aka Puppy on a Hot Tin Roof
Today’s roundup brings you Spacefaring Kitten, Gary Farber, Peter Grant, Tom Knighton, Sgt. Mom, Martin Wisse, David Nickle, Edward Trimnell, John Scalzi, N. K. Jemisin, Neil Clarke, David Gerrold, Ferrett Steinmetz, Jonathan Crowe, Andrew Hickey, Jason Cordova, Nicholas Whyte, Tim Hall, Mari Ness, Kevin Standlee, Mark Ciocco, Lis Carey, Vivienne Raper, and Jonathan Edelstein. (Title credit goes to File 770 contributing editors of the day Daniel Dern and James H. Burns.)
Martin Wisse on Wis[s]e Words
“Having a successful boycott is not the point” – June 21
As I said before, Day is following the Tea Party/Breitbart Culture Wars playbook. Gin up outrage, energise your base, focus their attention on the designated enemy, then fleece the suckers. Vox knows how the game is played because he’d been working for Worldnet Daily one of the low rent rightwing clearing houses his daddy had set up until he became too loony even for them. What are the odds on the next instructions of Day, as “leader of the Rabid Puppies”, will next issue instructions that the only proper way to boycott Tor is to instead buy books by goodthink publishers like Baen or his own vanity press?
The key is not to win, the key is to keep the fight going and make some money doing so. That’s been the career path for whole generations of roghtwing bloviators: fart out articles and blogposts and books about the evil of libruls and blag your way onto wingnut welfare. But to do so you need that red meat to keep the suckers in line. Without the month late fauxrage at Gallo’s comments the Puppies wouldn’t have anything to talk about. But this? This they can spin out until long after this year’s Hugo results are revealed.
It’s hard to deal with this. Just ignoring it is one option, not giving the oxygen of publicity to these people, but can obviously backfire. You can’t deal with this thinking these are normal fans, and that just ignoring it will starve this “controversy” of the fuel it needs. People like Day (and Larry and Brad) are perfectly capable of keeping the fire stoked indefinitely. Not responding just cedes ground and helps them keep up the pretence that they’re speaking for some imagined silent majority.
Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring Extradimensional Happy Kittens
“Kittens Will Prevail” – June 21
The culture war in science fiction and fantasy fandom is practically over before it even began — and it sure was the lamest war ever. The thing that has been clear for everybody except the Sad Kennelkeepers is that an overwhelming majority of SFF fans, authors and editors are and have always been liberal, in the broad sense of the word.
Yes, a huge part of fandom consists of unpolitical SFF enthusiasts who may from time to time sneer at pro-diversity people who suggest things they find a bit hardline, such as not reading books by straight white males for a year or something, but they’re still open-minded and tolerant. And sure, there are political conservatives in SFF too, but very few of them are interested in really taking any part in the culture war project lead by Larry Correia, Brad R. Torgersen and Vox Day/Theodore Beale, because they’re aficionados first and political activists second or third (and they, too, are mostly open-minded and tolerant). Importing the culture war dynamic somewhere where the other side is missing is not going to end well.
Gary Farber on Facebook – June 21
I can barely skim the Puppy summaries at FILE 770 any more because I literally start to feel physically ill. These people and their utter lack of interest in facts, their lunatic paranoia, their rationales for justifying every kind of tactic and practice on the grounds of imagining and alleging that their enemies do it, their crazy tropes (the Nazis were really left-wing!; Planned Parenthood is genocidal!; Emanuel A.M.E. Church isn’t a black church!; Tor Books is an leftist ideological publisher!”), literally make me sick. John C. Wright: “The other side consists of people at Tor who regard Tor as an instrument of social engineering, an arm of the Democrat Party’s press department, or a weapon in the war for social justice.” That would be why they publish … John C. Wright. Thirteen of his books so far.
Peter Grant on Bayou Renaissance Man
“Latest developments over the Tor imbroglio” – June 21
Speaking of Vox, he’s taken note of speculation from SJW’s and their ilk that the individuals at Tor who’ve been named in connection with the boycott may be at risk of violence. Since I’ve seen not a single reference to that – even the vaguest hint – from our side of the fence, I, like him, can only put it down to paranoia, or an utterly warped, twisted sense of reality (or the lack thereof), or deliberate lying. It’s absolutely insane . . . yet they’re hyping it up. (Edited to add: James Sullivan absolutely nailed the process in a comment at Vox’s place.)
It's funny. David Gerrold said that #SadPuppies are leaderless, but aren't we also supposed to be duped by @voxday?
I'm so confused again
— Tom Knighton (@TheTomKnighton) June 21, 2015
Sgt. Mom on The Daily Brief
“Making Blight at Tor” – June 21
And what ought to be the response of those who feel deeply and personally insulted by employees of Tor, such as MS Gallo, and those who clearly stand in agreement with her ill-considered remarks? And what ought Tor to do, over what they already have done? Clean house seems to be the basic consensus; leaving the precise details up to Tor. And to effect that? Some of the offended recommend and are participating in an outright boycott. Some of them – like me – have tastes that run to other and non-Tor published authors, and haven’t bought anything from Tor in years. Others favor purchasing their favorite Tor authors second-hand, and hitting the authorial tip-jar with a donation. I still have the sense that for many of us – after having weathered numerous comments along the same line as MS Gallo’s without much complaint – this was just the final straw.
