aka The Puppy Who Sold the Moon
https://twitter.com/damiengwalter/status/598887999867203585
The field for today’s royal rumble includes John C. Wright, Eric Flint, Vox Day, Tom Knighton, Spacefaring Kitten, Wayne Borean, Lis Carey, Lisa J. Goldstein, T.C. McCarthy, Kevin Standlee, Alexandra Erin, Thomas A. Mays, Brandon Kempner, Rick Moen, Peace Is My Middle Name, Bruce Baugh and Damien G. Walter. (Title credit to File 770 contributing editors of the day Whym and Rev. Bob.)
John C. Wright
”Suggested Reading for Sad Puppy Backstory” – May 14
Some of you came in to this theater late, and did not catch the first act.
For those of you puzzled or dazed or disgusted with the goings-on, allow me to provide a partial (and admittedly partial) list of the backstory on Puppy Related Sadness.
From Larry Correia you can get links to his original announcements of Sad Puppies 1,2,and 3. Allow me, at the risk of seeming egomaniacal, of listing only my own contributions to the movement and the columns leading up to it.
[Post includes around a dozen selected links.]
Eric Flint
“And Again On The Hugo Awards” – May 14
[Again, just a small excerpt of a long and wide-ranging post.]
I think one side in this dispute is wrong—that’s the side championed by Brad and Larry. I think that, not because I think the Hugo awards don’t have a lot of problems—I do, and I explained those at length in my first essay—but because their analysis of the problem is so wrong as to be downright wrong-headed. But I don’t think they pose a mortal threat to social justice, western civilization, science fiction or even the Hugo awards themselves.
Why did they launch this brawl and keep pursuing it? Well, I’ve always been a devotee of Napoleon’s dictum: “Never ascribe to malevolence what can be adequately explained by incompetence.” I don’t think there was anything involved except that, driven by the modern American right’s culture of victimization—they are always being persecuted; there’s a war on white men, a war on Christmas (no, worse! a war on Christians themselves!), blah blah blah—they jumped to the conclusion that the reason authors they like weren’t getting Hugo awards or even nominations was because of the Great Leftwing Conspiracy against the righteous led by unnamed Social Justice Warriors—presumably being shuttled around the country in their nefarious plots in black helicopters—and off they went.
If they’d simply said: “We think the Hugos have gotten too skewed against popular authors in favor of literary authors,” there’d have still been a pretty ferocious argument but it never would have reached this level of vituperation.
But simply stating a problem wasn’t good enough for them. No, following the standard modern right-wing playbook, SOMEBODY MUST BE TO BLAME.
Enter… the wicked SJWs! (Whoever the hell they are. They’re to blame, dammit.)
Vox Day at Vox Popoli
“Islands in a sea of rhetoric” – May 14
I stopped commenting at File 770 as it proved to be another exercise in demonstrating the truth of Aristotle’s dictum about those who cannot be instructed. Give them dialectic and they shamelessly attempt to pick it apart, some honestly, most dishonestly, while constantly declaring that any errors or falsehoods on their part are irrelevant. Give them rhetoric to meet them at their level and they either cry about it or concoct pseudo-dialectic to explain why it’s not valid.
VD: SJWs always lie. SJW: I told the truth once back in 2007. See, you’re totally wrong. Your whole argument is disproved. You are a bad person. DISQUALIFIED!
But the ongoing Hugo coverage still makes for interesting reading, particularly as the few remaining commenters possessing intellectual integrity one-by-one throw up their hands and stop trying to force the relevant facts through the SJW’s cast-iron skulls. A pair of neutrals recounted typical experiences, as one of them juxstaposed his treatment at various Puppy sites versus SF-SJW Central:
Tom Knighton
“One problem with the Hugos that will never be solved?” – May 14
I’m sorry, but less than 50 votes got nominations on the ballot? With such low numbers getting a work nominated, you can tell that there just aren’t that many people nominating. This puts the fate of the Hugos in the hands of a few, which makes it possible for small groups to have a disproportional impact on the overall Hugos. Let’s be honest, it’s why Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies were so effective. Put those exact same groups into a pool of millions, and you’d never notice their impact.
However, back to the subject at hand, you have a handful of people who are essentially deciding who gets nominated for the Hugos, and if they don’t read something, it’s not getting nominated. What if that handful hasn’t read the Best Book Ever Written yet? Well, guess who isn’t getting a Hugo nomination?
