aka An alternate dimension based on String Theory.
Vox Day, Lela E. Buis, Bob Nelson, Jack Hastings, Floris M. Kleijne, Martin Wisse, John Scalzi, Brian Niemeier, Steve Green, Bruce Arthurs, Ampersand, Immanuel Taal, Lis Carey, Larry Correia, Spacefaring Kitten, Elisa Bergslien, Brandon Kempner and Pip R. Lagenta and Pab Sungenis. (Title credit belongs to File 770’s contributing editors of the day Laura Resnick and John King Tarpinian.)
Vox Day on Vox Popoli
“#GamerGate has more fun” – May 16
#GamerGate has got to be the first consumer revolt that managed to bring together unequivocally evangelical Christians, unabashed porn stars, and undeniably fabulous homosexuals. Among many, many others. How evil are the SJWs, how universally loathsome is their ideology, that it can inspire such diverse tribes to unite against them? We need a word to describe anti-SJWism. Then again, I suppose we’ve already got one. And that word would be “freedom”.
Lela E. Buis
“Establishing a brand with controversy” – May 16
Before this month, how many people had heard of Theodore Beale (aka Vox Day)? Come on, let’s have a show of hands. Nobody? Same here. I had never heard of the man. Somehow his accomplishments had escaped my notice. However, he is on the national radar now, as he has managed to subvert the Hugo Awards. Not only has he received two nominations for his own work, but his publishing house has won nine nominations. He accomplished this through a political and financial campaign that took advantage of how the awards are run.
Bob Nelson
“Hugos, Sad Puppies and The Game of Thrones” – May 16
The Baen Books website includes a forum called Baen’s Bar. I was banned for not agreeing with Mr Ringo’s vision of the universe. That really pissed me off, because I had in fact bought several of his early books, before he went completely wingnut… In fact, I bought books by just about every one of Baen’s considerable stable. Eric Flint is still a favorite of mine.
Which brings us to Sad Puppies… this time for real.
A couple years ago, a Baen writer named Larry Correia, on the belief that the Hugo Awards had been kidnapped by radical left-wingers whom he calls “Social Justice Warriors”, decided to recruit enough John Ringo True Believers to effectively take control of the Hugo Award ballot process. This year, his successor at the head of the Sad Puppies movement, Brad Torgerson, was brilliantly successful. The Ringo Faithful successfully packed the nominating process, ensuring their victory in the final voting. Baen authors won everything.
I am a Vietnam vet. That war was epitomized by a young lieutenant’s phrase, “We had to destroy the village to save it.” The Sad Puppies had to destroy the Hugo to save it. It is not clear whether the Hugo Awards will ever carry the kind of aura that they had before the Sad Puppy coup d’état.
Jack Hastings on Half-Forgotten
“The Great Hugo Kerfuffle of 2015” – May 16
Disclaimer
Let it be said at the outset that I am an armchair socialist who very much dislikes Tea Party apparatchiks, Fox News demagogues, religious zealots, Rush Limberger and the Sad and Rabid Puppies who have mounted a campaign to hijack Science Fiction Fandom’s Hugo Awards. Furthermore, I am not going to provide links to any of Correia’s, Torgersen’s or Beale’s (the Sad and Rabid Puppies, see below) web posts because I don’t have to and that’s what Google is for anyway. You’ll just have to trust me that the quotes provided are accurate and not taken too far out of context. You can do that, can’t ya?
Floris M. Kleijne on Barno’s Stables
“The Modified No Award Proposal: SPUNARPU” – May 15
To put it bluntly: I accept Brad Torgersen’s Sad Puppies, and I reject their Rabid cousins. And to put my money where my mouth is, I’m proposing the SPUNARPU voting approach: Sad PUppies, No Award, Rabid PUppies.
What does that mean in practice? I will read/watch/listen to all nominated works and artists that were either on the Sad Puppies slate (regardless of their presence on the Rabid slate), or on neither slate. I will neither peruse nor vote for works and artists that were only on the Rabid Puppies slate.
Therefore, my amended SPUNARPU approach to this year’s Hugo vote is thus:
- Slush-peruse (read, watch, listen until I’ve had enough) all nominated works and artists except the ones slated by Vox Day and his Rabid Puppies.
- Vote for the works and artists I believe are Hugo-worthy in order of how much I think of them.