David Nickle on The Devil’s Exercise Yard
“Art Lessons” – June 21
It seems to me that the life of my father Lawrence is a good example to bring up right now, in this very political culture war about what is at its root, an art form. The point of doing art, to paraphrase Neil Gaiman, is to make good art. It is not to chase awards, or other sorts of validation; it is not to look enviously at those who do receive those awards, who bask in that validation, and try to supplant them through forces democratic or otherwise.
It would be naive to say that such things don’t happen in communities of proper artists. They do, again and again, and are happening now in this science fiction and fantasy community of proper artists.
But I think my father would have said that the behaviour of the Puppies whether sad or angry, is the one sure sign of not being a proper artist. He would take it as a vulgar sign of weakness. It would earn his quiet but certain contempt.
Edward Trimnell
“Boycott Tor Books, you ask?” – June 21
A few readers have recently emailed me to ask if I plan to join the boycott of Tor Books, or if I publicly support the boycott.
The short answer is: No. But let me give you the longer answer—because this covers some important issues.
First of all: I am on record as disagreeing with the positions of Patrick Nielsen Hayden and John Scalzi. (I’ve taken Mr. Scalzi to task on this blog many times.) I’m not as familiar with Moshe Feder and Irene Gallo. But what I have seen of them so far, I don’t evaluate favorably.
That said, I think the boycott is a bad idea. And here’s why:
I dislike the Internet mob—whether it is a rightwing mob, or a leftwing mob. I dislike the Internet’s hive mindset, which says:
“If you say something we don’t like, we’re going to whip up all of our minions into a frenzy, and then destroy your livelihood, or harass you into silence at the very least. Oh—and we’re going to do all of this anonymously, hiding behind bogus screen names, avatars, and IP addresses! And aren’t we courageous!”
That is, of course, exactly what the SJW crowd does. But I’m not one of them—and I’m not a joiner, either. Just because I disagree with John Scalzi & Co. doesn’t mean that I’m eager to flock to the banner of Vox Day and others on the far right.
John Scalzi on Whatever
“Note to WSFS Members: Killing the Best Novelette Hugo is a Terrible Idea” – June 21
[Excerpts two of five points.]
- It is unnecessary to get rid of the Best Novelette category in order to “make room” for the Best Saga category. I’m unaware of the need in the WSFS constitution to limit the number of Hugo Awards given out; it’s not a zero sum game. Speaking as someone who has both emceed the Hugos and sat in its audience, I understand the desirability of not having an infinite proliferation of Hugo categories, because the ceremony can be long enough as it is. But that’s not a good enough reason to give one fiction category the axe at the expense of another, nor can I think of another good reason why the inclusion of the “saga” category requires the doom of another fiction category. It is, literally, a false dichotomy.
This false dichotomy is bad in itself, but also offers knock-on badness down the road. For example:
- It privileges novel writing over short fiction writing. Bud Sparhawk, a writer and human I admire rather a bit, complained to me once (in the context of the Nebulas) that calling the Best Novel award “the big one,” as many people often do, is an implicit disrespect of the art of short fiction writing, and of the skills of those who write to those lengths.
John Scalzi in a comment on Whatever – June 21
Now, if the Best Saga Hugo proposal hadn’t had tried to unnecessarily murder the Best Novelette category, is it something I could see my way toward voting for?
My current thought about it is “no, not really.” Here’s why: …
[Makes a four-point argument.]
https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/612803230377095168
Wow, seriously? You want to eliminated the Hugo Award for Best Novelette so you can make best Saga? Shame on you.
— clarkesworld (@clarkesworld) June 21, 2015
David Gerrold on Facebook – June 21
You can have my Best Novelette Hugo when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.
For "Best Dramatic Presentation" in 2016, can we just nominate the 2015 Hugo awards?
— Ferrett Steinmetz (@ferretthimself) June 21, 2015
Jonathan Crowe
“Some Initial Thoughts on a Couple of Hugo Award Amendments” – June 21
The [Best Saga] amendment points out that most sf/fantasy comes out in series nowadays — around two-thirds, they claim — whereas Hugo voters tend to vote for standalone books. According to the proposal,
for the past decade, the Best Novel category has been dominated by stand-alone works, with nine out of the eleven winners being such (and one of the two series novels is a first book in its series). The distribution of Best Novel winners is badly out of step with the general shape of the market, even though the nominees run close to the market trend.
I’d argue that a decade doesn’t give us nearly enough data points. Over the past quarter century, the split between standalone books and series books among Hugo winners is about fifty-fifty — and I’m including the first books of eventual trilogies, such as Ann Leckie’s Ancillary Justice (2014), Robert J. Sawyer’s Hominids (2003) and Robert Charles Wilson’s Spin (2006). Sequels to have won Hugos include Lois McMaster Bujold’s Paladin of Souls (2004), Vernor Vinge’s Deepness in the Sky (2000), and Orson Scott Card’s Speaker for the Dead (1987). Books two and three of Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars series won Hugos, as did the fourth installments of the Harry Potter and Foundation series. And that doesn’t get into the number of Bujold’s Miles Vorkosigan books that have won Hugos as well.