That’s what almost happened with Three Body Problem this year. The Puppies just hadn’t read it yet, so it didn’t make either slate. It’s probably happened a dozen times previously, it’s just that this time there’s far more scrutiny being paid to the process.
Spacefaring Kitten on Spacefaring, Extradimensional Happy Kittens
“Disagreeing With Brad” – May 14
Because I so thoroughly disagree with Sad Puppy advocates, I’ve been thinking about doing a fisking of some essential Puppy advocate post. Fisking is a thing Larry Correia does sometimes in his blog, and as far as I’ve been able to decipher, what it means is a mean-spirited rebuttal of everything somebody else has written elseweb, line by line. Generally, it seems to involve a great deal of calling other people morons and idiots, but I’ll try to do it without the nasty parts, because I have no desire to be nasty.
An opportunity presented itself when Brad R. Torgersen published a blog post earlier today. In it, he says a lot of things that I don’t agree on. That let’s us, well, disagree.
Wayne Borean on Zauberspiegel International
“Hugo Gernsback Still Causing Controversy” – May 15
The Hugo Awards have lost their relevance. You might argue with me about the date I picked (1985), or my view of the Hugos, but you cannot argue with me about the demographics of fandom. We are a bunch of grey haired old folks, and the younger generation isn’t rushing to sit at our feet in awe for some reason.
To fix the problem we have to expand the Hugo Awards, and encourage younger people to get involved.
Yes, I am aware that I’m probably going to really annoy a lot of people by saying this, but we brought this on ourselves. We’ve been too self centered, for far too long.
Lis Carey on Lis Carey’s Library
“The Day the World Turned Upside Down, by Thomas Olde Heuvelt (author), Lia Velt (translator)” – May 14
The story is competently written, but it’s the worst sort of “literary” fictions: Nothing needs to make any sense, and the protagonist is not someone I’m inclined to care about at all, for good or ill. I don’t care what happens to him.
Adult Onset Atheist
“SNARL: Totaled” – May 14
I liked this story. I am not using “liked” as a euphemism for “reading this did not make me sick”. This story is a worthy Hugo nominee; the first story that has earned that description from amongst what I have so far read of this year nominees. Before I get into what is right with this story I should point out the a couple issues. This story is told through the juxtaposition of communications, but is recalled in near real time to the reader who does not exist in the story. The reader must carefully examine the types of communication; where it originates, how it is read, how the information is stored, even what type of images are implied by the mechanism of communication. However, when it comes to the story itself the reader is expected to unquestioningly act as an omnipotent recording device.
Lisa J. Goldstein on theinferior4
“The Hugo Ballot, Part 9: Novelettes” – May 14
[“Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Earth to Alluvium” by Gray Rinehart] is so slight, in fact, it could have been about half its size. The first section, where Keller asks a Peshari artist to make him a tombstone and the artist refuses, might have been cut, and there are other unnecessary parts as well. (The section gives us some important information about Keller and the Peshari, but that information could be presented in other ways.) I actually like the idea of studying an enemy’s myths in order to defeat them, but I don’t think the story manages to use it to full advantage.
@Book_56 definitely writing it, but not sure where it will wind up. #sadpuppies has fan support, but it's mostly driven by authors.
— T.C. McCarthy (@tcmccarthy_) May 14, 2015
Kevin Standlee on Fandom Is My Way of Life
“Fandom Is A Pot-Luck Dinner” – May 13
My metaphor is that Fandom is a Pot-Luck Dinner. We have lots of acquaintances, we all like to eat, and we decide to hold a big pot-luck dinner where we can share our favorite dishes and socialize. We have so many friends and friends-of-friends that none of us owns a barn big enough to hold everyone, so we have to rent the community center. None of us is wealthy enough to do that on our own, so we ask everyone coming to not only bring a dish, but also to kick in part of the cost of renting the hall, plus the tables, chairs, etc. We’re not running a restaurant, and we’re not making a profit, just covering the cost of putting on the event. Some of us volunteer to schlep tables and chairs, others volunteer to wash dishes, and so forth. Everyone brings something. That means some of the food is stuff I personally like, and other stuff I hate. But that’s okay: I eat what I like, and leave the rest for those who like green bean casserole.