- If voting slots remains, put No Award
- If voting slots still remain, vote for the works and artists I believe are not Hugo-worthy below No Award, in order of how little I think of them.
- If voting slots remain even after this exercise, put the Rabid Puppies nominees in there.
This approach minimizes the chance of works and artists slated by Vox Day and not by Brad Torgersen winning a Hugo
Martin Wisse on Wis[s]e Words
”Puppy-Proofing the Hugos” – May 16
LonCon3 had over 10,000 members: get all those to nominate and slate buying becomes slightly more expensive. But how do you get them to vote? Once LonCon3 was over, it was up to Sasquan to rally voters, but that only started in January, or four months later, far too late for those not into core Worldcon fandom to remember to nominate. What’s needed therefore is for the nomination process to open earlier, something which the WSFS rules don’t say anything about, so which can be done without needing that lengthy rule changing process. And while it is easier for a Worldcon to only start considering nominations in January, I think this is important enough to justify that added difficulty.
What I would like to see is having electronic nomination ballots open as soon as possible, either in January of the eligible year (e.g. January 2015 for 2016 nominations) or, if that’s too confusing, too much of a hassle, perhaps after the previous Worldcon has finished (September 1 for the most part). That way it also becomes easier for those already involved to keep a running tally for the year. It would also need not just opening the nominations, but promoting the nomination process as well. Get the members of the previous Worldcon involved, get them enthusiastic about nominating. It’s something next year’s Worldcon, MidAmeriConII, could start up already.
John Scalzi on Whatever
“Reader Request Week 2015 #10: Short Bits” – May 16
Noblehunter: “What are your thoughts on bad actors in anarchic/unorganized social movements? From looters hi-jacking civil rights protests to gamergate (some people seem to actually believe it’s about ethics in video game journalism) and Puppies (likewise), the stated goals of the group are undermined or by those calling themselves members of the group while acting in counter-productive ways. Can these groups police themselves despite a lack of central authority? Do you have any suggestions for people who are genuinely concerned about ethics in videogame journalism or other populist causes?”
Well, I’d first note that in the cases of Gamergate and the Puppies, the “stated goals” of the group were tacked on as afterthoughts/justifications for the precipitating action (harassment of women — and of a specific woman — in the case of Gamergate, personal desire for a bauble in the case of the Puppies). That’s not an insignificant thing, and it’s not something the fig leaf of a “stated goal” is going to cover up. This is a different situation, obviously, than looters attaching themselves to a protest movement already underway.
If I were truly interested in ethics in video game journalism — which is a laudable goal — or in seeing more representation of the sort of SF/F subgenres I liked in awards — less concretely laudable, but sure, why not — or whatever, I would probably start fresh, far away from those already tainted movements.
Brian Niemeier on Superversive SF
“Transhuman and Subhuman Part IV – Science Fiction: What Is It Good For?” – May 16
According to Wright, the end of science fiction and fantasy’s exile was decreed by the advent of a single film: George Lucas’ cultural juggernaut Star Wars. “When…the President of the United States can make casual references to Jedi mind-powers or the One Ring from Mordor, then space opera and fantasy epic have sunk into the marrow bones of the popular imagination.”
Having examined how genre fiction’s banishment came about, and how it ended, Wright turns to the questions of where sci-fi is going, and what it’s for.
Steve Green
My latest mug/t-shirt/poster/tattoo design. As a republican, I’d rather not have included the crown, but it’d look odd otherwise.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
ED COX DOODLE HERE
Bruce Arthurs on Undulant Fever
“Mad Libs: Sad Puppies Edition” – May 16
The Wall Street Journal published a recent story about the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies gaming a vulnerability in the Hugo Awards nomination procedure to almost completely dominate the 2015 ballot with their own, ah, particular point of view. I was reading the comments (yes, I should know better than to read comments on posts about this subject by now; doing so mostly just raises my blood pressure)….
Ampersand on Alas
“In Which Amp Realizes That Two Arguments That Frustrate Me Are Actually The Same” – May 16
As regular readers know (and by “know,” I mean, “are probably sick of hearing”), I’m against it when folks organize to economically punish others for their political views.
Very frequently, when I write or talk about this, I’ll run into some fellow lefty1 who doesn’t see any substantive difference between an organized boycott or blacklist against (say) hiring Orson Scott Card, and an individual reader choosing not to buy Card’s books.