So I’m not sure that the proposal’s premise holds up.
Andrew Hickey on Sci-Ence! Justice Leak!
“Hugo Blogging: Sagas” – June 21
Were the “best saga” award to be brought in *and all books in series to be removed from the “best novel” category*, I would be ecstatic, because that would give more exposure to the standalone novels the field should be producing. As it is, though, it seems likely that it will encourage even further the decline of the field into a niche of thirty-book series called The Chronicles Of The Saga Of Dullworld. When the playing field is already tilted in one direction, tilting it further seems a bad idea.
https://twitter.com/WarpCordova/status/612621600660299776
Nicholas Whyte on From The Heart of Europe
“E Pluribus Hugo, and other proposals (long post)” – June 21
My conclusions on the various proposals: So with a slightly heavy heart – I regret that small-minded slate-mongers have killed off a large part of the wisdom-of-crowds aspect of the Hugo nominations process – I endorse E Pluribus Hugo as the best fix to prevent slates from dominating the process in future without irreparable damage to the credibility of the awards. Edited to add: I no longer think that a “large” part of the wisdom-of-crowds aspect has been killed off.
Three other proposals for reforming the Hugo process have been submitted to Sasquan. One is to abolish the 5% threshold; as I mentioned above, I agree with this faute de mieux, but E Pluribus Hugo removes the threshold requirement anyway, so I would only support it if E Pluribus Hugo is rejected.
I don’t support the proposal to merge two of the short fiction categories and create a “Best Saga” category. The multiple short fiction awards at present reward writers who express their ideas succinctly rather than at big commercial length, and I’m in favour of that. The “Best Saga” proposal doesn’t fix any existing problem but does create new ones – not least of which, who is going to have time to read all the finalists between close of nominations and close of voting?
I do support the “4 and 6” proposal, to restrict voters to a maximum of four nominations rather than five as at present, but to extend the final ballot to include six rather than five finalists. If E Pluribus Hugo is not adopted, the “4 and 6” proposal is a lesser safeguard against slates, in that it becomes much more difficult to marshall your minions to support six slated works if they have only four votes each. And if E Pluribus Hugo is adopted, voters who nominate five candidates will get less value for their nomination than those who nominate four, and so on; the first part of the “4 and 6” proposal seems to me a decent indication to voters that a slightly different nominating strategy is now necessary (even though it’s not actually part of E Pluribus Hugo). As for the second part, I do feel that good work is left off the Hugo ballot every year, and while Mike Scott’s proposal from April (1, 2, 3) would have designed a certain responsiveness in the system specifically in reaction to the slates, I’d prefer a broader, simpler and less slate-dependent change, and I think that expanding the final ballot to six rather than five does that.
Tim Hall on Where Worlds Collide
“E Pluribus Hugo” – June 21
Out of Many, A Hugo, the proposal from Making Light for changing the Hugo Awards voting system in an attempt to fix the problems that came to a head this year.
It uses a Single Divisible Vote, which is a form of proportional system rather than the first-past-the-post system used up to now, and is designed to prevent any well-organised minority from dominating the nominations out of all proportion to their numbers.
I like the system a lot, although the complexity of the counting system means the count must be computerised. It has many of the same advantages as the widely-used Single Transferrable Vote system, though a notable difference is that you don’t need to rank your nominations in any kind of order.
Mari Ness
“Proposed changes to Hugo Awards” – June 21
Moving onto the “KILL THE NOVELETTE CATEGORY ALREADY!” question, well, I’m a short fiction writer, so I’m an interested party here.
First, I’ll note that there’s some precedence for this, with the World Fantasy Award which does not offer a separate category for novelettes. Second, I am deeply sympathetic with the complaints of voters who do not want to check the word count for the short fiction they’ve read, and that the dividing line between novelette and short story has issues because of where it lands (at 7500 words) and that really, novelettes are just long short stories and should be treated like that. Not to mention the complaints that the Hugo ballot is waaaaayyyyyyyy too long as it is. I’ve made that last complaint myself. My understanding is that the novelette category has historically gotten fewer nominations than other categories, so even as a short fiction writer, I fully get the keeeeellll it! keeellllllll it dead! feeling here.
But.
The first problem is the number of eligible short fiction works versus the number of eligible works in most of the other categories. Novels possibly come close, and, with blog posts eligible for the catch-all category of Best Related Work (which this year includes a nominee that isn’t even particularly “related”), that category does as well. Novellas are currently experiencing a resurrection, so those numbers might creep up.
Otherwise – the number of eligible podcasts is in the double digits. The number of semi-prozines and fanzines is also in the double digits; the same names keep popping up in those categories for a reason. The number of eligible graphic novels probably in the triple digits. Films are in the double, maybe triple digits. Television episodes, including cartoons, might pop up to a little over 1000. The number of eligible short stories, in that category alone, is conservatively around 6000. Expanding that category to include works up to 10,000 words will just expand that number.
