Canterbury Tails 5/27

Aka Mansfield Puppy Park

The wisdom of crowds is supplied by Ruth Davies, Adam-Troy Castro, Nancy Lebovitz, Gabriel McKee, Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Lyda Morehouse, L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright, Alexandra Erin, Vox Day, JDZ, Lis Carey, Joe Sherry, Lisa J. Goldstein, Rebekah Golden, Joseph Brassey, John Scalzi, Katya Czaja, plus less identifiable others. (Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editors of the day rcade and Kary English.)

Ruth Davies on The Hippo Collective

“Taking a Literary Step Backwards: the Hugo Awards 2015” – May 24

This scandal is clearly worrying; such regressive views placed upon particular literary genres, such as science fiction and fantasy, must have implications for other genres, and the larger literary field. Literature is key in its power to evolve and combat the oppression of minority groups, by allowing a voice and platform (although being well heard often unfortunately relies on getting ‘discovered’ and subsequently published). Right-wing action is also more concerning when involved with such canonising activity as literary awards. Awards often help shape the (Western) literary canon, which contains a lot of the West’s most famous and widely read literature. Therefore right-wing attitudes, such as those of the ‘Sad Puppies’ and ‘Rabid Puppies’, merely blocks diversification of the canon – discouraging the cultural change that the West still desperately needs.

However, the question still remains: how do we overcome such regressive strategies in literature? The democratic fan vote should appear the fairest and least problematic strategy, yet as seen, it has its fundamental drawbacks.

 

Font Folly

“Tom Puppy and the Visitor from Planet Clueless” – May 27

A Sad Puppy/Rabid Puppy supporter posted an op-ed on the men’s rights site Return of the Kings (he links to and heavily paraphrases one of the Sad Puppy podcasts), “How Female-Dominated Publishing Houses Are Censoring Male Authors” that is a great example of several of the issues that I believe underpin the Sad Puppy position. Never mind that the statistics show that men make up more than 65% of the annual publishing lists of most of the publishing houses, and male-authored books comprise more the 80% of books reviewed in the major publications, this guy is here to tell us that men are being censored!

 

Adam Troy-Castro on Facebook – May 27

(Sigh) No, I am not saying, nor am I ever going to say, that the organizers of the Sad Puppy nonsense need to be “boycotted” for what they have done and said, and I am most certainly not saying that the writers they advocated for need to be boycotted for the actions of those who supported them.

This is after all me, the guy who has made such a regular habit of arguing for separating the art from the artist, most of the time in more extreme circumstances. If I can distinguish between Bill Cosby and “Bill Cosby,” if I can praise the occasional film by Roman Polanski, if I can struggle in vain to discuss the filmic achievements of Woody Allen without being slammed by the same stuff that artistic discussions of Woody Allen are always slammed with, if I can further regularly wax enthusiastic about work by writers like Stephen Hunter and Dan Simmons who exist so far from me on the political spectrum that we are almost on separate rainbows, then why the hell would I tell anybody to boycott the work of {Gay-Basher McManly-Nuts}, to name one, just because I think it’s fun to summarize his persona as {Gay-Basher McManly-Nuts}? Ditto with {Hurt-Feelings Harry}, {Steely-Eyed Rage-Monster}, Beale The Galactic Zero, and the rest of that crew. I mock them with abandon, but want *none* of them subjected to organized boycott of any kind.

I have said nothing advocating otherwise, and anybody who represents me as having said anything of the kind is, in precise measurement, a goddamned liar.

 

Nancy Lebovitz in a comment on Making Light – May 27

At Balticon, someone asked Jo Walton about the Hugos at her GoH speech, and she said that ideally, the Hugos are a gesture of love and respect, and campaigning for the Hugos is like persistently asking your partner whether they love you. It just isn’t the same.

 

Doctor Science on Obsidian Wings

“Problems with the Hugo Nominations for Pro and Fan Artist” – May 28

[Doctor Science vetted the sample art in the Hugo Voters Packet and says she discovered most of the material from Nick Greenwood and Steve Stiles came from another eligibility year, and that among all artists she traced 14 items to periods before 2014.]

I’ll stop here for the moment, and go on later to talk about things like: how I’m going to vote, what I think the problems with the categories are, and start some ideas about how to fix them.

For a start, though, I urge my fellow voters to click around the 2014 Pro and 2014 Fan collections at Hugo Eligible Art, to get a sense of what your baseline should be for comparison.

 

Gabriel McKee on SF Gospel

“The Way the Future Never Was” – May 27

For a lot of us, SF’s ability to deal with current problems in metaphorical terms is the whole point. It’s why we got interested in the genre, and why we’ve stuck with it—because there will always be new quesitons, and new angles on them. Does Brad Torgersen really want SF to be a genre about space ships and ray guns with no resonance with current society? Does he really want SF authors to abandon the time-honored tradition of exploring social issues with SFnal metaphor? That sounds to me like an SF that’s afraid of the future.