Then I realized that one of the Sad Puppy/Rabid Puppy arguments about the Hugo awards that I find most frustrating, is really the exact same argument. One side is saying that collective organization – be it an anti-OSC petition or slate voting – is substantively different than individuals making individual decisions. The other side is denying that there’s any meaningful difference.
Immanuel Taal on Medium
“An Ode To Flatland” – May 16
Good Science Fiction answers a “what if” question with the guiding hand of its author. A good social message that grows naturally out of this story can help make the setting that much more rich, the characters that much more realistic, and the themes that much more intriguing. But a good social message imposed on a story contrived to push the author’s social views is bad Science Fiction. It comes down to the “science” part of Science Fiction. Good science starts with evidence and reaches conclusions. Good Science Fiction starts with imaginary evidence and reaches imaginary conclusions. Bad science and bad Science Fiction alike start with the conclusion and try to support it with flimsy (and often imaginary) evidence. The author has complete control over their created world and the social message, if any, they wish to convey. If that world doesn’t naturally grow to show the message it’s probably a boring world and a weak social message.
Watched Daredevil. Most unrealistic part? Not blind Kung Fu. But a reporter who won't run a hit piece without sufficient evidence? No way
— Larry Correia (@monsterhunter45) May 15, 2015
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“The Journeyman: In the Stone House, by Michael F. Flynn” – May 16
Structurally, this isn’t a bad story. The plot is a little thin, with much of the little that happens relying on events in the prior story.
Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring, Extradimensional Happy Kittens
“’The Journeyman: In the Stone House’ by Michael F. Flynn” – May 16
The main character is an adventurer who has been adventuring in some earlier Analog story as well. He isn’t terribly interesting in any way, and nothing of interest happens in the story, so I was left wondering what was the point, really. There’s some military training, sword-fighting and snappy dialogue that is meant to be smart-ass (I guess).
I didn’t enjoy it at all and have trouble seeing why it’s on the ballot.
Elisa Bergslien on Leopards and Dragons
“A peak into The Goblin Emperor” – May 15
The one ‘fun’ thing I have managed to do in the past few weeks is to start reading works nominated for a Hugo award. All of the short works I have read so far have ranged from meh down to yuck! Thankfully the novel category has some lovely rays of light. I have been reading The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison and greatly enjoying it.
Brandon Kempner on Chaos Horizon
‘Hugo Award Nomination Ranges, 2006-2015, Part 5” – May 16
Let’s wrap this up by looking at the rest of the data concerning the Short Fiction categories of Novella, Novelette, and Short Story. Remember, these stories receive far fewer votes than the Best Novel category, and they are also less centralized, i.e. the votes are spread out over a broader range of texts. Let’s start by looking at some of those diffusion numbers:
Pip R. Lagenta on Facebook – May 16
First Sad
My Hugo burns at both ends.
It will not last the night.
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—…
Those Puppies are a blight
Pab Sungenis on The New Adventures of Queen Victoria – May 16
https://twitter.com/yetregressing/status/599620774081728512
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@snowcrash:
How do people normally rank BDP, and Graphic Story? Surely aspects of the medium that aren’t directly about narrative should have a strong impact. I tend to like works that combine strong stylistic design with story-telling. Hence why games like Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Braid, Swapper that are much lower on narrative content than BioShock, Mass Effect or Dragon Age are I think better games. I could also see why people might prefer to nominate games that put forth whole novels worth of plot too.
And yes 2013 does appear to have been a good year, I am having a much harder time filling out a list for last year. Currently it sits at 7.
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Transistor
Divinity: Original Sin
Dark Souls II
Banner Saga
Child of Light
Never Alone
@Kary I’d like to start by saying that I’m very concerned to hear you anticipate death threats, and I’d like to utterly condemn anyone who even considers issuing one.
Thank you for the details on what you were told about SP3. Are you aware that others have also stated that Brad Torgeson misled them over the nature of SP3, or didn’t tell them at all, notably some of the withdrawing nominees? I have to say, I’m inclined to feel that as you’ve accepted your nomination you must be reasonably comfortable (or at least sufficiently uncomfortable) with the political aims of SP3. Is this a fair assessment?
I’m taking from your two posts that you are quite rightly delighted to get a Hugo nom, which I can identify with. Only my spectacular lack of creative writing ability prevents me from dreaming of one too. You also seem to be preparing for a negative response, be it booing at the ceremony or criticism of the result. I don’t support boorishness at the ceremony, but I have to say that you don’t seem to be engaging with the reasons why people might not be happy with the results.