Kevin Standlee on Fandom Is My Way Of Life
“New Business Is New Business” – June 21
The deadline for submitting proposals to the Business Meeting this year is August 6, 2015. The procedure for submitting proposals is listed on the Business Meeting page on the Sasquan web site under “New Business Submissions.” The WSFS Rules are published online and are distributed to the members in the progress reports. None of this is secret. And if you have questions about the process, you can write to me or to the entire WSFS business meeting staff through the wsfs-business address @sasquan.org.
I’ve written a Guide to the Business Meeting that tries to explain this. I’m available to answer questions. I just beg of people to not assume the worst of everything. It’s very frustrating to work this hard and to hear people assuming that it’s all rigged in some way. Well, it’s set up to allow the members who choose to participate in the process to come to a decision in a way that balances the rights of the members as a whole, of the members who attend, of majorities and minorities, of individuals, and of absentees, in a fair manner. However, “fair” and “I got what I personally wanted” are not always the same thing, and it would be wise to keep that in mind when approaching any form of deliberative assembly.
Mark Ciocco on Kaedrin Weblog
“Hugo Awards: Novelettes” – June 21
[Reviews all five nominees]
Novelettes! Good old novelettes! What do you call something that’s longer than a short story, but shorter than a novel? A novella, of course, but that’s too easy. Let’s invent something between a short story and a novella, and call it a novelette! On the one hand, it is a bit odd that SF/F seems to be the only genre in literature that makes this distinction (something about a legacy of SF’s pulpy magazine roots, where different sized works had different pay scales) and it seems rather pointless and confusing for no real reason. On the other hand, it just means we get to read more fiction, which is actually a pretty cool thing. Once again, none of my nominees made the final ballot, but such is the way of short fiction awards. Last year’s Novelettes were pretty darn good (with one obvious and notable exception), and it looks like this years will rival that:…
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“Andromeda Spaceways In-Flight Magazine” – June 21
Andromeda Spaceways In-Flight Magazine is a 2015 Hugo nominee for Best Semiprozine.
Visually, I found this a lot more appealing than Abyss & Apex, the only other nominated semiprozine I’ve looked at so far. On the other hand, I was not as impressed by the accessible fiction. Also, there seemed to be no means to access the relevant material, i.e, what was actually published during 2014.
Vivienne Raper on Futures Less Traveled
“Reading the Rockets – Best Short Story” – June 21
[Reviews all five nominees.]
First up, Best Short Story. The nominees are:
- “On A Spiritual Plain”, Lou Antonelli (Sci Phi Journal #2, 11-2014)
- “The Parliament of Beasts and Birds”, John C. Wright (The Book of Feasts & Seasons, Castalia House)
- “A Single Samurai”, Steven Diamond (The Baen Big Book of Monsters, Baen Books)
- “Totaled”, Kary English (Galaxy’s Edge Magazine, 07-2014)
- “Turncoat”, Steve Rzasa (Riding the Red Horse, Castalia House)
These range between dire and good. And only one of them, in my view, is even remotely worthy of being considered for a Hugo Award (if I’m being charitable). And that, surprisingly, is the military SF story Turncoat.
Jonathan Edelstein in a comment on File 770 – June 21
CORREIA:
Dear kindly Sergeant Pupke You gotta understand It’s just that we’re fed up-ke About our losing hand; The lefties run the ballot And us they underrate: Golly Moses, that’s why we’re a slate!
CORREIA AND PUPPIES:
Officer Pupke, we’re really upset Our writing never got the love that it ought to get. We’re not really rabid, we’re misunderstood – Deep down, our books are pretty good.
CORREIA:
There’s some good!
PUPPIES:
There is good, there is good There is unread good! In the worst of us, there is some good.
[Continues.]
Jonathan Edelstein in a comment on File 770 – June 20
[Parody of ”Guys and Dolls”]
…When you see a guy froth without knowing why You can bet that he’s angry about some CHORF. When you spot a dude sounding like he’s von Krupp Chances are he’s a Pup whose full-measured cup of outrage is up.
When you see Vox Day swear he’ll make Gallo pay And direct all his minions to cut Tor off Call it dumb, call it cloying But the thing that is most annoying Is that he’s only angry about some CHORF….
[Continues]
Tor & File770 insiders declared #SadPuppies refused to put their left foot in…
— finger chomper (@sadrbtpuppies) June 21, 2015
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I need to make a public confession of a drastic error on my part today: I left the house without a book.
Milt Stevens : Someone really must write a Soggy Saga sometime.
My upcoming five volume work will involve a Japanese computer company reacting to the predicted ecological collapse by desperately attempting to genetically engineer and cultivate neglected food staples in New Guinea.
Stay tuned for the Sega Sago Saga, coming to a bookstore near you. Hopefully before the ecology actually collapses.
@NigelC
I first met the Culture with Use of Weapons — but I am also a huge fan of complicated structure, and know many people who are not — which is why I toss Player of Games at them.
