520 thoughts on “Canterbury Tails 5/27”

1. Dex: That is fair, and well put.

2. Islam is a favorite target these days, though it’s not unusual for targets to include other Christians who they disagree with.

   Especially if you happen to be a gay Christian.

   🙁

3. Wright doesn’t just seem to feel that any judgments of his religious beliefs are persecution. In his Korra post, he said, “You were not content to leave the matter ambiguous, no, but had publicly to announce that you hate your audience, our way of life, our virtues, values, and religion.” He also described the plot resolution as “treason.” Seemingly, any series that he enjoys that later portrays something contrary to his religious values is a sort of persecution.

   It seems like an ethical response to that set of views would be to limit one’s media viewing to works that are explicitly Catholic, but his implication seems to instead be that creators should tailor their works to his beliefs, even if theirs are otherwise. It doesn’t seem to work very well with neutral protests of freedom of conscience and expression. It unfortunately lines up a lot more closely with Dominionist views.

4. DEX:What I do find though is that the aggressiveness of how someone dismisses a potential relationship is often an indication of their unwillingness to consider it as a possibility. Wright’s dismay over it leads him to demand that it was out of the blue because he’d already firmly had his blinkers on to the possibility from the start.

   Another factor in that blindspot seemed to be that Wright was convinced that Korra would be Mako’s prize. I recall some grousing that he was denied his hero’s reward.

   Which ties neatly into the regressive views he harbors about what women can or should be.(see also: His Supergirl > Wonder Woman rant)

5. It took me a long time to catch up, but in case he sees it here:

   Thank you, Tuomas, for pointing out that I made a mistake about DouPonce’s Vox Day cover. It was published in 2012, not 2014 as I originally typed. At 2 AM.

6. his implication seems to instead be that creators should tailor their works to his beliefs, even if theirs are otherwise.

   He doesn’t imply it. He goes on about it in length inTranshuman and Subhuman.

7. Mad Puppy
   Mad Puppy 2: The Social Justice Warrior
   Mad Puppy Beyond Worldcon
   Mad Puppy: Hugo Road

8. “I have been rereading some of the novels of Keith Laumer, a sadly underrecognized master of the SF genre. …. My bookshelf has all the same paperbacks I read when I was in school, in pristine condition, and placed in the same order. This bookshelf was first filled long ago enough that those authors were alive. ….. Readers who wish to read reviews of modern books must patronize the journal of some man more prone to read modern novels.

   That strikes me as both terribly sad and a good indicator of the Puppy mindset. They HAVE the fiction they like. They want THAT fiction. No, no, keep your newfangled fiction away, this is the pure distilled wonder of my schoolboy dreams. Everything else is just crapping on my bookshelf.

   My bookshelf (when I had them – I have switched almost entirely to electronic media in order to reclaim 2 bedrooms in my house for my children) was constantly changing, stuff was piled up everywhere, order was nearly discarded because I just kept finding new books and new authors to love, while at the same time never releasing my old lovelies. The idea of a bookshelf that looks exactly like the one I had in school and never changes is a bit horrifying.

9. @Matt Y

   Subscribed!

   @Kyra

   Re Freer’s statistics. I suspect his defence will be that he said in the article that his thesis still holds if the percentage of “outspoken left wingers” is much higher. It’s a nonsensical defense, for the reasons you state, but I suspect he would use it anyway.

10. @Gabriel F.

    Oh, I think that may be it. It’s funny. I actually sort of have that bookshelf, except with far more creasing and wear from rereading. When I left my parents’ home, I took all the books I wanted with me, and left a shelf full of ones I’d moved past but had too much affection for to put in a garage sale. I suppose I vaguely intend on introducing my niece to them one day, if she’s interested when she’s old enough.

    I’ve reread a few of them on holiday visits. Some of them are good. Some of them make me question my childhood taste. None of them has been quite the same as I remembered, whether that’s because my memory is rose-colored or because I’m simply not the same person I was at 14. I feel rather sorry for the puppies if that’s what they’re searching for, because I’m not sure they’ll find that feeling again in either their old books or in new ones.