As I mentioned in my first post, I’m going to be voting, and I intend to read Totaled to judge where I should place it. (I suspect fairness will force me to even read JCWs works, but I haven’t quite decided yet if I can bring myself to knowingly read such an odious person’s output). Something occurred to me after that post though. Annie Bellet took a principled stand when withdrawing, denying herself a shot at the Hugo. I’m wondering if it would be fair of me to vote for anything I think is worse than her story. Wouldn’t it be punishing her stand to do so? I’d be interested in your thoughts.
@Influxus: If people did like the idea one route might be to limit it to novels, and simply make nominations part of the sign up process of YA or Children.
I’m guessing you haven’t really thought this through very well. Let’s say a 13 year old is at LoneStarCon 3 (Aug. 29 – Sept. 2, 2013) in San Antonio and presupports Spokane’s bid for holding the 2015 Worldcon. She votes in site selection, automatically gets a supporting membership in Sasquan, and pays the upgrade fee to a Sasquan Young Adult membership on Sept. 1st, 2013. This is the example young member’s ‘sign up process’.
So, your idea is that she is going to be asked to submit her nominations for the Young Adult Novel Hugo Award, for which novels written during 2014 would be eligible, on Sept. 1st, 2013, right?
Stevie: It doesn’t worry me what you believe, except that you keep trying to straighten other people out on the basis of what you believe, such as contradicting Gump’s “Jesus is Lord” statement. Is there any evidence that he said “My name is Jesus”? And yet that doesn’t seem to limit our ability to call him so. Paul calls him Lord, repeatedly, so it’s not like we just made that up.
Maximillian @ 4:23 am- I think you are conflating two issues, my positions vis-a-vis Larry Correia and Vox Day are quite different.
I have never claimed that Vox Day is “innocent”. In fact, I believe the opposite to be true. He enjoys jerking some people’s chains.
I have also never claimed that Scalzi verbally attacked Vox Day “unprovoked”. The relationship between Vox Day and John Scalzi pre-dates SP1. Why they got cross-wise, I have only the vaguest idea.
I have sometimes protested people saying VD said something he hasn’t actually said. But VD has said things I don’t agree with (specifically on women voting, and a few other issues), and I don’t get the need to manufacture false beliefs, quotes and attribute them to VD when there’s plenty that could be legitimately debated.
I also think VD is a lot smarter than some here, and I have to shake my head at what appear obvious traps to me that they insist on running blindly into. But that is not an endorsement of VD’s character, only that he knows how to stampede certain types of people.
I have some understanding as to how Larry Correia and John Scalzi got cross-wise. And absent some private emails or conversations which I know nothing about, I believe John Scalzi was the instigator. I think he saw a chance to score some cheap points. I also think he’s in part responsible for the increasing aggravation between SP and the rest of fandom.
This does not mean Larry Correia is a saint. So I do not consider him “innocent”. He, on the other hand, has behaved more or less honorably. I think Correia is a good man. I have a lesser opinion of others.
So when it comes to Scalzi vs. Correia, I tend to side with Correia. When it comes to Scalzi v. Vox Day, I want to get popcorn.
Rick Moen @ 8:29 pm- I agree with you; Will Shetterly is an excellent writer.
influxus: “I’m not really in favour of breaking out awards for specific subgenres like YA.”
See, I don’t think of “YA” as a subgenre. It’s a different animal. “Urban fantasy” and “horror” and “dystopian” are subgenres, and you can have both Adult and YA urban fantasy, Adult and YA horror, etc.
To me, YA Novel is a separate category the same way that Graphic Novel is a separate category. Both of them are read by Adults who also read Novels; but they are each something “other than Novel”.
Mike Glyer on May 17, 2015 at 10:44 pm said:
Mike Glyer: “Stevie: It doesn’t worry me what you believe, except that you keep trying to straighten other people out on the basis of what you believe, such as contradicting Gump’s “Jesus is Lord” statement. Is there any evidence that he said “My name is Jesus”? And yet that doesn’t seem to limit our ability to call him so. Paul calls him Lord, repeatedly, so it’s not like we just made that up.”
