Welpendämmerung 6/13

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aka Operas in The Collar Cycle by Wagger, also including Das Whinegold, Die Walkies, and Sig-Flea’d

Saturday’s roundup brings you Matthew Foster, Gray Rinehart, Gary McGath, Allum Bokhari, Vox Day, Barry Deutsch, Adam-Troy Castro, A (W) Hendry, Tom Knighton, Eric Flint, George R.R. Martin, Lis Carey, Spacefaring Kitten, Russell Blackford and Ken Richards. (Title credit belongs to File 770 contributing editors of the day Octavia, Camestros Felapton and Kyra, as inspired by Scott Frazer’s original idea.)

Matthew Foster at Foster on Film

“What’s the Point? Human Minds and Sad Puppies” – June 13

So, how does this end? Not with Eric persuading or David Gerrold’s call for respect. Not with valentines saying “All is forgiven” and kumbayas. We, humans, are creatures of grudges. We should try to be better beings, but never forget reality while doing so. Those who forget history…

There will be no ending, no defined finish. But there can be, and almost certainly will be, a fading. There will be fewer articles, fewer rants, fewer votes cast for political reasons. It can gently drift away until it is a footnote. Or it can lessen, but still split fandom for years to come. How this works out depends on how it fades. If enthusiasm dies quicker from the anti-pups, the results will be less equality than in recent years, a continuation of the dominance of white authors, a touch less innovation in known writers, a reduction in the quality of writing, and a greater acceptance of minor racism and sexism in fandom, (keeping in mind those grand statements only apply to awards and to a corner of fantasy and science fiction fandom—the Pups are not going to be altering racism in general society—so how big a deal this is to you depends on how close you are to that corner). If it dies quicker in the Pups, things will float closer to how they were: increasing equality, a lessening of dominance of white authors, more innovation, and greater condemnation of racism and sexism (still just in our pocket of fandom—again, don’t get too excited by those lofty phrases). Either way, the effects will not be that large, except for The Hugos, where the awards will lose some of their prestige if the Pups end up more on top, and slowly gain most of it back if the Pups end up on bottom.

Of course things could get worse. New Pup leaders could arise who have the charm of Vox and the mouth of Larry. We could start getting death threats and rape threats.

I expect a very slow fade, with people snapping at each other for a few years at least, and grumbling when alone with their colleagues for many years. I hope the Pups will fade faster, but as it will be most likely determined by general fatigue, there’s no way to know. One “side” could fade faster (keeping in mind there really is only one side to this mess—the Pups are the side; everybody else are just fans who got stuck in a fight they didn’t ask for) if its leaders faded. If Vox or Brad or Larry were to go through some life change, or just get caught up in other matters, the Pups would fade faster and we’d have less Puppy smell. There are no leaders in the fans who dislike the pups, but some, like John Scalzi, David Gerrold, and George R.R. Martin might have more of an effect if they walked away in disgust.

So, what’s my point? Why do I write all these words over so many posts? Partly it is an obsession to support what I think is right, even when it will make very little difference. Partly it is because I know how she felt about the Pups, and would feel about their mess, though she’d have said a great deal less about it. Partly it is to help out friends. Partly it is to whip up the troops as I’d prefer less Puppy smell. Partly it is to be part of the community. But mainly, for me, it is a distraction. Because this was Eugie’s world, it feels a little important, and because it is not what I spent my time doing before, it doesn’t feel lonely, which makes it a good distraction. And that is the point.

 

Gray Rinehart on GhostWriter

“Halfway to the Hugos” – June 13

To aid the casual reader, here’s what I plan to cover in this overly-long post: – My disappointment, but also my ambivalence, at the way things have been characterized – The metaphor I’ve most recently developed to describe the situation I’m in – Some Scripture verses I am trying to hold on to as this process unfolds – My regret at being unable to attend the upcoming ceremony Forewarned is forearmed. Now, knowing what’s coming, if you don’t want to read the rest that’s perfectly fine…..

When the plane landed in Nomination City, some of us were surprised, because we expected to land in Passed-Over-Ville. (Every other time people have told me they nominated one of my stories, I haven’t even made the post-award long list, so I didn’t expect this time to be any different.)

It seemed that the plane had been hijacked. When the flight subsequently took off from Nomination City, en route to Hugotown, the reaction to the hijacking was loud and angry. Some passengers snuck off the plane during the Nomination City stop, and a couple bailed out later; I’m not sure yet if their parachutes worked, if they made safe landings, or if anyone has picked them up out of the wilderness. I hope they’re okay.