Somewhere along the way, we got the idea of voting among ourselves for what the best dishes were. (“Best Appetizer,” “Best Main Course,” “Best Dessert”) And we started holding this big pot-luck in different places so as to share the fun with our far-away friends who couldn’t necessarily make the trip to Our Fair City.
Well, now we’ve got people who started coming to the pot-luck, paying the share of the hall rental, and are angry that we’ve been choosing things they personally hate to eat, and have decided that they want to knock over all of the tables with food they dislike and insist that the rest of us eat that stuff that they personally like, because they say so. It should not be a surprise to them that the rest of us start saying, “I don’t think we want to invite you anymore; you’re making the rest of us very uncomfortable by your anti-social behavior.” They respond with variations of, “I paid my cover charge to your restaurant, and you’re responsible for feeding me things that I like, and to not serve food I don’t like!” and they don’t understand why that response alternately baffles or infuriates the rest of us.
Alexandra Erin on Blue Author Is About To Write
“The Barker and the Big Tent” – May 14
A pair of burly roustabouts flanked each of the gates. As Jake watched, a couple of people were roughly turned away from one. The bouncers’ faces were murderous, while the people they sent packing just looked scared. All the lines got shorter as people saw this and left in apparent disgust or, in some cases, fear.
“Well, lad, that’s where we let everyone in,” the barker said, then repeated, “Everyone is welcome in the Big Tent.” He cupped his hands over his mouth and shouted, “Come one, come all, to the Big Tent! If you believe that any show is a good show as long as it’s entertaining, this is the place for you!”
“So, who were those people, then?” Jake asked.
“Gatekeepers,” the barker said.
“No, I mean the people your gatekeepers turned away.”
“Our gatekeepers?” the barker said. He let out a loud, raucous laugh, slapping his knee. “We don’t have gatekeepers, son! This is the Big Tent you’re talking about, and everyone’s welcome in the Big Tent! No, those nice gentlemen are there to keep the gatekeepers out.”
Thomas A. Mays in a comment on File 770 – May 14
Just a point of order here. I am not “one of the gentlemen on the other side” as Chris Gerrib put it. I have no dog in this hunt. Chris has admitted that he originally had me confused with James May when he called me one of the louder voices on Brad Torgerson’s blog, but it brought him to my book, A Sword Into Darkness. Yeah, a sale!. I’m glad he enjoyed it somewhat, and as it was intended as an homage to some of the mil and hard SF I grew up with, I do understand his charge that it may seem “recycled” or “trope-ish” (though I and my fans don’t necessarily agree). What I don’t understand is why he keeps copying, spreading, or reposting this review around with the misleading intro. It’s a free ‘Net, so he can do as he pleases, but it seems to suggest he has more ideological axes to grind than I do. For the record, I’m a middle of the road guy and a newbie to this industry. I can see and appreciate both perspectives, but believe the rhetoric and vitriol folks keep injecting into the “discussion” may be actively preventing a fair resolution to the issues at hand rather than expediting that resolution. I myself would have loved to have gotten the recognition of being selected for a non-ideological Puppy slate before it all blew up. Now? I get how the anti-puppies feel about the recommendation slate perhaps skewing results, though I’m reserving judgment on whether or not it was bloc voting until after the ballots are revealed. I will not have any part of the No Award movement though, and I’m about halfway through my reading list. I’m looking forward to the Hugos, and I’m looking forward to seeing how Sad Puppies 4 responds to the criticisms of SP3. For all those who wanna check out my non-nominated, but much referred to novel A Sword Into Darkness, it’s for sale now on Amazon and Smashwords. Take care, Tom Mays
Brandon Kempner on Chaos Horizon
“Hugo Award Nomination Ranges, 2006-2015, Part 4” – May 13
Maybe we don’t want to know how the sausage is made. The community is currently placing an enormous amount of weight on the Hugo ballot, but does it deserve such weight? One obvious “fix” is to bring far more voters into the process—lower the supporting membership cost, invite other cons to participate in the Hugo (if you invited some international cons, it could actually be a “World” process every year), add a long-list stage (first round selects 15 works, the next round reduces those 5, then the winner), etc. All of these are difficult to implement, and they would change the nature of the award (more voters = more mainstream/populist choices). Alternatively, you can restrict voting at the nominating stage to make it harder to “game,” either by limiting the number of nominees per ballot or through a more complex voting proposals.
Rick Moen in a comment on File 770 – May 13
Con Chair: What happen?
SMOF: Somebody set up us the tail.