11. To be fair, he staunchly denies this.

    Do you find Wright’s denial convincing? I find his claim that his “men abhor homosexuals on a visceral level” comment was a parody of the bigoted thinking of others to be unsupported by the text, and twice here on File 770 he’s made no attempt to answer four questions I posed about the comment’s interpretation.

12. @XS

    Another factor in that blindspot seemed to be that Wright was convinced that Korra would be Mako’s prize. I recall some grousing that he was denied his hero’s reward.

    Good point. Which is silly considering how much of both Avatar and Legend of Korra worked to up end normal tropes and play with the storytelling to pull the plot of a traditional path and resolution.

    Which ties neatly into the regressive views he harbors about what women can or should be.

    Which he attempts to obfuscate behind the shield of his religion. I was just reading a study that showed men strongly support a level of independence and strength in their daughters that they are not comfortable with their wives. The idea in part was this interesting dilemma in which they can take comfort if their daughter can protect herself and stand as an individual because then she can’t be ruined by a man but are uncomfortable with the idea of their spouse having equal independence and not implicitly needing them.

13. Folks are posting some excellent short story resources, links and recommendations for “reading systems” and I really appreciate it! Thanks!

14. Mark — I actually wrote a rather long response here about why that isn’t necessarily the case at all, for a number of reasons, but I believe it got moderated to oblivion. Which is probably for the best, really, as it was … ridiculously long. 🙂

15. Meredith, I got myself a subscription to Lightspeed, in large part because I’ve had so much success with the anthology volumes John Joseph Adams has edited in recent years and he’s on the editorial staff there. But as others’ lists indicate, you’ve got a bunch of good choices.

16. Barry Deutsch —

    You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims? Don’t be melodramatic. Look down there. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those SJWs stopped writing forever? If I offered you thirteen thousand dollars for every SJW that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many SJWs you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax – the only way you can save money nowadays.

    — The Third Puppy (1949)

17. @eselle28: that’s one of the (many, many, many) things that drove me crazy about Brad Torgersen’s “Nutty Nugget” post. I get it: you want both your breakfast cereal and your science fiction to taste the same way it always has.

    But if he had a time machine and could go back to when he was 14 and have a bowl of the same Nutty Nuggets he loved when he was that age, he’d almost certainly find that the way he perceives them to taste is different than he remembers them tasting. He’s no longer 14, after all.

18. @dex
    I’ve been lurking for weeks now reading the addictive Hugo-related discussions here, so it’s a little embarrassing that a fanfic remark should pull me out of the woodwork. But as one of that ilk – specifically Snape/Harry, in fact – I’d like to point out that for me, at least, part of the appeal is that these two characters *do* loathe each other, but their hostile chemistry and their complicated history, dynamics, and parallels push both my erotic buttons and my story-spinning impulses. The very impediment of their mutual grudge-holding poses a dramatic challenge. Plus there are hero/anti-hero conventions to play with and subvert. It’s up to me as a writer to persuade a reader that there’s any degree of plausibility – or plain suspension of disbelief – in the story I tell about them.

    And I would never, ever try to make a case that JKR planted subtext about them. That’s laughable. (Although someone once posed the question, “What do you think would happen if your favorite pairing got together in canon?” I could only imagine heads exploding, reviews castigating the author, and parents denouncing the series and demanding that it be pulled from library shelves.) The books do, however, contain elements that can be refashioned and refocused along “what if” lines.

    In mainstream art and entertainment marketed to the public at large, there’s a certain amount of squabbling over subtext. Some of that squabbling is deluded and way over the top, sure. But I consider it part of the cultural conversation that will eventually allow queer content to break out of the subtext closet and rise to the surface.

    Re: Wright. A lot of the Puppies strike me as very poor readers, indifferent to nuance and textual clues and the implicit rather than the explicit detail. I think this runs the risk of making them very poor writers as well. Possibly it goes hand in hand with their emphasis on transparent/invisible prose. Wright stands out from the pack because, stylistically speaking, he loves rhetorical flourish, metaphor, and bombast. But none of them are particularly good at clarifying why they hold an opinion. Wright obfuscates, delivers sweeping emotional statements, and presumes to fictionalize his religious beliefs while joining other Pups in claiming that “message fiction” is the province of the Hugo elitists. Feh. (I hate the term SJW. In online fandom, it tends to mean performative progressives who eat their own.)