The more it looked like a hijacking, the more some people on the ground talked as if they wanted to shoot down the plane; some of them seem determined to do so, even if only with their own personal weapons. Just as worrisome, some of the hijackers have talked as if they want to crash the plane in the middle of Hugotown. My fellow passengers and I are left to wonder if there’s anything we can do to improve our chances of survival.

I’ve been in touch with my friends, both inside and outside the community of fans, throughout the ordeal. Those who contributed to my ticket or who like my work or who support me personally almost all told me that they want me to stay aboard, and ride it out. One person advised me to bail out, parachute or no. Outside my relatively small circle of family and friends, from what I can tell quite a few spectators are glued to their computer screens, watching every agonizing minute of the event; I don’t know if they care a whole lot what happens to me or the other passengers….

Some Closing Thoughts. Whenever we value something highly, when we have invested time or treasure in it and derived some reward (however intangible) from it, and that thing is threatened in some way, we rightly resent and are justified in trying to defend against the threat. That is true whether we are talking about our families and friendships, our homes and personal property, our reputations, or institutions with which we identify. I think sometimes we forget that others have the same right, to defend those things which they value.

Based on that, I understand the impulse on the part of longtime WorldCon participants and serious fen to protect the institution and its flagship award. I understand that barbarians storming the gates, brazenly and with unexpected success, is frightening and naturally foments resentment and anger.

I choose the barbarian example deliberately. Outsiders are labeled barbarians not because that is what they call themselves, but because their language is incomprehensible to the insiders — to the refined ears of the citizens it sounds like “bar-bar-bar” (which among science fiction convention-goers is not, in itself, damning). But the outsiders do have language and culture, however strange it may seem to the citizens: from their own point of view they are not barbarians but Goths, Visigoths, or Ostrogoths; Celts, Huns, or Vandals.

This year’s Hugo-nominating barbarians, unlike historical tribes characterized as such, brought alms with which they gained entry into the city and bought their citizenship: the $40 Supporting Membership. And they brought their own opinions — perhaps studiously formed, perhaps informed or even influenced by others – which they expressed in the nomination process. They joined the community, but some of the original citizens still see them as barbarians, as outsiders, and seethe. I understand that, and I have seen the results in some of the reviews and comments about my own nominated story.

So I offer this: Reading should be a pleasure and a joy, and if any Hugo Award voter is upset at the way my novelette wound up on the ballot and has not read it yet, I encourage them and give them my full permission to ignore my entry completely.

 

Gary McGath on Building My World

“On the Sad Puppies” – June 13

I’ve kept my distance from the “Sad Puppies” controversy in the Hugo Awards. I’m not registered for the upcoming World Science Fiction Convention, and I don’t follow a lot of current science fiction, so I couldn’t cast an informed vote without a lot of extra work. I have noticed quite a bit of nastiness from the anti-Puppy faction, including sniping at the people nominated because of the Sad Puppy and Rabid Puppy slates. If you dislike the methods of promotion, that’s fine, but attacking people for being nominated and failing to decline the nomination isn’t. It exemplifies the growing illiberalism and intolerance that I’ve seen in fandom….

There’s an outside chance that my Tomorrow’s Songs Today could be nominated next year in the category of “best related work,” and I’ve thought about whether I’d want that. Some people would very likely lump me, because of my views, with the Puppy faction, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a few alleged friends turn on me. If it happens, I think I’d do more good by giving them reasoned responses than by running away from the situation.

 

Allum Bokhari on Breitbart.com

“TORpedoed! Media narrative on Hugo Awards incorrect, says Tor Books founder” – June 13

Because their chief opponents were a set of hard-line progressive authors hell-bent on ostracizing anyone who challenged their ideology, the Puppies were attacked by multiple media outlets as a force of ‘white male reaction’.

This panicked narrative has taken yet another blow after an intervention by Tim Dohety, the founder and president of Tor books, one of the most influential publishing houses in sci-fi. Writing on the Tor’s blog, the 43-year veteran of the publishing industry acknowledged that media stories portraying the Sad Puppies as a racist, sexist campaign aimed at promoting white men was entirely inaccurate.

 

Vox Day on Vox Popoli

“Bokhari on the Tor debacle” – June 13

We are admittedly making some minor, if encouraging, dents in the ongoing SJW onslaught. But while we should be encouraged, we should not be complacent or think that what we have accomplished will not be undone in a heartbeat if we stop paying attention and slip back into pushover mode.

And while it’s great to see the Publisher at the largest SF/F publishing house disavowing the SJW thought-policing in which some of Tor’s editors have engaged for the last decade or more, that doesn’t mean that he is absolved of the need to get his house in order. I have heard, from different sources this time, that Tor Books is very much concerned about the prospect of a boycott, particularly one that is supported by SF/F authors.