Surface Detail and Look to Windward rely on other books, and I think the elegiac tone of Hydrogen Sonata makes it….not the place to start with the Culture? Consider Phlebas also mostly presents it from the outside.
And Matter is, well…I guess to me the least of the books; it’s the one I always have to reach for when I’m listing them.
@Iain. Re Espedair Street: have you heard the Radio 4 dramatisation? It’s one I go back to regularly.
Simon, smart phone, Kindle app, just saying 😉
I introduced it when we needed some book talk. I tend to have strong feelings about Woolf’s work, for good or ill. Orlando was great fun, even if it had some cringeworthy bits, mostly products of its time.
I have long wondered if Terry Pratchett was having a dialogue with it in Jingo, I think it was, when Colon and Nobbs’ attitudes towards that one pub — The Klatchian Head? — changed over the course of the book. It resonated with that gruesome swordplay scene early in Orlando.
Woolf gave an interesting impression of how an incurious immortal might note the passage of time, I thought.
Peace: “Woolf gave an interesting impression of how an incurious immortal might note the passage of time, I thought.”
Gah, it’s such a long time since I read Orlando that I can’t remember the details! Now I need to find an ebook version and reread it, and reread Jingo, which is no hardship. Interesting perspective, thanks.
ETA: Just found a repository of ebook versions of Woolf’s writing, for anyone who’s interested.
@Ann There are only so many games of Subway Surfers one can play.
@Ms. Somerville:
It’s likely that I’ll live to regret responding to you on this as much as I would regret any attempt to argue with Brian Z, but you have a tendency to go at people with hammer and tongs whenever you perceive any slight or challenge.
Meredith is more than capable of defending himself. But I am disabled and (much as I am wearied of turning everything into an “ism” or an “ist”) a discussion of what is and isn’t “ableist” is very much a subject I have some stake in, so I’m jumping in against my better judgement.
Somehow, in your view, remarks you make of an insulting nature (“frothing with mad insanity”) are (“non-abusive”) because you don’t see them as a point of offense. That is your opinion, which differs from Meredith.
You then pull the “My feelings are hurt” card, detailing your undoubtedly difficult journey and effectively taking issue with being portrayed as “ableist” because you have your own challenges. Just out of curiosity, if someone read your “frothing with mad insanity” remark and told you that they found that statement hurtful, how would you take that and what would you say to them?
You and I, to judge from your comments, are roughly of an age, more than twice Meredith’s 25. I had someone with emotional disorders (bi-polar and Asperger’s) regularly and repeatedly describe me to pretty much everyone as “the crippled guy”. His intent was not to be abusive, it was just the shorthand he used to refer to me. Would you describe calling me “the crippled guy” as an “ableist” statement or does he get an “I can’t be an “ableist” because I have my own problems” card?
From reading Meredith’s remarks, it’s obvious to me that Meredith meant you no slight in his observations, he was merely pointing out how he took your remarks. You choose to belittle him in your closing paragraph when his only “sin” seems to be his having disagreed with you on a point. It seems to me that Meredith, having acquitted himself quite well as a voice of reason worthy of some respect, deserves better than your dismissal of him in your last paragraph.
It may well be that you’ll dismiss me as not having the “standing” to lecture you either. If so, I’ll live. I’m a life-long member of the minority the majority can join in an instant. After everything I’ve heard and experienced in my life from the majority for whom this world has been designed, being dismissed in an online message board doesn’t even crack the top 1,000 slights I’ve experienced in my life thus far.
@John Seavey
The sequel is more tightly plotted, I think, but neither of them are exactly an action fest.
Stevie: The bottom line is that the vast majority of puppydum haven’t a clue that the U.S. does not constitute the world, that Worldcons exist only by the efforts of unpaid volunteers who put vast amounts of time, energy and commitment to making them happen, and that the rest of the world knows little and cares less about US culture wars…
For future reference, please remember that people who have had to wade through the garbage in the voting package are unlikely to be sympathetic to the people who put it there…
As others have said, your entire post is brilliant.
I would like to add that, as a USian, I greatly resent the Puppies’ insistence on dragging the Far Right Political Reactionaries’ politics into the world of SFF and the Hugos. The people who support these views expend a great deal of money and vitriol trying to deprive other people of equal human rights and attempting to force other people to have to live according to their religious views (including attempting to get these unequal rights and religious views made into laws).
For them to drag this into the Hugos is reprehensible in the extreme. SFF has always been about looking forward, trying to evolve as humans into something/someone better; it has always included cautionary tales about who and what we might become and destroy if we choose to ignore those cautionary tales.
These people want to make SFF about looking backward, about shutting out anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their religion or their odious prejudices and bigotry (I note that religion and bigotry are not necessarily congruent; please take #NotAllChristians as a given).
If they feel slighted because fiction presenting their bigotry as a positive thing is not winning awards, I feel absolutely no sympathy for them. And the fact that they have stuffed the Hugo ballot with bigotry message fiction and fiction that is so sub-par that its nomination is laughable — well, they had their chance to prove that they had a legitimate grievance. And they blew it, big-time.
Simon:
I’m sorry to say that passed me by.