 

Gabriel McKee on SF Gospel

“The Way the Future Never Was: A Visual Appendix” – May 27

To get a better idea of Brad Torgersen’s problem with today’s science fiction, let’s take a look at some good, old-fashioned, reliably-packaged SF….

The Space Merchants cover COMP

Hey, this one looks fun. It’s got space ships and all kinds of stuff. Wait, what? It’s about the evils of capitalism? Bait and switch!

 

https://twitter.com/pnh/status/603691400895582209

 

Lyda Morehouse on Bitter Empire

“Real Talk About John Scalzi, Vox Day, And That Big Big Book Deal” – May 27

Vox Day (Theodore Beale), if you recall, is the mastermind behind the Rabid Puppies (the super-far right organizers of this year’s Hugo debacle.) Beale apparently also sees himself as Scalzi’s rival. Beale has all sorts of “hilarious” nicknames for Scalzi….

So, as you can imagine, Beale’s head is near ready to explode.

He starts off with a simple report of the deal, but then it takes a hard right into God knows what. Beale says that Scalzi’s deal can really only be expected because Tor, his publisher, really doesn’t have any big name authors in its stables beyond Scazli, except maybe one other, and, more importantly, “It’s not as if the award-winning Jo Walton or the award-winning Catharine (sic) Asaro or any of their other award-winning authors sell enough books to support all the SJW non-SF they keep trying to push on an unwilling public.”

What.

Whoa, ladies, that was almost a compliment there for being all award-win-y, but nope. According to Beale, the only reason Walton and Asaro write is push the SJW (Social Justice Warrior) “non-SF” on all of us non-willing readers.

 

JDZ on Never Yet Melted

“John Scalzi Gets $3.4 Million Publishing Deal” – May 27

Scalzi has alienated a significant portion of his readership with sanctimonious hoplophobic blog posts (example) and by lining up with the Social Justice Warriors in the fighting over the Hugo Awards. My guess is that his backlisting powers will be declining.

 

L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright conducts interview on Superversive SF

“Interview with Hugo Fan Writer Nominee: Dave Freer!” – May 27

7) How did you come up with the idea for your current nominated story?

Eating cheese late at night. It was that or my concern for the state of a genre I love. I happen think all nice boys and girls should love sf and fantasy (and find sf and fantasy to love). I think all nasty boys and girls should too. I am delighted if the rare, nasty, odd, and possibly puke purple creatures crawling out of the East River do too. I just find it worrying when the latter group seems to have become so dominant that the rest lose interest and go and pursue other forms of entertainment and escapism.

 

Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write

“Of Dinosaurs, Legos, and Impossible Hypotheticals” – May 27

There’s another work nominated this year that has stirred similar questions in a more limited way, perhaps more limited because the Dramatic Presentation categories are seen as less serious and crucial in a literary award than the literary categories, and perhaps because as a Sad Puppy pick it is taken less seriously to begin with.

The work in question is The Lego Movie, which contains a couple of scenes near the end that make explicit the implicit framing device for a movie about Lego characters in a world made out of Lego blocks: it’s all a child, playing with toys. It is this moment, in my opinion, that elevates The Lego Movie from merely being charming and fun to actually pretty sublimely brilliant. It explained so many of the odd quirks of characterization and storytelling earlier in the film.

I mean, it changed the movie’s version of Batman from “weirdly out of character, but okay, it’s funny” to “…that’s freaking brilliant” because it wasn’t Batman as adult comic book fans understand him but Batman seen through the eyes of a child, with way more focus on the cool factor of everything and of course he has the coolest girlfriend and of course even the grimdark angst seems kind of fun…

 

Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Hugo Awards 2015: Best Novella” – May27

This is how I am voting in the Best Novella category. Of course, I merely offer this information regarding my individual ballot for no particular reason at all, and the fact that I have done so should not be confused in any way, shape, or form with a slate or a bloc vote, much less a direct order by the Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil to his 367 Vile Faceless Minions or anyone else.

 

  1. “One Bright Star to Guide Them”
  2. “Big Boys Don’t Cry”
  3. “The Plural of Helen of Troy”
  4. “Pale Realms of Shade”
  5. “Flow”

 

Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library

“Rat Queens, by Kurtis J. Wiebe (writer), Roc Upchurch (illustrator)” – May 27

ratqueens

Booze-guzzling, death-dealing, battle maidens-for-hire.

This is so not my thing. The art is excellent. The writing is quite good. There’s a plot–but here’s where I run into trouble.

 

Joe Sherry on Adventures In Reading

“Thoughts on the Hugo Award Nominees: Related Work” – May 27

Letters from Gardner: Lou Antonelli’s collection is an interesting one. It’s part memoir, part short story collection, part writing advice, part I have no idea. It shows Antonelli’s development as a writer, some of the revision progress, and how influential some of those early rejections from Gardner Dozois were. It’s not necessarily my cuppa, but it’s not bad.