    Oh, yikes. I apologize for delurking and immediately spewing a novel-length comment. /o\

19. He’s no longer 14, after all.

    With most of the Puppies, I’m not so sure of that.

20. Well, I’ve finally started the voting process.

    *Sigh*

    Honestly, I’m not getting very much satisfaction here. This is my first time voting for the Hugos (usually I get my fan-kicks out of voting for the Locus Awards), and instead of happily voting for excellence in SF&F, I’m voting for the least objectionable nomination. I totally grok the person a couple of threads back who said they would like to see *some* Hugos awarded, and even though I joined the process all full of piss and vinegar fully ready to ‘No Award’ ALL Puppies, I find myself seeing merit in *some* nominations. Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large: I contain multitudes.

    Best Short Story:

    1. Totaled – English
    2. No Award
    3. A Single Samurai – Diamond
    4. On a Spiritual Plane – Antonelli
    5. Turncoat – Rzasa
    6. Parliament – Wright

    Notes:

    Totaled: I’m totally squishy on ‘Totaled’. It’s locked-in now, but I may change my mind.

    On the one hand, after re-reading it again today, I’m convinced that it’s a great story and easily the most Hugo-worthy in the category, but on the other hand, well, she was sure happy to be a Sad Puppy when it looked to be a winning team (as evidenced by her post on Larry Correia’s blog of April 7 (“Addendum To Yesterday’s Letter”)):

    “I want to make sure I’m really clear about something: I did NOT renounce or disavow Sad Puppies…I have been honored and grateful for your support. I would like to offer my thanks to each and every one of you: thank you!”

    On the Gripping Hand, she showed up a couple of threads back with a fine analysis of what’s been going on in Sad Puppy-Land, even if she made those utterly fatuous remarks about her children’s ‘safety’ at Worldcon – Why on earth she would worry is beyond me; Hell I’m more worried about taking the kids to a baseball game. In other words, give me a break: I can’t help calling *bullshit* on that one.

    As for the rest: A Single Samurai: it’s ‘ok’ but, yeah, Nick Mamatas. Additionally, I’ve been following along with a number of reviewers here, most notably Lisa Goldstein, and I basically agree with her short story reviews, especially the “you shouldn’t need a crib sheet for a story” line from her review of John Wright’s “The Parliament of Beasts and Birds.” When I read that I thought ok, thank Ghod, maybe I’m not so stupid after all. I just seem to just bounce off Wright’s prose and I find no enjoyment in it at all.

21. I read Paulk’s new piece with a sense of cynicism. In particular, I found myself wondering how certain elements of her standards would be interpreted by her.

    There is a plot – I wish I didn’t have to include this, but I’ve read a few too many novels that don’t have one. … there are alleged novels where the alleged characters are nothing but ciphers being moved according to the author’s wishes.

    Paulk seems to have read of lot of novels like this, making me wonder whether this is a stalking horse for decrying literary and “message” fiction”, and those unrealistically diverse characters we keep hearing about.

    your prose has me trying to parse out what the hell you meant by that sentence

    Here she could simply be decrying bad writing (a cause we could all get behind)…or perhaps it will be used criticise anything that dares to stray beyond uncomplicated prose.

    The pacing is appropriate

    She makes a big deal about it being appropriate to the genre. So, does fantasy have one applicable pace? Does all SF get to the rocketships at the same speed? Will anything guilty of not getting to the action be dismissed as boring?

    This is undoubtedly cynical of me, and perhaps these are straight uncomplicated rules that she applies with the knowledge that her tastes are not everyone’s tastes…but I still worry.

    I was also confused by the lack of anything specific to the SF genre. Whether it is called worldbuilding, or sense’o’wonder, or speculation, SF has a certain something that we are all looking for. Where is Paulk’s sense of SF as a distinct and unique genre? What does she look for that pushes a simply well-written book into the realms of classic SF?

22. @nel c

    “I’m not leaving until I get to the bottom of things.”

    “Hugos are at the bottom of things, Will. Leave the Hugos to the professionals.”

23. 40 going on 14, anyway.