Which is interesting, because so far they have been unwilling to do the one thing that will end the matter. Indeed, Tor Books appears to have decided to stand by the broad spectrum insults of its Creative Director and its Associate Publisher. So, let’s see what Macmillan will do. And if they won’t do anything either, well, at least we will know that we gave them every chance to avoid what they apparently wish to avoid.

The key to Tor’s intransigence is their belief that the “thousands of emails” they have received are from “bots”. This is the same narrative #GamerGate has encountered to attempt to minimize its numbers. Therefore, we will need to find a way to demonstrate to Macmillan that those “thousands of emails” represent “thousands of bookbuyers”.

 

 

Adam-Troy Castro on Facebook – June 12

You know, there are an awful lot of people weighing in on this Sad Puppy situation, and it’s impossible to single out the very stupidest thing anybody’s said, not when some of the more stupid things actually qualify as signs of mental illness. But Edward Trimnell’s characterization of the kind of fiction the Sad Puppies think they’re advocating against, as excerpted on File 770 this morning, is certainly a monument.

 

A (W) Hendry

“Totally No Homophobe” – June 13

….Now, I’m not saying that straight white dudes don’t have it slightly easier than everyone else -we live in a society where the ruling class have fostered racism, sexism, and homophobia for centuries to suit their own ends- but the portrayal of heterosexuality, whiteness, or maleness as privileges has the effect of turning our focus away from the things we should be fighting -oppression, injustice, capitalism and class society- onto those things that we can not, and should not, fight -ourselves. The privileges identified by those who take an intersectional approach are unlike the privilege that 99% of the population think of when they hear the term: economic privilege. Unlike economic privilege these privileges can be neither given up nor adopted –no matter how hard some may try– and so, in practical terms, all a focus on them can do is turn introspection into a form of faux activism. It also has the effect of making those with the privileges the centre of attention -which is probably why it is so popular with white middle class kids- rather than the people experiencing the various manifestations of oppression…..

Now, to segue wildly back towards the topic of the Puppies and internet shit squalls, people like John C Wright and Theodore Beale serve a social purpose. They are there to be mocked and to have the piss taken out of them. That is their purpose and that is the full extent of that purpose. Engaging with them in any way beyond this is a distraction from engaging in actual political activity -something that suits them and their ilk down to the ground- and creating a society that has solidarity at its heart and which therefore would be a place unwelcoming of those who would seek to undermine that solidarity. If that’s what a person wants rather than merely wanting to have their ego stroked.

When people like the Puppies pipe up, as they inevitably will, just point, laugh, and carry on not buying their books.

 

 

Eric Flint

“BRING THE STRUCTURE OF THE HUGO AWARDS INTO THE MODERN WORLD” – June 13

…Today, that structure is hopelessly outdated. Short form fiction is now a very small part of fantasy and science fiction, whether you measure that in terms of money—where it’s now a tiny percentage of the income authors receive—or in terms of readership. It’s certainly a larger percentage of the readers than it is of income, but it’s not more than 10% and it’s probably closer to 5%.

People who are active in fandom are often surprised to hear this and sometimes think it’s nonsense, but that’s because reading short fiction is much more common in fandom than it is in the general audience for F&SF. There are many more people who only read novels than there are people who read any short fiction at all, much less do something like subscribe to a magazine or regularly read anthologies of short fiction…..

But there is a grain of truth lurking beneath their claim, because it is in fact true that there is a quite heavy bias against popular authors in the way the awards are determined—the Nebulas as much the Hugos. That’s not due to anything conscious on anyone’s part, and it’s not due to any sort of deliberate bias or discrimination. It’s simply inherent in the divergence between the reality of the market and the structure of the awards.

When most popular authors work exclusively or almost exclusively in series or multi-volume works like trilogies and quartets (and quintets, and sextets) and 75% of the awards are given out for short fiction, then it is inevitable that most popular authors will never get a Hugo or Nebula award….

I’d recommend replacing the existing four awards with seven, as follows:

Short Story. Anything up to 7,500 words.

Novelette. Between 7,500 and 17,500 words.

Novella. Between 17,400 words and 40,000 words.

Short Novel. Between 40,000 and 80,000 words.

Novel. Any length above 80,000 words so long as it remains within one cover, if it’s a paper edition. If only an electronic edition exists, it cannot exceed 300,000 words (which is pretty much the effective limit of a paper edition).