No Award: No Award continues to rear its ugly head. I read half of Wright’s Transhuman and Subhuman collection (approximately), and I bounced off of it. His essay on fiction writing directed at a nonfiction writing friend was fairly solid, but I had issues with the rest of what I read – mostly in that I disagree with much of what Wright has to say and his essay writing style does little to encourage me to continue reading even despite my disagreement. I can’t get into specifics here because each time I bounced off an essay, I moved onto the next. That said, he’s not wrong that Ulysses is a terrible book.

On the other hand, Wisdom from my Internet is truly a terrible book that has no place anywhere near this ballot. I can understand, more or less, why people may have enjoyed / appreciated Wright’s collection. I’m not his audience, but many people likely are. Michael Williamson’s collection of non-sequiturs and jokes is sort of organized by topic, but most are not at all entertaining and what, exactly it has to do with the field of science fiction and / or fantasy is completely beyond me. But it isn’t so much the lack of relation to SFF that gets me, it’s how bad the jokes are and how disinteresting the whole thing is. I may not think that Wright’s collection is worthy of an Award, but I don’t think Williamson’s should have been considered for nomination. I may never understand how or why it was….

 

Adult Onset Atheist

“There can be only one SNARL” – May 27

Where did such a foolish name as “Sad Puppies” come from? Larry apparently likes cutesy names; he was co-founder of a gunshop he named “Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns”. The gunshop went under, but the enduring flikr record of it shows racks of plastic-furnitured AK-47s, and glass cases with handguns lovingly laid out for display. “Sad Puppies” is a name derived from the kind of immature humor that wants to be irony when it grows up.

The idea for “Sad Puppies” pre-dates the Hugo kerfluffle. On Larry’s blog one of the first posts he tagged with “Sad Puppies” is a reactionary commentary-style rebuttal to a September 2009 POTUS speech to a joint session of congress, and the next is a similar reactionary commentary to the 2010 SOTU. So “Sad Puppies” in Larry’s mind is political in the strictest sense of the word. Yet somehow everyone else is really political people –whether they say so or not- and poor Larry is just trying to give his embattled writers the only chances available because he perceives them as having been shut out.  And the only way to get “his” writers a fair shake is to shut out any competing works that might try to leverage some unfair literati elitist advantage by not being crappy.

The reason the Sad puppies can pee all over the Hugo process is because of complacency in fandom. When I talk about complacency I am mostly talking about myself. I ask myself “How can you make good nominations when you haven’t read more than a dozen SF novellas this year?” The nice voters packet provides a guided reading list; the trufans have done the heavy lifting. So far this year there are over 9,000 voting members of worldcon, and membership is open for a few more days. For $40 you can get a vote and a nice electronic voting packet; unfortunately many of the stories in it are crap. Some of the Hugo nominations this year received less than 30 votes. There needs to be some way of bridging the complacency gap so the large numbers of fans who care enough to vote for a Hugo are presented with a couple choices worth voting for.  Perhaps that means I need to get off my rear and wade through the vast number of published SF/F stories to make recommendations and vote during the nomination process instead of waiting until after the nominations list is published.

 

Lisa J. Goldstein on theinferior4

“Let Me Explain… No, There Is Too Much. Let Me Sum Up.” – May 27

One of my questions when I started was why the Puppies chose these specific stories.  And after all that reading, I have to say that I still don’t know, and the statements of the Puppies themselves don’t really help.  Larry Correia wanted to nominate stories that would “make literati heads explode,” stories with right-wing themes that would anger SJWs (Super-Judgmental Werewolves?) when they appeared on the ballot.  But we’re very used to narratives of straight white men doing straight white manly things, and even seeing those stories nominated for Hugos.  It’s all just business as usual.  I don’t know about other people’s crania, but my head stayed firmly on my shoulders while I was reading — though it did slip toward the desk a few times, my eyes closing, thinking, Ho hum, another one …

Correia also rejected “boring message fiction” — but then how to explain John C. Wright’s Catholic apologia, or Tom Kratman’s push for more and more weaponry?  And his final explanation was that people were mean to him at a convention.  Okay, but why these stories?  Was putting us through all of this his idea of revenge?

 

Rebekah Golden

“2015 Hugo Awards Best Short Story: Reviewing J C Wright” – May 26

This is a parable told in the style of Kipling or of old Buddhist tales. It takes a mythology well known to the author and extends it into a second mirroring mythology like Zeno’s Paradox applied to christianity. It was clever and written well, if in a pre-Hemingway style, but overall not a story for me.

 

Rebekah Golden

“2015 Hugo Awards Best Fan Artist: Reviewing N Aalto” – May 27

Ninni had two pieces included in the Hugo Voters packet. Both were very well drawn and nicely colored. Based on her online portfolio I like her style and find her work pleasing to the eye. I suspect there are some in jokes I don’t get but that’s the nature of being the best fan at something. In short, nicely done.

 

Katya Czaja

“Hugo Award: Professional Artist” – May 27

Ranking Julie Dillon stood out as the clear winner in this category.

1) Julie Dillon
2) Nick Greenwood
3) Allan Pollack
4) No Award
5) Carter Reid
6) Kirk DouPonce

 

 

https://twitter.com/KosmoATD/status/603582414846300160

 


Discover more from File 770

Subscribe to get the latest posts to your email.