24. Appropriate is the key thing here. A gentle period-style romantic fantasy is going to have quite a different pace and rhythm than a sweeping space opera adventure.

    I swear, the urge to yell “YOUR NOT MY SUPERVISOR!” at my screen grows with each time a Puppy tries to tell me what is, and is not, appropriate in SF.

25. @mark “Where is Paulk’s sense of SF as a distinct and unique genre?”

    That’s an interesting question and one that goes back to Mike’s “institutional revolutionary party” comment of a few days ago. Sci-fi seems to want to be the “undefinable” genre. But that has its complications.

    I respect Kate for trying to articulate it. It isn’t easy. She’s keeping at it, which is what it takes. On the other “side,” I’ve sought a definition and it seems to come down to a couple of main themes: 1) look at the past winners (the “you’ll know it when you see it” argument, perhaps) and 2) “excellence in sci-fi,” which leads right back to “what is excellence?” and “what is sci-fi?” and then back to Mike’s neverending overthrow.

    I don’t know what the answer is, but this is the question that drew me here, and it’s one I’m pretty sure is important if the Hugos are akin to a referendum as they seem to be.

26. For those who think Skin Game is not worthy of a Hugo, I disagree with you. But you don’t have to believe me, obviously. But you might want to consider the words of Patrick Rothfuss from two years ago (he read an advance copy):

    https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/940943123

    Which Mr. Rothfuss repeated here:

    http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2015/05/coolness-of-harry-dresden/

    And for those who cast aspersions on my opinion that Dresden is the best SFF series out there, apparently I am not a party of one. Per Mr. Rothfuss:

    “If you haven’t read the Dresden Files, you’re missing one of the best fantasy series in existence and you really should consider checking it out. Really really. Seriously.”

    Now that’s out of the way, I’ve been busy and so haven’t been able to respond over the last few days. I’ll be back this weekend. 🙂

27. I spent a couple of minutes wondering if a serious publisher would be prepared to hire Kate as an editor, based on her comments so far as to what constitutes a great book.

    Which was foolish of me because the answer is obvious within a nanosecond or so. However, it did enable me to conclude that I really don’t care what she thinks on this or any other matter, and thus I can safely fast forward through anything Kate related, saving myself considerable time in the future…

28. @NelC Orson Wells! Yay!

29. > “I swear, the urge to yell ‘YOU’RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR!’ at my screen grows with each time a Puppy tries to tell me what is, and is not, appropriate in SF.”

    I get that urge whenever one tries to order me to vote for the nominees they have given me above No Award.

    But to be fair, that’s only happened six or seven or twenty or forty times.

30. @Michael E “he’d almost certainly find that the way he perceives them to taste is different than he remembers them tasting. He’s no longer 14, after all.”

    Yes! They haven’t been doing it as much these past few weeks, but I got really tired of seeing puppies complain that Heinlein couldn’t win a Hugo today. It’s been more than forty years since his best work, why do they assume that present-day Heinlein wouldn’t have grown and changed if he was still around?

31. @Steve Moss

    “If you haven’t read the Dresden Files, you’re missing one of the best fantasy series in existence and you really should consider checking it out”

    That does not, of course, mean that an semi-arbitrary subsection in the middle of the overall story is Hugo-quality in the least, as Rothfuss is speaking of the series as a whole there, not this specific chapter of the tale, as his next two sentences go on to explain:

    “Secondly, if you haven’t read the series, this blog isn’t for you. Partly because I’m going to be talking about stuff that won’t make any sense if you don’t know anything about the books ”

    This is why I like the idea of a “Best Hugo for Novel (series)” – where it clearly delineates that there may be content and necessary development that happen outside the book, and that as a novel in and of itself it may be lacking some of those aspects as being understood to it’s ongoing audience.

32. Skin Game is by far the best thing the puppies have nominated and is one of two works that’s going above No Award on my ballot. It’s not at the top of it primarily because, while it can be read quite easily on its own, I don’t think it’s as strong of a novel as some others nominated on the basis of its plot and prose and separate from the other Dresden Files books.

    This is the sort of book that makes me think that proposed Best Saga category is a good idea, because there is a real achievement in doing the sort of worldbuilding that makes people want to come back to your universe and your characters again and again to see a bit more of them.

