buy their books, I doubt the SP/RP nominees will care.
Oh they care quite a bit. Their desperate grab for Hugo Awards is overwhelming evidence of it. They desperately crave prestige and legitimacy, and think getting a shiny rocket statue will confer it. I think that first, they will never actually win one, coming behind No award every time, and second, if they do manage to win one, they will find themselves in an empty room wondering why the ccolades are going to the people who won the Locus Award instead of them.
As to the allegation that “the works being touted are simply not good enough to get on the ballot on their own merits”, that is mistaken.
Sorry, nope. If you have to organize a slate campaign to get nominated, then your work isn’t good enough by definition to get on the ballot on its own merits. If you have to gin up support by phrasing your campaign as a “culture war” against “social justice warriors” (and the Sad Puppies definitely did do that), then you are admitting your work isn’t good enough to get on the ballot on its own merits.
The entire Sad Puppy campaign is the people organizing it admitting, over and over again, that their works simply are not good enough to legitimately get on the Hug Award ballot.
Re: the almost everyone’s list of recommended/favorite SFF (but especially ULTRAGOTHA’s and alexvdl’s (for including Diana Wynne Jones and Wyrm, respectively))
I am delighted to notice that my companions are charming, intelligent people whose names I am having difficulty keeping apart. (possibly one of the symptoms of being on my second pint of Shoggoth’s Old Peculiar)
I’ve already done a listing of some of my preferred works in a prior thread, so instead, I’m going to drop a couple of recommendations for works I haven’t seen mentioned.
McLendon’s Syndrome by Robert Frezza: the best thing I’ve read from Frezza. Not a serious book, and you have to be in favor of puns, but it connected with me. Out of print, but worth grabbing a second hand copy.
The “JAG in space” series by John G Hemry: This is a mil-SF series. Not a series about war in space. The military in question is the US Naval service, with expanded duties to space, and minimally changed naval traditions and regulations. The expected audience skews YA, but I don’t think it lacks as a read for adults. You can get the ebooks from Baen.
The March North by Graydon Saunders: This is a qualified recommendation, I think that this book will be thoroughly enjoyed by some of the fans of Glen Cook’s Black Company. It is set in a world dominated by powerful magicians, and follows a brief military campaign defending a somewhat civilized and democratic polity against one of the various mage dominated organizations around it. You can get a free sample of it from google books, or purchase the ebook from there.
I haven’t read the book yet, but thinking about storing fine porcelain on a vessel that might shift violently in certain conditions makes me think of possible technical solutions, such as foam sleeves, or a foam block with item-shaped cutouts.
Or perhaps even updates to materials technology that allows the formation of non-brittle porcelain.
“She dropped a beautiful and delicate-seeming teacup on the hard floor, where it bounced and chimed like a little bell.”
Under the same caveats Kurt Busiek gave (briefly: I don’t have a Top Ten, but here are some recommendations), and completely off-the-cuff:
Stephen King, It – I maintain that this is horror/SF, but explaining why would be a spoiler. Long, but well worth the read. See the movie AFTER reading the book; it leaves too much out.
Tom Holt, Flying Dutch – And if you like this, he’s got lots more like it.
Jasper Fforde, Shades of Grey – Put the handcuffs down. Post-apoc story where vision determines social class.
Robert A. Heinlein, Double Star and The Door Into Summer – Dated, yes, but worthy all the same. Fun stuff that rewards careful reading.
Simon R. Green, Shadows Fall – What happens to forgotten legends?
Arthur C. Clarke, any short story collection – Master of the craft. Who else could fit the longest short story ever written onto a single page? Pressed for one title, I’ll go with Tales from the “White Hart”.
Spider Robinson, Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon – A wonderful collection, and perhaps one of my favorite settings of all time.
Larry Niven, N-Space – A sampler may be cheating, but any collection will do… especially if it features Draco’s Tavern. (Despite the last three mentions, I don’t drink.)
For a tenth title, I’ll go with David Weber’s On Basilisk Station – it’s good, character-driven, military SF. Ann Leckie’s Ancillary Justice is better, I think, but more demanding; Weber is an easier way to get your feet wet.
Owlmirror: I suspect that the Radchaai would disdain non-brittle porcelain. I can’t point at anything which would back this up (I’m not saying there isn’t a justification from the books, but nothing springs to recollection), but their culture feels like one where the fragility of the china adds to its value.
Ah, we talking books and top tens 🙂
Some wonderful lists above – some of them made me remember things I had not read since… forever.
Here is my list:
1. Foundation – Asimov
2. The Lions of Al-Rassan – Guy Gavriel Kay
3. The Man in the High Castle – Dick
4. Solaris – Lem
5. Red Mars (the whole trilogy actually) – Kim Stanley Robinson
6. Hard to Be a God – Arkady and Boris Strugatsky
7. Beggars in Spain – Kress
8. The End of Eternity – Asimov
9. Cyteen – Cherryh
10. Doomsday Book – Willis
Special mention of something that is not a novel: Tales of Pirx the Pilot (Lem).
@MickeyFinn Oh, hey, cool to see “The March North” listed!
Hi Everyone,
I haven’t really read much science fiction since I was but a wee lad, but through all this puppy nonsense I kept seeing a recurring set of titles float by, so I picked up Ancillary Justice. Positive outcomes and all that, eh?
So I’m about halfway through and here’s a short, incomplete and hopefully not too spoilery list of things I have to suspend my disbelief about in order to enjoy the story (and so far, I am enjoying the story immensely)
* FTL travel
* Multiple alien species
* A galaxy-spanning Imperium that has ruled under one emperor for over 3 Millenia
* Oh yeah, that emperor has thousands of bodies and exists pretty much everywhere at once
* Spaceships that think
* Hollowed out humans that act as the ship’s appendages, hundreds at a time.
* Cybernetic implants capable of shielding their owners from almost any projectile weapon known to man.
So I find it so. highly. amusing. that CHINA and it’s ability to be stored onboard a city-sized living ship is what the discussions of this series has turned to around here.
Anyway, cheers, and thanks to file770 for hosting the discussion.
Only ten?
The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula K. Le Guin
Creatures of Light and Darkness by Roger Zelazny
Protector by Larry Niven
Childhood’s End by Arthur C. Clarke
Kes’Rith: The Faded Sun by C.J. Cherryh
The Zero Stone by Andre Norton
Primary Inversion by Catherine Asaro
Pebble in the Sky by Isaac Asimov
The Long Night by Poul Anderson
Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner
Lost count and am probably missing some, but wanted to post this- happy to find out that I’m not the only person who has ever heard of Frezza.
Civil Campaign – Lois Bujold
Curse of Chalion – Lois Bujold
Nightwatch/Tiffany Aching Series – Terry Pratchett
Lord of Light – Roger Zelazny
Sunshine – Robin McKinley
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress/Starship Troopers/Double Star – Robert Heinlein
Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox – Barry Hughart
A Small Colonial War – Robert Frezza
Footfall/The Mote In God’s Eye – Niven & Pournelle
Redwombat: its one of those tricky ones to recommend, since I think the reaction will either be love it, or bounce right off it. (for good reason, it is not an easy read, and its really not everyone’s cup of tea)