I also recommend the smart phone with Kindle app. Went to an event last Fridqy that began an hour late. Not the best way to read a book but as a lifejacket from boredom it works a-ok
Simon Bisson — Lawks-a-mercy! However did you manage?
@Robert Reynolds
Thank you for your kind comments. 🙂
Ann Somerville has previously expressed her wish to ignore me, so I’m not going to write a long screed at her (particularly since I do not, in fact, bear a grudge against her), but I think you summed up most of what I’d like to have said very well.
But just for the record, I’m a she, 😀 (curse gender neutral names!) with a mental illness and a fairly severe physical disability, and I felt… Not exactly hurt, but a bit kicked by the “frothing with mad insanity” phrase, because its similar to things that have been aimed at me. I’d’ve felt worse if it had been physically ableist, because those things affect my life more, but it wasn’t great. As I said, I’m not great at avoiding ableism either, because its so solidy entrenched in our language, so I don’t blame people who do, but I try and avoid it myself when I can.
In the category of “little victories” —
My father read the WSJ article on the Puppies — and thought the Puppies had a point; too much political correctness in SF. This is my very-right-of-center father.
I asked him what he’d read recently and liked. He couldn’t remember the title, but “it had a scientist working on chaos, and a woman with an insect head — she was a sculptor…”
“Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville?”
“That’s it!”
“And did you like it?”
He had a few quibbles, but, basically, he did.
I pointed out that the author, a Marxist, was one of the people the Puppies had railed against. When he heard this — on a dime, almost — he turned, and dismissed the Puppies as oversensitive to “message”.
I’m sending him Ancillary Justice as a thank-you for restoring my faith. 🙂
@Matt Y — I know it was a typo, but the sound of “Fridqy” is just very pleasing to me. I think something’s going to have to get named that in a story or campaign.
Robert Reynolds, thanks for your comment. My remarks to Meredith (who is female) result from several interactions where she has, frankly, acted like she is the be all and end all of language policing. She also, when challenged on her arguments, is happy to whine about the challenger being so mean to her, and throws her hands up in the air in the hope that one of her several white knights will save her. I have asked her to ignore my comments and I will ignore hers, but she still keeps needling.
So yes, I am out of patience and charity with her over this.
“if someone read your “frothing with mad insanity” remark and told you that they found that statement hurtful, how would you take that and what would you say to them?”
I would explain what I meant as I did in my comment here. People with disabilities have different levels of sensitivity about this, as you know. Causing offence unintentionally is not the same thing as ableism. There has to be more than that.
“You then pull the “My feelings are hurt” card, ”
It’s not a card. It’s an accurate description of what her nonsense is doing to me. I’m really tired of having to repeat myself, having to parse out words for madam’s entertainment, and put myself and my experience out there to explain where I’m coming from.
“Would you describe calling me “the crippled guy” as an “ableist” statement”
He’s describing your mental illness and Asperger’s as being ‘crippled’ – sounds bloody insensitive at the least. But how do you feel about it? How does it affect you? I don’t think it’s helpful, but I don’t know the context or why he’s saying it. Some disabled people cheerfully use ‘crippled’ about themselves – does he assume you’re one of them?
“does he get an “I can’t be an “ableist” because I have my own problems” card?”
Wait up. I never said that. People with disabilities can be ableist. But when someone is repeatedly policing someone with a mental illness about terminology concerning mental illness, without considering context or where that’s coming from, then that’s dickery.
“It may well be that you’ll dismiss me as not having the “standing” to lecture you either.”
Meredith has lost the standing to argue with me because she’s treating ableism as a gotcha in her ongoing attempts to portray me as a meanie (and herself as this innocent with folded hands.) She has made remarks which indicate she lives with some kind of chronic pain or illness, but that hasn’t stopped her showing little understanding of what the issues are in relation to mental illness and common terminology. Social justice isn’t just about gotchas and language policing. It’s about thinking things through and actual empathy.
I haven’t dismissed you, and I won’t, unless you just want to play games too, which I’m seeing no sign of. If my remark caused you offence, I’m truly sorry for that.
“Ann Somerville has previously expressed her wish to ignore me”
So why are you still digging at me? You’re not remotely honest, Meredith. If you comment on my comments, then you can expect a response. You don’t get to poke me and run away, claiming innocence. Only toddlers do that.
If I have my backpack, I usually have a book, a tablet (with books on it) and a largish notebook.
If I don’t, I try to carry around a phone (with books on it), a small notebook (Moleskine or equivalent) and one of those Fisher space pens. The marketing on the pen may or may not be bullshit but I’ve carried one around for years without leaks and it always writes until it’s almost out of ink. Even after I’ve washed it.
I may forget one or two things here and there, but not everything.
Ann Somerville:
I encourage you to spend some time re-reading your last few posts and comprehending that you are saying “When I’m offended by what other people say, it’s legitimate; when other people are offended by what I say, it’s not legitimate.”
This theme is true of many of your posts here. It is why I and many other people have said things to you here about which you have felt free to have been offended — without corresponding consideration as to whether their points-of-view have any validity.