Multi-volume Stories. Any length above 80,000 words provided: a) it is divided into at least two volumes in paper editions none of which is shorter than 80,000 words or is more than 300,000 words if it exists only in an electronic edition. And b) it must be a completed work.

 

George R.R. Martin on Not A Blog

“Hugo Voting Continues” – June 13

Both supporting and attending members get an electronic “Hugo packet” that will enable you to read many of the works nominated for this year’s rockets. You should do that, no matter what side of the Puppy Wars you are on; we want informed voters. Yes, sadly, IMNSHO this is the weakest Hugo ballot in recent memory, thanks to the Puppy slates… but there’s still some damn strong work there, especially in Novel and Dramatic Presentation. And of course it is possible that your own tastes may differ from mine. So join, read, vote. And fifty years from now, when your fannish grandchildren ask you, “Say, gramps, what did you do in the Great Hugo War?” you’ll have an answer for them.

 

Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library

“Departure Gate 34B, by Kary English” – June 13

Kary English is a nominee for the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer. This is a gentle, melancholy story about a ghost who doesn’t know they’re now a ghost, and the surviving spouse who still loves, but is ready to move on. Enjoyable, even if not a stand-out.

 

 

Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring Extradimensional Happy Kittens

“Dave ‘Cool Beard but Incoherent Rants’ Freer” – June 12

Okay, let’s start with something positive: Freer has managed to include in the Hugo package one blog post that is actually about SFF books and in which the acronym SJW is mentioned (in the comments) only once. Well done!

Freer seems passionate, and I do like passionate people. Too bad he’s passionate about things I find reprehensible, such as defending sexism with this incoherent rant which consists of satire quotes of nobody knows what and run-of-the-mill anti-feminist bullshit that never stops to make an understandable point. The post is turbocharged with obscure references to cases of supposed “misandry” I may not be familiar with. However, after reading the post, I wasn’t inclined to do any research.

 

Russell Blackford on Metamagician and The Hellfire Club

“’Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Earth to Alluvium’ by Gray Rinehart – Hugo Award voting 2015” – June 13

This is another work nominated in “Best Novelette”, and again we have a competent, thoughtful, but not especially distinguished, space adventure. The underlying theme involves conflict between humans and technologically advanced aliens, in this case the Peshari, a lizard-like bunch with a taste for open skies and a morbid distaste (or more than that) for anything to do with digging into the ground. By my standards, which are not binding on anybody else, “Ashes to Ashes” suffers from being far too talky.

 

Ken Richards on learning the world, one step at a time

“TOM Kratman’s anti war polemic” – June 13

Assembled as a blank slate, ‘newbie’ Maggie is thrust through a vile ‘Boot Camp’ experience, which manipulates and transforms her from an innocent lover of flowers, to a pitiless, immoral killer, always following orders, no matter how reprehensible her actions may be. The sequence recalls the Paris Island Act of ‘Full Metal Jacket’, as we Kratman tells how soldiers are broken as humans and remoulded into unquestioning killers and followers of orders in that age old practice of brutalisation, intended to strip away the since of self, and replace it with the sense of the machine. The final ‘Full Metal Jacket’ reference is saved for the final act, where the scrap metal dealer, the general and the politician (deliberately generic, one-dimensional characters, in contrast to the betrayed heroine) receive, like the brutal drill sergeant, their just reward. Bravo Sir.

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669 thoughts on “Welpendämmerung 6/13”

  1. @David Goldfarb

    Thank you! I only ever remember the ampersand bit, but this time I will be prepared and save the link to your comment for future reference, if only because typing [pointy triangle] that many times on an iPad got very tedious… But mostly because its useful to be able to explain things clearly.

  2. I am not at all sure I like the idea of “best saga,” given the wobbly nature of the definition.

    I think I am more inclined to breaking up the novel category the way shorter stories are broken up, by word count, so, say “Shorter Novel” at 70,000 words or fewer, “Mid-Length Novel” at 70,000-140,000, and “Longer Novel” at 140,000 words +.

    Please be advised I am pulling these numbers out of my backside and have no idea how representative they actually are.

  3. junego on June 14, 2015 at 3:34 pm said:
    ARGH! Nevermind my post. I’m still not caught up and should have read further before responding. I will now return to the past and read the responses and conversation about this issue from 8 hours ago.

  4. Re: The ongoing discussion over at the Ken Richards review.

    Do cybernetic tanks breastfeed?

    Suddenly having a really sad thought of a retelling of Dumbo where the Mama Tank has to be destroyed after she goes rogue to protect her offspring.