33. Jonathan K. Stephens – She’s commented here and while I may not see eye to eye with her on all things Puppy, she’s been kind and respectful of people who’ve said they were going to vote No Award over her story for any reason (like me). I understand that situation being squishy as I also enjoyed that story.

34. Graham Greene yay!

35. @Meredith: I happen to read almost entirely short fiction – which seems to make me rather odd (but I collect science fiction magazines so there is a method to my madness). What I have found that seems to be a reasonable rule of thumb is I go by how much the markets pay per word for stories. Since the beginning of the field in 1926, you could generally follow the money to the best stories. While not always true, it stands to reason that the better an author thinks their stories are, the more money they will try to get for them. So the markets that pay the most see the most stories and get first pick.

    I use ralan.com to determine what the markets pay. Not surprisingly, Tor.com pays the most. By a lot. Sci Fiction did this in the early 200s as well and its glowing memory is richly deserved. So, I actually read through periodicals in something like this order (but this is just me, your mileage may vary):

    Tor.com up to 25 cents per word
    Asimov’s up to 10 cents per word (I subscribe – this tends towards literary and sentimental stories)
    Analog up to 9 cents per word (I subscribe – hard science fiction)
    F&SF up to 12 cents per word (I subscribe – more literary fantasy and science fiction)
    Lightspeed 8 cents per word (read free stuff online)
    Clarkesworld up to 10 cents per word (read free stuff online)
    Strange Horizons 8 cents per word (free oinline)
    Beneath Ceaseless Skies 6 cents per word (free online)

    I used to read Subterranean Online. I will probably pick up Uncanny which pays 8 cents per word. Also, as I research this I see that Fantastic has been revived and it pays 15 cents per word. That is pretty stout. So I will need to check that out. I don’t really like horror so I don’t much look at Apex or Nightmare. It is hard to keep up with this list and there is a lot more out there.

    You know, the Puppies complain about how short fiction got taken over by message fiction but the simple matter is: the best stories appear in the top paying markets and those editors drive the discussion about short fiction by the stories they pick. Each market seems to have its stable of authors that appear over and over. So if you are one of the authors who appears frequently in the top paying venue in the field, you stand a good chance of getting a lot of nominations. And as other authors see what kind of fiction sells to the top paying markets, they will probably adapt at least a little to those styles. So you will notice when you read these magazines that each has a distinct feel to it.

    The bottom line is that Tor.com is likely to have more nominations when it pays up to 10 cents more per word than the next closest market. I would keep an eye on Fantastic too. Sorry to ramble on but I do love to talk about SF magazines.

36. Moss – But you might want to consider the words of Patrick Rothfuss from two years ago (he read an advance copy):

    Read and considered them, somehow my own opinion is unchanged.

37. “Alright… what do you want me to say? Do you want me to say it’s rabid, so you can contradict me and say it’s sad? Or do you want me to say it’s sad so you can turn around and say no, it’s rabid. You can play that damn little game any way you want to, you know!”
    ? Who’s Afraid of The Big Sad Wolf? (1966)

38. I’ve just read Kate Paulk’s Hugo-worthy rules, and … these feel like lowest common denominator standards. The list is very basic, very Creative Writing 101, for novice writers who haven’t encountered these concepts before.

    Neither does she acknowledge how much individual judgment is a mix of subjective and objective. The whole question of what constitutes “immersive” changes from reader to reader. Or for that matter, today’s mood vs. tomorrow’s. I put down The Goblin Emperor because I was more in the mood for something along the lines of Ancillary Sword (and because I was already re-reading The Name of the Rose, which satisfied my appetite for proliferating names and familiar-but-abstruse cultures). That doesn’t mean I won’t immerse myself in TGE when I pick it up again later today.

39. This leads to an interesting conflict in how readers see works. “Look at all the queer content going on here!” says one group of fans. A second group responds, “you guys are bending over backwards to see queer content where there isn’t any in the text.” And then the first groups goes, “how on earth are you NOT seeing this?”

    And thus are shipping and slashing wars begun…

40. Steve Moss:But you might want to consider the words of Patrick Rothfuss from two years ago (he read an advance copy):

    Rothfuss produced one of the most obnoxiously douchey Gary Stus in recent memory and gave him a series all to himself.