I would just like to add that the passages everyone is quoting have all been translated from ancient languages — sometimes through 3 or 4 ancient language translations of translations — and splitting hairs over terminology and titles of address probably does not make a lot of sense.
“Steve Moss on May 16, 2015 at 9:56 pm said:
Matt Y @ 8:35 pm- So far as I am aware (and I’ve been reading through the blogs, trying to get a grip on things), the Scalzi vs. Corriea feud did not cause SP1. From what I can determine,the Corriea-Scalzi feud started as follows:
1. Ms. USA makes comments about women’s self-defense.
2. Corriea supports her comments.
3. Jim Hines’ criticizes Ms. USA and Corriea, in not too pleasant terms.
4. Corriea pins Hines’ ears back.
Is that seriously what you think happened? Correia did no such thing. If he made some posturing on his own blog in which he claimed to have won a victory over Hines, then that’s his prerogative, of course, but he certainly didn’t “pin Jim’s ears back.”
As for gaming being a Hugo category, I’m enthusiastically in favor. Tell-Tale’s Walking Dead games have amazing storytelling, and while they’re based in TWD’s universe, they’re both original and powerful. That’s just one example, The Last of Us was also really well told.
As to people not being willing to play them? There are many, many play-throughs and Let’s Plays on Youtube that can give one a perfect overview of the story told in the game. Some even consist solely of cut-scenes and story scenes that would let anyone have a very good idea of the story without ever having to pick up a controller.
I’m sad not to see Tad Williams and Katharine Kerr on any of the top-10 lists in this post, so I’m going to throw them out there as wonderful reads, and ones I frequently re-read. I’m actually surprised Williams has never won a Hugo himself, especially for his Otherland books.
@Rick Moen:
I haven’t thought this through at all. Nor am I very familiar with the sign up trajectory. I am another one of those people who until this year has only used the hugo lists as a way to find good things to read.
So, sure, if all YA and children are signed up 2 years in advance then building nominations into the sign up process doesn’t help get increased participation at all.
Gabriel: #3 didn’t happen either, unless “not too pleasant terms” is redefined to mean “contradicted politely, but did use the word ‘rant’ once”
or possible “not too pleasant terms” means “was rude enough to discuss rape statistics in a discussion of rape”
Steve isn’t very good at honest reporting.
Rick,
Sure. The “group” that was not informed per Steve Cooper’s statement was the YA campaigning group, not the YA Study Group whose chair, as I said, was at the meeting. But I can see where the confusion arose.
Nicholas Whyte, Rick Moen, anyone else:
So can you tell me if this study group/committee is still in progress? Thanks.
Rick Moen: “I would imagine that the term antisemitism, used meaningfully, would need to reference some at least arguable form of bigotry against the Jewish people or religion, some dislike of said people because of their ethnicity, some cutting characterisation of them based on their ethnicity, some intent to discriminate against them on those grounds, that they should be treated differently for no reason other than those grounds.”
I refer you to Wikipedia, which quotes a range of definitions from recognised experts, including Dietz Bering describing that, to the antisemite:
“Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their ‘host societies’ or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the anti-Semites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character.”
Theodore Beale’s writing (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/03/time-to-go.html, http://voxday.blogspot.com/2014/07/out-of-frying-pan.html, inter alia) demonstrates that he believes all three of these statements to be true, and has implied (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/01/merits-of-anti-semitism.html) that he believes Jewish “bad traits” to be incorrigable (in the sense that anti-semitism can be traced to collective behaviour on the part of Jews that has not changed since the medieval period). On this basis he asserts that “They don’t have any right to be anywhere except Israel” – not in some hypothetical future, but in the present – which is a denial of the right of citizenship on the basis of nothing more than their ethnicity.
One might try to contextualise this by pointing out that “Vox Day” is a provocateur, a fearless thinker who says what others cannot or will not. In his own words, “I am precise about what I write because the mere mention of Jews is enough to send people on both sides into frothing frenzies, philosemites crying Hitler and Holocaust on the one side and antisemites yowling about the Rothschilds on the other. I have no patience for any of that crap. So, I’m not giving anyone, on either side, the chance to pigeonhole me in order to disqualify me.”
Unfortunately this appears in a blog post entitled “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Wye” (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2014/01/protocols-of-learned-elders-of-wye.html), in which he says that Jewish groups’ discussion about their current situation leaves him “with the unfortunate impression of rats congregating in order to contemplate the right time to leave a sinking ship.” (He says “leaves one”, but since he is the one discussing the article, it actually leaves *him* with that impression, which he is merely anxious to share.) Comparing Jews to rats leaving a sinking ship should be a familiar enough accusation to those that have a passing understanding of the history of antisemitism in twentieth century Europe.