Operator: We get spoor.
Con Chair: What!
SMOFr: Main piddle turn on.
Con Chair: It’s You!!
Dogs: How are you, fandom!! All your Hugo are belong to us. You are on the way to SJWdom.
Con Chair: What you say!!
Dogs: You have no chance to nominate make your time. Ha Ha Ha Ha ….
SMOF: Con Chair!!
Con Chair: Take off every “Noah”!! You know what you doing. Move “Noah”. For great justice.
Peace Is My Middle Name in a comment on File 770 – May 13
It was a dark and stormy mutt; the rage fell in torrents, except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of whinge which swept up the streets (for it is in Spokane that our scene lies), rattling along the hotel-ballrooms, and fiercely agitating the skiffy flames of the fans that struggled against the darkness.
Bruce Baugh in a comment on File 770 – May 13
Toward the end of a stormy summer afternoon, with the sun finally breaking out under ragged black rain clouds, Castle Worldcon was overwhelmed and its population destroyed.
Until almost the last moment the factions among the fans were squabbling as to how Destiny properly should be met. The SMOFs of most prestige and account elected to ignore the entire undignified circumstance and went about their normal pursuits, with neither more nor less punctilio than usual. A few CHORFs, desperate to the point of hysteria, took up weapons and prepared to resist the final assault. Others still, perhaps a quarter of the total population, waited passively, ready—almost happy—to expiate the sins of fandom.
In the end death came uniformly to all; and all extracted as much satisfaction in their dying as this essentially graceless process could afford. The letter hacks sat turning the pages of their beautiful zines, or discussing the qualities of a century-old essence, or fondling a favorite Powers cover. They died without deigning to heed the fact. The hot-heads raced up the muddy slope which, outraging all normal rationality, loomed above the parapets of Worldcon. Most were buried under sliding rubble, but a few gained the ridge to blog, hack, tweet, until they themselves were shot, crushed by the half-alive power-wagons, hacked or stabbed. The contrite waited in the classic posture of gafiation, on their knees, heads bowed, and perished, so they believed, by a process in which the Puppies were symbols and fannish sin the reality. In the end all were dead: letterhacks, actifen, faans in the lounges; dealers in the dealer rooms. Of all those who had inhabited Worldcon, only the media fans survived, creatures awkward, gauche and raucous, oblivious to pride and faith, more concerned with the wholeness of their hides than the dignity of their con.
Rick Moen in a comment on File 770 – May 13
No one would have believed in the first years of the twenty-first century that the SFF world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences stranger than fen’s and yet as demented as his own; that as fen busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a fan with a mimeograph machine might Letter of Comment about the transient mundanes that swarm and wander in a convention hotel lobby. With infinite complacency fen went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over genre. It is possible that the mundanes in the convention hotel do the same … Yet, across the gulf of the Internet, minds that are like unto our canines, intellects energetic and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this fandom with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us. — Not Entirely H.G. Wells, Either
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The sales figure argument is bogus on its face. If it was all about sales, then all authors should just pack it up and admit that Hollywood has won. In terms of total audience and total sales the most popular movies tower over the most popular books. If sales numbers meant anything to the Puppies then they would of put Transformers: Age of Extinction on their ballot because it is the highest grossing science fiction property of 2014. It did over a billion dollars worth of gross ticket sales, not to mention toys and other tie-ins.
Re: Robert Beale.
Not only tax evasion, obstruction when he had 3 other people hold a “common law court” to convict the federal judge of something or other. I’m clearly too dumb to understand what they were trying to do. So was the judge who added 4 years onto the elder Beale’s sentence.
http://www.taxabletalk.com/tag/beale/
@John Seavey: Although I’m not especially interested in SFWA, I’m mildly interested in the claims of fact about the 2013 expulsion.
According to Theodore Beale’s citation on 2013-08-14 of a letter from SFWA President Steven Gould, the expulsion was carried out under the then-applicable Massachusetts bylaws. In commentary, Theo points out that the Massachusetts General Laws (state legal code), part I, title XXII, chapter 180, section 18 require that public-benefit corporations vet any expulsions by a vote of no less than a majority of no fewer than 3/4 of members participating in that vote. His citation of the statute is accurate. (Recently, SFWA has reincorporated as a California corporation, hence different articles of incorporation and by-laws for the replacement corporation.)