520 thoughts on “Canterbury Tails 5/27

  1. Kate on May 28, 2015 at 2:30 am said:
    A hoplophobe is someone with an irrational fear of kangaroos.

    I thought it was someone with an irrational fear of those Rocky-Horror-reject costumes in “300.”

  2. @Standback:

    Honestly, I think that’s a depressingly politicized – and, to use your word, simplistic – reading of the story. Because no, the central issue of “If You Were A Dinosaur” is not even remotely “hate crimes and bigotry.” That is not in any way “the message” or “the entire thrust.” Obviously, you’ll read it however you want, but your reading ignores virtually all of the text.

    The story is about love turned to grief. That is its entire thrust, and nearly all of the story is about communicating one of these two emotions. That is what virtually all of the story is about. And what makes the story so appealing to those who like it, is how suddenly and naturally it whiplashes from charming whimsy into heartbreak. That – not “hate crimes” – is the story’s appeal.

    You could change that one sentence so that the protagonist’s fiance is beaten up by, I dunno, irate soccer fans, or hit by a drunk driver, or by angry drunks who mistook him for someone else, and the story would work almost exactly the same way. It would have just as much impact, it would feel just as heartbreaking to the people who liked the story.

    Finally, although I don’t think “Dinosaur” is anywhere near as political as you read it, I can think of a lot of works that contain political views I dislike or even loathe, but that I still enjoyed. I think (hope) that most readers are able to enjoy works they don’t entirely agree with.

  3. Brian Z: Can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d admit someone who’s put their novel Heart of Ceres up on Amazon into the science fiction clubhouse.

    I’m happy to welcome anyone who’s interested in talking about SFF novels they’ve actually read, rather than simply making bogus claims or posting excerpts from 1-star Amazon reviews on books they haven’t read.

    But the continual posting of blatant misrepresentations and false statements under the excuse of “English is not my first language” — not so much.

  4. This hoplophobe hails from Australia, and, as someone with Bipolar II Disorder and a DEX of 9, should not be allowed in the same room with a deadly weapon, even if she wanted to enter one.

  5. @Barry, I agree with you, but I think Standback has a point, especially given that there are some people for whom anything is a message or an outrage. Look at the screeds that James May – who I’m sometimes convinced that at least some iterations *must* be a bot of some sort – posts in various sites.

    It’s the whole “everything looks like a nail” thing. If you go looking for things to be offended by, by the gods you’ll find it.

  6. I’m sure I’m not the first person to point out that James May of Top Gear has recently become unemployed. Hmm…

    I jest, of course. Top Gear’s James May is a gentleman.

  7. @Ann – (on kangaroos) “They’re mean little buggers”

    Little is not a word I would use, esp regarding the reds.

  8. “Little is not a word I would use, esp regarding the reds.”

    Yeah but you have to watch the wallabies too. Those actually live down the road from me, rather than several thousand kilometres away in the desert.

    Don’t get between a macropod and a bag of feed, is all I’m saying.

  9. There’s an implied accusation here.

    Yes, that some people – some very not very nice people – attack gay people, women, minorities. Actually that isn’t an accusation it is a fact. It happens.

    Let’s change Dinosaur My Love and instead of “five blustering men soaked in gin and malice” it was a terrorist bomb by Islamic fundamentalists. Well yes, there is a sort of political message there and we’ve sort of shifted it but our altered Dinosaur tale is still a long way from an objectionable anti-Muslim screed that demonizes a religious group. It would be madness to pretend that there aren’t people who are grieving the deaths or severe injuries caused by terrible crimes by terrible people.

    Ah, I’m getting cranky again. I was cranky in the last thread and I was unintentionally rude to at least one person so I might stop at this point.

    OK one more bit. I read a book by John Hannity (he of Fox News fame) because I really do read stuff I disagree with deeply. And he was going on and on about a flaw he saw in liberals. And it was this: liberals supposedly don’t believe in evil or that liberals are scared or reluctant to call things evil or object to evil or something. Well, shit, there is a pile of violence that goes on that is targeted at women, at gay people, at all sorts of people who can be marginalized and targeted and it should never be ‘political’ to call it evil. And I don’t think US conservatives should get upset when people on the left do what they say we should be doing and calling evil “evil”.

    Oh and if there is a section of the right that doesn’t like people thinking that they are racist, homphobic or apologists for domestic violence then they really, really shouldn’t throw tantrums when people rightly point out how aful those things are.

  10. A story about a dogmatic preacher whipping up a frenzied mob may have the message “don’t form a frenzied mob,” but often such as story can be read as being anti-religion.

    Yes, but “Dinosaur” is not a story about a hate crime. Yes, the hate crime is an incident which sets the plot in motion, but…

    “Spiderman” is not a story about the criminal who shot Uncle Ben. Ben’s death is an essential incident without which the story could not have taken place. And Ben’s death reflects some very dubious ideas about how likely it is that a citizen walking on the street will be shot to death by a stranger. But anyone who says they can’t read “Spiderman” because it’s a story about a mugging and they’re sick of mugging stories is projecting their own hang-ups onto the text, not giving the text a fair reading.