  5. junego on June 14, 2015 at 3:41 pm said:

    junego on June 14, 2015 at 3:34 pm said:
    ARGH! Nevermind my post. I’m still not caught up

    That’s okay. These threads are galloping along and time-disjointed conversations are not uncommon. Your contributions are still helpful, in my opinion.

  6. Meredith — I know it. Sometimes I just have to call it out when I see such rampant bullshit.

    Happy-Puppy — The “run” part of “post-and-run” has less to do with frequency, as to the habit of posting without reading or answering. As in this case, where you responded to a minor point in the first sentence and completely ignored the rest of my comment.

  7. PIMMN: I am not at all sure I like the idea of “best saga,” given the wobbly nature of the definition.

    I’m not massively keen on it because I think I’d need longer to read 100,000 words plus the entries for the other categories in the time allowed before voting. It might be biting off more than I could chew, unless the saga was one I’d already read. You do not want to know how long it took me to read the Silmarillion.

    I know, that sounds so wimpy, but my reading speed has got slower as I’ve got older. And I don’t even have a job to fill up my time.

  8. This thread, with the Golden Dawn numerology, and UNIX permissions, has convinced me that no matter what Schoolhouse Rock taught me, 770, not 3, is a magic number.

  9. Since y’all are discussing categories and I’m here lurking—I think it would be cool to have a poetry category. Or maybe a short forms category, which could include poetry and flash fiction and the like. I’ve seen a lot of good stuff out there, in Strange Horizons and Interfictions and elsewhere.

  10. Ultragotha: “I give you Anna Russell – The Ring of the Nederlandse Kooikerhondje”

    Oh you beauty. I’ve long loved Anna Russell but it’s always wonderful to introduce new people to her, and the Ring summary is simply a masterpiece

  11. I don’t like the idea of Best Saga (or any multi-volume awards) or the idea of removing one of the short fiction categories, although I think my reasons for the former are more informed than the reasons for the latter. I wouldn’t mind Best Novel being split into two, but I’m not convinced more splits than that would be a good idea, but again, I feel a lot more informed about disliking the Best Saga suggestion than liking or disliking any of the others. I’m happy to be persuaded. 🙂

  13. Paul Weimer (@princejvstin) on June 14, 2015 at 3:47 pm said:

    This thread, with the Golden Dawn numerology, and UNIX permissions, has convinced me that no matter what Schoolhouse Rock taught me, 770, not 3, is a magic number.

    You just go ahead and try counting by 770.

    It won’t scan. Bet ya.

  14. Mark: “An amusing deconstruction of Nutty Nuggets”

    A very good article.

    I’ve said it elsewhere, but the very act of writing is a political act (and the more so for any group not in the political/power ascendant). Torgersen isn’t just a bore, but a terrible historian.

  17. On the best saga question, I wonder whether anything could be done to aggregate votes for individual books over the series’ entire run? Like say, The Fellowship of the Beatles gets 400 votes in its year of publication, then The Twin Amps gets 350 votes in its year, and finally, The Return of Elvis, the King gets 600 votes in its year, so the total votes for the trilogy is 1350 votes at the end of the decade. Maybe average the votes so that longer series don’t have the advantage, for a 450 vote average for The Lord of the Chords.

    Which would work for trilogies and even dekalogs with definite ends, but I guess something like the SaucerWorld books which just carries on until the author retires to the big con in the sky wouldn’t get rewarded with the saga Hugo until the author is beyond caring, which is missing half the point, really.

  18. Oh! Best ultra-short category! That sounds cool. Then you could get a Hugo for a really brilliant Tweet.

    Although, now that I think about it, maybe not so great. Hmm.

    I admit that my initial guess about what File770 means had to do with Unix permissions, probably because my official Day Jobbe title is Web Developer. But, you know, I also know how to do things like click links and Google, so I didn’t labor under that misapprehension for very long.

    That’s why the conspiracy theory business seems so daft. The notion that you could know what 770 means in Unix permissions, but not know how to easily find out what the real answer is… yeah, that just doesn’t make any sense. I knew how to click a link or use a search engine WELL before I knew what a Unix permission was.

  19. Re: mistakes that jar the reader out of the story

    Many years ago I settled down to read a mystery set in London, and a few pages into the story the heroine returned to her flat in the Barbican and switched on her gas fire.

    I live in the Barbican and none of the flats have gas; I just couldn’t get back into the story after that, so I can see that anyone living in Chicago might well have a similar problem with the Dresden files.

    There are other ways of generating ‘no way is this for me’ responses; I have very little tolerance for ‘the hero is obviously the hero because everyone else is an idiot’ approach, which is why ‘The Dark Between the Stars’ is downright painful, but obviously other people are happy with it.