I’m not an attorney, but I did spend about a decade and a half as director of a 501(c)(6) nonprofit corporation, a ‘business league’ (basically, a guild of system administrators) called BayLISA. During one notable occasion of bizarre chaos on the Board of Directors, the a director, and then also the then-President attempted to disregard the by-laws and state law. Even though these attempts at chicanery were in the end unimplemented, my point is that such bodies do occasionally go off the reservation, and that is precisely why they are constrained and regulated by state law, e.g., to make sure that Boards of Directors actually have a mandate from the members on important matters, and not merely claim to.
Thus, absent other facts not immediately apparent (which are invited, e.g., some showing that a poll of SFWA members actually occurred and not just Board action), Theo may be factually correct on that point. (I try to remain a member in good standing of the lastingly unpopular ‘Facts first’ brigade.)
I am not a SFWA member, hence don’t really care in the final analysis. FWIW, my wife Deirdre is a SFWA Associate Member, primarily because she appreciates Victoria Strauss’s work on Writer Beware, the .Emergency Medical Fund, and the Grievance Committee (aka Griefcom) — all of which she considers to be valuable work.
Rick Moen
[email protected]
“But I don’t want to be a pup-pie. I don’t like gravy.”
@Rick: His citation of state law may or may not be accurate, but a) unless he tries to contest it in court, he’s not going to have much luck in getting reinstated, which is why it may have been a significant mistake to do things that resulted in his being unable to enter the United States without getting arrested, let alone a courtroom, b) citing state laws when it benefits you while ignoring federal tax law when it causes you some minor degree of financial hardship while simultaneously claiming you are The Smartest Person in the Room is like trying to sit on a stool with legs that are all different lengths–somewhere, you are bound to fall on your metaphorical butt, and c) if he demanded a vote, I suspect it would take all of about five minutes for him to lose. Whether there is a technical argument to be made for his reinstatement or not, in practical terms he is still utterly refusing to acknowledge reality by handling it the way he has.
Which is, again, my point–Beale has a nasty habit of deciding he is Philosophically Right, and so the failure of reality to conform to his beliefs is purely due to flaws in everyone and everything else.
Rick Moen: Add to all that, however, up til now both parties have been conducting themselves as if the expulsion was effective. A rhetorical question it may be, said Yoda, but at some point the doctrine of laches must kick in.
SFWA claimed to have consulted its own legal counsel before expelling Beale. If I had to bet on which side had a better understanding of the relevant law, I would bet on SFWA.
Beale could force a resolution to the question by trying to do something only SFWA members were allowed do, e.g., vote in the next Nebula election, and then suing when the SFWA administration denied him that privilege of membership. So far, he hasn’t. I wonder why not. It’s most unlike him to shy away from a controversy.
Aaron
Peace Is My Middle Name
I absolutely agree Gabaldon’s work qualifies. Time travel, for frack’s sake!
However, there are certainly people in WSFS who would not consider such books Hugo worthy, regardless if they were well written or full of time travel, and would vote them low on their ballots or even below No Award.
Not swaths of them, but they’re there. Just as there are small segments of WSFS who don’t think the fanzine award should go to anything other than zines printed on paper and distributed through the mail.
WSFS is a big tent (and getting bigger). It’s got all sorts.
The reason more Urban Fantasy, Paranormal Romance and SF/F with romantic plots have barely made it onto the final ballots is the same reason the Puppies complain about books they like not making it. Flint nailed it. Those sorts of books aren’t the sorts of books Hugo nominators think are Hugo books. And if they get on the short list sans slates, some folks will have vein-throbbing moments.
If the Puppies had talked up the worth of their favorite subgenres and rah-rahed to get more fans of those subgenres involved in WorldCon, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But nooooo.
But this is exactly what fans of more inclusive fiction did. They talked up great books they liked on their blogs and to their friends, raised the awareness of those books with the WSFS crowd, and raised awareness of WSFS with fans of those sorts of books. And we saw the fruits of that the past few years (and the ugly backlash last year and this year).
If Paranormal Romance, Urban Fantasy, et al, fans do the same, more power to them.
Oh, the year was two thousand and fifteen, how I wish I was in Sasquan now!
A slateful of noms came from VD,
With the puppiest works I’d ever seen,
God damn them all!
I was told we’d cruise the con for rockets of gold
We’d fire no guns-shed no tears
Now I’m a broken man on a Castalia House pier
The last of Puppy Privateers.