@Meredith:
Apologies for the error. For some reason, I got a mistaken impression.
I’m old enough and have had so much happen to me that I scarcely notice reactions and comments at this point. You are far more poised and at ease than I was in my 20s.
I commented simply because I feel you deserve better treatment than you received. My comments are accurate. That they are also complimentary is a reflection on who you are. 😉
Oh, hey. A fair number of you enjoy roleplaying games, or have in the past. Probably you want to know about this project, being carried out by friends: a second edition of Blue Rose: The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy. It’s using a straightforward but flexible system, with a wonderful setting strongly influenced by Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, and such. Game creator John Snead is a polyamorous pagan (who agreed promptly when friends suggested that the real ideal job for him would be beta-testing new genders in impending-Singularity conditions), and first edition developer Steve Kenson is one of the prominently out gay guys in the tabletop RPG world; it is a game that takes as axiomatic that people like them exist, and so do people like the bi and trans people they know and care for. 🙂
At the Kickstarter page I linked to you can see some of the art by Stephanie Pui-Mun Law. “To die for” seems a reasonable description.
The Kickstarter’s off to a great start, it’s not like there’s any risk of it failing…but some of you will like the chance to get in on it, if only you knew it was there. And now you do!
Last of the Dogfen
Ann Somerville: I’m sure it will be a disappointment to all involved — but probably not a surprise — that I have no objection to using idioms like “frothing mad.”
The thing I’m missing here is how it came to be assumed that the image was about frothing people.
Rabid dogs froth at the mouth. That’s what I think of when I see the phrase, personally.
@Ann Somerville:
Apparently, I wasn’t clear. The friend who referred to me as “the crippled guy” is the one who is bi-polar with Asperger’s. I have a physical disability, Cerebral Palsy. My preference for a descriptive is “Robert”, but given a choice from other options, “gimp” is more apt in my case. 😉
No offense is taken by me, as you’ve offered none. I have the hide of a rhino at this point. I’ve simply noted a tendency in some of your posts to dismiss some with whom you’ve disagreed. Given that I post very rarely in here, that you might dismiss my remarks seemed a very real possibility, that’s all.
Your posts mark you as intelligent, but you tend also to take slights (real and perceived) rather hard, which is unfortunate, because the resulting friction often obscures any valid points you might have. On occasion, you generate more heat than light.
Mike Glyer: And didn’t somebody at Peter Jackson’s studio prep a Gollum acceptance speech?
I assume everyone has seen Gollum accepting an MTV Award?
Trigger warning : Strong language and an uncanny resemblance to certain SP/RP leaders…
@Robert Reynolds
I’m only sorry that thanking you apparently gives the impression that I need a white knight! I was brought up to thank people when they say nice things about you.
@Ann Somerville
Your demand would mean I was unable to comment on anything that you’d commented on, because you’d think it was about you. Today it was something that was discussed repeatedly by multiple persons – am I not allowed to be part of that? In Hammer of Tor it was firstly me making a general point which again was prompted by multiple people, not just you, and then me backing someone else after they said you were being ableist – am I not allowed to do that? Before that you seemed to take very personally me asking someone else entirely who had nothing to do with you to tone it down a little. Is this all because I asked you to tone it down once?
Honestly, at this point, while I don’t have a grudge against you (seriously, it takes a lot for me to hold a grudge – unless you betrayed me at some point and I don’t remember it odds are slim) I really am starting to wonder if there is one the other way around. I’ve been more intemperate with Brian than I have been with you, and I’m sure you don’t think I have a grudge against him.
@Mike Glyer
I didn’t expect or want you to. 🙂 If I make such observations, they are just observations, not a demand for moderation – nor a demand anyone should agree with me.
I just finished reading The Year’s Best Military SF & Space Opera edited by David Afsharirad. Overall an enjoyable read. War Dog the last story in the book would probably make the puppies froth at the mouth. You have an ex-military protagonist who shows nothing but contempt for organize religion and well does not put humans first. The irony of the title not lost on me.
Otherwise excellent stories by Linda Nagata (2x), Charlie Jane Anders, Holly Black, Matthew Johnson, Eric Leif Davin, Robert R Chase and William Ledbetter.
Back to Bill ( 2L’s) the Galactic Hero.
@Steven Schwartz
Your story about your father gives me hope!
Actually, I suspect there might be a lot of people potentially swayed thus, which is why the Puppies try to avoid naming names. If you say “there’s too much leftist political correctness in SF nowadays” you might get a lot of people nodding along in agreement with the vague general sentiment. But when you mention an actual story that a person has read, you’re more likely to get a “hold on — I liked that one!”
ack the edit timer ran out while I was editing my previous post. I just wanted to add the the Kindle App justifies by itself the existence of smart phones. I always have something on the go.Just started Uncanny Issue 4 while queuing to pay groceries.
@Steven Schwartz
So what we need to do is trick all the Puppies into reading an excellent lefty author and then spring the politics on them. Aha!
I have a busy day tomorrow, and I need sleep, and food, in the morning.
I am a privileged person, but I have spent a lot of time in a lot of hospitals, which is why my daughter, who is coming to the end of her 11th year of medical training, says that she decided to become a doctor because she grew up in hospitals.