    Perhaps they prefer fiction which doesn’t have anything other than goodies and baddies, proceeding in an orderly fashion to an obvious destination, in which case they are not going to be happy in a universe which has Signy Mallory in it.

    Much of the silliness of the sads/bads is directed at writers and fans who don’t want to sign up for ‘The One True Way’ school of fiction; it is as if the mere existence of fiction which is a bit more complicated than that threatens them in some way. I really don’t understand this; after all, much of the stuff produced by Wright and Beale is genuinely threatening, yet I certainly don’t seek to shut them up.

    I find Wright’s inventiveness somewhat unnerving; another day, another justification for murdering people, just as Beale’s another day, another justification for throwing acid in women’s faces. I suppose the pair of them don’t like people pointing out that these are distinctly disordered thoughts for two men claiming to be Christians, but they cannot be so dull as to imagine that nobody’s going to notice. Colour me baffled…

  20. @John Seavey

    Jack Lint said: “Why didn’t the Beagles carry the ring to Mordor?”
    I originally read this as the Beatles, and am now off to write the BEST FANFIC EVER.

    It needs to work in a “Frodo Lives” – “Paul is dead” reference.

    I’ve sung at quite a few weddings (in one of Stanford’s choirs – half of whom probably know more about Unix permissions than the emvoweled one) and I don’t believe I’ve seen any cummerbunds – my mental association for that is “teenage boy at a prom”.

  21. To NelC: in the last thread I responded to Rev. Bob at 11:55pm june13 about yhe fact that I overreacted to Meredith and I thanked him for using humor to gently mock and chastise me.

    I can understand that you might have missed my reply given the number of posts. But I also don’t want to fall imto a pattern of having to respond or apologize multiple times each time I make an error if I’ve already acknowledged the error.

    I’ve also noted that it is pointless to respond to ad hominem attacks. I’m paraphrasing as I don’t wish to waste time lookng backwards but when someone said in prior thread that I wouldn’t recognize a Hugo worthy novel and I admitted to only having read 84 novels nominated for a Hugo, someone else commented that that just proved that I am very poorly read in the field of SFF.

    So in order not to start negative feedback loops, I thought it best not to respond to the pot you mentioned because I had already done so.

  23. On Unix stupidity: After Matrix Reloaded came out, I could “prove” that the Matrix ran on some flavour of *nix based on how the keymaker’s power worked. That never made me smart though.

  24. @ Meredith

    So, American types, how widespread are morning suits over there?

    The only reason I know what they are is because I worked in the costume department of a large community theatre and had to sew one. In other words: not at all.

  25. I think that the major problem the Best Saga proposal seeks to address is that the characteristic strength of the really long series – extensive and detailed worldbuilding – is not that of the shorter novel, which has more classical strengths like unity of action (not that a single novel can’t exhibit excellent worldbuilding, but an author who puts all that effort into the background doesn’t want to waste it, which makes for an aesthetic as well as a financial argument for turning such a novel into a series). As a single unit, a book in a series will typically suffer (because of lack of unity of action) compared to the best standalone novel in a given year.

    I don’t have strong feelings either way about the proposal. The past few years have had series books win several times (AJ, Blackout/All Clear, Spin, Paladin of Souls), but I don’t think those are really the kind of series the authors of the proposal are thinking of.

    Series as a norm are a result of incentive structures for authors changing, from the 1960s to 1980s model of serialization followed by MMPB publication to publication in HC or trade paperback with associated advances. It’s possible that the e-book model will bring back shorter work as a result of self-publishing or publishing by groups like tor.com making multiple shorter installments more appealing again.

    I think the big question is whether the WSFS and the fandom it represents want a mechanism which will more regularly reward writers like Brust, Butcher, Weber, Gladstone and Jacka or whether they want one which omits that because of the blurriness of the lines involved.

  26. Regarding flash fiction, it feels somehow inappropriate to award a full-on Hugo to a single piece. At the same time, I’d love it if there were a way to recognize things like what MicroSFF is posting on Twitter.

    Help, please — there have been so many good recommendations in the past few days, I apparently forgot to wishlist/bookmark one of the ones I noted. What I remember of it is that it was urban fantasy (?) and the narrator of the audiobook sounded a bit like Idris Elba. Does this ring a bell for anybody?