    I do understand what you’re saying about the implicit logic of story events. “Dinosaur” depicts a world in which hate crimes can happen and can be tragic. And Spider-Man depicts a world in which random street murders can happen and can be tragic. But that’s not remotely what either story is about. And it’s something that any reasonable reader – even one who thinks the prevalence of hate crimes and/or random murders is exaggerated – should be able to overlook.

  11. Brad Torgersen must be very disappointed by Kate Paulk. The cover of Ancillary Justice clearly indicates it’s science fiction and that’s all that counts according to him.

  12. @ http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2015/05/problems-with-the-hugo-nominations-for-pro-and-fan-artist.html

    That is interesting. Namely the prospect of the discussion of what sets a work apart. For example in the case of the “Neverborn” – to me it appears to be a charcoal drawing. Hence, after finishing the work on paper; you spray it to maintain it, and then proceed to either scan it or take a picture for a digital version. (Charcoal drawings are easily ruined by time.) Thus can we consider the most likely digitally coloured work as an entity of its own, or is it still the same picture as the earlier charcoal drawing?

    Regrettably the images provided do not enable me to inspect the details, nor the actual distances within the image. Sometimes artists do decide to recreate their own work from scratch.

    Thus with the infornation available, with the decisions between a work of charcoal and one that has been coloured. I would lean towards the works being seperate.

    Though I suppose I should give a disclaimer how I have done charcoal drawings of my own, and then later coloured those, and I do consider both to be their own distinct works due to their seperate techniques and chalenges.

    On the subject of “Kirk DouPonce”: Why is there a red ‘x’ on the day novel, if it was published in 2014? Was the image published elsewhere during 2013?

    “The definition of what is a “professional” publication is somewhat technical. A professional publication either (1) provided at least a quarter the income of any one person or, (2) was owned or published by any entity which provided at least a quarter the income of any of its staff and/or owner.”

    Thus the question on the green ‘x’ marks is as follows, are you sure that someone has not already paid for those works in question?

    Well, I guess that is all I can bother about this topic.

  13. @Yarrow: read that story the other day!

    Tiptree was a masterful storyteller at her best.

  14. @Snowcrash:

    I understand that. But it seems to me that when you say “If you go looking for things to be offended by, by the gods you’ll find it,” you’re agreeing with my point, not with Standback.

    I agree that many people who read “Dinosaur,” especially after the Puppies made “Dinosaur” the Symbol Of All That Is Evil And Corrupt, read it looking for an excuse to be offended. But that is not a reasonable or fair way to read a story, as I suspect you’d agree.

    Standback seems to be saying that reading “Dinosaur” as a purely political story whose “entire thrust” is about “hate crimes” is a fair reading of the story. I don’t deny that some readers have read the story that way; I’m just calling that an overly politicized reading of the story which ignores what the actual thrust of the story is.

  15. What’s that, Tuomas? Beale suffers from *what*, you say? Are you sure? Good heavens. That flaming sword will be useful then, won’t it.

  16. @Barry: “… especially after the Puppies made “Dinosaur” the Symbol Of All That Is Evil And Corrupt”

    Nah bro that’s still Scalzi.

    Also, I completely agree that reading Dinosaur as a message fiction of the back of that one line is certainly not a fair reading by any means, but like I said, these are not people interested in a fair reading. They’re keen on ginning (heh) up the old Perpetual Outrage Machine.

  17. @Barry Deutsch:

    First of all, I’m definitely open to other interpretations, and I see what you’re saying. I should also point out that I, personally, enjoyed the story very much – mostly precisely for the reasons you’re saying. For a short-short, it portrays grief and loss and rage in a beautiful and remarkable way, and for these, I enjoyed the story very much.

    I do think it’s fairly reasonable that, in a story about grief, the cause of the grief is an important element in the story. The cause certainly isn’t the story’s strength, and it’s not what the story spends it focus on. But it’s still at the crux of the story.

    You could change that one sentence so that the protagonist’s fiance is beaten up by, I dunno, irate soccer fans, or hit by a drunk driver, or by angry drunks who mistook him for someone else, and the story would work almost exactly the same way.

    Which brings us back to the always-present question of: what does the author mean by their choice of characters and scenarios? Does the use of a politicized element make the story politicized? Could that element have been swapped out, and if so – does it mean anything that it wasn’t? Is the use of a “non-default” element significant because divergence from the default is necessary, or is it part of the larger effort to chip away at mainstream understanding of what “default” is?

    I don’t think I agree with you about the story working in exactly the same way. Because here’s the thing: the ending of the story is about rage and vengeance, and about the feeling of helplessness. And that’s a twist, because until that point the story was odd and idiosyncratic and almost whimsical. It’s only in the revelation of rage that we understand the true motive behind the fantasy: the moment of helplessness, and the desire to lash back.