People can make up their own minds about whether Theodore Beale is antisemitic, but I strongly recommend that we look at the little man behind the curtain who says that he is “not particularly fond of Jewish culture” rather than the big glowing head in front of us that says that “Jew hatred” is “irrational, illogical” (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2003/10/jew-haters-at-state.html). The big glowing head says that it has “nothing but contempt for the Arabists at State, who would like to help their murderous proxies finish what the National Socialists started” but the little man behind the curtain can’t help himself: he laments “I understand why the hatred exists and I know that it is, to a certain extent, merited.” (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/08/and-why-might-that-be.html) He’s just being a realist, people; the Jews have brought antisemitism on themselves by their behaviour, and he’s just warning them that they must change their ways before it’s too late!
Again, this is a familiar trope to anybody with a passing understanding of the history of antisemitism in twentieth century Europe.
MickyFinn on May 17, 2015 at 11:12 pm said:
Gabriel: #3 didn’t happen either, unless “not too pleasant terms” is redefined to mean “contradicted politely, but did use the word ‘rant’ once”
or possible “not too pleasant terms” means “was rude enough to discuss rape statistics in a discussion of rape”
This is true, but anyone with even a passing familiarity with Hines would know that discussing rape and rape statistics is certainly one of his high priority activities. He was doing it long before he was even published. If they are shocked by it… they’re very, very behind the times!
@Steve Moss: “[Larry Correia], on the other hand, has behaved more or less honorably. I think Correia is a good man.”
I once shared that opinion. I no longer do, because of my own interactions with him. When I say that Larry argues in bad faith, it is because he has done so with me, and freely said so to my face later. You are free to consider that information however you please, of course.
@JJ: “To me, YA Novel is a separate category the same way that Graphic Novel is a separate category. Both of them are read by Adults who also read Novels; but they are each something “other than Novel”.”
I strongly disagree with that. Graphic Novel differs from Novel in key elements of form; Novel may contain illustrations, or not, but Graphic Novel must, and typically makes them integral to the story. By contrast, YA is merely a choice of intended audience; the difference is less than that which exists between SF and Fantasy. In that respect, “Best YA Novel” makes about as much sense as “Best G-Rated Movie” to me. I wouldn’t argue that being G-rated makes a motion picture somehow a not-movie, but I could see an argument for recognizing the category as its own thing.
@influxus: Fair enough. I didn’t mean my comment about ‘not thinking things through’ to sound sharp, and apologise if it came across that way.
Like the illustrious Mr. Kevin Standlee (who unlike me has done a great deal to share knowledge on these matters), I encourage people to get involved and try to draft, or help draft, improvements to the Worldcon’s processes. Having seen some well-intended Business Meeting motions like the 2013 YA Hugo one at the San Antonio Worldcon crash and burn because they weren’t explained well, and no effort was made to build consensus and support before trying to force a vote, I would love to see that happen less often, and that includes working out the problems and obstacles in advance, and having answers to likely objections.
@Steve Moss – Thank you. While I still feel that you are Wrong About Everything, I understand your point of view and can see how you got there honestly. (And without craziness)
I was very amused to see you say, “I don’t get the need to manufacture false beliefs, quotes and attribute them to VD when there’s plenty that could be legitimately debated”, because that is almost word for word what I say about a certain president of a very large country between Canada and Mexico. I *think* that this is what Rick Moen is getting at as well, when he asks for cites on the ‘VD’ is evil train.
JJ,
I’m out of the loop now, and to be honest I didn’t even know that the YA working group had not presented a report to the Loncon 3 business meeting; I was busy with other things at the time.
Correia’s misinterpretation of what McFarlane and Walters wrote in early 2014 about non-binary characters in SF is so extreme that I can only see it as wilful and in bad faith.
@Steve Moss
Having followed what are probably the same links as you, I would say you are technically correct that Scalzi made the first move in the exchange between him and Correia. But let’s look at the wider exchange. There’s a political kurflufle. People say stuff. Correia blogs his opinion from one side of the debate. Hines blogs and Scalzi tweets his opinion from the other. Basically, people on either side of the political spectrum disagree with each other over the issue of the day. The only thing Scalzi can be said to have instigated is a swift exchange of bickering tweets. Why does this translate into some sort of justification for recent events?