  30. More on HTML tags, using square brackets instead of angles:
    [em] [/em] – visually italics, but people with voice readers will hear a difference. emphasis
    [strong] [/strong] – bold with a voice difference strong
    [strike] [/strike] – strikethrough strikethrough

  31. @ LordMelvin
    Just to counterpoint @Gabriel F.’s comment to @Spellproof, I strongly recommend against starting with Storm Front if you’re trying to get a feel for the Dresden books – it’s the first book chronologically, sure, but it’s got a lot of that ‘first-novel’ sloppiness that still needs to be worn off the writing, and Jim didn’t quite have the ‘feel’ for his characters like he picked up after he’d gotten going a bit. I usually recommend people start with book 4, ‘Summer Knight’, then if they like it, go back and start from 1.

    Boy. Summer Knight is actually my favorite, but I think you’d be lost as hell jumping in the middle of that. In a book with so much strong continuity, my vote is always to start with the first story. I think Storm Front is much less noticeable as a sloppier book when it’s the first one you read. Going back on a re-read, all the warts show up. I’d hate to start off with a really strong book and go back to the weaker first book.

  32. How about a tiny little Hugo for flash fiction? Actually, the whole thing could be set up that way: progressively larger Hugos based on length of work. The proposed Best Saga Hugo would have to go home on a flatbed.
    I suppose that for Dramatic Presentation you could give a picture of a Hugo or, possibly, a small troupe of actors.

  33. @Bruce Baugh, I have heard of that, now that I think of it. Lots of good reads on their list, and I’m glad to be reminded of it. Still, I think if there can be Hugos for novella and novelette, or short novel and long novel, why not for poetry and flash? It would be recognizing forms that have become more popular in the last couple decades.

  34. Thank you to everyone who replied about morning suits. 🙂

    @Happy-Puppy

    I find it difficult to see where you acknowledged and apologised for over-reacting in your original comment, but I’m happy to grant the benefit of the doubt that its what you meant even if its not what you said. Apology accepted.

  35. I suppose that for Dramatic Presentation you could give a picture of a Hugo or, possibly, a small troupe of actors.

    For Best Dramatic Long From, the winner will receive the award in the form of an interpretive dance, presented in three parts. For Best Dramatic Short Form they will receive a vine of the Hugo sitting inertly on the table, filmed in black and while a sad clown cries in the background.

  36. In my experience, morning suits are virtually unknown in the USA. White tie is rare — offhand, I can’t think of an occasion when I’ve seen anyone in a tailcoat in the past 20 years who wasn’t on stage (mostly conductors, when the rest of the ensemble is wearing tuxes or the female equivalent). I wear my tuxedo more often than I wear a regular suit, and always with a cummerbund, which is standard USA usage, because if I didn’t have on the cummerbund, then people would be able to see the shirt button between my trouser waistband and the lowest of the shirt studs.
    What I still haven’t been able to accept as appropriate is the increasingly-common wearing of four-in-hand neckties instead of bowties with tuxedos; they just look bizarrely wrong to me, as if the person wearing them didn’t know how to dress themself. Even black shirts with tuxes are better than the wrong kind of tie.
    I’ve given up on being disgruntled by pre-tied bowties worn with wing collars so that the hook is visible.

  37. L, the usual argument is that a lot of Hugo voters just don’t read enough poetry to form a meaningful judgment. As it is, a bunch of the categories get a fraction of the votes others do, and it’s a genuine concern. But maybe there are more poetry-reading nominators and voters (current or potential) than folks know, too.

  38. @P J Evans

    Thanks for the emphasis tag. I didn’t know about it and I’d rather my posts were accessible.

  39. To Meredith: I have a morning suit. But it is/was rarely used. Most people no longer require formal dress at garden parties.

  40. CJ Cherryh’s Foreigner series works in 3 book cycles; she has completed 5 cycles, and volume 16 ‘Tracker’ starts another cycle which would be a great place to start for anyone who doesn’t want to read all of the previous 15 novels.

    I’m really surprised that people can’t see the value of a Hugo for series and sagas; everyone seems to want to retain a system which was fine for the market 50 years ago but ignores what people want to read now.

    The present system can reasonably be described as archaic and yet, notwithstanding the fact that the reason we are commenting is because someone gamed an archaic system, the consensus seems to be that we carry on pretending that it’s OK really, even when we know that it’s almost impossible to sell a stand alone novel to a publisher…

  41. Pluviann on June 14, 2015 at 9:19 am said:

    I have really mixed feelings about the Best Saga category proposed in the link above. I really don’t like the idea off voting for work that isn’t finished yet. Lot’s of long ‘saga’ type stories start of strong and then fall apart for various reasons. I don’t want to vote for something on book 4 that’s great; only for it to be rubbish by book 9, and totally unfinished at book 11 when the author stops publishing.