    So it couldn’t have been, say, disease, or an accident (where mourning and grief would have been just as apt). It would have been hard to swing with any case where the person got himself into a dangerous situation to begin with, because you need the innocence and the helplessness. And really, in order for the rage and hate to be relateable – you need it to be somebody that it’s OK to hate.

    That narrows your choices down considerably. If it wasn’t a short-short, if it wasn’t the type of story that it is, you could build up character and backstory and have a perfectly legitimate villain, an individual who was cruel and hate-worthy. But that wouldn’t have worked here.

    You need somebody villainous enough for your readers to instantly (A) accept a murderous attack from, and (B) be willing to hate.

    Off the top of my head? If you’re left-wing, you default to hate crime. If you’re right-wing, I think you default to terrorists.

    Would you like the story if it turned out the guy had been killed by terrorists? Or would that send it in a different direction for you?

  18. Obviously someone is unclear on the concept of replying to a blog post on the blog post they’re replying to, where that blog post resides, rather than on a blog where the blog post resideth not.

  19. @Nyq:

    Yes, that some people – some very not very nice people – attack gay people, women, minorities. Actually that isn’t an accusation it is a fact. It happens.

    Let’s change Dinosaur My Love and instead of “five blustering men soaked in gin and malice” it was a terrorist bomb by Islamic fundamentalists.

    Ha! Yes, I got to exactly the same place by a different route with my comment. I don’t think I’ve ever been comment-ninja’d to that extent!

    Again, an important point – I think the point I’m trying to make all along here, although I confess I may have lost track:
    I don’t think anybody is denying hate crimes happen.
    Some people – of which I am not one – do argue about how frequently they happen; to whom; under what circumstances. They say that the threat of hate crimes is exaggerated, for political/ideological gain – not very different from how the threat of terrorism, for example, is used to bolster right-wing ideology.

    All I’m saying – really all I’m saying – is that I do read “Dinosaur” as an explicitly political work. This should not be a controversial statement for a crowd who know that “everything is political”. I think “Dinosaur” was more overtly political than most — which I don’t see as a criticism, just a bit of categorization. Specifically, what I am arguing about is the “it’s just one sentence” claim – I think it’s much more than that. Even in this case, where it’s politics I share — perhaps especially in this case — I do not like the “it isn’t really political” argument.

    If you’re all still with me, I see it as no surprise that an overtly political work gets a negative reaction from people hostile to those specific politics. That, I think, is all.

  20. Some people – of which I am not one – do argue about how frequently they happen; to whom; under what circumstances. They say that the threat of hate crimes is exaggerated, for political/ideological gain – not very different from how the threat of terrorism, for example, is used to bolster right-wing ideology.

    Sure but you are answering your own point:
    X happens (given that X does actually happen) is not much of a political message
    X happens at this frequency (when the frequency of X happening) is arguably a political message.
    DInosaur was the first one.
    That deeply political work “Midsomer Murders” is the second*

    [*this is again a joke]*
    [**not entirely a joke]

  21. Although perhaps a difference is: I do suspect that if it had been terrorism rather than a hate-crime, it would not have enjoyed the same popularity.

    (I know I would have enjoyed it less — I don’t think it matches the rest of the piece, but laying that argument out would take more literary navel-gazing than I have time for right at the moment, so…)

  22. Standback: If you’re all still with me, I see it as no surprise that an overtly political work gets a negative reaction from people hostile to those specific politics.

    It’s just that the fact that there are actually a significant number of people who are hostile to the idea that “gays shouldn’t be beaten up” is so incredibly saddening and horrifying.

  23. I am certainly looking forward to next year’s puppy slate of books that in no way startle the reader with unexpected content:
    “Book With Rockets In It and More Rockets and Aliens”
    “Manly Men With Ray Guns and Aliens With Different Rayguns”
    “Women With Poorly Designed Spacesuits and, Also, Rayguns”
    Should be good!

  24. Speaking of hilarious misinterpretations of If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love y the Puppies, this post by Sarah Hoyt is highly recommended – If You Were a Grown-Up, My Love .

    Basically her claim is that since the bad guys in the story are supposedly manual laborers (which is actually never mentioned in this story itself, but it’s apparently obvious for enlightened mindreading critics like Hoyt), Swirsky hates all manual laborers and has never actually talked to such a person in her life. Oh, and Marxism is mentioned a lot, of course, wouldn’t be a Hoyt post without Marxist strawmen appearing in it.

    It’s also quite hilarious how she goes on and on how since the manual laborers which she knew when she was growing up were cool guys and wouldn’t beat anyone, that means that no manual laborer would ever beat up someone in a manner described in the story. Because apparently all manual laborers in the whole world are the same as the ones she knew growing up.

  25. If you’re all still with me, I see it as no surprise that an overtly political work gets a negative reaction from people hostile to those specific politics.</em.

    yeah but they say they AREN'T hostile to that particular aspect

    All I’m saying – really all I’m saying – is that I do read “Dinosaur” as an explicitly political work. This should not be a controversial statement for a crowd who know that “everything is political”.