    You have effectively sold me off Dresden Files.

41. ““I see in the Puppies club the whiniest and egotistical men who’ve ever bloviated. I see this limited potential and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire chunk of readers pumping VD’s ego, waiting for Wright, slaves with blinkered minds, resentment has them chasing MilSf and gunporn, spewing out their hate so they can justify buying shit no-one can love. They are the step-children of science fiction, man, no purpose or place, they have no Great works, no Great epiphanies, their great war is the tantrum of children, their great depression is their lives. They’ve been all raised by lunatics to believe that one day they’d all be Alphas and platinum sellers and Hugo winners, but they won’t and they’re slowly learning that fact. and they’re very very pissed off.”

42. Has anyone done–ahem–“Peeing There”?

43. @nyq Greene was another adult convert to Catholicism iirc. Been trying to think about that in relation to Wright.

44. @eselle28

    Oh believe me, I am a fervent re-reader. In fact, even as someone who goes through approximately a novel or anthology a week (I’m a near-constant reader with ADD and OCD, soo yeah) re-reading my favorites is like wrapping myself in a nice warm blanket. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been through Katharine Kerr’s Deverry Cycle (and let’s talk about someone who has not been properly recognized!!)

    Still, bookshelves should change and evolve. If they don’t want that… why don’t they just happily re-read their old books instead of demanding that new books should copy them? I’m an un-fan of remakes and resets, personally, the current trend is Hollywood is a real bummer.

45. IMO the most impressive thing about the Dresden Files is the consistency and continuity. It’s damn hard to get a multi-novel series that has so few errors that yank you back. When you “wait a minute, back in Book 4 you introduced a spell that would trivially solve this problem, how are the characters ignoring it?” Or even “wait, Bob is blonde now? In Book 2 his hair was black!”

    That’s almost impossible to award on the basis of one book, however. Each book is an enjoyable read, but it’s the whole series that really gets it done.

46. Oh goodness.

    OK, everybody, I’m sorry for defending Wright’s “axhandles and tire-irons” comment as possibly ambiguous. I’d been working from memory, and I just went and reread the source. Ack. That line wasn’t even the worst; the “puke response” and “men abhor homosexuals on a visceral level” bits are — well — umm — you might say they trigger a puke response.

    Sorry about that. Don’t mean to divert the discussion; just saying a mea culpa here. Carry on.

47. Anyone interested in the idea of fan-shipping relationships either as fan construction as an adjunct to author canon or as new canon of their own would probably have an enjoyable time reading FANGIRL: A NOVEL by Rainbow Rowell, and quite likely her upcoming CARRY ON as well.

    The first is a YA non-SFF novel in which the lead character is a fanfic writer (and college freshman) who wrestles with the demands and opportunities of real life versus the shelter of fanfic (and its strengths and opportunities as well), and the novel regularly segues into “fanfic” sections where she’s shipping characters who feel like something between Harry Potter, Twilight and The Magicians.

    The second, which I can’t comment on knowledgeably because I haven’t read it, is a novel spun out of that fictional fanfic, where Rowell takes the characters in a different direction from both her fictional author and fictional fanficcer. I’ve liked everything I’ve read from Rowell, so I’m looking forward to it.

48. John C. Wright: “My bookshelf has all the same paperbacks I read when I was in school, in pristine condition, and placed in the same order. This bookshelf was first filled long ago enough that those authors were alive. None now are… Readers who wish to read reviews of modern books must patronize the journal of some man more prone to read modern novels.”

    I find this creepy for a few reasons:
    1) If they’re all still pristine, he’s apparently only read them once, maybe twice, as a schoolboy. How accurate, then, is his remembrance of their content, decades later?
    2) This evokes for me the (really creepy) image of an altar created to worship an ideal, not an appreciation of a living, growing genre.
    3) He’s actually bragging here: “I haven’t read any SFF published after ~1980! And I’m proud of my ignorance!”

49. I’m now imagining what it’d have been like if Graham Greene, Hemingway, G.B. Shaw and the Algonquin Round Table had been on Twitter.

50. @kurt Hemingway would win. Shortest words.

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