    I have mixed feelings about Flint’s hypothetical proposal and about the particular Saga proposal. I like the idea of adding a short novel, the multi-volume thing has more bumps in the road for me.

    For both Flint and the Saga proposal, a big issue I see is about how a member who wasn’t already a reader of the nominated series, sagas, epics, etc would be able to do their due diligence in order to vote. On one hand, I think the new categories would probably end up being voted on almost exclusively by those who already read them regularly, which might not be a good result. On the other hand, the new categories might spark interest and involvement among fans who do seek out and read such vehicles as their preferred form

    It’s also true that the forms of novels/stories fans read have changed significantly and discussing whether or how the Hugos should change is appropriate.

  42. @ Stevie

    Re: mistakes that jar the reader out of the story

    One of my best friends and I went to go see I Am Legend, which we greatly enjoyed despite it having only a nodding acquaintance with the original text… well, we enjoyed it right up until the Studio Interference Big Summer Action Explosion Fight moment. Anyway.

    My friend is a veterinary technician. Apparently Robert draws blood from the dark seeker into a vial with the wrong colored top. When the Christian Insert Lady and Imperiled Child show up at the human community, she holds up this wrong-capped vial and the blood inside is still liquid, which it would not be.

    My friend lost it. She was so mad that a movie could have a multiple million dollar budget and not run a single google search, or phone up a phlebotomist, and get a detail that small correct. It was a topic of very angry dinner conversation after the movie!

  43. Leslie C on June 14, 2015 at 4:29 pm said:

    How about a tiny little Hugo for flash fiction? Actually, the whole thing could be set up that way: progressively larger Hugos based on length of work.

    George R. R. Martin, who has won Hugos for Short Story, Novelette, and Novella, jokingly complained about never having won “the big one” (for Best Novel). In response to this, at the closing ceremonies of Torcon 3, where he was Guest of Honor, George was presented with a taller-than-human-height inflatable rocket ship.

  44. @Stevie

    Its more that I think the burden on voters and nominators would be excessive. Its unreasonable to expect people to fork out the cash for three-fifteen (or more!) novels times five once voting starts, and be able to finish them before the voting deadline. I’m not convinced there’s a lot of voters out there who’d feel comfortable enough in their knowledge of multiple multi-volume series’ to nominate, either. I liked the idea when I first heard it but the problems people have raised just keep piling up.

  45. Gabriel F

    A nightmare to tailor, that’s for sure; I’m impressed.

    I should perhaps explain that I have experience in this; my visit to Chicago many years ago was to the World Costume Convention, which was amazingly good fun. Fortunately the customs did not wish to inspect the contents of my suitcases; explaining that I was carrying large numbers of Baltic squirrel pelts to demonstrate that it was indeed possible to simultaneously wear 4 or 5 robes all lined with Baltic squirrel, and have no difficulty in standing up in them.

    This was to resolve a long running dispute between costume historians who had been influenced by recent types of fur to believe it impossible; confronted with the evidence they accepted they had been wrong, which is what scholarship, and the love for one’s subject, is all about. It as great fun and I learned such a lot from people!
    ,

  46. @Gabriel F.:

    My friend lost it. She was so mad that a movie could have a multiple million dollar budget and not run a single google search, or phone up a phlebotomist, and get a detail that small correct.

    In the very last X-Files episode I bothered to watch, Scully was summoned to a closed session of a Senate sub-committee. She went without a lawyer. At that point I said, “Look, guys, if you don’t care, I don’t care either.” And never watched it again.

  47. Happy-Puppy on June 14, 2015 at 4:13 pm said:

    I’m paraphrasing as I don’t wish to waste time lookng backwards but when someone said in prior thread that I wouldn’t recognize a Hugo worthy novel and I admitted to only having read 84 novels nominated for a Hugo, someone else commented that that just proved that I am very poorly read in the field of SFF.

    I had the impression that that particular comment was a response to your comment that although you had read many Hugo nominees you had not read any of the ones of the last twenty years.

  48. The last I checked in on the speculative poetry scene, the quality was pretty dire. Mike Ford was great, but after that… Basically, the Rhysling anthology itself was about as good, overall, as a random literary magazine of non-genre poetry. The actual speculative poetry journals – the ones that didn’t represent the supposed best of the field – were far worse, overall, than the random small litmag. Anyone who ever did time in contemporary poetry knows what an indictment that is.

    But perhaps the field has matured since then.

  49. Stevie on June 14, 2015 at 4:41 pm said:

    even when we know that it’s almost impossible to sell a stand alone novel to a publisher…

    Do we? I hadn’t heard that.

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