    Well it is controversial if you are saying it is more political or more distinctly political than other works.

  26. All this talk about SFF is well and good, but now that y’all are talking about macropods I’m truly a happy camper.

  27. Nyq, I addressed that in a previous comment.

    Do you think a story about a hero saving a damsel in distress should be immune from criticism over the overall representation of women as being weak and helpless?

  28. It’s just that the fact that there are actually a significant number of people who are hostile to the idea that “gays shouldn’t be beaten up” is so incredibly saddening and horrifying.

    Yes. :-/

  29. /Joe Sherry: That said, he’s not wrong that Ulysses is a terrible book. Since you asked for it,’

    If we ever reach a climactic roundup post, it’s going to have to be called So Long And Thanks For All The Filks.

  30. @ http://sfgospel.typepad.com/sf_gospel/2015/05/the-way-the-future-never-was-a-visual-appendix.html

    The Forever War: A guy sitting with his weapon resting on his lap, while the backround reveals a multitude of clocks. The tittle of the work is “The Forever War.” I do not know if you have any military backround or experiences, but there is a whole lot of waiting to be done when you are in the ‘army.’ Waiting for something to happen. Waiting to reach somewhere. Waiting in silence while your mind is left to wonder what shall happen. Thus to me the cover art got the waiting part right, and makes me wait for something realistic to read.

    The Space Merchants: On the backround we have a world on fire. Pitch black rockets, one of wich is taking off with the ‘supports’ still attached to it. The face of the man is either frozen in mid scream, or his last breath of air. The tiny men behind him seem to be running away from something. I am not expecting a comedic space adventure with a splash of romance and swashbuckling.

    Planet of the Apes? Is it the novel, or the movie you refer to? I guess it is the movie, but you could have still linked cover images.

    The Left Hand of Darkness: A planet of ice, with two faces sticking out. One feminine and the other masculine with both attached to the same head. Is that what remains of a two-faced alien “Statue of Liberty?” Anyhow, since the head or pillar with the two faces is not standing straight, the feminine face appears more dominant. Right, so we got an ice world and two faces of opposite human genders. Sounds like stuff about genders on an ice world.

    On the first issue of Galaxy: Well, they appear quite frank about what they publish… but are they still publishing their brand of science fiction? Oh, not since 1980? Hmn… what was the best recent ‘Science Fiction’ series on television? I think most will agree when I bring up something called; Firefly, basically nothing but a western in space!

    Gateway: We have spacecraft flying away from planets. Spacecraft that kind of look like luxury yacths, or just basically boats. There is a strange red line, but I have no idea what that is, since it does not appear to come from a gun of any kind. Oh, it is the engine trail for a third ship not on the cover. Thus, ships going away from planets, which means I would expect stuff to take place on those spaceships that design wise are not military on the first glance.

    The Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe; bunch of kids who surround a lion. Witch on the background with a stick raised ready to slap someone… with other random objects placed all around. Following the children’s book art conventions, those are expectedly parts of the story. Is it about neverland found through a wardrope?

    Star Trek: Should I provide links to the Star Trek episodes and scenes that were not about racial prejudice and the horrors of war?

    Now, as for what Brad was talking; a story should not be just prejudice and the horrors of war. Although, both do make wonderful aspects of a story.

  31. Stefan: Wow. That’s actually a mind-bogglingly specific example of how somebody takes a somewhat-political element and interprets it as a direct, deliberate attack.

    When people see politics as all-out war, than anything remotely political must obviously be an all-out attack :-/

  32. Standback, I don’t deny that there is some political content in “Dinosaur,” although I think you’re exaggerating how much is there and how much it matters. But in my original comment, I wasn’t questioning the claim that Dinosaur has any political content at all; I was questioning the claim that Dinosaur is a good example of the “problem” of sf/f stories being “too liberal.”

    I agree that you can’t just swap out the drunk bigots and replace them with just anything; as you say, they have to be replaced by someone who is blameworthy, someone who can be hated, for the story to work. (Which I think all three of my exampled did.)

    I don’t know whether or not the use of violent bigots was the “default choice” in this case or not; maybe it was, maybe Swirsky had some other reason.

    But let’s say – instead – that the main character’s fiance was a marathon runner who was put into a coma due to the Boston Marathon bombing, or some similar random act of terrorism. I don’t think that would change my reading of the story at all. None of the important content of the story – not the love, not the whimsy, not the revenge fantasy, not the realization that revenge would be a terrible idea, not the heartbreak – would be altered at all by that change.

    So yes, in this particular case, it really is just one sentence (or, I guess, just one paragraph). You could change that paragraph without having to change a word of the rest of the story, and both the structure and theme of the story would be basically unchanged. (Suppose the character’s fiance had been a runner put in a coma at the Boston Marathon. Would you no longer enjoy how the story “portrays grief and loss and rage in a beautiful and remarkable way,” in that case?)