Oh, Vox and Brad they cried the town, how I wish I was in Sasquan now!
For slate-voting men and gamergate too
Would make for them the Puppy Boat crew
God damn them all!
ULTRAGOTHA: I don’t know whether she remains in contact these days, but in the early 1990s Diana Gabaldon hung out with other sf writers in one of the Compuserve forums.
Honestly, I think from the beginning many people considered her outside the field primarily because of the magnitude of her success. It can’t be genre if it’s selling that many books.
And if they get on the short list sans slates, some folks will have vein-throbbing moments.
I suspect that most of those who would have vein-throbbing episodes would be Puppy promoters. Most of the authors and fans on the other side probably would view them much the same way they’ve viewed things like the October Daye stories that have been on the ballot.
Mike –
Yeah, well now we have GRR Martin and SF/F is mainstream. Their minds might have changed on that point but there’s still the UF/PR/Romance cootie factor. Not widespread, I agree, but there.
Aaron –
And now we’re back to the original comment. I think most folks agree the Puppies would have Paroxysms. I’m just stating they won’t be the only ones.
The large majority of WSFS would probably be just fine with it all.
ULTRAGOTHA: The “Romance cootie factor” is something to think about. Had there never been the success of SP3, a Gabaldon nomination would have been a shock. Now it would seem like a friendly takeover.
There might be a few, but frankly, I have never found anyone who didn’t come away smiling from Mary Janice Davidson’s books once they gave them an open shot. 🙂
Mike, we could probably nominate Gor books at this point and look at it as a friendly takeover.
I’ll come out and say it: The Hugo awards are biased. There is a bias towards writers and artists who are perceived as established parts of the Worldcon community. It’s not a purposeful attempt to award insiders, or exclude outsiders. It is a reflection of a group of the fact that Worldcon is a community, with both the esprit de corps and insularness that entails. The other biases, perceived or otherwise, are reflections of that.
John Seavey: Hmm. I see she wasn’t fond of Ex Machina.
“section 18 require that public-benefit corporations vet any expulsions by a vote of no less than a majority of no fewer than 3/4 of members participating in that vote.”
if the board members were the only members of the organization that participated in the vote, and they voted unanimously, doesn’t that satisfy the requirements of a majority of no fewer than 3/4 of members participating in the vote?
I wouldn’t mind Gabaldon being on the ballot. I probably wouldn’t vote for it, but then, I found Outlander to be boring as heck. There wasn’t much in the way of conflict.
Besides the issues regarding the law in force on SFWA of Massachusetts (a 501(c)(6) business league), a fairly important point is that that organization no longer exists. There is now the SFWA of California (a 501(c)(3) literary society), which has the same name and as far as know to which SFWA/MA transferred all its assets. Beale can claim to be a member of SFWA/MA until he turns blue in the face, but it’s moot — the organization doesn’t exist anymore.
Although from my discussions of of the reincorporation plans with Mary Robinette Kowal (with whom we shared an amusing discussion on the ins and outs of 501(c)(6) orgs over dinner once; I used to run a non-fannish 501(c)(6) corporation as my Day Jobbe), I doubt it was the main purpose, but one effect of the reincorporation of SFWA as a California public benefit corporation was similar to the story about the private club who had a member who was accused of cheating at cards: instead of going to the mess and bother of expelling him, everyone else resigned and formed a new club to which they didn’t invite the offending person.
alexvdl: Continue your deep dive into the Massachusetts statutes and find what is meant by “members.” The impression gained from my own reading is that the answer to your question is no.
Kevin Standlee: I will bet there are others who paid Lifetime Dues whose memberships are still being honored by the “new” SFWA of California. That argument will probably fail.
Sad puppy lies over the Hugos
Sad puppy took all nominees!
Sad puppy lies over the Hugos
Oh, bring back my Hugos to me…
The reason I mentioned Gabaldon’s latest book (Written In My Own Heart’s Blood) is the wonderful section were one of the characters is trying to come up with a theory of why and how time travel through stone circles works.
They KNOW it does, because they’ve done it, but doing something and knowing why/how it works are two different things.
And Diana Gabaldon just happens to be friends with George R. R. Martin…
To Kevin Standlee’s point: reincorporation is also what finally allowed DragonCon to divorce themselves from Ed Kramer. (See? Beale can’t even be the most despised person in science fiction, no matter what the Wall Street Journal says.)