You consider Correia to have behaved “more or less honorably.” One of Correia’s retaliations was to call Hines and Scalzi “cowardly, effeminate, worm tongued, physically weak, beta males”. I could pull plenty of other quotes out like that. Even if you think that Correia was simply defending himself, does he get a pass on that sort of insult? Does he stay on the side of purity and honour?
Finally, the idea that Scalzi is the anti-puppy-in-chief, and if he’d just been nicer to them they wouldn’t have escalated, is a tired narrative that needs backing up or retiring.
@rick You may scare me more than Vox does.
Gah, apparently I put some posts in the wrong thread.
As far as the argument that all these YA novels are getting nominated for Hugos, I find what I would consider a paucity:
2012 – Among Others – Jo Walton – winner
2010 – Wake – Robert J Sawyer – nominee
2009 – The Graveyard Book – Neil Gaiman – winner
one could posit that
2009 – Cory Doctorow – Little Brother – nominee
and
2009 – John Scalzi – Zoe’s Tale – nominee
are YA — but I have read both, and I think that could be disputed.
Nevertheless, for the next YA novels, one has to go back to
2001 – Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire – J.K. Rowling – winner
2001 – Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban – J.K. Rowling – nominee
the next possibility would be
1996 – The Diamond Age – Neal Stephenson – winner
after that, I have to go back to
1979 – The White Dragon – Anne McCaffrey – nominee
(though I may have missed some in there, I’ve read most but not all the nominees)
I haven’t had a chance to go through the YA novels which have been published in the last 20 years and pick out ones which may have been overlooked because they were YA. If anyone has a good source listing for YA novels for the last x years, I would be interested in being pointed to that — otherwise, it’s a huge undertaking.
And, of course, we already have the Golden Duck awards, which are presented every year at Worldcon.
http://www.goldenduck.org/
Glenn Hauman: “And, of course, we already have the Golden Duck awards, which are presented every year at Worldcon.”
Based on that website, the last year the Golden Ducks were awarded was 2012.
@rick edit: you definitely scare me more than Vox does.
@rick Vox may chase you to the far corners of the Arctic. Worry not–the story ends well.
What’s that old joke about the scorpion and the river?
A little Wikipedia reading for your swim across the Lethe:
“A scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, both would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog then agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature.”
What makes this a tragedy, note, is that the frog had been warned.
@Unwin the Goof: I refer you to Wikipedia
You can’t even pay for straight lines as good as that. Thanks! (Meanwhile, I notice that Owlriver never bothered to address the question I posed to him/her. But it’s nice that the rest of the Internet has opinions about what he or she should have thought.)
@Will: you definitely scare me more than Vox does.
In a bad way, one fervently hopes? ;-> (But thank you. As you may have gathered, I really don’t give a rat’s tuchis what any of various classes of ideologues profess to think about me on the Internet. They can bite my ankles all the want.)
Rick Moen
[email protected]
Well, I have been called a great many things, but I think this is a first for “ideologue.” And a low-class ideologue at that! But I should thank you, I guess, for proving to me that there are worse dangers than Vox Day out there.
I wonder if the Wall Street Journal will have to update its story soon.
Even he [VD] had admitted that the whole RP shit is because of that grudge. Not any concern for the “integrity of the Hugos”
He did later claim that he had been rhetoricing and it was in fact a publicity stunt to draw attention to his new eBook venture which was going to wrest control of the entire ePublishing market away from Amazon, reduce prices to about $2 a book or less and allow a new golden age to rise from the rubble of the global book industry.
And since we know he always tells the truth in all things…
@Will: I was unaware of having called you anything at all.
If you’re serious about regarding me as a horrific person of some sort, you’re welcome to share if you think it’s even remotely interesting. Otherwise, I have no idea what you’re on about.
@rick I’m imagining you batting your eyelashes as you say that.
Based on that website, the last year the Golden Ducks were awarded was 2012.