    (And this is a bit of a digression, but as I read it, the story is not ultimately a revenge fantasy. In the end, the narrator grows beyond revenge, realizing that her revenge would only be someone else’s tragedy. From the second to last paragraph: “If I laughed, laughed, laughed, I’d eventually feel guilty. I’d promise never to do something like that again. I’d avert my eyes from the newspapers when they showed photographs of the men’s tearful widows and fatherless children, just as they must avert their eyes from the newspapers that show my face.” I’m not implying you disagree with me on this point, I just wanted to mention it.)

  33. Oh well, I cannot bear to type anything more today… Need some fresh air and the birds are singing. Toodles.

  34. It’s also quite hilarious how she goes on and on how since the manual laborers which she knew when she was growing up were cool guys and wouldn’t beat anyone, that means that no manual laborer would ever beat up someone in a manner described in the story.”

    Also, the story never suggests that the men were manual laborers. Hoyt just assumed they must be. Should I conclude from this that Hoyt believes that only manual laborers ever get drunk or violent?

    Swirsky discusses what she intended here:

    I will say that I did not intend “gin” to be a class marker. My primary association with gin is hipsters. I have friends who make their own. (I pictured a college bar when I was writing the story, although I didn’t want that image—or any distinct markers–to be in the story itself.) …

    I did not want the assailants to be marked at all, except that they were into beating people up with flimsy excuses, an activity of which I disapprove.

    So: what can I do? My intent to not be classist isn’t significant. Some of my previous trespasses have been totally unintentional…

    P.S. At first I felt that, since we’re discussing the story and not the author, I didn’t need to disclose that Rachel Swirsky is a good friend of mine. But now I’m beginning to feel odd about not having disclosed that, even though it really shouldn’t make a difference. So, please consider it disclosed. 🙂

  35. So I’ve just caught up this morning, and there are two related points I’d like to make.

    Firstly, the idea that fiction is supposed to meet preconceived expectations is a running gag with the Puppies. In addition to Paulk’s review of AJ and Torgersen’s initial screed when he announced SP3, there is Transhuman and Subhuman where JCW constantly hits us over the head with the idea that reinforcing existing cultural norms, and sticking within well worn archetypes are the purposes of fiction. Bullocks!

    The other is that all fiction worth a tinker’s damn says something. Any fiction worth reading has a message which challenges the reader. It is a combination of authorial intent, their own biases and the context in which they are writing. Being against good stories with a political message is being against good stories. Period. Even the works of Dr. Suess contain a political message.

    On that note, your political message for the day: If You Were a Dinosaur My Love is about a terrorist attack. That is the appropriate word to describe a brutal murder motivated by hate. That is all.

  36. PIMMN : Looks like it’s a dog whistle word, a neologism coined by gun rights activists to label gun control advocates, as if they were motivated by fear.

    I haven’t yet seen anyone outside of that subculture use the word.

    That’s about the size of it. Because, of course, the only reason people would have for disliking things designed to kill people which do, indeed, kill people is irrational phobia.

    Ob10000th for JJ – did you know that Australia has censored children’s programmes? The programme was “Peppa Pig”, produced in the UK, and it was just a single episode where Peppa learned that there was nothing to be scared of and Mr Spider is your friend. In Australia arachnophobia is a sane response to be cultivated in youngsters…

  37. I agree that all stories have a message. In Dinosaurs, for me, the primary message is that our hearts rest on a foundation of tissue, and that everything that is precious to us could be ripped away at a moment’s notice, and joy and love turn to mourning in an instant.

    There’s also an anti-revenge aspect to the story. But that’s less important, in my reading.

    And, distant behind those other two messages – but certainly in there – is the implicit political message of having a major character killed randomly by bigots.

    I agree that all stories have something to say; and I also agree that all stories, intentionally or not, have some political content. But the primary message of a story isn’t ALWAYS political.

  38. Barry Deustch – Thanks for the link, I wasn’t aware Swirsky has responded to that criticism.

    I am not American or British and I had no idea gin is a class marker (at least not in a contemporary setting, if it was some Victorian setting I would probably have caught it), I love drinking gin and tonic and I am certainly no manual laborer or hipster.

  39. Cpaca: In Australia arachnophobia is a sane response to be cultivated in youngsters…

    I’d believe it. I knew someone who’d lived there for a year, and he said the first thing his flatmates taught him was to always shake his shoes or boots upside down before putting them on.

    I went there once on family vacation. We stayed in a very nice fancy house, near the beach. The handtowel apparently fell off the bathroom rack as I finished brushing my teeth and went to bed. The next morning, I walked into the bathroom, saw the towel, and picked it up — and a big black spider the size of a silver dollar fell out and scurried off.

    Trigger Warning for Ophidiophobes and Arachnophobes: Australia’s dangerous animals: the top 30

  40. Now, the Finned-Puppies’ Rockets
    Had delta-shaped fins.
    The Plain-Puppy’s Rockets were all smooth as pins.
    Those fins weren’t so big. They were really so small.
    You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.

Comments are closed.