Glenn Hauman: Dragon*Con’s reincorporation was really in the nature of a legal maneuver. It did not genuinely extinguish Kramer’s interest in the going concern, however, the combined pressure brought to bear by taking that position and the imminent start of Kramer’s trial compelled Kramer to make a settlement (terms undisclosed) a few months later which DID terminate his interest without further litigation.
@alexvdl: A Massachusetts public benefit corporation may be defined to not have members at all (only directors), or it may be defined to have one or more class of member. The General Laws distinguish members from directors (see, e.g., link), so your speculation of the members being synonymous with the directors (Board members) does not apply in this context.
Kevin is of course correct in pointing out that SFWA’s Massachusetts corporation was dissolved and wound up and replaced by the California one (a fact I also mentioned in passing). Statute law regulating such voluntary dissolutions of charitable corporations is also online.
The California corporation formed in 2014 has, as I mentioned, new by-laws (and articles of incorporation. For reference, it’s California corporation (entity number) C3542299. Application to form that corporation was filed 2013-01-30, and it’s in good standing. I would guess that valid membership in the the MA corporation was carried forward to the CA one, which means an aggrieved member alleging he/she hadn’t been validly expelled might make an issue of that, but certainly that would be a tort claim: Wise people attempt to not be a party to litigation if reasonably possible, as it tends to eat one’s life for periods of years.
(I got really good at using the California Secretary of State’s corporations office records while I was a Board member for BayLISA, as I kept finding that the accountants who’d committed to file required reports with the Secretary of State, Franchise Tax Board, and IRS kept failing to do so, resulting in the corporation twice getting suspended by the state. Board of Directors anxiety over my discovery of this screw-up is what led to the 2005 blow-up and misbehaviour by Board members.)
Rick Moen
[email protected]
Re: VD vs. SFWA –
If nothing else, Beale’s membership terminated sometime in 2013 or 2014, when he did not pay his dues to renew for another year. Everything else about the issue is irrelevant. I mean, we could speculate about whether his expulsion was legally legitimate, but they handed him his hat and he walked away. He did not participate for the remainder of his “paid up” term, he did not renew afterward, and thus he has no claim on current membership.
alexvdl: If I understand your comment, then I believe you’re misreading the statute. I take it as “no less than a majority” and “no fewer than 3/4ths of the members” are separate clauses. I.e., the statue requires no fewer than 3/4ths of the members of the group to participate in order to make up a quorum, and then the majority of that quorum rules.
If it were just “3/4ths of the people voting”, then four members could band together and kick everyone else out. On top of that, saying “a majority of 3/4ths” would be clumsy wording if they just mean a 75% vote.
@Happyturtle https://file770.com/?p=22527&cpage=5#comment-262286
Rev. Bob,
Beale bought lifetime membership status. That was actually the basis on which he hwas going to sue, back when he made such threats.
Disclaimer, personally I do not like the use of the term of “SJW” – but anyhow, there are lyrics twisted to match this Hugo thingy.
Ozpuppyus
And on the Hugo base these words appear:
‘My name is Vox Day, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Fandom, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal ego, boundless and bare
The pups and Worldcon fans shrink far away.
Since Will only tried the first line . . .
PUPPY, puppy, foaming white
like Theo Beale or John C. Wright,
What rhetorical word or lie
Could frame thy fearful syllogy?
When the CHORFS throw down their spears,
And water Wiscon with their tears,
Will You smile Your work to see?
Will He who makes the slate, slate thee?
(I know “syllogy” isn’t a word, but it sounds so much better than “syllogisms.”)
Oh good. Tuomas is back.
Tuomas, feel free to reply to this https://file770.com/?p=22515&cpage=10#comment-262224
@John Seavey: Rick: His citation of state law may or may not be accurate.
There is no legitimate dispute. You can read it for yourself.