Just a case of people not updating their website.
http://www.loncon3.org/documents/newsletters/issue8.pdf
shows
Golden Duck Awards
? Picture Book: Vader’s Little Princess, by Jeffrey Brown (Chronicle)
? Eleanor Cameron Award for Middle Grade: Hello Nebulon and Journey
to Juno, by Ray O’Ryan (Little Simon)
? Hal Clement Award for Young Adult: The Planet Thieves, by Dan
Krokos (Tor Starscape)
Awarded last year
‘I have some understanding as to how Larry Correia and John Scalzi got cross-wise’
Except a substantial portion of your description of that cross-wising turned out to be inaccurate.
@Will: Are we miscommunicating? FWIW, I am widely considered an irritatingly direct and straightforward person who is blunt because he really doesn’t give a damn about whatever is the current decade’s pieties (and I seriously don’t have time for it, given parts of me that would like to kill the rest of me), so if you think there’s some sort of put-on involved at any level, you really ought to re-parse whatever has lead you astray.
Ignoring the vast bulk of Unwin’s post and going for the cheap Wikipedia shot probably didn’t help your case as being entirely upfront.
Gerrold nailed it. We’re being asked to dare…to do the same old thing. Not to grow.
@rick
“@Will: you definitely scare me more than Vox does.
In a bad way, one fervently hopes? ;-> (But thank you. As you may have gathered, I really don’t give a rat’s tuchis what any of various classes of ideologues profess to think about me on the Internet. They can bite my ankles all the want.)”
Can I be forgiven for thinking this was about me since it was directed to me?
@rick Perhaps we are miscommunicating. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough earlier in my “technically not anti-Semitic” comment that I thought you sounded like an apologist. I thought I’d checked it with you and that you’d responded accordingly, but perhaps I’m wrong. I’ll check again.
@rick Maybe we can posit that the Nuremberg trials were dogpiling? Pun fully intended.
@rick You know what I’m tired of? People playing with stuff like that, acting like it’s just an intellectual exercise. Go read some Kurt Vonnegut.
@Will: Can I be forgiven for thinking this was about me since it was directed to me?
OK, I’m sorry you thought that. It most certainly wasn’t directed to you. Elsewhere on this File770.com thread, I had replied to @Rachel to thank her for reassuring me that she wasn’t trying to ‘pressure’ me to shun particular people, thanking her but saying I generally saw said tactic attempted only against women (including my wife Deirdre) and almost never men, and that the only half-assed attempt on me I was aware of was a bunch of pseudonymous types on LJ (including at least one File770 regular) pronouncing hilariously incorrect guesses about me and dictating what a horrific person I was (as did another bunch that includes sometimes SFF author and enforced-shunning artisan Ann Somerville).
You said Theo Beale would be on my case; I was just saying I really am not impressed by the alleged threat of Internet ideologues of any description, irrespective of what faction they claim to growl for. That was not a reference to you.
Anyway, since you think I’m scarier than Mr. Beale, I honestly have no clue why, but doubt this is of public significance. If you think otherwise, by all means go ahead and elaborate.
@rick This is the basic problem here, IMHO, and I thank you for helping me arrive at it: we’re not talking about arguments–we’re talking about people. I see very little acknowledgment of that from Day on down in lessening degrees.
“You can’t even pay for straight lines as good as that.”
I am not asking you to take Wikipedia as an unassailable source. I pointed to the Wikipedia article because it contains direct quotations from a range of academic sources that give definitions of anti-semitism. I then used one of these definitions as a basis to show you a number of specific examples of where the writing of “Vox Day” fits unambiguously with this definition of anti-semitism, which is what you originally requested. Can I ask whether you believe that these examples are sufficient to make the accusation of anti-semitism stick?
@rick You scare me worse because I don’t think you realize what you’re playing with. Vox knows very well.
@rick But I do thank you for the clarification, and I accept it.
@Will: I have no idea who you are, Mr. first-name-only, and very much don’t give squat what unspeakably bad thing you profess to think I sound like. Nor am I ‘playing with’ my suggestion that people bother to provide at least qty. one specific example if they’re going to go around calling people nasty names (especially when they do so from behind cover of Internet pseudonyms).
And, by the way, I grew up on Vonnegut. Vonnegut was a figurative friend of mine. And you, sir, are no Vonnegut. (For one thing among many others, he put his name on what he wrote.)
Rick Moen
[email protected]
I think, with only a very, very little thought, one may readily come up with some extremely good reasons why people might use pseudonyms on the internet.
Indeed, one can think of a dozen strong, plausible, and excellent reasons without getting anywhere near “cowardice”.