I have an extensive number of things wrong with me, so it’s just as well that I live in a country which provides free healthcare, paid for by the taxes we pay. I long ago gave up on remembering the number of times I have been admitted to hospital, or even remember the hospitals.
That is a lengthy preamble to the fact that I loathe the word ableist, never use the world ableist, and think it should have been confined on the other side of the pond. The vast majority of people in Britain haven’t a clue if you accuse them of behaving in an ableist way, and people who haven’t a clue about what that means are going to be angry that you appear to be making up reasons to as you go along.
As a general principle, this is a U.S. word which is only used by people who perceive themselves as culturally US, unfortunately for that thesis doctors, nurses, physiotherapists and every other hospital worker here in Britain don’t.
McJulie : I like the idea of cutscenes getting nominated for Best Short Dramatic Presentation, although it would have to be a very special cutscene indeed to work without the context of the rest of the game.
Mmm – problem here. I am recalling the truly excellent “Planescape Torment” and especially the heartbreaking sequences towards the end of the game, in which your companions all individually go up against the Big Bad while you’re off elsewhere, and individually and – completely in line with their established characters and your interactions with them – die. Each cutscene in itself was reasonable, but they required the hours of interaction beforehand and the cumulative effect of watching those who had trusted you all die one by one, in line with the theme of the game, to get the true emotional impact of the sequence.
@Stevie
The British word is actually disableist, but no-one would know what I meant, including as you say a high percentage of Britain, so I use the American one unless I’m talking to British people with disabilities, and preferably ones involved in disability activism. Saves time. They’ll never make me say “gotten” though, that’s where I draw the line.
Speaking as a wheelchair user, who has problems accessing 99% of stores (including department stores), I do like having a word, even if I end up sounding American.
@ Cpaca
I had the same thought. There are 2 scenes – one in Season One and one in Season Two – in Telltale’s The Walking Dead games that I could nominate with no problem, but they both depend on having watched or played the rest of the games. One of them is the very end of Season One, when Yrr gnyxf gb Pyrzragvar nobhg fubbgvat uvz naq fheivivat ba ure bja, and the second one is near the middle of Season Two where Pyrzragvar qernzf fur’f ba gur genva jvgu Yrr ntnva. Both of them moved me to tears, but I can’t imagine showing them to someone in a vacuum and having them mean anything.
Sigh, the edit button isn’t co-operating. *Disablism
Meredith
You would not be you without a banner!
Part of the problem is that there are vast numbers of people who have the power in assisting people with disabilities; virtually none of them understand the word so helpfully shipped in from the US. If you are trying to gain hearts and minds then most people are not at all comfortable with a weird word which we imported, and would like something which make more sense to them…
@Cassy B., DMS: (early days on the net)
(sigh) Well, maybe I can get a couple of bucks out of these rose-colored glasses at a yard sale.
I’m too far behind to catch up soon; I’ll be back in a couple of hours.
With Friends Laika These
In regards to that thing in Portal, I’ll freely admit, it provided a lot of my reason and emotion for taking out the big boss at the end of the game. (And it’s probably also why I have a plush one hanging off my backpack.)
@Stevie
Oh no, I don’t use it with doctors and occupational therapists and suchlike, just online. I suppose if I wasn’t mostly housebound and hung out with fellow disabled peeps in person I might use the British one then. It wouldn’t be specific enough for use in medical situations – they need to know exactly what barriers there are. Politics/social justice isn’t part of it, except for the time I bonded with a hydrotherapy pool physiotherapist over being mutually disappointed with the coalition, and that wasn’t disability politics either!
RedWombat on June 22, 2015 at 4:05 pm said:
Oh, I’m right there with ya.
Teufelshund May Cry
@Stevie:
I’m not sure you I understand your objection. What word do you think we should use to talk about structural discrimination against people with disabilities?
Ableism or disablism do the job quite well. What does it matter that it was coined in the US?
First Tor Day book arrived today – Gene Wolfe short fiction collection – two more on the way.
Also, gravatar test
Meredith: “Your demand would mean I was unable to comment on anything that you’d commented on, because you’d think it was about you. Today it was something that was discussed repeatedly by multiple persons – am I not allowed to be part of that? In Hammer of Tor it was firstly me making a general point which again was prompted by multiple people, not just you”
If you directly quote my words, then you are commenting on something I’ve said.
So don’t.
I’m taking a break. Have fun being cooed over. Seems to be your thing.
Ann:
Not your call, Ann. You’re in charge of your behavior online, not other people’s.
If you want to ignore someone, ignore them. But you can’t demand they ignore you.
[Well, you can. But they’re under no obligation to do it.]
This is offensive.
The people saying that you’re quick to take offense but have no hesitation in giving offense are correct. You seem to think you get to insult people while they must obey you.
The break sounds like a good idea.
Influxus
It depends on whether you wish to congratulate yourself on your utterly egalitarian principles or, instead, do something to assist the many disabled people around you.
Only you can answer that question, though I should note that I don’t count commenting on tweets and tumblir as political activism…