Yes, that is in the large category of tort claims that would, if one cared, require conducting civil litigation. I’ve survived to a ripe old age and managed to not ever be involved in litigation in any capacity (except as a nominal co-plaintiff in my mother and the other widows’ lawsuit against Boeing Company, when I was a child suddenly shy one parent in ’68), and count myself some combination of lucky and appropriately cautious. (Watching one’s mother beat up a Fortune 50 corporation in Federal court has some morbid interest, but on balance I cannot recommend the experience.)
it may have been a significant mistake to do things that resulted in his being unable to enter the United States without getting arrested, let alone a courtroom
Although alleged true of Theodore Beale, this lacks any obvious relevance to theoretical civil litigation, as — I hope you’re aware — such does not require the plaintiff to be physically present. Often, the plaintiff never shows up at all, only plaintiff’s counsel. Or is there some requirement for physical presence that I’m missing?
citing state laws when it benefits you while ignoring federal tax law when it causes you some minor degree of financial hardship while simultaneously claiming you are The Smartest Person in the Room is like trying to sit on a stool with legs that are all different lengths
I hope you won’t take this the wrong way, but the above doesn’t appear to actually say anything specific. Again, no real relevance to the point discussed.
if he demanded a vote, I suspect it would take all of about five minutes for him to lose
That is possible, but you seem to be talking frantically all around my point that Theodore Beale appears to have spoken correctly on the point I cited, and people keep going around claiming he didn’t. As I said, I tend to adhere to the highly unpopular position of ‘Facts first.’
It would be nice if commentators would cease deciding that other people were factually incorrect for no better apparent reason than one’s personal dislike of those other people and/or their actions. This pattern comes across as, frankly, more than a bit immature, and I think SFF deserves a lot better than that.
Rick Moen
[email protected]
Mike Glyer said: “Hmm. I see she wasn’t fond of Ex Machina.”
I’m willing to assume her tongue was at least slightly in cheek, since she specified her issues were that it was too intelligent and there weren’t enough explosions. 🙂
As to Beale and the SFWA, again, my point is that regardless of any technical issues with the act of expulsion, in practical terms he has no recourse to contest it because of the whole “never returning to the US and apparently contesting the right of the United States government to apply its laws to him.” Which gets back to the main issue, that of Beale believing that he can override consensus reality simply by deeming himself smarter than it.
@dave: Somewhere, William Blake is smiling, tygerishly.
Alexandra Erin: Your explanation of the purpose and effect of the statute looks right to me, too.
@alexvdl https://file770.com/?p=22527&cpage=7#comment-262478
Noted. Typing a reply.
When ballot-stuffing duty’s to be done (to be done)
A puppy’s lot is not an ‘appy one (‘appy one.)
His father tried to override consensual reality and received an extra four years in a federal prison for his troubles. I believe VD is demonstrably smarter then that, and just wants a reason to take pot-shots at SFWA and other members of the ‘SJW’ establishment.
@alexvdl: “Beale bought lifetime membership status.”
Ah, I’d missed that.
Remarkably short-sighted of him, no?
@dave — that is a thing of loveliness. “Syllogy” really fits there…feels old and original. I think Mr. Blake would have approved.
@dave “Did he who made the league, make thee?”
@Nigel: Oh great, now you have my mind stuck trying to recast the Nightmare Song from Iolanthe. Bad mind, no biscuit!
(Who’d have thought that Gilbert’s reference to Rothschild and Barings would come to sound dated?)
Oh great. Tuomas Vainio, the person with no time to read any of the SFF under discussion but who wants to argue about it, endlessly, anyway is back.
Mr. Vainio, do you still maintain that anyone can be rid of an internet stalker with a simple day or two’s effort? ( https://file770.com/?p=22508&cpage=1#comment-261348 )
“Tuomas Vainio, the person with no time to read any of the SFF under discussion but who wants to argue about it, endlessly, anyway is back.”
He’s like a bull in a china shop IN SPACE!
And I think I’ve posted a reply to that long post you reposted somethwere, Mrs. Middle name Peace.
As for bulls in china stores, as long as the shelves are placed spaciously enough, there should not be a reason for worry as long as the bulls are not provoked. That is of course on the surface of the planet. As for in space… I guess the question is… does the shop have gravity in space?
Will on May 15, 2015 at 1:55 pm said:
@dave — that is a thing of loveliness. “Syllogy” really fits there…feels old and original. I think Mr. Blake would have approved.
I agree. It’s a fine neologism.
Tuomas Vainio on May 15, 2015 at 2:22 pm said:
And I think I’ve posted a reply to that long post you reposted somethwere, Mrs. Middle name Peace.
As for bulls in china stores, as long as the shelves are placed spaciously enough, there should not be a reason for worry as long as the bulls are not provoked. That is of course on the surface of the planet. As for in space… I guess the question is… does the shop have gravity in space?
I beg your pardon. Where did you get the idea I was a Mrs.?